Kansasdad

Then you assume wrong. K.D.

I agree with this completely, I think humility is absolutely the key. Jesus is very harsh on Pride. Now what I find interesting is then in Matthew 10 Jesus says this, 10`Beware! -- ye may not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you, that their messengers in the heavens do always behold the face of my Father who is in the heavens, This is saying that these humble faithful have a messenger in heaven. In another translation it refers to their Angle in heaven. What are your thought on each of us having a messenger in heaven. God Bless, Kansas Dad

Associated Press: ANKARA, Turkey - Turkey

This makes me sick....but once you start down the slippery slope...... Kansas Dad

Matthew: 4And so, the one who makes himself as little as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of Heaven. 5'Anyone who welcomes one little child like this in my name welcomes me. When Jesus is talking about a little child like this, Who is he refering to? I see this as a person who has child like faith, lacking pride, completely trusting of God. This could be a child or a 90 year old person. Your thoughts, Kansas Dad

Wouldn

The Bible teaches that the confessing of sins is a usual requisite for obtaining forgiveness. "Speak unto the children of Israel. When a man or woman shall commit any sin that men commit . . . Then they shall confess their sin which they have done,. . ."

Again the context is completely different and more accurately it would be interpreted as filled with Grace, not full of Grace. This is used like Ephesians 1:6 It is contextually and grammatically different and you can not equate the two the same meaning as the verse in Luke. With Stephen the word is used differently, it is not used exactly the same. Stephen was filled with the Holy spirit after the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. As used to describe Mary the Angel indicates that she was already full of Grace, prepared ahead of time to be an acceptable vessel for the Christ Child. Stephen was filled, (active) at the time, because of his faith. As far as responding to grammatical inaccuracies, I have already shown you that grammatically the correct interpretation is Full of Grace, but here it is again, The Word Pictures in the New Testament, by the renowned Protestant Greek scholar A.T. Robertson, expounds Luke 1:28 as follows: "Highly favoured" (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of chartoo and means endowed with grace ("charis"), enriched with grace as in Ephesians. 1:6, . . . The Vulgate gratiae plena "is right, if it means 'full of grace which thou hast received'; (Plummer).[ Robertson, Archibald T., Word Pictures in the New Testament, Nashville: Broadman Press, 1930, 6 volumes, vol. 2, p.13] ( please take special note of the difference in endowed with Grace and enriched with Grace) It is certain that kecharitomene is directly concerned with the idea of "grace," since, as Vine noted, it is derived from the root word charis, whose literal meaning is "grace. The word "Charis" is translated by the King James Version, for example, 129 times (out of 150 total appearances) as "grace". "It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." (Blass & DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament, Chicago: Univ. of Chicago Press, 1961, p.166; Smyth, H.W., Greek Grammar, Cambridge: Harvard Univ. Press, 1968, sec. 1852:b. ) We also have the another Protestant Greek scholar John Nolland, who expounds the Greek word "kecharitomene" as found in Luke 1:28 as follows: "Luke 1:28...kecharitomene is a quite rare Hellanistic verb (only found elsewhere in the NT at Eph. 1:6 in the active) Etymologically it should mean 'To be furnished with Grace" (Word Biblical Commentary, volume 35A, Pg 50, Nelson, 1989 ) ( please also note that this quote was from a Protestant Greek scholar John Nolland, NOT from Kansas Dad) Thus, in just this one verse, pregnant with meaning and far-reaching implications, the uniqueness of Mary is strongly indicated, and the Immaculate Conception can rightly be deemed entirely consistent with the meaning of this passage Please also not the dates, 1930, 1961,1968, and 1989, so don't tell me newer information is available that improved their ability to translate. Eric you claim that I have presented inaccurate grammatical and contextual arguments, however recognized Greek scholars refute your claims, it is you that has the grammar and context wrong. I really have nothing more to add to this, I have as always appreciated your spirited debate, you are always a challenge. I really feel we have hijacked the thread and out of respect to the OP we should get back to the subject of remittance of sins. God Bless, K.D.

Again there are some inaccuracies above: 1. We have not agreed that fullness is the best transation. We have agreed it could be possible, but it is not demanded from the text. There are scholars on both sides. 2. When you refer to Ephesians 1:6 being in the active and Luke 1:28 being in the perfect, you are not comparing apples to oranges. "Active" refers to the voice. "Perfect" refers to the tense. The tense describes completeness or time. The voice describes the relation of the subject of the sentence to the verb. It is the use of the perfect tense in Luke 1:28 that would allow for a possible landing on fullness or completeness. The tense of Ephesians 1:6 is the aorist. The aorist also speaks of completed action in the past with results in the present. Thus most English versions translate the Aorist in the past tense: to the praise of His glorious grace that He favored us with in the Beloved. Ephesians 1:6 CSB It can also have cumulative sense as the perfect can (meaning completeness or fullness). The voice of the passage in Luke 1:28 in in the passive. The voice of the passage in Ephesians 1:6 is the active. Voice does not address time or completeness. The passive voice in Luke 1:28 does not mean that the event is not currently occuring. The passive voice indicates that the subject of the sentence (in this case Mary) is not performing the action described by the participle. The subject in this case is the recipient. In Ephesians 1:6 the voice is active, indicating that the subject (God) is performing the action of the verb himself (giving grace to us). In both cases it is God giving the favor. In both cases it is completed (Aorist tense and Perfect tense). Remember, tense indicates time, voice indicates how the subject of the sentence relates to the verb. 3. You state that in Ephesians 1:6 the reason God is bestowing his favor is because of their faith in Jesus. I do not see that in Ephesians 1:6. In fact, Ephesians 1:4-6 indicate the opposite of what you are saying: for He chose us in Him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless in His sight. In love He predestined us to be adopted through Jesus Christ for Himself, according to His favor and will, to the praise of His glorious grace that He favored us with in the Beloved. Ephesians 1:4-6 CSB So it seems from these passages that the basis of God's favor is not anything we have done, but his own gracious choice, and before the foundation of the world (just like Mary), Again your conclusions are not correct, because your premises are false grammatically and contextually. You have confused tense and voice. You still have not addressed Stephen in Acts. Lets take a look at the actual verses in Ephesians: Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Eric as you always say....context, context, context. Paul is obviously talking to the early Christians. He is talking about the Grace received by them through the Blood of Jesus Christ, not Grace they had since before time. If this were the case then there would have been no need for Jesus to have died on the cross. Obviously with Mary he can not be talking of Grace received through the Blood of Jesus. Sorry but it is you who is taking the two and comparing apples to oranges. As far as Stephen, one step at a time. Would you plese give me the book and verse where kecharitomene was used in refference to Stephen. K.D.

Eric, I just provided over 20 different sources of scholars some Catholic, Some Protestant who disagree with you. They clearly agree that "full of" is a proper understanding of how the word was used. You know I love ya but I am going to have to go with the experts on this one. And regardless, it also is clearly talking about Grace and not highly favored as Pointer was trying to say. God Bless, K.D. But you have not adressed the key issue. It is not as you said that it was used only of Jesus and Mary. It was used Of Jesus, Mary, Stephen, and all believers. So how does this make Mary special. I noticed you ommited that part of my objection which is the key portion and the question on whcih the issue hangs. Even if I were to grant fullness. It is not unique to mary It is not that I have not addressed the key issue, it is that we must establish all the frame work step by step or we just spin circles. So (be it reluctant) we have established that " full of" and Grace are proper translations of what Luke wrote. Now when looking at Ephesians 1:6 we see the word is used differently, it is active. Indicating an event that is occurring. God is bestowing upon them Grace because of their faith in Jesus. With Mary it shows an event that was already completed. It shows that God filled her with Grace prior to the event in preparation of the event. So yes it clearly shows that Mary was uniquely prepared prior to the angels visit. Mary is indeed a very special vessel prepared in advance by God to bare the Christ Child. She was not just an ordinary woman favored to carry God in her womb. She was Graced fully before hand in preparation of the unique blessing. God Bless, K.D.

Eric, I just provided over 20 different sources of scholars some Catholic, Some Protestant who disagree with you. They clearly agree that "full of" is a proper understanding of how the word was used. You know I love ya but I am going to have to go with the experts on this one. And regardless, it also is clearly talking about Grace and not highly favored as Pointer was trying to say. God Bless, K.D.

I am not sure what you mean here. The word used in Luke 1:28 is a verbal participle perfect passive vocative feminine singular of the verb Xaritaw meaning to bestow favor upon. It is also used in Ephesians 1:6 (in the Aorist indicative active) and pictures the grace that God has bestowed on us. John 1:14 does not use the same word. It uses the noun Xaris in a totally separate contruction. John 1:14 adds the modifier pleres which means "full" to the noun xaris for grace (pleres karitos). This modifier is not used in Luke 1:28. So the only person in the Bible that the literal phrase "full of grace" was to reference was Jesus. The phrase "full of" in Luke 1:28 was added by the english translators. It is not there in the greek and not implied in the participle. Most versions I am looking at translate it as highly favored You Asked, sorry it is so long. Should Luke 1:28 Read "Grace" or "Highly favored" "And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, FULL OF GRACE, the LORD IS WITH THEE..."(Luke 1:28) The Annotation for Luke 1:28 in the 1582 Catholic Rheims Translation of the Bible in to English says: " 28Full of grace) Note the excellence prerogatives of our B. Lady, and abhor those Heretics which make her no better than other vulgar woman, and therefor to take from her fullness of grace, they say here, Hail freely beloved, contraire to all significations of the Greek word, which is at the left, endued with Grace, as S. Paul useth it Eph. I. by S. Chrysostoms interpretation : or rather Full of grace, as-both* Greek and Latin fathers have always here understood it, and the Latin's also read it, namely S. Ambrose thus, Well is she only called full of grace, who only obtained grace which no other woman deserved, to be replenished with the author of grace. And if they did as well know the nature of these Greek words, as they would seem very skillful, they might easily observe that they signify fullness, as when them selves translate the like word (Luc. 16,20) full of force. Beza, Ulcerous." . The translation "Full of Grace" instead of "Highly Favored" or "freely beloved" is far more accurate to the Greek. The Ancient Syriac, Arabic and Latin versions bare the truth of this out. The translation "Full of Grace" was also approved by the early Christian fathers. This Scan is from The Holy Bible From The Ancient Eastern Manuscripts by Gorge M. Lamsa's. It is a translation of the ancient Eastern Aramaic Version of the Scriptures called the "Peshitta" . As we can the see third century Aramaic supports "Full of Grace" as the correct meaning of the passage. (sorry scan images don't transfer) St. Luke wrote kecharitomene [a perfect passive participle of the verb charitoo]. In secular Greek charis meant charm, that which attracts favor. It was used to translate Old Testament Hebrew hen which first meant a favorable attitude of God to us, then the expression of that favor, then what He gives as a result of that favor. namely hokmah or beraka, wisdom or blessing. (Oo verbs means to put someone in the state expressed by the root, which here is charis. ) The word was not used broadly like NT charis which came to mean any gift from God to us. The net result was that charis could mean either favor or grace. But now, a thing often overlooked: if God merely sat there and gave nothing but a smile, favor, then the human would do the good by his own power - which would be Pelagianism. So when we translate favor, we must keep this in mind, and usually would do better to translate grace. So then charitoo will mean to put into grace. Luke 1:28 in the 1611 King James Version has in the Margin notes "Much Graced" [Click here to see the scan of the full page]. This Scan is taken from the Thomas Nelson reprint of the 1611 King James Version of the Bible. Further, in English we may use a noun to mark a person as the ultimate in his class. Kecharitomene is used here as her personal name. So just as Mr. Tennis is the ultimate in the category of tennis. --therefore she would be "Miss Grace", much the same as full of grace. The early Church father St. Jerome [who the translators of the 1611 King James Version called " a most learned father, and the best linguist without controversy, of his age, or of any that went before him,".(From the Translators' Preface to the 1611 KJV)] translated "kecharitomene" as "gratiae plena" meaning 'full of grace which thou hast received" when creating The Vulgate. The Rheims new Testament [1582] has "Full of Grace". Many of the early Protestant versions also accepted "Grace" to be the proper translation. This Beautiful picture of the Annunciation of the Angle Gabriel to the blessed Virgin Mary, graced the Title page of the New Testament in the 1717 Printing of the KJV. Click here to see the full Scan. This leaf is part of Part of my personal collection. Wyclif's Version [1380] the verse says "Full of Grace" Tyndale's Version [1534] the verse says "Full of Grace" Cranmer's Version [1539] the verse says "Full of Grace" Geneva [1599] says in the Margin Notes "might be rendered, 'full of favour and grace, " [ The Link is to a Scan from a 1608 Printing of the Geneva Bible] Authorized Version or KJV [1611] says in the Margin notes "Much Graced" Polyglott Bible [1838] says in the Margin notes "or Much Graced" Revised Version [1885] says in the Margin Notes: "Endowed with Grace". American Standard Version [1901] says in the Margin Notes: "or Endowed with Grace". Scofield Edition [1909, revised in 1914] says in the Margin Notes "or Endued with Grace" New Standard Reference Bible [1934] says in the Margin notes "Much Graced" The Holy Bible From The Ancient Eastern Manuscripts by Gorge M. Lamsa's [1957] the verse says "peace be to you, O full of grace" The Amplified [1958] in the verse (In brackets) "endowed with grace" with a foot note that says "literal translation" A literal Translation by Jay P. Green [1985] the verse says "And entering, the angel said to her, Hail, one having received grace!..." The Interlinear Greek-English New Testament, by Jay P. Green [2nd edition 1985] the verse says "...Hail, one receiving grace!... The Word Pictures in the New Testament, by the renowned Protestant Greek scholar A.T. Robertson, expounds Luke 1:28 as follows: "Highly favoured" (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of chartoo and means endowed with grace ("charis"), enriched with grace as in Ephesians. 1:6, . . . The Vulgate gratiae plena "is right, if it means 'full of grace which thou hast received'; (Plummer).[ Robertson, Archibald T., Word Pictures in the New Testament, Nashville: Broadman Press, 1930, 6 volumes, vol. 2, p.13] It is certain that kecharitomene is directly concerned with the idea of "grace," since, as Vine noted, it is derived from the root word charis, whose literal meaning is "grace. The word "Charis" is translated by the King James Version, for example, 129 times (out of 150 total appearances) as "grace". "It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." (Blass & DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament, Chicago: Univ. of Chicago Press, 1961, p.166; Smyth, H.W., Greek Grammar, Cambridge: Harvard Univ. Press, 1968, sec. 1852:b. ) We also have the another Protestant Greek scholar John Nolland, who expounds the Greek word "kecharitomene" as found in Luke 1:28 as follows: "Luke 1:28...kecharitomene is a quite rare Hellanistic verb (only found elsewhere in the NT at Eph. 1:6 in the active) Etymologically it should mean 'To be furnished with Grace" (Word Biblical Commentary, volume 35A, Pg 50, Nelson, 1989 ) Thus, in just this one verse, pregnant with meaning and far-reaching implications, the uniqueness of Mary is strongly indicated, and the Immaculate Conception can rightly be deemed entirely consistent with the meaning of this passage. More Greek References for "Full of Grace" found in Luke 1:28. "Chartoo can mean to Grace as in Luke 1:28 and Eph. 1:6, provided we understand that this grace is endowed by God..." [The Pocket Word Study of the New Testament, Atlanta Ga., Bernard & Brothers publishing, 1982, pg 348] "Chartoo...Highly favored as in Luke 1:28 meaning to bestow grace upon...it really does not mean to show favor, but to give grace to" [Lexicon To The Old and New Testaments, edited by Spiros Zodhiates, TH.D, 1988 Iowa Falls, Iowa, World Bible Publications Inc.Pg. 1739] "The fifth century scholar Jerome was correct in translating the Greek to gratiae plena

That is only what the 'KJ'V says- and the 'KJ'V is certainly not Scripture. This is the second occasion in a few days in which error has been taught in this forum on the basis of the 'KJ'V's rendition. Here is an accurate rendition of the Greek: 'And coming in, he said to her, "Greetings, favoured one! The Lord is with you."' Luke 1:28-29 NASB That is not just my personal rendition, it is that of a highly respected, conservative translation. If you want to dispute it, you will need more resources than mere translations. Not lucky, no, but then your statement is erroneous. John does not use the same wording for Jesus as Luke does for Mary. Serious commentators do not use translations. It might be added that the word 'hail' is ambiguous (a fact that sly Romanists take advantage of) and the KJV's rendition is a complete mess. It is no surprise that Roman Catholics have made so little complaint about a supposedly Protestant translation, and use it themselves on occasion! You assume much but know little. That was not a quote from the KJV. It was quoted from Douay-Rheims Luke 1:28 - "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you." These are the words spoken by God and delivered to us by the angel Gabriel (who is a messenger of God). Thus, when Catholics recite this verse while praying the Rosary, they are uttering the words of God. Luke 1:28 - also, the phrase "full of grace" is translated from the Greek word "kecharitomene." This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just "highly favored." She has been perfected in grace by God. "Full of grace" is only used to describe one other person - Jesus Christ in John 1:14. Do inlighten us as to what version of the Bible you are using? K.D.

This is an article that explains it better than I could paraphrase. I do apologize for the "Labels" used, I hope they do not distract from the message. Praying to the Saints The historic Christian practice of asking our departed brothers and sisters in Christ

Gabriel in Luke says only that Mary was favoured- or lucky, in secular terms. 'And coming in, he said to her, "Greetings, favoured one! The Lord is with you."' Luke 1:28-29 NASB There is no necessary merit in being favoured; God sends His rain on the righteous and unrighteous. Ultimately, God has no favourites, and Mary had to repent or perish like everyone else must. No-one knows what her eternal fate will be. There is only one way to God, and that is by the offence of the cross, and there are no soft and easy paths that allow human pride. Wow talk about changing scripture to fit a theology. Here is what the scriptures say. Luke 1: 28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. And here the same phrase is used again describing Jesus when he was formed in Mary, and became man to dwell on earth. John 1: 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. I don't think it would be correct to say Jesus was a favored one or lucky. K.D. Here is another question for you, why do some get so upset about the "Hail Mary" prayer when all it does is quote scripture. Why do people get so upset when people are quoting scripture in prayer. Here is the exact prayer, hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with the, blessed at thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of they womb Jesus. Look at the two verses of scripture above and it is almost a word for word quote of the scriptures themselves. Why would scripture make so many "Christians" upset. God Bless, K.D.

Gabriel in Luke says only that Mary was favoured- or lucky, in secular terms. 'And coming in, he said to her, "Greetings, favoured one! The Lord is with you."' Luke 1:28-29 NASB There is no necessary merit in being favoured; God sends His rain on the righteous and unrighteous. Ultimately, God has no favourites, and Mary had to repent or perish like everyone else must. No-one knows what her eternal fate will be. There is only one way to God, and that is by the offence of the cross, and there are no soft and easy paths that allow human pride. Wow talk about changing scripture to fit a theology. Here is what the scriptures say. Luke 1: 28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. And here the same phrase is used again discribing Jesus when he was formed in Mary, and became man to dwell on earth. John 1: 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. I don't think it would be correct to say Jesus was a favored one or lucky. K.D.

Hey Eric H... I am not sure I agree with all of your points on " the proper way to interpret scripture thread, but how would it fair when applied to the particular verse in question. Grammatically was the author referring to the apostles specifically, and to the sins of the people, Where does grammar point. Also in context. What was going on at the time Jesus said this to the Apostles, does it give us better understanding. God Bless, Kansas Dad

I would think it was obvious, but the Catholic Church does not teach that Mary created Jesus/God. It does teach that she was the earthly vessel that God used to created the humanness of Jesus God. They also teach that she was a very special vessel that was kept, with Gods grace, worthy of creating Jesus/man, which comes directly from scripture. ( I can find the verse that tells us Mary was full of Grace if you feel the need to challenge) I also have the feeling that WhySoBlind know this but is choosing to try to add confusion and inflammatory suggestions. God Bless, Kansas Dad

all of which may be true but the facts are that the new SAT if far more rigorous than the old test. The new test is taking over 5 1/2 hrs to take where the old test was just over 3 1/2 hr on average. WE are not comparing apples to apples and thus not much can be concluded from the difference in the scores.

Well, it was all part of God's plan...so..... But then arises the thought of...suicide.....does that knock you of God's Heaven list..... the topic has taken off faster than I can get out of purgatory! Help!!! You need some intercessory prayer

Justification...lets take a further look. Faith Justifies Initially, but Works Perfect and Complete Justification James 2:24 - the phrase "faith alone" (the Greek "pisteos monon") only occurs once in the Bible. "Man is justified by works and NOT faith alone." , No where in Scripture does it say that man is justified or saved by "faith alone." To the contrary, man is not justified by faith alone. A person is justified by faith and works acting together, which comes solely from God

Actually there is scripture to support "I have been saved, I am saved, and I will be saved". These are the verses and My interpretation of them. I know the majority here will disagree, and I am not going to argue. I will post the verses, you can read them and then read the responses and come to your own conclusions. I have found debating on this forum not to be fruitful. God Bless, K.D. . I Have Been Saved (past event) Rom. 8:24 - for in this hope we were saved (but, again, why "hope" if salvation is a certainty?) Eph. 2:5,8 - for by grace you have been saved through faith. 2 Tim. 1:9 - He saved us and called us through grace and not by virtue of our own works outside of His grace. Titus 3:5 - He saved us in virtue of His own mercy, and not by our deeds. . I Am Being Saved (present event) 1 Cor. 1:18 - for the word of the cross is folly to those perishing, but for to us who are being saved, it is the power of God. Salvation is not a one-time event. It is a process of perseverance through faith, hope and love. 2 Cor. 2:15 - for we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved. Salvation is a continual process. Phil. 2:12 - we are working out our salvation through fear and trembling. Salvation is an ongoing process. 1 Peter 1:9 - you obtain the salvation of your souls as the outcome of your faith. Working out our salvation in fear and trembling is a lifelong process. I Will Be Saved (future event) Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 - again, Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. Salvation is a past, present and future event (not a one-time event at an altar call). Mark 16:16

I have felt this very same, far too many times on this board. But please do realize that there are many who read and never post. For those that are seeking the truth needs to be told. thank you Leonard, Pax and Spook God Bless, Kansas Dad