Arial

Cats are a lot like people. They only do what it right and good when they feel like it.

In some sense all doctrines are opinions but some opinions are also the truth as presented by God, through study of God, and some are not. Some are opinions formed by opinions. And of course all our doctrines and opinions should grow and adjust as we study God from the Bible, and grow in our knowledge of Him. But He must remain consistent as self revealed all the way through the scriptures as we form our doctrines. We tend to form opinions of what an isolated scripture or scriptures is saying. What we think it is saying rather than what God is saying. And we often do not check the follow through of what we think it is saying----(an if this is so what does this mean about God in conclusion sort of scenario) to see if it contradicts Him or anything else. And none of us do this all the time. Learning about God is actually a labor intensive process of dedication that has no end, at least as long as we are here. And few have the time or the training or the example, or unfortunately the desire to engage in it. Me included. So I thank God for the resources of others who saw this as their life's work and highest pursuit. Often by lamplight, with pen and ink, and the Bible as their only resource. Thank God for the work of Jesus and the apostles and all the writers of the OT where we can go to double check what we read and hear. Few today if any, match the work and diligence and integrity in this work as the reformers, those who preceded them, and followed in their footsteps. One has only to read the works of Luther, Calvin's Institute of the Christian Religion, the writings and history of John Knox, and other writings of this era and for awhile after to see the difference in their methods of theology that produced the doctrines of the Protestant church---regardless of how one feels about some aspects of it.

Exactly.

This isn't a thread about Calvin. It isn't even about one theology over another, or one set of doctrines over against others. It is about the difference between theology and doctrine. Doctrines are often called theologies with no actual theology done by the person who fails to make the distinction. IOW they will come against one doctrine or another without weighing it against the theology behind it. Also theology is given a definition of the word without saying what it is in Christianity. Much like defining grace as though the definition is what grace is and does. Or love. The doctrines of historic traditional Protestantism are drawn from a systematic study of God and by extension Jesus, from both testaments. Not according to what we want God to be or what we think He is and does, but from His self revelation. It is done by a study of the whole counsel of God, being always consistent with itself and integrated, never violating or changing what He says about Himself. By studying the Bible according to the genre in which book or passage is written. Without adding anything to His word or taking anything away. Some doctrines are opinions in matters where the Bible is not clear, such as the details of end times. That would need to be consistent with He has not returned yet, He will return etc. but the details can be seen through a number of interpretive methods. People can even disagree in the matter of predestination and free will as long as what must be believed for eternal life remains the same. However, even there one view is right according to God and one is not.

Many consider their opinions to be sound doctrine. It is pretty much the nature of the beast. But on what do you base the statement you gave of Calvin and TULIP? Might it be your opinion of what it teaches, and that based on the twisting of a verse and meaning to be what you most like? Before one makes such a statement it would be wise to have something besides their opinion as a support. For instance one could do a study (wouldn't have to be extensive given all the information at our fingertips, but the deeper the better informed one is, of the history of the Reformation, why and what it was, what it did for Christ's church that had languished in darkness for years of the dark ages and the tyranny and blasphemy of the Roman church. As well as a study of the fire and spirit of the reformers. People make such casual unmerrited remarks not knowing of what they speak.

Doctrine is often confused for theology and vice versa. What is the difference and why is it important? Doctrine comes out of theology but isn't our theology. Theology as most know is the study of God. This exists in many religions and in a sense in all religions. It exists in those religions that call themselves Christian but are not because they hold some Christian beliefs but not critical core beliefs of Christianity such as the Trinity. Sadly many others have been wiped out of so called Christian churches today, including the virgin birth, the inerrancy of scripture, the sovereignty of God, the fall of man, the omniscience of God. The focus here will be on Christian theology and how it shapes the doctrines. Theology has come to mean whatever a person thinks about what the Bible says about God, and by extension Jesus. In a sense this is true but it is not what theology was historically that arrived at the doctrines of the traditional protestant Christian church. And even in the apostolic era the teachings (doctrines) that laid the foundation of Christ's church were based on and verified by the self revelation of God in the OT---the scriptures they had. All of Christ's teachings were consistent with the self revelation of God in the OT, and His fulfillment of them. So the study of God is studying His word in the OT (for this is where He reveals who He is and what He is doing) as our beginning and foundation to learn what He says about Himself first, and second us in relation to Him and His purposes. What God reveals about Himself is not open to interpretation in the sense that no interpretation that is in opposition to what He means by what He says is correct. Our misinterpretations change Him not. This then will lead to our foundational theology of God into a solid theology of Jesus and salvation as it is revealed in the NT. It is out of this theology that the traditional protestant Christian doctrines were formed and stated within the creeds and catechisms of the Reformation and from which the theology was taught. It consistently also aligns with the apostles teaching. The sure thing is that if we get one point of theology that differs from what God says about Himself, it will ultimately also distort something else in the Bible somewhere along the line and mess with our teaching and our learning. Places where we have a tangle, seeming contradictions, and questions that we can't answer that are actually answered in the scriptures, and divisions among believers and denominations. We can know and believe who Jesus is and be joined to Him through faith without all this theology and in fact many are in this modern era by the mercy of God. For not one of His people will be lost. Up until recently relatively speaking the doctrine was taught, as I said earlier, from and through the doctrines and it was common and began at a person's beginning. God was central for the majority of people, at least compared to now, and of supreme importance as to how they conducted their lives. Even little children heard from the pulpit and at home, who God is as self revealed, and the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior. They were taught theology and its doctrines and they either believed it or they didn't. We learn theology as we grow in grace but we should always check our doctrine by studying God as He reveals Himself to be, including our Christology.

Grace is always unmerited otherwise it wouldn't be grace. And yes it has much more meaning when applied in the scriptures than favor. It would be very difficult to define without in some way lessening it. The scriptures and the grace of God must deepen it for us. The best I can do is that grace is the power and love and purpose of the One who is all grace and owns all grace, supplying His children with what they need, to be conformed to Christ, to grow in Him. It is what He gives to sanctify and bless His people. It is our every need met (not our every want but our every need and He knows what that is far better than we do.) It is a fountain and living water. Christ is full of grace and truth.

Also from Amazing Grace Twas grace that taught my heart to fear, And grace my fears relieved. How precious did that grace appear The hours I first believed. Through many dangers, toils and snares I have already come. "Tis grace hath brought me safe this far. And grace will lead me home.

Yes it is grace that makes us grow. And that comes in the knowledge of our Lord. So often we unknowingly fall into a pattern of thinking our righteousness must come from us. And indeed we do have responsibility in it. In fact probably most of us begin that way, recognizing the obvious outwards sins and hating them, and setting about the business of being rid of them. It is that grace that brought us into Christ and His righteousness that makes this to be so. Grace that lets us see it. And this grace never leaves us, is active in us even when we don't ask for it. Some unrighteousness is easier to let go of than others, some visible, some not, some a struggle, a fight we cannot seem to win. I think that it is in the latter that God is calling us to a deeper relationship with Him. To recognize, that no we cannot do it, we need grace for that. We need grace given for that. Or we need to learn the sufficiency of His grace to keep us through it,for in that we learn of His strength. Also I think that the longer we have been Christian's ---as soon as we think we have a handle of this sin thing, all those things that used to be temptation no longer hold the slightest appeal for us---He begins exposing all those hidden sins of attitude and motive. I.e. we now have no problem treating people nicely, speaking to them or about them with good Christian kindness, while inside we are seething with bitterness and anger at our wounded pride. So we speak in a humble sounding way while our thoughts are anything but humble. A very unpleasant place to be exposed to ourselves, but very necessary if we are to be sanctified in that area unto righteousness. So we recognize just how poor and needy we still are. We recognize that nothing we ourselve do will change that in us. And we cry out for Him to give us that grace to walk in His paths for His glory. Not for ourselves. For His glory. His glory is what it is all about, top to bottom, inside and out. We can even come to a place where we say as David did and mean it, with God's glory in mind, and ask for Him to give us the grace that reveals our hidden sins. Psalm 19 The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. 2 Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they reveal knowledge. 3 They have no speech, they use no words; no sound is heard from them. 4 Yet their voice[b] goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world. In the heavens God has pitched a tent for the sun. 5 It is like a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, like a champion rejoicing to run his course. 6 It rises at one end of the heavens and makes its circuit to the other; nothing is deprived of its warmth. The law of the Lord is perfect, refreshing the soul. The statutes of the Lord are trustworthy, making wise the simple. 8 The precepts of the Lord are right, giving joy to the heart. The commands of the Lord are radiant, giving light to the eyes. 9 The fear of the Lord is pure, enduring forever. The decrees of the Lord are firm, and all of them are righteous. They are more precious than gold, than much pure gold; they are sweeter than honey, than honey from the honeycomb. 11 By them your servant is warned; in keeping them there is great reward. 12 But who can discern their own errors? Forgive my hidden faults. 13 Keep your servant also from willful sins; may they not rule over me. Then I will be blameless, innocent of great transgression. 14 May these words of my mouth and this meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, Lord, my Rock and my Redeemer.

Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need. John 1:16-17 For from His fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 5:10 And the God of all grace who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will Himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast. What does God's grace give after our salvation? To put it in a nutshell, we need His grace for everything, and we need His mercy in all things. The primary purpose of grace, as I have come to see it, is our righteousness in the process of sanctification. It is true that we are judicially declared righteous in Christ. That is the meaning of justification. We can no longer be condemned by the unrighteous things we do. And thank God for that! If it were not so we would still be headed for hell by our own deeds and thoughts, and attitudes. So His grace not only redeems through Christ but it sanctifies us in the sense of increasing actual righteousness in us. It makes it possible for us to pursue righteousness without the certain condemnation of our sins hanging like an ax over our heads. It gives us a desire for the righteousness that is accredited to us. And not by law keeping but by a pursuit of our God. Our submitting ourselves to Him. For it was unrighteousness that was the first issue that separated us from God, and it is righteousness that is the goal, both for man and the corrupted world. It is about the restoration of righteousness to God's kingdom and in His people. And it is not merely an outward display of righteousness, but the entire inner man, our thoughts, and motives examined before God and acknowledged to ourselves and before Him. And given to Him for purifying in us. For this we need grace from Him. We need His grace to even desire righteousness, even to desire to pursue it, for we are indeed strangers and sojourners in this fallen world and still live with our fallen nature. If we have not, it is because we ask not. "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness for they shall be filled." This then may be the grace we most need. To hunger and thirst for righteousness, and our flesh will resist it if not at every turn, at some times and in some ways. But it will resist it. We need to learn when we need that grace and whatever we need it for, and go before the very Fountain of Grace who liberally gives good things to His children, and ask for it. I believe this asking is crucial, not for His benefit, and not as a withholding by Him, but so we know where our spiritual equipping and growth comes from and that we never forget it. So we know, as Adam and Eve knew as we were all created to know, that it is in Him that we live, and move, and have our being. Back to what was lost in the fall.

Look at the lives heroes of faith in the Bible, the lives of even the good kings. Every one of them had places where they ran out of patience in trusting the Lord, and took matters into their own hands. This trust grows as God continues His work in us, not for out glory, but for His.

The struggles with what Luther called the dark night of the soul, even wrote a book on the subject, is related to the times of struggle of the Christian, regardless of the expressions origins or its meanings in that origin. And faith in the context of the OP does not refer to becoming a believer. Given the forum it is assumed that the majority already have that saving faith. Otherwise there would be no dark nights of the soul. It refers to those times when we are shaken by circumstances we cannot understand. Scripture says we grow in faith. Faith to faith. Faith meaning trust in God to be who He says He is and to do what He says He will do. This is something we have to learn, to grow in, and as with all human learning we have setbacks, struggles, times of complacence and disinterest, times when we think we will never get it. In our journey towards the end goal we learn these things that grow our faith from scriptures and working of the Holy Spirit in us through them. And we do not learn things by simply knowing the words of scripture or applying them as mantras. We learn what they are, what God tells us about them, but we do not learn it until it has been put to the test in our lives. How do we learn what it means that grace is sufficient for us, that in our weakness we are made strong unless we experience the weakness? How do we learn to hide in the cleft of the rock unless we have need of being hidden there? How do we learn what that even means or how to do it unless we are shown just how poor and needy we are? These things grow our faith/trust in God, and tend to break one of our greatest enemies from bombarding us from within and spilling forth to those around us. Pride. That thing in us that takes credit for all we have while at the same time thanking God for it. How do we learn in our deepest places that our strength is not our own but is God; how do we lean to simply sit quietly beneath the shadow of His wings while the storms rage around us, and all His waters have come over us unless we come to those places where we know if He does not help then there will be no help? And wait. And trust. We learn of it ("I have heard of you by the hearing of the ear") through His word, but we learn it when we walk through it ("but now I have seen you.") We are not born into the kingdom fully mature. We are born into it as babes in Christ. We grow in maturity and no one ever reaches fullblown maturity until when? When we arrive at this journeys destination. "For now I see through a glass darkly, but then face to face." And then ironically we will filled with the joy and gratitude and humility of little children, unable to take our eyes, not even our hearts, off the glory we behold. Father let not the foot of pride come against us and may we seek your grace for this and for your glory. It is Jesus who is the author of our faith and it is He who will complete this good work in us that He has begun. In this we trust when the well seems dry and the flood waters have come over us.

Though in suffering and trials God rescues us either out of them or through them, when it comes to a crisis of faith; when we feel we have no faith or little faith, even begin to doubt our salvation; when we are broken down and weighed down and exhausted with no will to seek Him at all, spent; He has given us the promise that He will renew our strength, and He will again strengthen our hearts. So we wait. He will do it at the perfect time and in the perfect way. Wait upon Him. He is not sleeping, He is doing. He will not be late. Wait. Whether we feel it or not, whether we know it or not, He is causing us to lie down in green pastures, leading us beside still waters, and restoring our soul. And when He has perfected this in us (regardless of how we feel) He will again lead us out in paths of righteousness---for His namesake! And when the waiting is over, we will rejoice like little lambs. We will know Him better, love Him more, even thank Him for that time of waiting., for without it we would not know what we now know, we would not trust what we now trust, would not have what we now have, would not see what we now see. Wait.

Yes it is a hard thing to remember and to do. We are bombarded with other things to trust in constantly. We have to relearn it over and over, and m hope is that one day, it will be fully learned. And it will. I prefer it to be while I am in the land of the living but truly, after I have been through one of these dark nights I truly have rejoiced at the privilege of being led through it. That is why Jesus did even that part for us. He was utterly faithful in His trust even as He felt the anguish in hours before He was to go to the cross and suffer beyond our imagination. That was part of His perfect righteousness that is imputed to us. It is ok if we have days where we can only cry our "Lord I believe. Help my unbelief!" Or days when all the worship or prayer we are able to offer is "God I only breathe because you give me breath." We may feel like we have let go of Him, even feel like He let go of us. But He says, "I will never leave you or forsake you," and so He won't. Psalm 121 I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help! 2 My help cometh from the Lord, who made heaven and earth. 3 He will not permit thy foot to be moved; He that keepeth thee will not slumber. 4 Behold, He that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep. 5 The Lord is thy keeper; the Lord is thy shade upon thy right hand. 6 The sun shall not smite thee by day, nor the moon by night. 7 The Lord shall preserve thee from all evil; He shall preserve thy soul. 8 The Lord shall preserve thy going out and thy coming in from this time forth, and even for evermore. There is no shadow of turning with Him.

Yes. All the salvational issues are absolutes. There is also faith lone, scripture alone, for the glory of God alone. Which covers how we are saved and by whom, what is our only authority in the matter (which was dealing with the Roman church claiming itself the authority of whatever it said.) And the reason for our salvation and the purpose for our entire lives, which is always the case in God's economy and should be in ours as to how we live them.