sagz4Christ

What definition of eternal life did I give? If I may quote from myself: I believe this is what you were refering to. I don't understand how you got to your conclusion based upon what I said. Unless you are talking about something else. Of course eternal life has no beginning or ending! I never said otherwise. And you are right. Our possession of eternal life is not eternal....until we put on the righteousness of Christ. . There is but one marriage in the Bible that this could be speaking of--the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. And notice that a real Christian made it all the way to this Supper and was lacking something and was cast into hell. What are these wedding garments that God is speaking of? This is the marriage the parable is in fact talking about. But where does it say this man is a real Christian? Does not the parable say that the servants gathered the good with the bad? Man cannot come to God with his own righteousness for it is concidered as filthy rags to God. We MUST cloth ourselves with the Righteousness of God which is imputed to us through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ! While we are speaking of salvation through faith, let me say this again because I think you misunderstood what I was talking about. Either that, or you are trying to twist my words around and I very much doubt that is happening here....so back to Ephesians 2:8-9 The faith spoken of in this context cannot be attributed to man. It is not in man to believe in God through faith. That kind of saving faith has to be given to us by God. It is said best here: Am I reading this right? If we don't have enough good works we will be cast into hell? Sagz, I would like your intrepretation of this passage please. From the same book as my last quote. I fully understand that you believe there is security in Christ. I fully agree with you. I fully agree that we need to accept Him through faith. Where we differ though is WHERE that faith comes from. You say it comes from ourselves. Ephesians, Phillipians and John clearly say that the faith required of us unto salvation is a GIFT FROM GOD!! So we have at least (and by no means limited to) three gifts from God pertaining to salvation. 1. Salvation itself. 2. Grace 3. Faith You don't have to say you disagree with me on this because I said it first! So there! ~*~na-na!~*~ :x: I believe deeply that this is taught in the Bible. This is what I personally think. I think (and am probably wrong) that you say that everyone who professes to be a believer in Christ is a true believer. If that is the case, I can see your concern for the doctrine of eternal security. Unconditional as it is. I happen to be of the mind that not everyone IS a TRUE Christian and that at the judgment seat, there will be ALOT of upset and whailing ministers, evangelists, and self-professed prophets on their way down south! I also see you taking an incredibly rigid and literal interpretation of Scripture. Admitedly, you are much more versed in it and a great deal more eloquent with words and the tactics of debate, but to me, that doesn't make you any more right than I am. I am not going to refute every Scripture you add to your argument. Suffice to say that I will probably disagree on your interpretation. You said that God provides the grace, and we provide the faith. I disagree. According to Ephesians, the faith is provided by God as well. In the passage in Revelations you quoted, I saw no reference to saints taking the mark of the beast. And even if I pretend that a professing Christian DID take the mark, then there could be no way that that persons regeneration was ever there! The Unconditional Eternal Security is not for unbelievers. It is not for self professing Christians that THINK based on works or some other set of rules or regulations they have an inheratence in the kingdom of God. It is for the HONEST-TO-GOODNESS-BONAFIDE-BOUGHT-WITH-THE-BLOOD-OF-CHRIST-NOT-GOING-DOWN-WITHOUT-A-FIGHT SAINTS. Finally, as to your sensative question on where my faith is resting. I can answer from a true heart and clear conscience that; my faith has found a resting place not in device or creed. I trust the Ever Living One - His wounds for me shall plead I need no other argument I need no other plea It is enough that Jesus died and that He died for me. Enough for me that Jesus died this ends my fear and doubt A sinful soul I come to Him He'll NEVER cast me out CHORUS My heart is leaning on the Word The written Word of God Salvation by my Saviors name Salvation through His blood CHORUS My great Physician heals the sick The lost He came to save For me His precious blood He shed For me His life He gave CHORUS My faith is in Christ, His Blood, and His promise that He will NEVER cast me out. yours in Christ; ~Sagz

I realize that, I was writting that post as you were adding yours! Just so you know, they didn't go un-noticed and I intend to answer them fully when I have time. (My fiancee' just arrived and I gotta spend time with her.) You know...bible study and praying and what not.... I am interested in responding to your questions and adding my insight as well. be blessed ~sagz

I will attempt an answer that is sure to be challenged: These verse lay at theart of the warning against apostasy. It applies to a class of people whom it is impossible to restore again to repentance. Apparently these people had once repented (though no mention is made of their faith in Christ). Now it is clearly stated that a renewed repentance is impossible. Who are these people? The answer is given in verses 4 and 5; Verse 4; In examining the great privilages which they enjoyed, it should be noted that all these things could be true of the unsaved. It is never clearly stated that they had been born again. Neither is any mention made of such essentials as saving faith, redemption by His blood or eternal life. They had once been enlightened. They had heard the gospel of the grace of God. They were not in darkness concerning the way of salvation. Judas Iscariot had been enlightened but he rejected the light. They tasted the heavenly gift. The Lord Jesus is the heavenly Gift. They had tasted of Him, but had never recieved Him by a definite act of faith. It is possible to taste without eating or drinking. (Jesus with the wine dipped in gall (Matt. 27:34). It is not enough to taste Christ; unless we eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, that is, unless we truly receive Him as Lord and Savior, we have no life in us (John 6:53). They had become partakers of the Holy Spirit. Before we jump to the conclusion that this necessarily implies conversion, we should remember that the Holy Spirit carries on a preconversion ministry in men's lives. He sanctifies unbelievers (1 Cor. 7:14), putting them in a position of external privilege. He convicts unbelievers of sin, of unrighteousness and of judgment (John 16:8). He leads men to repentance and points them to Christ as their only hope. Men may thus partake of the Holy Spirit's benefits without being indwelt by Him. Verse 5 They had tasted the good word of God. As they heard the gospel preached, they were strangely moved and drawn to it. They were like the seed that fell on rocky ground; they heard the word and immediately recieved it with joy, but they had no root in themselves. They endured for a while, but when tribulation or persecution arose, they promptly fell away (Matt. 13:20,21). They had tasted the powers of the age to come. Powers here means "miracles." The age to come is the Millennial Age, the coming era of peace and prosperity when Christ will riegn over the earth for 1,000 years. The miracles which accompanied the preaching of the gospel in the early days of the church (Heb. 2:4) were a foretaste of signs and wonders which will be performed in Christ's kingdom. These people had witnessed these miracles in the first century, in fact, they might have participated in them! Take, for instance, the miracles of the loaves and fishes. After Jesus had fed the five thousand, the people followed Him to the other side of the sea. The Savior realized that, though they had tasted a miracle, they did not really believe in Him. He said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled" (John 6:26). Verse 6 If they fall away, after enjoying the privilages stated above, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance. They have committed the sin of apostasy. They have reached the place where the lights go out on the way to hell. The enormous guilt of apostates is indicated in the wrods since they crusify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame. This signifies a deliberate, a malicious spurning of Christ, not just a careless disregard of Him. It indicates a positive betrayal of Him, a joining of forces against Him and a ridiculing of His Person and work. Next post....APOSTASY....but it will be a few hours before I can get to it.. (fiancee' just arrived!!!!)................GOTTA GO!!!!!!! your servant in Christ; ~sagz

I will give you a personal insight. It is what is happening in my family right now. I have 3 brothers. Two are living with my parents and myself right now. One is a Senior in Hight School, and the other is about to turn 20. It is this one I will call.....Steven that I will be talking about. Mind you, this is personal and still very fresh in my mind, but it helps illustrate (in fleshly terms) what God-man is talking about. Steven is not a professing Christian. The rest of my family (immediate) is. As a point of fact, Steven sees himself as an antiChrist. Not THE antiChrist, but one like him. I do not know how he came to this conclusion....it might stem from the fact that he suffers from severe ADHD. It could also be that he got into drugs for awhile. I do know that whatever it is, it has caused him to feel alienated from the family group. My first question is was he really alienated? Or is it just in his head? If he comes back and starts hanging out with us, or if he even comes up and asks for forgiveness he will see that he is forgiven...and rightly so, but more importantly he will understand that we never stopped loving him. We never even tried to disown him. It was all in his head. Currently, he is under a sort of "House arrest" imposed by our father for some things that stacked up heavily against him. 1, he was caught aiding a friend in a theft of a Nintendo GameBoy game. The prosecutor allowed a way out of going to trial and both teenagers took it. It amounts to a type of probation for a period of time. 2, our father found out while researching this case for Steven, that Steven got a ticket for wreckless driving. 3, he was caught renting vulgar movies and bringing them into our house. (Steven left one of these movies under the couch and was found during a routine search for the remote control! ( :blush: yes, we have a few of those things!) This caused my father no end of grief. So much so he called me at my fiancee's house and asked that I come home so he could talk to me about it. He wanted ME (his son) to give advice on how to handle his other son (my brother). He eventually "grounded" Steven and is currently only allowing him to drive to work and come straight home. He also gave Steven two final steps...the next time he gets into serious trouble, he will lose driving privialges and will be driven to and from work. After that, he is on his own. In all this, the love my father has for my brother is evedent. Steven's actions are deserving of punishment, and rightly so. He is not living by my father's rules. Does this mean that my father loves Steven less? Does it mean that he is considering disowning him? "MAY IT NEVER BE!" He is simply trying to show Steven the utter failure of his "sin". The final step...being kicked out of the house does not even reveal a hatred on my fathers behalf. Steven is STILL my father's son. He is STILL going to share in the inheretance, though admittedly, it may be less than it should! All that is required of Steven to be restored fully to my father is asking forgivness. Truth be known, my father still lets him go visit his girlfriend every now and again. You see the softness with which my father is trying to show his mercy and love with? The rule is drive to work, drive home. But yet, because of his love for Steven, he allows him to visit his girlfriend and friends once in awhile. Still a son...still has an inheritance... Is there a parallel? You bet. As to your question: Can a professing Christian be saved AND involved in ongoing sin? This is a loaded question and almost seems to be begging contradiction. I am positive you didn't mean it this way, so I am going to ask you to clarify a few things for me, ok? Is this ongoing sin wilfull? Is it something the Christian is in bondage to? If it is a wilfull sin, and the person shows no remorse about it, then I would question if they are TRULY saved, or if they are just giving "lip service" to Christ as it were. If that is the case, then they can't be saved and therefore they are able to continue in sin without feeling guilty. If this sin is something that has a bondage over the Christian, and they are trying desperately to break free from it, then they are secure and only need to repent, give the sin to Christ and ask Him to break them free from the bondage...it sounds easy unless you are trapped in a sin. Let us not forget that as regenerated believers, we are no longer slaves to unrighteousness, but slaves to righteousness. We no longer crave the desires of the flesh, for the Holy Spirit not only convicts our spirit, but our spirit concurs with Him that the flesh is evil and it's desires lead to death. How could a TRUE believer sin and think nothing of it? it can't happen! Does this help clear things up? Scripture to follow..... yours in Christ; ~sagz

I do confess to being rather wordy. I will learn though how to say little and still get my point across...*sigh* Very good point God-man! Sagz

you are most welcome!! :t:

Wonderful topic. If you don't mind a guy that can't think straight and has an even harder time putting thoughts on paper....or computer screen :blush: I would like to join this topic as well! Sin. It is a very broad topic. It covers a WHOLE lot of areas. And we could actually get lost in it as we did in the other topic for awhile! ANYWAY, I digress..... Sin, as it pertains to Salvation...by sagz...a thesis...heheh not really...it just sounded good Seriously though... We really need to understand the all encompassing aspect of sin...how God feels about it. We also need to understand the weight of it on our souls and in our lives. I am not an orator, and I do not profess to having any knowledge worthy of teaching anyone else. Most of my posts are taken from serious study of 1)Scripture, 2) Prayer and 3)Bible Scholars I run across on the web. Mostly from Studylight.org, but some from books I have picked up along the way. Let us look at sin. Point blank let us see what it is, what it does, and where it comes from. I take this from Easton's Bible Dictionary. This will be a large chuck to digest right now, so I will leave it at this and see where the discussion goes from there. I make no attepmt to answer all the quetsions originally asked at the beginning in this post. I am breaking it down to common denominators. Starting with: SIN Well...take your time...and be sure to take into account these are not my words! Let us see what is said and how we view it. humbly yours in Christ; ~sagz

I don't recall anyone saying that salvation could be viewed as a legal transaction. As a point of fact, I am trying to argue that salvatioin has nothing to do with legalism. It is the ultimate working out/ pouring out of God's (agape/unconditional) love for us when we realize our utter failure to be able to do anything to merit His favor on us. Christ did all that when He came to earth. There is no reason to go back to it again. If we do, then as Paul says, we crucify Him again and His work on the cross no longer has any power in our lives. This is the WHOLE argument in Galatians. bear with me on this one. What does the bible say about salvation? I looked up Torry'es Topical Textbook to help me with this one. A rather long list. If you would like to see the whole list, (I cut a good portion out, like the one about MINISTERS, you can go here to view it in it's entirety: Torrey's Topical Textbook: Salvation Well, from the looks of things, we have a pretty strong case for the ETERNAL security of the TRUE believer. I wonder if anyone is going to pick up on the few verses that seem to lend weight to conditional security? I point this out in love. Because it seems to me that alot of us(and this includes me more than you think) want to desperately ascribe human behaviors and attitudes to God. This is a mistake that leads to arguments like this. True, salvation IS a relationship. And it must even be entered into under God's conditions, which include repentance and faith. This relationship must also be entered into voluntarily. Have you ever heard of a TRUE Christian that was coerced into believing that Jesus died for them? I ask you is that really a true regenerated person? I would argue against it. It is maintained BY GOD though....theough His long-suffering and mercy toward us. We will all agree that it is throgh Christ alone. Where we start to drift though is after that. What happens to grace after our salvation? It is still being and continues to be lavished upon us! Scripture speaks plainly (and in parables) about this subject. Refer to the list above. Salvation is not by works, period. It is of grace, period. It is of love, period. It is of mercy, period. It is of the long-suffering of God, period. It is through faith in Christ, period. Where does it say that the heavens ascribed salvation to God and man? It doesn't. They (the heavenly hosts) ascribe it to God, period. What reason would God have to be long-suffering if we were to affect our salvation in ANY way? He wouldn't be. He couldn't be. I like the way God-Man said it best: It is also noteworthy to pay attention to where it says the saints (these are TRUE believers) are kept by the power of God to salvation. I would like to add, period! Please understand, I am not trying to make it seem people are ignorant about such things. I do not in the least think of myself as an informed or enlightened saint that was spoken to by God to give this message. I do not even want to give the impression that I an calling down hellfire and brimstone on those that want to believe in conditional security. I am just trying to show that it might be less than the solid doctrine that the Bible teaches about salvation. I am trying to do it in love....love...LOVE. When I get excited in a happy/intense way, over these electronic lines, my body language doesn't come through so it may seem like I am ranting and raving. This is not my intended attitude. Again, godrulz, endure, I love you both. And if it helps, I was raised in a family that LOVED to debate. Often, someone would take an opposing view for the sake of the debate. I am not suggesting I am doing this. I am in fact arguing from what I believe is the correct position from Scripture. The glory still belongs to Christ. All honor and praise are to be delivered to Him. And come the day of our meeting Him face to face, we will not (probably) have cared too much that we had this INTENSE discussion. For in the presence of a holy God, who can stand? He is our ALL. He is our EVERYTHING! And I will PRAISE HIS NAME!!! A-men. your humble servant ~Sagz

LOL...I am again humbled and shown ignorrant of the truely mysterious aspects of our Lord. I thought you might have something to say about what I explained, but I couldn't put my finger on it. Thank you for clearing things up a bit. I have some rearranging of my thoughts on the Trinity to do now..so I bid you peace and blessings in the name of our Lord Christ Jesus! humbled by His Blood; ~Sagz

I go back and forth with that one God-man.... On the one hand, I can see the love thses people have for the Lord. I can see them honestly searching for the truth. On the other hand, I read Galatians and get the sense that Paul was writting a scathing letter against faith + works. I mean, that letter was BRUTAL to the Galatians who were trying to sanctify themselves by their own hand! Personally, I would HATE to have been a Galatian and read that letter! It is the same with this. Faith alone...or faith + my working to keep my selvation. You see, if there is ANYTHING put beside faith that has to do with man, then it isn't faith...it is relying on our own merit....it is taking away from what Christ did on the cross. Of course, it is equally true that the subject of GRACE is perhaps the most difficult to understand and grasp. It has no doubt been the single most leading doctrine that has caused more men hungry for God to stumble than any other doctrine. It is so difficult because it is so vulnerable to abuse. Like I said...I keep going back and forth with it. One day, I tell myself it doesn't matter...the next I gloss through my Galatians mind set... I give it up to Christ! by His Blood; ~Sagz

Ok......I am going to attempt to say out of love what is so deeply weighing on my mind. Everyone that has read this thread knows how I feel about this argument/discussion. But since the last time I posted, I have been in very deep prayer....almost to the point of not being able to do my job at work because this is all I think about most of the time. If it isn't this topic, then it is about mmy upcoming marriage. I have prayed that God would prove me wrong so I could apologize to everyone here for misquoting the Word of God and finally be restored to fellowship with my fellow Christians. .....to date...no such luck...so I am going to do something different. I am going to PRETEND that conditional security is the correct biblical doctrine. First, let us get a few things out in the open. 1. The Bible (Scripture) is inspired by God (2 Tim. 3:16) 2. The Bible (Scripture) is the INFALLIBLE Word of God. (Proverbs 6:23; 2 Peter 1:19) With these two truths in the open, let us now see if Scripture speaks of conditional security (that which we are pretending is accurate) or the unconditional security of the TRUE believer. For if there a false believer he or she is no believer at all. Let us now look at a few verses that seem to contradict conditional security. For now, they only SEEM to contradict, but I am SURE that there are good explinations as to how these verse can be used to support conditional security. The verse we want to consider are: 1. John 10:28-30 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one." 2. Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 3. 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 But each man must be careful how he builds on it. For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. 4. Phillipians 1:6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. 5. Hebrews 12:1-3 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. Ok. I think that is a good start. How in the WORLD do these verses support this doctrine I am pretending to agree with? Either this doctrine is WRONG, or Scripture is contradicting itself. I don't think there needs to be an in depth study of each word here, they speak pretty plainly. But if you want to discuss further the truths in thses verses, by all means, let us reason together. humbly yours in Christ; ~Sagz

Actually brother, The way in which you asked the question led me to believe it was the same question with different wording. Kinda like calling it a can of Coke as opposed to a Coke can. My answer though should be sufficient for both questions. However, let me explain further: To try to change the name of God the Gather to Jesus the Father is to give the duties that belong to the God the Father to Christ. We see throughout the Scriptures that there are specific roles each one plays in the governing of the universe and in the affairs of man. We need to make sure not to place the roles, and therefore our worship in the wrong context. We pray to God the FATHER through JESUS the Son, by the leading of the HOLY SPIRIT. (caps for emphasis). Our worship is to God the Father through Christ. We also worship Christ as Savior. That is the role and duty of His part in the diety. Yes, they are all the same, but we need to make sure to divide Them where They have shown us. I hope this helps clarify my answer! your servant in Christ; ~Sagz

Dannielle, You just keep loving the Lord and people will notice that! Don't pay any attention to what non-Christians say too much about Christ, they simply don't understand. That is why it is soo important for us to love them as Christ loves them. That is how they start to understand about who Jesus is! Keep pluggin away sister! your servant in Christ; ~Sagz

I don't think you realized you just asked the same exact question twice? refer to the previous answer By His Blood; ~Sagz

I think it is a wonderful thing to dedicate your talents in web design to the Lord's work! I have a site up too, though it is far from complete. I would like very much to see what you have made, but I think you forgot one very small but often overlooked detail........ THE ADDRESS!!!!!!! Pleae give it so we can see what the Lord has done through you! your humble sevant by His Blood; ~Sagz

I think what you are saying is that three strands = God, Christ and the Holy Spirit. You would be correct. Though I would tend to refer to the Spirit as the Holy Spirit. He is also called the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of God/Christ... He is Christ's Spirit, though He is also God's Spirit and He is also His own separate Spirit. Just like we have God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. That is just how I would refer to Him though I don't see a problem with how you do either! :t: your humble servant by His Blood; ~sagz

Simple Faith By Charles R. Swindoll Ok, before I go further, I would like to point you to a place where you can buy this wonderful book. I will keep posting what I am learning from it, but feel it important to urge you all to get this book for yourselves as I don't want to take away from Carles Swindoll his hard earned money. This link will provide a way for you to purchace the book, or you can find it at just about ayn Christian book store in your area. If it isn't there, they can most likely order it for you. Be blessed! Well, we have spoken about getting rid of hypocrisy and performance in our faith. Let us not talk about things we SHOULD be putting into our faith. Thesea re things that are already there, but have been subdued by the other two things. The third of four basic teachings of SIMPLE FAITH: Up with Tolerance! Swindoll sees Christianity as people learning to be "speck specialist". We are a people that can detect a tiny speck in our brother's life, while deliberately ignoring the much larger and uglier and more offensive log in our lives. Then he gets specific to help clarify his statement. When his kids were teenagers, they used to ask him, "Who dies and put you in charge?" We are not our brother's judge. Then he gets even more detailed. (This is where I am convicted HARD-CORE)! He goes on to illustrate a humorous story about being taken advantage of due to a lack of knowledge of a different language. This I will skip as I think the point of the subject has been brought across, and I am not willing to give you every word of the book for the reason stated above. What does this speak to you? I will tell you that my recent debate on this very board has condemned me already. I may yet post again on the subject, but for now, I need to step back and gather myself and my thoughts. It isn't for me to decide what the correct theological position should be, it is on'y for me to love others as my Lord loves me....with agape' love. your humble servant by His Blood; ~sagz

Cats, I have looked up in a few commentaries the verses you gave, and have found the following. This was taken from "John S. C. Abbott and Jacob Abbott Illustrated New Testament". I think the meaning in this passage is to keep Christians from "accepting" and "agreeing" with the unrighteous acts of the nonChristians. I can't think of a better way to say it, save this; as we reach out to the lost and dying, we are to keep ourselves from becoming defiled by their "unclean" acts. For instance, if we are reaching out to drunkards, we are not to go to the bar and sit with them as they get drunk. If we are witnessing to someone steeped in pornography, we are not to sit there and be with them as they are looking at the stuff. Likewise, if we are to witness and reachout to as lost generation that has their minds wrapped up with Harry Potter, we are not to go with them and watch the movie, or if it is worse, we are not to attend any "worship" services they want to attend. We can see this portrayed by our Lord in the next verse you gave: He ate with and extended His love to the "unclean" sinners of His day. He did this without condoning their behavior, and sat with them as they were away from the sin that was theirs. (I mean not in the middle of it). To conclude. we should be concerned that as we reach out to the lost, that we don't defile ourselves or the temple of God (our bodies). It is always a concern and that is why there is ample Scripture to support your concern. What we have to do instead of run away though, is pray. If the Lord put on your heart to witness and reachout to these teenagers, then you had better do it. Pray that God will give you the dicernment needed to witness in Truth to these kids. Pray that He will protect you as you set out in His will for your life. Remember, my sister, the Lord goes before us and makes our way straight! I hope this helps your humble servant by His Blood; ~Sagz

lol....ok then, on the basis of your statement, I shall give the second of four basic teachings found in the sermon Christ gave on the Mount:

I think another way to interpret the Trinity of the God-head is to think of what happens to us humans when we marry. We are individuals before we get married. When we get married, we "become one flesh". This, in God's eyes means that we are one. A single entity. When we pitcure in our minds the image of the "perfect" marriage, we are actually an image of the Trinity for God should be at the head of the marriage. If God is at the head, that is one personality. The husband makes the second personality, and the wife carries the third. All together, they make "one" complete entity, but within that there are three distinct personalities, all working together with one mind and one purpose. This is again a somewhat limiting picture, for in a marriage, God may not be a part of it, and the relationship between all three may not be(and most likely isn't) the perfect union we see in the God-head. As to the Genesis passage, all three people spoke as one. If the two accompanying God were angles, they would not have spoken as if they were. Another thing we have to be aware of is that if the other two were indeed angels, then they also would be worshiping the one that was God. As this didn't happen, we can conclude safely that all three were each member of the God-head. As for the Mark 12 passage, I personally have never heard of it beiing interpreted that way. There IS one God. The statement is true, but I don't think the passage is trying to indicate anything about the Trinity by saying that. The passage of Mark 12 illustrates that for those who sincerely desire to be instructed concerning theri duty, Christ will guide in judgement, and teach His way. The passage actually begins in verse 28 with the scribe asking Christ of the greatest commandment. Christ obliges the scribe by plainly telling him. In reference to your pointed question about "the Lord is One".....Maybe this will help. It is a quote from the book: "Coffman Commentaries on the Old and New Testament": I hope this clears things up a bit. You are correct when you say that you disagree with the teaching that this passage can be interpreted to describe the Trinity. Not all teachers are expounding corrrectly and the ones that are doing it knowingly will ALWAYS put just enough truth in to make it seem plausible....as it sounds like you have found. I commend you for being sensative to the Spirits leading you to search out and study for yourself what that passage really means and for searching about the Trinity. Praise God for HIs faithfullness!!! your humble servant by His Blood; ~Sagz

Amen guys for the encouragement to Hobbie. And a very special AMEN to you Hobbie for having the courage to come to us with your situation. Recently I went through a group study of a book called, "Victory over the Darkness" by Neil Anderson. I would encourage you to pick up a copy. In light of your story, I think it will REALLY help shead light in God's word about this whole thing. But until you get a chance to read this book, I would like to give you some ecouraging words from our Lord about WHO YOU ARE!!! The following is an excert from the book, "Victory over the Darkness": I would say that, along with my brothers and sisters in Christ here, that it is imerrative that you ask God to reveal to you if you are truely His. And if that is the case, (and only you and God can know that) then it would be wise to bath yourself in these verses. Not only these, but the WHOLE Word of God so that your faith may be strengthened and thus allow you to live in the Fullness which is in Christ Jesus!! I am praying for you as will, Hobbie. your humble servant by His Blood; ~Sagz

That is so very true Suzanne! It reminds me of something a very good friend of mine said once. "What I usually do when I am undecided about something I am debating, like reading Scripture or taking a walk, I usually do the opposite of what I want. If I am really tired, but then I remember that I need to do my quite time, then I grab my Bible, sit down and commune with the Lord, for I have learned that He will lead me if I just trust and obey." That is a very weak quotation of what he said, because as I was writting it, I forgot exactly how he said it, but it boils down to him bypassing his human instinct and following the will of God in his life. I wonder how much more simplistic our faith would be if we just did what Jesus taught? your servant by His Blood; ~Sagz

Well, I don't really know the Jewish side of the argument, but I also don't agree completely with yours either, though in an elementary sense, I suppose I can see the correlation of the three. It is stated plainly in Scripture that there are three distinct personalities in the God-head. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. I really don't consider them part of the same BODY as you have described. They are all One, in that they are the same person. Consider the following section of Scripture: We see that it is in three very sepereate bodies that the Lord had visited Abraham. We know it is God because Abraham fell down and "bowed himself to the ground". When we see instances of people bowing before angels, we also notice a quick admonision to stop, for they are not God. We don't see this here, so we must conclude the people Abraham is bowing before is the ONE true Lord/God. I often find it hard to illustrate the seperateness of the God-head bodily for the fact that my mind (as human as it is) cannot grasp the concept. It was explained to me this way: A cow has a body but no spirit. A man has a body and one spirit. Why cannot God one body and three Spirits? Though this doesn't explain fully the God-Man Jesus Christ, it kind of helps to understand the complexity of the question posed. I hope I shed some light on this for you your servant by His Blood; ~Sagz