mrs

I would be concerned about the effects of a taser on a small person, but in light of the situation it was deserved. Since police are not allowed to use the same force as those resisting what choice would she have? It is not that easy to restrain someone who is kicking hitting and punching, and if they were able to knock her to the floor and handcuff her people would be up in arms about that also.

smiles, Traveller is someone else, not to be blamed in this instance. I am AnotherTraveler, different animal entirely, not so wise, not so noble, but saved by mercy and grace anyway, even though some would like to take away my salvation card, they didn't give it to me, so they don't get to take it away. Jesus is God. "people would agree on that." Those people would be the right people, right? Jesus is God! Amen Deadly doctrine, give me a break! Triune, let's see, what verse was that again? Oh, not in the bible, Hmmm. At least circumcising someone was found in the Old Testament. They made a far better case than you do. The people who believe that a Christian must believe Jesus is God would of course be Christians. We have gone over many evidences and proofs of the Trinity in the Bible in this thread so again there is no need to review it. Oneness is heresy. You missed the point of my post. Maybe, but at least I knew who I was taking to. Eveyone that I have ever met that was "oneness" (and it's easy to tell, they have horns , not really) believes that Jesus is God, and in point of fact, that is their strongest point. Maybe they get there using reasoning that you don't like, but they are not unsaved as you have claimed them to be. I have stated the truth, having even used logic to explain it. Many others have shown from the Scripture, yet you will not see. So I think my purpose in this thread has reached an end.

smiles, Traveller is someone else, not to be blamed in this instance. I am AnotherTraveler, different animal entirely, not so wise, not so noble, but saved by mercy and grace anyway, even though some would like to take away my salvation card, they didn't give it to me, so they don't get to take it away. Jesus is God. "people would agree on that." Those people would be the right people, right? Jesus is God! Amen Deadly doctrine, give me a break! Triune, let's see, what verse was that again? Oh, not in the bible, Hmmm. At least circumcising someone was found in the Old Testament. They made a far better case than you do. The people who believe that a Christian must believe Jesus is God would of course be Christians. We have gone over many evidences and proofs of the Trinity in the Bible in this thread so again there is no need to review it. Oneness is heresy. You missed the point of my post.

Traveller, if you do not believe in the Biblical God you do not believe in the true God. Understanding of God IS a salvation issue. If you do not understand and believe that Jesus is God you cannot have been born again - people would agree on that. Therefore if a Christian must believe in Jesus' deity, they must also believe in the true God of the Bible who is Triune. If people were saying you did not have to believe in the Resurrection to be a Christian everyone in this thread would disagree with them. Why should the doctrine of the nature and Personhood of God be any less important? I reiterate that it is just as important. It is not an attack, nor condemning people to hell. I never said they could not change their way and believe the truth. It is simply calling deadly doctrine what it truly is. In the Christian faith there are none negotiables and the nature of the Godhead is one of them - as it should be to all Christians.

I have 2 questions for you. #1 What if someone Gets saved lives a christian life for 20 years, loves God and Jesus with all there heart, does everything in there power to be who God has called them to be, but dies never having accepted that the doctrine of the trinity is true? Do they go to hell? #2 What if the doctrine of the trinity is wrong? Are you going to hell? Smiles? Do you have an answer to these questions? #1 What if someone Gets saved, lives a christian life for 20 years, loves God and Jesus with all there heart, does everything in there power to be who God has called them to be, but dies never having accepted that the doctrine of the trinity is true? Do they go to hell? #2 What if the doctrine of the trinity is wrong? Are you going to hell? First off you are YET AGAIN playing your mind game twisting words. You and your ' it says the Son is God not that that God is the Son'. What?? Stop it with your semantics and get real here. You lie to yourself about the text, and you have to twist it to come to your conclusions. I have already answered number 1 and 2 with my stated beliefs on the importance of the doctrine of the Trinity to the Christian. Oneness is heresy. End of debate. End of discussion.

You proved nothing, No one denies Jesus is God, His deity is the Father, the statement in Hebrews does nothing to change that. You said right here that God is never used to refer to the Son. I proved to you with Hebrews 1 that it is. The statement in Hebrews shows that the Son is God. It does NOT say that Jesus is the Father. Again, you have horrible hermeneutics. You twist words, terms, and verses to suit your view. You cannot expect me to take your beliefs seriously when you don't even deal honestly with the text of Scripture.

Actually all verses must submit to the later revelations. The chapters are not in chronological order as Muslim scholars will tell you. That is why this verse is not followed, and the later ones that instruct to kill are. Islam teaches that all kaffar (thats anyone non-muslim) must be killed, or if they are willing to be treated as second class slaves and pay taxes, they may live.

I have already stated in this thread that a person doesnt have to understand, know, or believe in the Trinity to GET saved. But that once they are saved and grow in their faith, that is a necessary belief they will obtain. Just like the virgin birth, His ressurection and etc.

I have a blood disease called Thalassemia. One benefit to this disease is that I am immune to malaria, though it costs me in physical strength. Thalassemia was caused by a gene mutation several centuries ago among populations around the Mediterenean sea. The area at that time had a high fatality rate due to malaria. Because of the mutation some were able to survive malaria. This mutation was not about spawning a new breed, but about saving the group affected from extinction. By your definition I believe this would be evolution since a new physical characteristic (blood composition) was introduced in order for at least a few of the population to be able to survive in their enviornment. This mutation was a benefit to those of the past, but not so much for those of us living with it today. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalassemia The mutation was not evolution. Evolution requires development and producing something new...i.e birds from dinosaurs as they say. In the case of this disease, you may have a benefit of being immune to malaria but you have really LOST information. This is what they call natural selection or micro evolution. Take a long haired dog. They have a benefit of long hair but they have actually lost something - the ability to grow short hair. You would have to breed a long and a short haired dog together to gain that gene back again.

Ezek you said there was no where in the Bible that the Son was called God. I proved to you from Hebrews one that He is called God, and addressed so by the Father. That proves a) that your statement was wrong and b) that the Father and the Son are seperate persons. Yet you are dishonest with the text and deny that it is contrary to your views. What horrible hermeneutics.

I disagree. It is not really our best attempt at explaining because the Trinity really makes no sense at all. However it is what you gather from reading the text. If you were to open the Bible without ever hearing about God, Jesus, the Trinity or Oneness, you would come to the conclusion that all of them are God, yet distinct Persons. Oneness destroys the true nature of God by teaching that He is 1 in 1(that somehow has 3 manifestations) instead of 3 Persons in One. As it is a direct attack on the nature and Person of God Himself I must be strongly opposed to it, even to the point of calling it heresy. I must also reiterate that true Christianity is Trinitarian and it can be no other way.

Heb 1:1 God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom. Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: Heb 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; I rest my case. Let the Word speak for itself. True Christianity is Trinitarian and that it shall always be. Anything else is done only by twisting and neglecting the Word in plain English.

Lol ezek your arguing ways havent changed at all have they? You really didnt answer his question in any reasonable way. And shiloh I dont know, I dont think im ready for that discussion right now but thanks anyway..

The throne of David is always on earth. It is never mentioned as being in Heaven. Every single reference to it pertains to a reign of Jesus that has not happened yet. Well you need to look at the exact wording of what God promised. God promises a nation to come from Isaac and that promise is carried on to the Jacob. God has a literal people in the earth. That does not mean that we are not spiritual descendents of Abraham, to be sure. God has both a natural and spiritual people. He has His nation called Israel, and He has those who are the spiritual seed of Abraham which are all of those who are born again by faith in Christ. That's the thing. The Bible never uses it in more than a physical context. I am not sure about the throne of David thing....and I disagree with you on the natural and spiritual people viewpoint. However that would start a debate I would lose....

Shiloh this is probably a topic for another thread But how do you know for sure that the throne of David is an earthly kingdom? Could it not also mean something else? God told Abraham his seed would be as the sand of the sea and He would establish an everlasting covenant with his descendants. I used to think that was just physical, but now I think it is probably more a spiritual term, and that the everlasting covenant was salvation through Christ. As it says in Galations, we are the seed of Abraham by faith - making us included in that promise of everlasting. So on the thought that a phrase has more than just a physical meaning, is it possible this is true of the throne of David also?

The Bible says that God has the capasity to forget our sins and not to remember them any more. The Bible also more than indecates that God doesnt know all things, Just like God can forget our sins, He has the capasity to chose not to know everything. The Bible clearly teaches that nothing escapes the eye of the Lord and nothing is hide from His eye. He knew all before the world was even created. Open theism is a deadly doctrine.

Since God is all-knowing and knew everything you would do and every sin you would commit, before He made the world, why did He allow you to be born? Why did He allow me to be born? I do not know. I just know that God knows best, He does things for His glory, and He loves me.

Kross, your theory is unbiblical. I believe it is James that says, "Let no man, when he is tempted, say I am tempted of God. For God tempts no man..." Therefore it would be impossible for Paul's thorn to be a demon, a sin, or an addiction. So again your quote was out of context and still did not answer my questions either in that post or previously. And again, your last statement is erroneous. There is no "if" about it. We will always sin because we are human, but as Christians we are free from the bondage of sin and Jesus Christ will free us from slavery to addictions. Believe it or not, I do not make this stuff up. 2COR 12:7 "and lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure". Not out of context. Very specific to the point. It may be that this is Ray's thorn. Shrug. I dont see where it says it was a demon. You still really dont answer questions.

Kross, your theory is unbiblical. I believe it is James that says, "Let no man, when he is tempted, say I am tempted of God. For God tempts no man..." Therefore it would be impossible for Paul's thorn to be a demon, a sin, or an addiction. So again your quote was out of context and still did not answer my questions either in that post or previously. And again, your last statement is erroneous. There is no "if" about it. We will always sin because we are human, but as Christians we are free from the bondage of sin and Jesus Christ will free us from slavery to addictions.

OK, would you "come out" in any of the Christian churches of today? If JESUS does not give the victory, what then? What if HIS answer is, "My grace is sufficient for thee"? He might have just come out, but he obviously struggled with it for a long time. Kross you arent really answering. My grace is sufficient is taken out of context, it was in regards to some trial or pain Paul was given. It would never be an answer to a prayer asking for deliverance from sin. And yes many people have and would confess their sin. You make out that all Christians are harsh and condemning and that is not so. And even if they WERE it would still be wrong to embrace and hide said sin. And Again, if he was struggling with it he would be getting help, not joining fellowship with a church that encourages it. Why do I keep repeating myself?

But kross you seem to be saying it is ok or even normal if a Christian lives as a gay person? Don't you believe they can have victory over it? Or that they should definitely work very hard at conquering it, and get help to do so? And I seemed to get the impression from his site that he was just now coming out with it. So its not like he was taking heat from people like you imply.

I don't think smiles or anyone else is claiming that one has to believe in the trinity to GET saved, but that since it is part of the essential, defining elements of the Christian faith, a true Christian will not reject it. If a person claims to be a Christian, but rejects the Deity of Jesus, or the bodily resurrection, or the virgin birth, etc., then it is going to be difficult for them to make the case that they were truly saved, as these kinds of things, as well as the Trinity are so fundamental to the Christian faith. Exactly! I said this back at the very beginning but opposing views only wanted to argue. Thanks Shiloh.

And I agree that it is a shame. But I have seen how regular churches treat sin and sinner and i can not blame him for trying to find someone who will not stand in condemnation of hi for his weakness. GOD knows that we Christians have put up battle flags against homosexuals in such a way that we are a stumbling block between them and the JESUS they need. Salvation is still by grace, through faith alone, and this is not of us, it is a gift from GOD. And you are all talking like this is something that happened overnight, this man likely struggled and cried and sweat, and has lived with the guilot and self loathing for decades. And when he just gives it to the LORD and goes somewhere he can feel welcome, which clearly wouldn't be here, he gets slammed by people who think they have a right to do so. Sorry, I am not going to join in on kicking one of my brothers while he is down. Apparently, you folk have no idea what he has gone through and you choose this course of reasoning out of your belief that you are somehow beeter than he is. Good luck with that. I will try not to return to this string so you can continue unhindered by grace and forgiveness Kross did you really read what I said? If he truly had struggled with it dont you think he would go somewhere that would help him conquer it instead of only encourage it? As I pointed out that "church" is not Christian because of how they deny that the Bible clearly shows that homosexuality is a sin. I agree that Christians should not treat gays as dirt, or shun them; they are sinners just like us and we should show them love and grace. BUT We cannot condone it, encourage it, or embrace it. That church he is excited about embraces sin, instead of teaching against it while at the same time not rejecting the sinner. This is my problem with them.

Sorry traveller but I cannot back down from calling heresy, heresy. North American Christianity is weak, liberal, and lax because for a long time Christians here have been too wimpy to stand up to false doctrine and condemn it. In the old days of Christianity oneness doctrine would have been heartily condemned. Nowadays, it is embraced. This is a very serious matter.

A Christian can struggle with homosexuality just as they can struggle with pornography, or even commit adultery. The point is a Christian knows it is wrong and is led to repent of it. This "church" teaches that homosexuality is right, loving, and normal. They put articles on their site in which people have the nerve to say that David and Jonathon were gay, Lydia was lesbian, the man with a sick servant was gay, and even Jesus was gay! That last is WAY over the top. This church is no more Christian than my unsaved neighbor,and they, with their wishy-washy view of the Bible's authority, are teaching against it's clear Word.