Kansasdad

very good work.

Do they know if this was Drug lord, War Lord, or Religious extremist that did the killing?

It will never happen because of the constitutional separation of church and state and the constitutional right to freedom of expression. If you tried to force a church to perform a civil union, the ACLU would be the first to come to the church's defense. The constitution works both ways, if the religious right would quite trying to use the government as a vehicle to promote their religious beliefs (and rightfully lose every time), they might find that the same organizations that fight against them doing so are the same organizations who would defend them if the government tried to infringe upon their religious practices and beliefs. I might add that the vast majority of gays and lesbians simply want to enjoy the same rights and responsibilities under the law that the rest of us enjoy. The majority of them only want tolerance and justice, thats it. This is what the constitution actually says, Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof... I wonder what will happen when our Gov. decides that the free exercise thereof violates some "civil right"

To understand the story of Ester one must realize that it is not given as a historical event. It is given as a story to demonstrate a point. Historically Vasti was never deposed. In fact she out lived the King. History does record her as being a tyrant. The marriage between a man and woman is symbolic of the relationship between Jesus and his Church. This is a story to illustrate that relationship. God Bless, K.D.

No, a flat tax is not fair unless all taxes are flat all the way up. For example, what most people who propose a flat tax is a flat income tax rate. However, they exclude income due to capital gains and dividends. Moreover, they keep payroll taxes as they are. So, say you have a flat tax rate of 20%. What would happen is that I would loose all deductions that I currently get for things like mortgage interest and childcare expenses. So my tax would be 20% of my income in Federal Income Taxes, and 15% of my income in Payroll Taxes. So my total tax rate to the Federal Government would be 35% of my income. Otherwise, tax increase. However, because dividends and capital gains would not be taxed, guys like Warren Buffet would pay little if any income tax at all, and would only pay payroll taxes on their first 90k of Income. Thus, his tax rate would be less than 1% of his income. You see, when guys like Steve Forbs push a flat tax, they are trying to get over on you. The only way a flat tax would be fair is if everything was taxed at that same flat tax rate. That way, income would be taxed at say 15%, dividends at 15%, capital gains at 15%, someone hands you an estate worth 30 million then we would tax it at 15%. The payroll tax ceiling would be removed, and the payroll tax percent could go from 15% down to about 5%. Thus, all taxes combined, we would all regardless of income pay in about 20% in income taxes. No one that has proposed a flat tax has proposed such a system and until they do, they are just trying to get over on you. Actually I think Brownback has proposed such a system.

Maybe he liked it. There is nothing wrong with enjoying what God has given you. And here we have one more example from Jesus on how we can enjoy it with out sinning. God Bless, K.D.

I think you miss understand the nature of Hell. Hell is the absence of God, and God is giving us a warning about the choices we make. It is like if I tell you about jumping off a cliff. Just because I tell you about the consequences of jumping off the cliff doesn't mean I made you jump off the cliff. Further if I never tell you about the consequences then what kind of person would I be. God is telling you about consequences of your decisions. Just think of how cruel it would be if he never told you about the consequences. God Bless, K.D.

You've actually explained the NEED for a doctrine of infallibility for the Church. Whether you believe that it is granted to the Pope, or to the Church in some other way, it must exist for the Truth to be carried without perversion thru the ages. Personal interpretation and formulation of doctrine does not work. It has resulted in the division and fragmentation we see today. With the charism of infallibility, even though evil and stupid men may gain power and authority in the Church, the Holy Spirit will not allow them to corrupt the doctrine. Peace, Fiosh This would be a NEED, only if that was the only way truth could be preserved (through a human agency). But there are several other ways God could choose (and I believe did acccording to scripture) to ensure that His truth is maintained. Arguing from need (or result) is actually a form of arguing according to consequence. This says that something must be true because if it wasn't, something bad would happen (or the consequences would be undesirable). However, there are several ways God could (and I think did) choose to preserve truth. Since there are numerous possible ways He could have chosen to do so, need is not sufficient to prove that one way is superior over others. There must be other proofs brought to bear to determine which is thwe way God has chosen to preserve truth. Personal interpretation is not the only method that has resulted in error, division and schism. Those who believe that truth resides in their heirarchy (whether it be an organization or an individual) must apply that logic consistently. Your logic is that because individuals have made errors in judgement, individual interpretation cannot be a viable guide. Then using that same logic, because all institutions have made errors in judgement, none can be arbiters of the truth. That is the weakness of arguing from result. If applied consistently, it rules out everything Except that the argument from consequence shows that when speeking in this capasity the Pope through out the ages has never made an error. Therefore in this capasity history does bear out the arbiter of truth. If you ignore the inquisition, the crusades, and the fact that the pope seems to change his mind regarding certain "eternal" truths every few hundred years or so. None of which were ever considered infallible truths, given to us from a Pope. I really don't think you are reading the post. Not everything said by a Pope is infallible. In fact it is a rare event. One other distinction, It is not the Pope who is infallible, it is the Holy Spirit working through the Pope that is infallible. Does anyone here argue that the Holy Spirit is infallible. If not then the only question is, Has the Holy Spirit ever used a Pope? When this is the case, it is infallible. The doctrine of infallibility only defines when we can know it is the Holy Spirit working through the Pope. Any Tom Dick or Jane can claim to be guided by the Holy spirit, it doesn't make it true.

You've actually explained the NEED for a doctrine of infallibility for the Church. Whether you believe that it is granted to the Pope, or to the Church in some other way, it must exist for the Truth to be carried without perversion thru the ages. Personal interpretation and formulation of doctrine does not work. It has resulted in the division and fragmentation we see today. With the charism of infallibility, even though evil and stupid men may gain power and authority in the Church, the Holy Spirit will not allow them to corrupt the doctrine. Peace, Fiosh This would be a NEED, only if that was the only way truth could be preserved (through a human agency). But there are several other ways God could choose (and I believe did acccording to scripture) to ensure that His truth is maintained. Arguing from need (or result) is actually a form of arguing according to consequence. This says that something must be true because if it wasn't, something bad would happen (or the consequences would be undesirable). However, there are several ways God could (and I think did) choose to preserve truth. Since there are numerous possible ways He could have chosen to do so, need is not sufficient to prove that one way is superior over others. There must be other proofs brought to bear to determine which is thwe way God has chosen to preserve truth. Personal interpretation is not the only method that has resulted in error, division and schism. Those who believe that truth resides in their heirarchy (whether it be an organization or an individual) must apply that logic consistently. Your logic is that because individuals have made errors in judgement, individual interpretation cannot be a viable guide. Then using that same logic, because all institutions have made errors in judgement, none can be arbiters of the truth. That is the weakness of arguing from result. If applied consistently, it rules out everything Except that the argument from consequence shows that when speeking in this capasity the Pope through out the ages has never made an error. Therefore in this capasity history does bear out the arbiter of truth.

Several of the small hospitals in Kansas are pooling resources to help the employees of the hospital in Greensburg. Donations are being sought through a foundation here in Kansas. 100% of the donations will go directly to the employees of the Greensburg Hospital. The Foundation is in direct contact with Mary the CEO. The Greensburg Hospital was part of the Great Plains Health Alliance organization. This is being coordinated through their foundation. Here is the contact information if anyone would like to donate. Or it can be sent through me just pm for information. The hospital can use clothing, and there is an employee fund which will be set up through the Great Plains Health Care Foundation. Checks may be made to the KCMH Employee Fund, and sent to GPHA, P.O. Box 366, Phillipsburg, KS 67661. Most of all the community would appreciate your thoughts and prayers. God Bless, K.D. Can we pin this for awhile?

This one was way too close. One of my nurse's parents live in Greensburg. There house is one of the few still standing, They are ok. Their house took major roof damage so much in the house is ruined, we have had continual rain since the event. We were able to send several of our Emergency personnel to the sight including Rn's, Nurse Practitioner and P.A. the Town is just wiped out. It is an unbelievable sight. The tornado was a mile wide and rated a EF-5 The highest rating possible. The people will need lots of prayer and help! God Bless, Kansas Dad I'm still trying to figure out what a tornado that is a mile wide at it's base looks like. I do know what no F-5 and yes iti is thw worst there is. I live in Southern California in earthquake country, but I also was born and reaied in Michgian where we had toronados. Believe earthquakes are just as scary but at least in an earthquake you can run outside. Been through both. I think the toronados are worse. After the OK City tornado they created a new warning called a tornado emergency. This warning was issued shortly before it hit Greensburg. I think it has only been used 2 or 3 times. As you can see by the pictures the town of Greensburg is not much more than 1 mile wide. This tornado was an unbelievable event. It continued for another 26 miles, with near misses at other towns. The residents are just now being let back into to the town to find what little possessions they may have left. There has already been 5 people arrested for looting. National guards men no less, cigarettes and beer. Every time I see the pictures it remains shocking. My sons and I have been to the bottom of the big well. They can't even get to it now. completely buried. Our nurse, with family there, got in right after it was hit and found her parents. She had a hard time even knowing exactly where she was within the town. Please keep these folks in your prayers and any other help you may be able to provide. God Bless, K.D.

This one was way too close. One of my nurses's parents live in Greensburg. There house is one of the few still standing, They are ok. Their house took major roof damage so much in the house is ruined, we have had continual rain since the event. We were able to send several of our Emergency personnel to the sight including Rn's, Nurse Practitioner and P.A. the Town is just wiped out. It is an unbelievable sight. The tornado was a mile wide and rated a EF-5 The highest rating possible. The people will need lots of prayer and help! God Bless, Kansas Dad

I didn't trust their charity event last night. I think they brought good attention to pressing needs but I don't trust that group of people to actually use the money wisely. Hollywood has a terrible track record of actually getting the money to the people who need it. I decided to continue giving to charities I knew would actually use the money for the purpose stated. Sorry just can't trust Ellen D, Disney, Ford, Hollywood etc. At no time did I see any commitment on what % of donations would actually go to the causes and how much would be chewed up in "administrative". and how much would be used to promote an agenda? God Bless, K.D.

Ok lets take a little closer look here. It seems that you have skipped a few lines in your conclusion. First lets start with what I think we will agree on. This is not a story about a human master and his servants. They are representations of something else. I think on that we agree. So who is the master. The verse talks about when the master returns, this is significant. This is about when Jesus, our Master, returns. His second coming. On this I think we agree. So from this we also know that the servants (that would be us humans) are no longer on earth after this return of our master...correct? So lets look at the servant examples Jesus give us. First group, nasty people they do all kinds of bad things even though they know the master. What happens to these people...They go to hell Second group..people who knew the masters will but didn't prepare or didn't follow them very well. These people are beaten harshly, but they still make it into heaven. Third group: people who didn't know the masters will or didn't know it very well. what happens to these people..they get a lesser beating and then get into heaven. Now obviously God isn't administering the "beating" or purification to people already in heaven. These are not the first group that goes to Hell. So where does the beating from the master happen. It can't be on earth, it can't be in heaven, and it can't be in Hell. You can't just ignore the part where Jesus talks about the beatings, this is not a reference to few or great rewards. Jesus would not have used the word beatings to describe heavenly rewards. God Bless, K.D. What are you talking about? Those who beat did evil and never entered heaven. Are you talking about where the rewards and sentences are carried out? They are carried out in the Throne Room. No other place. And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. This is not a reference to rewards, and these people are not destined for Hell. Where does the spiritual beating take place? It can't be heaven, and it can't be Hell? You know you both have missed the meaning of this parable. Jesus was talking about the disciples, as well as every minister on down from them. this is directed to all ministers/pastors not anyone else other than them. They are in charge of the flock/church body of caring for them, feeding them, nurturing them but if they abuse them and beat them, I.E. Spiritual abuse, then the master will come again and it will not be a pretty sight for those that have abused their authority given to them. Ministers or Servents (1.) They are made rulers of God

I appreciate your post, ruck. However, the whole concept of the thread determines if Christ is edified or not, which goes back to whether the body is edified or not. The body cannot be edified without the Head being edified. There are a lot of "he said, she said" threads out there; I do not believe this is one of them. I think it's an important issue, and for a Christian to mature in Christ, the question of what happens after death needs to be answered. This thread, I believe, is attempting to do that. Scripture has been quoted and searched and analyzed. Does that help the children of the King? Yes!!! I don't know how many people have prayed before posting their response, and it's not my concern. My concern is whether I pray before I post. That I do (most of the time !) Having said that to ruck, I will ask some things of Kansasdad (I love your user name, BTW): Thanks 1. You said Scripture needs to back up Scripture. I agree. However, there have been many posts on this thread in which people have posted Scripture after Scripture after Scripture (Scripture backing up Scripture) which state that Christ's blood is sufficient to gain us entrance into Heaven. I've noticed you have tended to not acknowledge these. My question is: why? 2. You told FA (I think!) that her understanding of Jesus' statement, "It is finished," was not the correct one. I don't recall you saying what Jesus actually meant by that phrase, if it wasn't the fact that the work needed to get us into Heaven was done. Maybe you did, and I missed it. If so, I apologize, and could you repeat it? 3. When the Bible says that God has forgiven us all our sins, what does the word "all" mean to you? I like the fact that you brought the thread back on focus, KD. But I still think you're wrong . Please prove me right if you can. BTW, I believe there is no pergutory because I have "searched the Scriptures" and I find that beyond my works of rightousness (which are nothing), there's no other way God can look at me (because I sin and God can't look at sin) without Jesus making restitution with God and me (Romans 5:1). As far as the verses you quoted: I can explain some of them with the Greek, I can explain some of them with the times of the day, I can explain some with the context in which they were spoken. I cannot explain them all, nor would I want to try. (Just as you cannot explain all the verses that have been quoted to you.) What I would explain is how the concept of pergutory does not fit in with the concept of salvation. That, I believe, is what most of the posters on this thread have been trying to do. So can you explain to us how pergutory fits into the concept of salvation? And maybe that should be question number 4 to you: what, exactly, does salvation mean to you, Kansasdad? Is it works of righteousness, which pergutory implies? Or is it grace, which God's Word talks about quite frequently? You may believe what you want about pergutory, but what you do with Jesus is the utmost! Peace. Thank you for this heart given post. It is much appreciated. I just spent the last 35-40 minutes typing, looking up scripture verses for support and typing some more to only hit the wrong part of the tab and closed my browser. Quite frankly I am now quite brain dead and disappointed in myself. I will try again but not tonight, and I will try to answer as completely as possible. God Bless, K.D. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Ok lets take a little closer look here. It seems that you have skiped a few lines in your conclusion. First lets start with what I think we will agree on. This is not a story about a human master and his servants. They are representations of something else. I think on that we agree. So who is the master. The verse talks about when the master returns, this is significant. This is about when Jesus, our Master, returns. His second comming. On this I think we agree. So from this we also know that the servants (that would be us humans) are no longer on earth after this return of our master...correct? So lets look at the servant examples Jesus give us. First group, nasty people they do all kinds of bad things even though they know the master. What happens to these people...They go to hell Second group..people who knew the masters will but didn't prepare or didn't follow them very well. These people are beaten harshly, but they still make it into heaven. Third group: people who didn't know the masters will or didn't know it very well. what happens to these people..they get a lesser beating and then get into heaven. Now obviously God isn't administering the "beating" or purification to people already in heaven. These are not the first group that goes to Hell. So where does the beating from the master happen. It can't be on earth, it can't be in heaven, and it can't be in Hell. You can't just ignore the part where Jesus talks about the beatings, this is not a reference to few or great rewards. Jesus would not have used the word beatings to describe heavenly rewards. God Bless, K.D. What are you talking about? Those who beat did evil and never entered heaven. Are you talking about where the rewards and sentences are carried out? They are carried out in the Throne Room. No other place. And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. This is not a refference to rewards, and these people are not destined for Hell. Where does the spiritual beating take place? It can't be heaven, and it can't be Hell?

What bible is this? It is one of the seven Deutero-Canonical books It is not of the Canon. Not Biblical. So, put that aside. Actually it is, but that is a whole different discussion.

it's best you keep running circles on Axe because I understand your motive. ... 3xR0c|<stAr Let me give you a little advise about posting on forum boards. It is generally not a good idea to try and assume peoples motives. You have very little refference to base your assumption on and more often then not you are wrong. I have made this very error myself. It is best if you just take peoples words exactly as they are and not project your own biases into them. People do come from very different backgrounds and cultures. Often what a person "reads" into the post is actually more a reflection of themselves. Yes I will continue to engage in conversation with Floating Axe. We often disagree, but she is my sister in Christ always! God Bless, Kansas Dad

What bible is this? It is one of the seven Deutero-Canonical books

sir if you have a King James with notes on it there should be a number next to the word "world" then if you follow that number in the notes of that scripture then you should see the word "ages." it is good to have a bible with these notes. it is not because the definition changes but because words change through time. so I went to a bible online and it says: KJV: " 32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come" New KJV: "32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come." you have to keep an eye on these things. that's why its good to get yourself a study bible. I will be more than happy to assist you in learning how to use one. I may even recommend one for you if you'd like. Here is another example of what Im talking about. "Matthew 6:6 KJV: But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. NKJV: 6 But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly unless you are a believer that you have to hide in a closet to pray properly then I maybe and tampering your beliefs. a room was called a closet. now i figured why you are so confused. I will be more than happy to assist you in helping to find good tools and books for your studies. I was confused on the position you were taking about "worlds" and "ages" and now I know why. I agree, if we study scripture then let's study it properly. ... 3xR0c|<stAr Dear sir, When newer versions insert words that significantly change the meaning of the verse you should be cautious. Changing the word from closet to room does not effect the core meaning or message. Changing from world to age does. This is why at that point a person should try to look back to the original language, which I did. In its original language it is a reference to an after life. So yes I completely agree that when we study the Bible we should learn to study it properly God Bless, K.D.

This world is here and now. The next world is the one to come. The New Earth. Purgatory is not any world, and neither is it to come, if that is what you are thinking, for it is supposed to exist contemporaneously with this world, is it not? There is absolutely no inference of another existence beside the here and now and the Kingdom of God, in the heavenly realm. As I explained to exrockstar, this is very obvious, Jesus is talking to people who are very much alive. For the audience he is talking to and in context the next world in its original Greek is a reference to the after life, and would most definitely be an existence in their future not their present. Further for your assumption to be true we would suffer in the new earth. I hardly think so. This verse clearly refers to an existence, after the one we know on earth, where we will suffer loss. Can this possibly happen in heaven or on "the new Earth"

This one is easy. "Under the earth refers to hell." Are you forgetting that EVERY knee shall bow to the King of Kings and Lord of Lords? EVERYONE--redeemed and the lost. There is no such place as Purgatory. Philippians 2:10... 9-11Because of that obedience, God lifted him high and honored him far beyond anyone or anything, ever, so that all created beings in heaven and on earth

19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' 27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' 29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.'" Hades (also called "hell" and "sheol") is simply the waiting place for those who have died without Christ. It is not purgatory. It is not the place of punishment, as God has not punished anyone yet. This parable serves to show how there is such a great impassable gulf between the place where the redeemed go and the place where the lost go. Can someone who is completely seperated from God know compassion? Without God compassion does not exist.

Ok lets take a little closer look here. It seems that you have skiped a few lines in your conclusion. First lets start with what I think we will agree on. This is not a story about a human master and his servants. They are representations of something else. I think on that we agree. So who is the master. The verse talks about when the master returns, this is significant. This is about when Jesus, our Master, returns. His second comming. On this I think we agree. So from this we also know that the servants (that would be us humans) are no longer on earth after this return of our master...correct? So lets look at the servant examples Jesus give us. First group, nasty people they do all kinds of bad things even though they know the master. What happens to these people...They go to hell Second group..people who knew the masters will but didn't prepare or didn't follow them very well. These people are beaten harshly, but they still make it into heaven. Third group: people who didn't know the masters will or didn't know it very well. what happens to these people..they get a lesser beating and then get into heaven. Now obviously God isn't administering the "beating" or purification to people already in heaven. These are not the first group that goes to Hell. So where does the beating from the master happen. It can't be on earth, it can't be in heaven, and it can't be in Hell. You can't just ignore the part where Jesus talks about the beatings, this is not a reference to few or great rewards. Jesus would not have used the word beatings to describe heavenly rewards. God Bless, K.D.