Trust & Obey

Or if they do, as in the case of the Prodigal Son, they will ultimately return to God.

All of us can sin deliberately, and do at one time or another, this is called a freewill. No one is perfect. Your argument is a textbook example of a person who believes in once saved, always saved, and this is the exact same thing I was taught growing up in the Baptist Church. All we have to do is profess that Jesus Christ died on the cross and we are saved...that's it, plain and simple. And if a person goes and does horrible things after professing that Jesus Christ died on the cross for us, than that person was never saved in the first place. How logical does this sound? It is very easy to say I believe in Jesus and he died on the cross for me. It is another thing to live ones life for Christ. And even then we are going to sin from time to time. What does scripture have to say on this. Read: Mt. 7:21 "not everyone saying, Lord, Lord will inherit the kingdom. Mt. 24:13 "those who perserve to the end will be saved." (why would you have to perserve to the end if you are already saved?) Rom 11:22 "remain in his kindness or you will be cut off" (How can we be cut off we are saved?) Phil 2:12 "work out your salvation in fear and trembling" (we are saved why do we have to work out our salvation through fear and trembling?) Gal 5:4 "seperated from Christ you've fallen from grace." (how can we be seperated from God, we are saved?) Your hunch about your pastor is very correct. Heaven is the greatest thing we could ever imagine and even then we can't even beign to understand what it will be like. Do you think it is that easy to get into heaven, by just saying I believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for my sins. And one last note, Satan believes that Jesus Christ died on the cross....is he in heaven. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Pax, you need to go back and read the Parable of the Sower. In it Jesus explained that there are 4 basic responses to the gospel. One outright rejects it. He is not saved. Two receive it gladly and then fall away after a period of time. These are not saved either. Lastly, one receives it and it bears fruit in their life. This is the only one that is saved. The two that received it and fell away later were not saved. Although, they certainly appeared to be in the early days/weeks/months after their profession. But, only the seed that fell on good soil actually bears fruit unto salvation. This is in perfect keeping with what "your Baptist upbringing" taught you. There will be many who profess Christ. Some will follow Him for their whole lives, others will fall away after a period of time. Those that fall away after a period of time are simply demonstrating that their soil was not good. These people were never saved to begin with and their falling away simply demonstrates that. Remember what John said: 1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

2Ti 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. 2Ti 2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier. Paul, interestingly, uses war as a metaphor for our life in Christ. We are told not to entangle ourselves in the affairs of this life so that we may please Christ. Now, those who are in the military are pretty much owned by the government and have practically ZERO freedom. How could one argue that being in the military and in complete subjection is not "entangled in the affairs of this life?" Honestly, I cannot think of another state of being, other than military service, where such a dramatic degree of entanglement exists.

Eric, that was John the Baptist speaking, not Jesus. Jesus did speak about fighting and such, albeit in a different context. Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Yes. 1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. I still find trouble with this passage. Christians do, at many times, fall into sin. Paul acknowledges this as does John. Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. Gal 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. 1Jo 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 1Jo 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. 1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. John seems to have contradictory thoughts in the same passage. First he says a brother can sin a sin not unto death, there is such a sin... then he goes on to say that whoever is born of God sinneth not. This is why the debate rages on. There are other passages that indicate that someone can fall under the condemnation of sin even after being saved, such as: Jam 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Jam 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. Bro Eric, what's your take on that James passage?

I think you mean "Persevering of the Saints."

Ovedya, I found your words very true and applicable to today. It is so easy to get thrown off of our mission. It has oft been said, "the main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing." Returning to that first love of Christ where we gladly surrendered all that we are and all that we had unto Him simply for the privelege of knowing Him. Phi 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Phi 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, Phi 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: Phi 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; Just yesterday I noticed that other things had crept into my life that, although not wrong by themselves, were taking up too much of my personal time. Things like magazines. I threw the magazines away and have decided to cancel my subscription. I want to return to that place of total consecration where I am Christ's 100%. Not as it is now where it stands at probably 50%. Granted, I do have a family now that I didn't back when I got saved. So, naturally I will not be able to devote myself to God as much as freely as I did in my single years... Paul acknowledges this very fact: 1Co 7:32 But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: 1Co 7:33 But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife. But, besides the necessary things of family... there are many areas of "discretionary interest" where we have a choice of how to spend our free time. TV, magazines, newspapers, the internet, even Worthy Boards, are all avenues of media competing for our attention. None of these mediums is wrong, per se, but if the effect is draining away your discretionary time then perhaps it is sinful in one's life. Eph 5:15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, Eph 5:16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. Col 4:5 Walk in wisdom toward them that are without, redeeming the time. Having said that, and in accordance with the theme of the song: Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. Rom 13:13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof. In Christ...

With Pax's reply it sure is tempting, ain't it?

That is a very tough question, because only God knows the heart of people. As people we have to judge others by their fruit... that is, their actions. People's actions are the manifestation of their thoughts and heart. The Bible is on record that whoever has been born of God does not practice sin: 1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. But, in that same epistle we have the acknowledgement that we all sin at times and need to confess and receive forgiveness: 1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Also, Christians often go through periods of backsliding. I've been there myself. Jesus gave us the parable of the Prodigal Son coming to his senses and returning to his Father. The question thus arises: Did the prodigal son ever cease to be the son of the Father? I don't think so. The son may have been out of the Father's will, missing out on the blessings of his sonship, but I don't think he ever lost his status of being a son. When my son rebels against me...whether for a day or for a month... is he ever less my son? Do I ever tell him "you've done it this time. Be gone with you!" Of course not. But, there are those who profess Christ and have absolutely no claim to heaven. What it boils down to is this... if someone is not walking with the Lord in any meaningful way then we as Christians need to withdraw from that person: 1Co 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 1Co 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. We are not to associate with those who "are called brothers," but live according to the dictates of the flesh. They are not to be part of the Church without repentance: 1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Having said that; repentance is always the goal, never condemnation. Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. Gal 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

Good points. Another thing to remember is that Christianity is and always has been, a very liberating element in the lives of women. Women are historically suppressed and trampled in a culture without Christ. Look at the cultures around the world. It is really only in "Western Culture (i.e. culture that has been impacted by Christianity)" where women have equality and dignity. In all other "non-Christian cultures" you easily see how women are treated as less than equals. This is true in Asian cultures, Islamic cultures, and even in much of the Latin world. Those who argue that the Bible is sexist and chauvinistic simply do not know history. Just as the Captain is no better than the Private, so neither is the man better than the woman. They simply have different roles in God's hierarchy of the family and society.

Are you suggesting that a Christian cannot be a boxer or a practice fighting sports? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, not at all unless it is illegal somehow. That is sport and both parties know the rules and it is a test of skill and endurance, not rage and anger. The sporting violence I am talking about is the fights which occur during a football game, or the fights which occur during a basketball or baseball game, the name calling the trash talking, the endless hockey fights. Intentionally hurting someone in an illegal act during a sporting event would be an unacceptable form of violence for a Christian, even if it were culturally acceptable in the sport. Christ was very specific on individual violence and actually quite clear. We can't get around that. In our culture in the US many of the things Christ said to do will end up getting many of us men being called pansies or pussies, that is part of the cost of discipleship. I am not talking about defending our families from violence; I am talking about what most men end up fighting about, our pride and our toughness, or some silly argument or women. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Smalcad, I 100% agree with you (except for your use of that 2nd "p word" ). I enjoy MMA (mixed martial arts) and see nothing wrong with it. Though, many people find it too aggressive. It actually just looks that way. However, it is much safer of a sport than boxing. A hockey fight would most certainly be out of place for a Christian.

Great post, Ovedya.

Are you suggesting that a Christian cannot be a boxer or a practice fighting sports?

I don't like disagreeing with you, but... We live in New Testament times, not Old. I'm not saying we should throw it out or disregard it, there's an abundance of knowledge there. I don't see in the New Testament where we are instructed to or given the freedom to pick up arms against our fellow man. It simply goes against His commandments. Not trying to be difficult, it's just what I see. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Jesus told His disciples if they didn't have a sword, they should even go to the extremes of selling their winter clothes to buy one. What do you think they used swords for.....backscratchers??? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Leonard, I agree. The sword was for personal defense. I don't think the sword passage is endorsing wars, which is the subject of the thread.

I think it depends on the motive for the war. Usually it is greed. The desire for power, wealth, land, etc. As Christians I would argue that we shouldn't be involved in the military. Now, my belief in this goes against the teaching of the church group that I am affiliated with. But, I think for myself and I hold to views that are consistent with the Bible, not a denomination. This is the passage that tells me Christians should not engage in wordly wars or participate in the military: Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. We are not of this world. Therefore, we should not fight as the world does. We are simply pilgrims passing through. 1Pe 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. Phi 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: We need to fight for spiritual things, not carnal things. Spiritual things being the Word of God and the souls of men. There are many noble battles going on in the world, but the question is how important are they compared with the Great Commission? The good is often the enemy of the best. Let's not get distracted by side-issues.

Did you totally miss my post, or not understand it? Yes Halloween isn't a Christain Holiday, but that doesn't mean its a bad thing. And when it was originally celebrated (thousands of years before the bible even spoke of witchcraft) it was a celebration of life and the harvest. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Although that may be true (the history that you laid out)... Halloween today is associated with darkness and evil. Therefore, we must look at it in that context. The same argument is used for Christmas. December 25th is the ancient date of the Roman festival of Saturnalia. It was a pagan event and Christians should have no part of it. But, today December 25 is widely held as the celebration of the birth of Christ. Thus, I draw ZERO connection between Saturnalia and Christmas. Now, with Halloween the shoe is on the other foot. What wasn't so bad then is perceived to be evil now. Thus, that is the current context of the holiday.

Well said, Keith. I couldn't agree more. Christians must keep in mind that Halloween is indeed a "high holy day" in the Satanic world. I'm not legalistic about it. I allow my kids to dress up as characters (non-evil ones) and enjoy the festivities at our church. But, I would never take them to a "Haunted House" or other event that glorifies the demonic.

I would word it a little differently, in that it is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which makes us born again. Acts 22:16 is an account of Paul being born again, and Titus 3:5-7 explains what being born again is: "He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy SPirit, whom He poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our savior." <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Although the indwelling of the HS does indeed happen at conversion, the subject of being born-again is dealing with our spirit. It is our spirit that is dead in tresspasses and sins. God will only deal with man on the spiritual level. God will never relate to man carnally, or according to his flesh. Thus, the need for man's spirit to be reborn. So, although the HS does indwell the believer at regeneration, that is not the subject of the born-again experience.

First off, Paul appeals to the order of creation for his substantiation of the policy, thus we know it wasn't anything to do with "the culture." 1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. Paul's appeal to the order of creation definitely demonstrates that this transcends all cultures and ages. Regarding Phoebe... Phoebe was a deaconness, not a Pastor/Teacher. And, a deaconness in that age was merely a servant or assistant. It wasn't a role of any authority. Rom 16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant (Greek: diakonos) of the church which is at Cenchrea: The diakonos was not a Pastor (Greek: poimen) or a Teacher (Greek: didaskolos). Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors (Greek: poimen) and teachers (Greek: didaskolos); Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Based upon your definition of "usurp" I would argue that you are usurping the authority of Paul and the Holy Scriptures. Paul said it wasn't to be done and you're doing it. I would never want to undo, nor could I, what God has done in your life. Praise God for that. But, God's blessing does not equate to God's approval of everything we are doing in life. God blesses us in spite of ourselves sometimes. I know that is true in my life. God blesses me many times when I simply don't deserve it. All I am meaning to convey in saying this is that we cannot take the position that "what I'm doing must be right because I'm being blessed in the process."

Karen, that is a wonderful testimony and I can relate highly to it as I was involved in the drug seen in my BC years, too. Question: You explained how you don't "usurp authority of man." Although I disagree with the rationalization that you used... if that were the case, then the President isn't in authority either because he is subject to the Consititution. For that sake, nobody is ever in authority anywhere because everyone is subject to God and thus the passage in 1 Timothy is ridiculous. But, you acknowledged that you do teach men. 1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. How do you deal with that passage?

Amen. That is it. That is the simple Plan Of Salvation. What else is there>? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> What else is there? Heb 6:1 Therefore, having left the discourse of the beginning of Christ, let us go on to full growth, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Heb 6:2 of the baptisms, of doctrine, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. We must go on into maturity in Christ. Being born-again is the beginning of life in Christ, not the end of it.

The man is doing the preaching as he leans on the HS for guidance. The HS doesn't "possess" the Pastor while he is behind the pulpit. The question isn't "what you feel" or "what I feel." The question is "what does the Word of God say."

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev 20:15) "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." (Revelation 14:11) "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Revelation 20:10) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thanks. I would point out that 20:15 simply says they are cast into the lake of fire, nothing about 'eternity' there. 20:10 says the devil is cast into the lake of fire and shall be tormented forever and ever. The only one you've got, it appears (I'll have to go to my Bible later and look it up to be sure), is 14:11. Gotta' go walk the dogs; they're whining and pawing at the door! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Leonard, 14:11 is only talking about those who worship the beast and/or take his mark. Not the every day sinner that has not been given the task of that decision. The context of the subject there is that those who worship the beast have the same punishment of Satan and must also withstand the full wrath of God in the end. But whether or not is is eternal punishment, or punishment for eternity, my fondest hope is to not be among either.... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The goats also go to the place of the devil. Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: It isn't only limited to those who take the mark in the GT.

Seems a fitting punishment for one who worshipped Satan. But why should the Dalai Llama share the punishment of one who worshipped Satan? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Because those who are not Christ's are Satan's by default. Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.