Kansasdad

Yes Peter was definitely a flawed human being who had to overcome much pride to become a servant. I bet if you find yourself a good leader they would be able to tell you of more than one occasion where the group he/she was leading had to provide correction. The mark of a good leader is that they are humble enough to accept the correction and change, and not hang on to their pride. So as Jesus teaches us, a good leader is a good servant. Which by the way is the true calling of the Pope, to be a good servant, not a lord or master. A flawed human that makes mistakes. God Bless, K.D.

This is a catholic way of thinking. The Scriptures plainly show that Peter never thought himself to have more authority over the other apostles. You added the words "over the other apostles" to my statement. If you really want to know the truth about Peter and his role, take your Concordance, look up "Peter"; then read all the verses that are referenced. Take notes concerning what is said by, to and about Peter. Then we'll talk. Scripture says what it says. Peace, F It doesn't matter how many times Peter's name is mentioned in scripture. I have already done a search for the many times Peter's name is referenced in scripture, and I have it shown on my September archives on my blog writings and research on the sabotage of Biblical Christianity by the RCC. My point is Peter himself never thought himself to be over or have more authority than the other apostles, so we should not either. Actually Scripture is full of examples where Peter took the charge role. It is quite extensive actually. Matt. to Rev. - Peter is mentioned 155 times and the rest of apostles combined are only mentioned 130 times. Peter is also always listed first except in 1 Cor. 3:22 and Gal. 2:9 (which are obvious exceptions to the rule). Matt. 10:2; Mark 1:36; 3:16; Luke 6:14-16; Acts 1:3; 2:37; 5:29 - these are some of many examples where Peter is mentioned first among the apostles. Matt. 14:28-29 - only Peter has the faith to walk on water. No other man in Scripture is said to have the faith to walk on water. Matt. 16:16, Mark 8:29; John 6:69 - Peter is first among the apostles to confess the divinity of Christ. Matt. 16:17 - Peter alone is told he has received divine knowledge by a special revelation from God the Father. Matt. 16:18 - Jesus builds the Church only on Peter, the rock, with the other apostles as the foundation and Jesus as the Head. Matt. 16:19 - only Peter receives the keys, which represent authority over the Church and facilitate dynastic succession to his authority. Matt. 17:24-25 - the tax collector approaches Peter for Jesus' tax. Peter is the spokesman for Jesus. He is the Vicar of Christ. Matt. 17:26-27 - Jesus pays the half-shekel tax with one shekel, for both Jesus and Peter. Peter is Christ's representative on earth. Matt. 18:21 - in the presence of the disciples, Peter asks Jesus about the rule of forgiveness. One of many examples where Peter takes a leadership role among the apostles in understanding Jesus' teachings. Matt. 19:27 - Peter speaks on behalf of the apostles by telling Jesus that they have left everything to follow Him. Mark 10:28 - here also, Peter speaks on behalf of the disciples by declaring that they have left everything to follow Him. Mark 11:21 - Peter speaks on behalf of the disciples in remembering Jesus' curse on the fig tree. Mark 14:37 - at Gethsemane, Jesus asks Peter, and no one else, why he was asleep. Peter is accountable to Jesus for his actions on behalf of the apostles because he has been appointed by Jesus as their leader. Mark 16:7 - Peter is specified by an angel as the leader of the apostles as the angel confirms the resurrection of Christ. Luke 5:3

Thanks, this is interesting and helpful. However, my first reason for asking was because I had been under the impression I could bind and loose things in my children's lives in prayer. It seems I was wrong in this interpretation. Can I widen the discussion a bit to ask what authority I have as a Christian mother in this sort of area and how to pray? I'm coming across situations at the moment I have no previous experience of and I'm a bit at a loss how to pray, especially now that it seems my understanding of this verse was wrong. Prayer is a conversation you have with God. There are no magic words that have special power. All the Power lies with God. Just bring your petition to God in what ever words come. He knows your needs, even if the words are not exactly right. Just turn the situation over to God and ask him to handle it. God Bless, Kansas Dad

Sorry, but that is just wrong on several levels. God did not give man the power to forgive sins, at least not in the sense you make it out to be. John 20:23 also proves that the keys of the Kingdom did not belong to Peter alone. The "sins" he is referring to are not sins against God, but rather it is speaking of the authority of the disciples, now apostles to judiciate between beleivers. It was speaking solely in a judicial sense. Jesus did not communicate absolute power to forgive sins to the aposltes, and we do not have them excercizing such power anywhere in the book of Acts. Jesus gave ALL of them the same power where governence of the church was concerned. He did not give sole power to Peter. You are not arguing against me, Shiloh. You are contradicting what is plainly stated in Scripture. Matt 16: 16 Simon Peter said in reply, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. 18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven Yes but these same keys were given to all the apostles not to just to Peter. (Matt. 18:18, and John 20:23) Morevover they were not being communicated Christ's power to forgive sins. They were given the power to judiciate (thus, "bind and loose"), legislate and teach. What you don't understand is that Jesus was not doing something unique. He was doing what every Rabbi did. The "keys to the Kingdom" were not something Jesus made up. It referred in that day, to rabbinic authority and it could only be transferred by another Rabbi. I would think that the very very early Church leaders who were taught by the very disciples of the Apostles would be very aware of this, and they strongly disagree with you. Also to hold on to your position you must completely ignore ..23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. This is so plain it amazing how people try every way posible to make it say something else. God Bless, Kansas Dad

Where did this come form, or is this your thoughts? and of course I always consider you a sister in Christ. I hope my responses are not too spirited. God Bless, Kansas Dad

Well I don't know who David Guzik is or why his opinion should hold any weight, but his commentary doesn't address this verse at all. It totally ignores the second half of each statement. Notice that Jesus says if the Apostles forgive the sins then they will be forgiven in heaven. This is hardly a call for the Apostles to just proclaim forgiveness. Also notice that Jesus says that if the Apostles retain the sin it will also be retained in heaven. This is hardly just a call for a warning. He also totally ignores other verses of scripture besides John 20:23 which is very clear. You also have to ignore Matt. 18:18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven. and 2 Cor. 2:10 And to whom you have pardoned any thing, I also. For, what I have pardoned, if I have pardoned any thing, for your sakes have I done it in the person of Christ. ( This is an example where Paul does the very thing you say he can not do.) Further read 2 Cor 5 . 18 But all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Christ; and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation. 19 For God indeed was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not imputing to them their sins; and he hath placed in us the word of reconciliation. 20 For Christ therefore we are ambassadors, God as it were exhorting by us. For Christ, we beseech you, be reconciled to God. Acts 19:18 (And many of them that believed, came confessing and declaring their deeds.) many came to orally confess sins and divulge their sinful practices. Oral confession was the practice of the early Church just as it is today. Now lets look at what some of the disciples of the Apostles had to say about the subject. I would be much more interested in what they had to say then some contemporary writer. I think knowing what the Apostles taught hold much more weight. "Father who knowest the hearts of all grant upon this Thy servant whom Thou hast chosen for the episcopate to feed Thy holy flock and serve as Thine high priest, that he may minister blamelessly by night and day, that he may unceasingly behold and appropriate Thy countenance and offer to Thee the gifts of Thy holy Church. And that by the high priestly Spirit he may have authority to forgive sins..." Hippolytus, Apostolic Tradition, 3 (A.D. 215). "In addition to these there is also a seventh, albeit hard and laborious: the remission of sins through penance...when he does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord." Origen, Homilies on Leviticus, 2:4 (A.D. 248). "It is necessary to confess our sins to those whom the dispensation of God's mysteries is entrusted." Basil, Rule Briefly Treated, 288 (A.D. 374). Notice the dates, these are the Church leaders who followed the Apostles, well before Constantine came along in A.D. 500 or so. So don't try to make this just a Catholic Church thing. It was taught since the very beginning of Church history. God Bless, Kansas Dad

Anything that Jesus bestowed upon His disciples is available to us, His disciples now! I refute any of this teaching that you purvey. It is absolute blindness to the truth of Jesus Christ and why He came. I rebuke and bind that in the Name of Jesus Christ! Pretty strong their floatingaxe, but you have just asked Jesus to rebuke his own words. You might think about why you have had such a strong reaction. Think about it, do you really think that all members of the Church can forgive sins and then their sins will be forgiven by God. To take your interpretation. that is the natural conclusion you would have to reach. That is what Jesus just told his Apostles. He gave them this authority. These are not my words, these are the words of Jesus Christ. So tell me do you believe that everything given to the Apostles is also given to us. Then if that is true and you confess your sins to me and I say, I am sorry but you were not sincere and your sins are not forgiven, would you accept that as being truth. According to your interpretation Jesus gave me that authority, (and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained) No, This was Authority given to the Apostles as leaders of His Church. This is the authority given to his Church, not each individual of the Church. God Bless, Kansas Dad Only Jesus can forgive sins. The Catholic church has extrapolated the sin-forgiving thing. Then please explain this verse. You are just ignoring it. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. Do you deny that Jesus said this to his Apostles?

Anything that Jesus bestowed upon His disciples is available to us, His disciples now! I refute any of this teaching that you purvey. It is absolute blindness to the truth of Jesus Christ and why He came. I rebuke and bind that in the Name of Jesus Christ! Pretty strong their floatingaxe, but you have just asked Jesus to rebuke his own words. You might think about why you have had such a strong reaction. Think about it, do you really think that all members of the Church can forgive sins and then their sins will be forgiven by God. To take your interpretation, that is the natural conclusion you would have to reach. That is what Jesus just told his Apostles. He gave them this authority. These are not my words, these are the words of Jesus Christ. So tell me do you believe that everything given to the Apostles is also given to us. Then if that is true and you confess your sins to me and I say, I am sorry but you were not sincere and your sins are not forgiven, would you accept that as being truth. According to your interpretation Jesus gave me that authority, (and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained) No, This was Authority given to the Apostles as leaders of His Church. This is the authority given to his Church, not each individual of the Church. God Bless, Kansas Dad

Sorry guys but you are dancing all around this one. Jesus was talking directly to his disciples. This was not a gift given to every member of the Church. Take into consideration John 20: 21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. Again this is given to the disciples. The verse you are talking about is dealing with the forgiveness of sins. Otherwise you have to take it completely out of its context. God Bless, Kansas Dad

August 19th Romans 8:19 NIV The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. God Bless, K.D.

In a great church, you will see all the gifts in operation. On this I agree completely

I agree completely that we are all given gifts to be used for the glory of God, but gifts and authority are not the same thing.

Actually these verses support what I have been saying. Jesus appointed These special men. We can clearly see that this same authority was not given to all the members of the church in Corinth (for example) It was given only to those taught directly by Christ, and then those who were directly taught by Christ taught those that replaced them. You make a jump when you say we are all given this authority. Scripture does not say this. That authority is never given to every member of the Church only those appointed. I agree that we all have the great commission to spread his word but that is not the same as having the authority given by Jesus to safeguard his truth, to lead his church. God Bless, K.D.

Floatingaxe I agree with you, but you might be missing the point of what Kansasdad is saying. Any leaders that he or his group have not established are not genuine leaders. Also, the church is not the Church (note the capital C). This superior position is claimed due to succession that none others will have except those in the RCC. Ah you put words in my mouth. I have never claimed that I have any ability to establish who has authority. I have never claimes that any group has this authority. The only thing I have done is point out what scripture says, and point out what examples we can see from scripture. If Jesus did not give his apostles special authority over his church prove that to me through scripture. If the Apostles did not pass that on to very specific people prove that to me in scripture. If this is not Gods plan prove that to me through scripture. If Gods plan failed, prove that through scripture. I can as I have already done post the scripture that shows this to be absolutely true. This was the plan set up by Jesus Christ, It was the plan followed by the Apostles, and we have the promise of almighty God that it will not fail. You are the one that can not use scripture to up hold your position. This is authority given to the Apostles not to each individual in the Church. Thus Paul tells the Corinthians, "I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you" (1 Cor. 11:2), and he commands the Thessalonians, "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thess. 2:15). He even goes so far as to order, "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us" (2 Thess. 3:6). To govern (Matt, 18: 18 (Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven) .; John 20: 21)(He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. ) , (Matt, 28: 20 (Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world); John 20: 22 (When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost.) Luke 10: 16 [(He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me) .; Matt, 18: 17) (And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican., and to use the divine means of sanctification ( Here we see a clear distinction from an individual and the Church.) How can you possible tell a Church if that Church is all true believers in the whole world) To make sure that the apostolic tradition would be passed down after the deaths of the apostles, Paul told Timothy, "[W]hat you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2 Tim. 2:2). In this passage he refers to the first four generations of apostolic succession

I have put my responses in red, I have to learn how to use that quote thing. How do you determine that we are" not following the teachings of the Apostles"? Which of the apostles teachings is it that we are not following? I confess freely that we do not pray to Mary, but neither did any of the Apostles. We are the church, and we exclude no one, but you think that your capitalizing the word church makes the church something different than what Jesus established? Who are you to question the authority that God has given to us? You are EXCLUDING your brethren by your superority, but you have no scriptural position to do so. No you are not the Church, You are part of the Church. God never gave you such authority. If so, show me where in scripture he does this. I have given you several scripture verses that show where Jesus gave authority to his chosen leaders of the Church, Simply go back and re-read my post. I am not excluding anyone. I have simply stated what scripture tells us. If you don't like Gods plan, take it up with God. Chaper and verse there please, for I read NO quote of scripture to support this nonsense. Try to use the scriptures when you claim what the scriptures say, will you? Again go back and read my post I have given you several verses of scripture that clearly establish who has the authority given to them by Jesus over the Church. It is not the individual. If so chapter and verse please. The early church met house to house, have you read the bible? Do you think this all began with carpet and air conditioning? I question whether you have read the Bible? Yes the early church met in houses but not to the exclusion of leadership. Leadership given by Jesus, not just anyone who claims it. Acts 20:20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publicly, and from house to house, Ah but you conveniently left out all of this message. The Bible also clearly states that everything Jesus gave them could not be contained in writing. So it is explicitly commanded that we hold on to all that was taught both written and oral. Tell me how are you going to follow what Paul tells us we must do and follow what he has orally taught. This was not given as an option. If you only follow the written you are only following half of Gods plan. Tell me how your little house church with no accountability to a Church leadership Holds on to everything taught by the Apostles as the Bible tells us we must do? Romans 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my well-beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ. 1 Corinthians 16:19 The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house. Colossians 4:15 Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house. Kansasdad, this denomination that you are exalting (whatever it's name might be) is actually an idol that you are exalting above the scriptures and the name of Jesus. Your post is exactly the answer to the question that this thread asked. All I have done is quoted scripture. If you claim that Jesus set up an idol then that is your opinion not mine. You are the one that has failed to show even one line of scripture that gives authority to the individuals of the church. Where as scripture is full of examples where Jesus gave real authority to the Apostles and then several examples where the Apostles exercises that Authority even over the "house" churches. God Bless, K.D.

Ok just to make my motivations clear, I am not going to start a defence of the Catholic church. There is much politics and misrepresented history we would have to wade through, but that is not where this needs to go. I am simply establishing the facts as laid out by the bible as to what Jesus set up as his Church and what his plan for his Church was. So I think we all agree that Jesus set up one church when he left. He set up leaders which he gave special authority through the Holy spirit. He did not promise this authority to each individual among the Church. This individual interpretation is what has led so many in different directions. We clearly see how the Apostles fought this very notion. When it comes to the safeguarding of the Truth, Scripture, You and I do not have the authority given to us by God. This does not mean that we should not read and study scripture, far be it, we absolutely should. However when it comes to disputes in interpretation of scripture who has the promise of God to safe guard it. It is not the individual. So if some individual decides they disagree with the Church that has Gods promise and starts their own church. Does this new church also 'enjoy" the same promise from God or have they strayed from God and the Holy Spirit. Many of you will say that the one church at the time was corrupted around the time of Constantine and in fact then strayed from the Holy Spirit. That is a whole different debate and would side track the issue so lets just "live" with that assumption (for this thread) We know the Apostles taught and "ordained" disciples to carry on what they had started. God did promise that he would guide the Church for all times. So, Given this common understanding that indeed the Apostles were being guided by the holy Spirit and the leaders they appointed were subsequently being led by the Holy Spirit, for this was Gods promise clearly stated in scripture, Then we absolutely must try to see what these people taught about any dispute in scripture. If we claim that our or anyone's interpretation is correct in contradiction to those we know have the promise of God, Who is being deluded. We know the Church was being guided when they brought us the new testament, If you don't agree with this then throw your Bible away it would then be worthless. So, Individualism is not Gods plan. Multiple interpretations of the same scripture is not Gods plan. If you want to know Gods truth, we must go back to his plan and stick with it. Only there, will we find his promise to always lead his Church. All other plans stray from this promise. And yes that means we will have to trust God to use fallible humans to safe guard the truth. So it really comes down to, Do you Trust God, or do you trust yourself. God Bless, K.D. *laugh* Holy...you sure took a lot out of that little post...I'm agreeing with everything you just said! (just go back to my prevoius posts to see where and how and why) I'm just rather confused about why you quoted THAT post. Also...could you maybe divide things up into paragraphs? It's REALLY hard to read a continuous block of writing that long. I quoted your phrase because I liked the part about fallible humans. It was not a post only in reply to you. Sorry if came across that way, and I will work on my grammar K.D.

If during the times of the Apostles a small group of believers were gathering in their homes and not following the teachings of the Apostles, What would have been their reaction to this small group. According to scripture does this small group have the Promise of God to protect his truth. The answer is no. Sorry but your independent small home church does not have the promise from God. Can a group of people gather in small groups, absolutely, but not to the exclusion of the Church and the authority given to it by God. You claim that your small group will be led by the Holy Spirit, But this was not the Plan established by Jesus. It is contrary to his plan. Where in scripture does it say Gods plan failed and it is ok to follow a different plan. Are you putting your trust in God. Or trust in your own plan. God set up his church with people in charged filled with the Holy Spirit. He has never relegated this authority to the individuals among the church. If so show me where in scripture he did this? Gods Church has fallible men guided by the Holy Spirit placed in charge to safe guard the scriptures. That is Gods formula. Does your plan follow Gods plan? If not, you are trusting in yourself and not God. Are you brave enough to actually trust God? Do you have Faith enough to actually trust Gods plan? God Bless, K.D.

Ok just to make my motivations clear, I am not going to start a defence of the Catholic church. There is much politics and misrepresented history we would have to wade through, but that is not where this needs to go. I am simply establishing the facts as laid out by the bible as to what Jesus set up as his Church and what his plan for his Church was. So I think we all agree that Jesus set up one church when he left. He set up leaders which he gave special authority through the Holy spirit. He did not promise this authority to each individual among the Church. This individual interpretation is what has led so many in different directions. We clearly see how the Apostles fought this very notion. When it comes to the safeguarding of the Truth, Scripture, You and I do not have the authority given to us by God. This does not mean that we should not read and study scripture, far be it, we absolutely should. However when it comes to disputes in interpretation of scripture who has the promise of God to safe guard it. It is not the individual. So if some individual decides they disagree with the Church that has Gods promise and starts their own church. Does this new church also 'enjoy" the same promise from God or have they strayed from God and the Holy Spirit. Many of you will say that the one church at the time was corrupted around the time of Constantine and in fact then strayed from the Holy Spirit. That is a whole different debate and would side track the issue so lets just "live" with that assumption (for this thread) We know the Apostles taught and "ordained" disciples to carry on what they had started. God did promise that he would guide the Church for all times. So, Given this common understanding that indeed the Apostles were being guided by the holy Spirit and the leaders they appointed were subsequently being led by the Holy Spirit, for this was Gods promise clearly stated in scripture, Then we absolutely must try to see what these people taught about any dispute in scripture. If we claim that our or anyone's interpretation is correct in contradiction to those we know have the promise of God, Who is being deluded. We know the Church was being guided when they brought us the new testament, If you don't agree with this then throw your Bible away it would then be worthless. So, Individualism is not Gods plan. Multiple interpretations of the same scripture is not Gods plan. If you want to know Gods truth, we must go back to his plan and stick with it. Only there, will we find his promise to always lead his Church. All other plans stray from this promise. And yes that means we will have to trust God to use fallible humans to safe guard the truth. So it really comes down to, Do you Trust God, or do you trust yourself. God Bless, K.D.

I am recommending that we DO the plan. I think Jesus planned ahead, and He is not stunned by this day's issues. I do believe that Jesus still gives us ministers at His chosing to help us, that teach the bible, and that stay in the Holy Ghost. I am also specifically recommending that ANYTHING that is clearly spoken against in the scriptures (such as establishing of divisions)(1 Corinthians 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?) we carefully AVOID and speak against to warn others against that practice. 1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 3 John 1:8-10 (King James Version) We therefore ought to receive such, that we might be fellowhelpers to the truth. I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not. Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church. They dealt with this same stuff in their day, and they did not consider it a small thing. Excellent, now we are getting some where. Yes the wall is coming down. So then How did the Apostles pass on the Authority given to them by Jesus? K.D.

anyone??? I think it is one of those mysteries we have no reference to understand, It is beyond our experience and comprehension. K.D.

So everyone that has a bible has all truth, fair enough. Does possessing a bible cause you to be saved? Does owning a bible give you revelation? Or do we still need the Holy Ghost to lead and guide us into all truth which is contained in the bible, or has the Holy Ghost been retired from His work also? I have known of very sincere Christian missionaries that worshiped by themselves for ten years before God gave them one converted soul. By your statement, they were not doing the will of God? And the shut in that has no one to fellowship with, do they also sin because the keep their relationship alive without having others to stand with them? A denomination does not happen suddenly nor accidently. It is a methodically planned out legal entity that has absolutely no scriptural basis to exist. It is an invention of men to focus authority, funding, and all other resources into a very limited group of men's hands to choose on behalf of a large group of people whom will be included and whom will be excluded, without regard to whether the excluded one is a Christian or not. I say DON'T DIVIDE. Again I would have to challenge you to look into what it was like before there were denominations...when it was all governed by the Roman Catholic Church. Yes, in the days of the Apostles there wasn't even that...but in the days of the Apostles the population of the world and the population of the Church was a LOT smaller. We're long past those days. So...do you have a better (practical, attainable) solution? Ah but there in lies the problem. We are moving away from the plan that Jesus set in motion and trying to create a "better" solution. Do you think Jesus knew his church would grow to the size it is now. Does the Bible tell us anywhere that his plan for the Church failed and needed to be changed? Mark 16: 15) And he said to them: Go ye into the whole world, and preach the gospel to every creature) ., to govern (Matt, 18: 18 (Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven) .; John 20: 21)(He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. ) , (Matt, 28: 20 (Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world) (Luke 10: 16 [(He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me) Matt, 18: 17) (And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican., and to use the divine means of sanctification. John 20: 22 (When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost.) Here we see that Jesus clearly establishes his church to be the guardian of the truth, and he put his Apostles in charge of his Church with all the authority necessary through the Holy Spirit. Notice he did not give this authority to all the individuals in the Church but only his chosen ones. And he says if they will not listen to you they do not listen to me. So from Christ death and resurrection on it is clear that Christ Church is led by the Apostles only. The authority lies with them only. So what happened after the Apostles died. Did Christ plan for his church die as well? God Bless, K.D.

This is a better solution. Better solution than what? What does the Bible tell us. How did the Apostles pass on the authority of their teaching. How did the first Church expand it's teaching yet make sure that some individual did not lead it astray. Your example of Baptism was very good. One church teaches one thing on Baptism and another church teaches the complete opposite. One of these Denominations is correct and one is not. By your proposed solution each individual should be able to pray fervently and receive the correct guidance form the Holy Spirit. I would venture that people on both side of this issue have done this very thing, and they went in opposite directions. Does the Holy Spirit really lead one into truth and one into deception, I hardly think so. The Bible tell us how Jesus will safe guard his truth, How he will safe guard the scriptures. What does the bible tell us? God Bless, K.D. ps. This is not specifically about Baptism, that is only an example.