Esh

Here is a quick overview of the words translated as hell: Tartaurus: For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 2 Peter 2:4 Gehenna: And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28 What else do we know about this "Valley of Hinnom" outside Jerusalem? It had a rich history before it became the city dump. In this valley, the ancient Canaanites worshiped Baal and the fire-god Molech by sacrificing their children in a fire that burned continuously. Ahaz and Manasseh, two of the kings of Judah, revived this horrible practice when Baalism became the state religion of Judah (1 Kings 11:7; 2 Chronicles 28:3; 33:6). King Josiah finally put an end to this worship. He defiled the valley in order to make it unfit even for pagan worship (2 Kings 23:10-14). By the time of the Messiah, it had become nothing more than a garbage dump. As for its future, Jeremiah has prophecied that God will send so much destruction on Jerusalem that this valley would be known as the "Valley of Slaughter" (Jeremiah 7:31-34; 19:2-6). Sheol: And if ye take this also from me, and mischief befall him, ye shall bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to the grave. Genesis 44:29 They, and all that [appertained] to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation. Numbers 16:33 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. Deuteronomy 32:22 YHWH killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up. 1 Samuel 2:6 O YHWH, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit. Psalms 30:3 There is a problem in that the poplar notion of hell is a false composite of Tartarus (where the fallen angels are sent to), Gehenna (a place of destuction), and Sheol (where men go when they die).

I would have addressed this issue in the previous post, but the board only handles a maximum of 10 embedded quotations per post. Paul's fornication is derived from the Greek porneo, meaning sexual immorality. No, the meanings are quite different. Sexual immorality includes incest and bestiality, which are unrelated to zanah.

And you seem to have trouble comprehending what I wrote. I don't dispute that. But I deny that extramarital sex, polygamy, and female homosexuality are sins according to the Torah. The act in question is sex with a virgin, not extramarital sex. Again, you are confusing the issue of loss of virginity with extramarital sex. Deuteronomy 22:13-21 is about a woman who was given in marriage to a man who expected her to be a virgin. What are you talking about? The bride would have been stoned for zanah, which is not the same as sex outside of marriage. Proof please. V.D. is associated with promiscuity more than with premarital sex. I simply quoted the lexicon. How does that make me wrong? Yes, that is what I said: Fornication is not defined by the Strongs definition of zanah. The meaning of fornication is derived from fornix, meaning brothel. I think you misunderstood what I wrote.

Cats, The definitive study of symbology in the Hebrew language is found in the Sepher Yetzirah. But corrupt and shortened English translations of this text do exist; the translation which describes the first double as wisdom/foolishness is correct.

Ummmm. You need to read the thread. The issue of ishah being translated as wife has already been discussed. This verse in response to a question about divorce, which is always between one man and one woman. Therefore it cannot be applied to the more general issue of polygamy. Really? The only failure of David that is germane to this dicussion is the death of Uriah, and that failure is independent of the issue of polygamy or extramarital sex. My defintion is sin is based upon the Torah, not Christian dogma.

Fornication is not defined by the Strongs definition of zanah. The meaning of fornication is derived from fornix, meaning brothel. There is no reference to premarital sex or lust in the Strongs definition. Paul's fornication is derived from the Greek porneo, meaning sexual immorality. The code of sexual morality is defined by the Torah, which does not forbid sex outside of marriage. This is evidenced by the lack of any explicit commandment to this effect and the fact that David had both wives and concubines, and this was not considered to be an offence per 1 Kings 15:5.

If your interpretation were correct, it would be adultery for a man to lust after his wife. "to play the whore in her father's house" 1) to commit fornication, be a harlot, play the harlot .a) (Qal) ..1) to be a harlot, act as a harlot, commit fornication ..2) to commit adultery ..3) to be a cult prostitute ..4) to be unfaithful (to God) (fig.) .b) (Pual) to play the harlot .c) (Hiphil) ..1) to cause to commit adultery ..2) to force into prostitution ..3) to commit fornication I interpret this as meaning that she was unfaithful to her father because she was under his authority while she was in his house. Yes, but within the context of being given in marriage to a man who expected her to be a virgin. No, you have generalised a particular case.

>>Ishah can mean woman or it can mean wife depending on the context. When it says wife it means wife in Genesis 2. The context distinguishes between woman and wife in that chapter. What is it about the context which makes you think that eshah should be interpreted as wife and not woman? >>Because when ishah is used to denote her gender in Gen. 2:22-23, She is woman or literally "man with a womb." Your stated reason supports the interpretation of woman rather than wife. >>Ishah is translated as wife in v.24 when it is being used the context of her relationship as a helper to her husband. Look at how many times through the Tenach that ishah is used in reference to a married woman. The meaning of 'married', in the Tanach, is when a man has dominion over a woman (Isaiah 62:5). This [is] the thing which YHWH doth command concerning the daughters of Zelophehad, saying, Let them marry to whom they think best; only to the family of the tribe of their father shall they marry. In this verse marry is a translation of ishah. >>The same is when using the word gune' in greek for wife in Matt 19:5-6. Jesus is quoting from that passage in Genesis. The reference means wife or married woman as it used in both of these OT and NT references. Gune' can also mean either woman or wife. >>gune' can mean one of three things. It can denote an unmarried virgin, a married woman or a widow. gune can also mean an unmarried woman who is not a virgin: Woman (From International Standard Bible Encyclopedia) woom'-an ('ishshah, "a woman" (feminine of 'ish, "a man"); gune, "a woman" "wife"): >>[17] Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold. Rabah, translated as multiply, means to become much or to become numerous. >>Yeah, and your point is...? That the prohibition was against numerous wives rather than more than one. The KJV rendering of b'thulaw as maid instead of virgin is incorrect. Almah could be correctly translated as maid, but not b'thulaw >>In old KJV, Elizabethan English, a maid (or maiden) WAS a virgin. They had a term called "old maid." It meant a woman who had never married, and had never lain with a man. So splitting hairs over "virgin" or "maid" is kind of silly. Hoverever, in contemporary Eniglish the meaning is different, in that is not apparent that a maid should be a virgin. The KJV rendering of b'thulaw as maid instead of virgin is incorrect. Almah could be correctly translated as maid, but not b'thulaw >>Wrong. Bethulâh is derived from bâtthal, and is related to bâdal, which means "to separate. It refers to a young maiden still living in her father's house and still a long way from being married. Is this just your opinion, or do you have a reference? >>I am Jewish, and I study and speak Hebrew. There is no "opinion" where Hebrew is concerned. Hebrew is a very precise language, and there are few lexicons or dictionaries that do it justice. >>Amâh, on the other hand is a reference to a fully mature virgin who is approaching the time of her marriage. That is why almah is translated virgin in Isaiah 7:14. Mary was not a bethulah, but was a fully mature virgin betrothed and approaching the time of marriage. The following text is also from a Jew who speaks Hebrew: This Hebrew word ha

Do you think it was an abomination for David to have wives and concubines? So how do you reconcile this perceived abomination with 1 Kings 15:5? Because David did [that which was] right in the eyes of YHWH, and turned not aside from any [thing] that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite. 1 Kings 15:5. So many times when people lose their arguments with me they trot out the tired old escape clause: "you're taking it out of context". Can you explain why you think my argument is invalid because of context? Reference please. His laws are there for a reason. The Pharisees add to the burdens of men by making the laws more difficult to keep. What? Wrong. That argument depends on the definition of adultery, which does not include sex with an unmarried woman.

Wrong. Adultery always involves the wife of another man. na'aph: 1) to commit adultery .a) (Qal) ..1) to commit adultery ...a) usually of man ....1) always with wife of another ...b) adultery (of women) (participle) ..2) idolatrous worship (fig.) .b) (Piel) ..1) to commit adultery ...a) of man ...b) adultery (of women) (participle) ..2) idolatrous worship (fig.) I am not a "christian". Do you think it was an abomination for David to have wives and concubines? And David took [him] more concubines and wives out of Jerusalem, after he was come from Hebron: and there were yet sons and daughters born to David. 2 Samuel 5:13 Because David did [that which was] right in the eyes of YHWH, and turned not aside from any [thing] that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite. 1 Kings 15:5

What is it about the context which makes you think that eshah should be interpreted as wife and not woman? Gune' can also mean either woman or wife. Rabah, translated as multiply, means to become much or to become numerous. The KJV rendering of b'thulaw as maid instead of virgin is incorrect. Almah could be correctly translated as maid, but not b'thulaw Is this just your opinion, or do you have a reference? The Brown, Driver, Briggs, Gesenius Lexicon gives no meaning other than virgin. The lexicon disagrees with you: 'amah {aw-maw'} apparently a primitive word; TWOT - 112; n f AV - handmaid 22, maidservant 19, maid 8, bondwoman 4, bondmaids 2; 55 1) maid-servant, female slave, maid, handmaid, concubine 1a) of humility (fig.) You have just contradicted your own definition of bethulah, since you said that the word means a virgin who is far from being married. "If a man entices a virgin who isn't pledged to be married, and lies with her, he shall surely pay a dowry for her to be his wife. WEB And if a man entice a virgin that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely pay a dowry for her to be his wife. ASV If a man takes a virgin, who has not given her word to another man, and has connection with her, he will have to give a bride-price for her to be his wife. BBE And if a man seduce a virgin that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall certainly endow her, to be his wife. DBY And if a man entice a virgin that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely pay a dowry for her to be his wife. JPS And when a man doth entice a virgin who 'is' not betrothed, and hath lain with her, he doth certainly endow her to himself for a wife; YLT

The word translated as wife is eshah, which more accurately means female. Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that [are] not clean by two, the male and his female[eshah]. Genesis 2:24 Polygamy was never forbidden. Reference please. What about Jacob then? Yes, it isn't about homosexuality. But it would seem that the religious prohibition of unorthodox sexuality is a reccuring theme. Control by guilt comes to mind. The idea that sex outside of marriage is unlawful could have come from the following mistranslation: And if a man entice a virgin [KJV=maid] that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife. If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins. Exodus 22:16-17 Because the KJV rendering of b'thulaw as maid instead of virgin is incorrect. Almah could be correctly translated as maid, but not b'thulaw

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Really? where? No it isn't. Polygamy was never forbidden. The idea that sex outside of marriage is unlawful could have come from the following mistranslation: And if a man entice a virgin [KJV=maid] that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife. If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins. Exodus 22:16-17

When the Bible addresses man as a race it does not exclude women. In regards to the issue of homosexuality, the Bible does specifically mention lesbians: Romans 1:26-27 (The New King James Version) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I was talking about the law, not the opinion of Paul.