jmwhalen

His son writes: "Lastly, the writers were not inspired, this is very important, only the original text, pen on paper if you will, is inspired. In no way were the writers inspired...." "original in your language" ___________________________________________________________ I agree with much of what you write(because it agrees with the Holy Bible). However, you may want to rethink your statements that " only the original text...is inspired", "original". There is no original text available today-they do not exist. As you well know, Psalms 12:6,7 is the LORD God's promise to preserve His word. So, where is "scripture"? I often wonder if people realize that the often repeated,standard , but meaningless claim that "God's word is found among all the available Greek manuscripts"(or Hebrew, Aramaic, Chaldean............) is equivalent to saying God's word can be found in a dictionary or the letters of the alphabet. And to refer to "the original Greek text" is pointless-that does not exist! perhaps 2 examples would clarify: 1. 2 Timothy 3:15: Timothy did not have "the original text"-and yet he had "the holy scriptures" 2. The Etheopian Eunuch Acts Chapter 8: He did not have "the original text", but he was reading "scripture"(8:31) The reason I point this out is what I call "expertism"-everyone is an expert("Experts say"."Analysts say"............), with the following disasterous result: Since the "originals" no longer exist,scholars and their opinions replace the Bible as the final authority-they replace God's authority with their own. If the Bible is inspired only in the "original autographs", which do not exist, some other authority must be substituted for them , whether that authority is revelation(charismatics, for eg.), a scholar, the "book of Mormon", the pope speaking ex-cathedra, etc., etc......And if the Bible is inspired only in "the original languages", only those who know those languages can read it, and these "language experts" become the final authority(no matter that most so-called Greek experts couldn't tell you the difference between a fraternity and a sorority)= "Thus saith the Greek...", which leads to my next point-How often do we hear "...to accurately teach the meaning of a verse, and since I personally don't have the seminary training in such languages, I depend on pastor-teachers who do know Greek, Hebrew........." Sounds a lot like " Romanism",i.e.," we are too stupid to figure this book out. You need to have "the Magisterium" led by the Pope explain what this verse means. You need to have a the pope, priest, nun or a "catechism" explain what this really means. You need an "expert" in the original languages of Hebrew and Greek to "really understand" this passage. Besides, we need to consult what the 'Latin' says in the original languages'. We need to consult with the 'scholars'. We are 'unlearned and ignorant'(Acts 4:13). Depend on us, the experts. No need to read the Bible, rely on us-we will check it out in "the original languages", we will consult the "original Greek". I hope you would consider this. Thanks In Christ John Whalen

Work in progress writes: "However, I am having trouble lately with this "inspired Word of God" thing. The world says that the Bible is "just a book, written by men, and fallible". And I can't point to any Scripture that proves to me what I've been taught all my life - that Scripture was literally breathed into the authors by God Himself, thereby making it absolutely infallible. Help? Thanks. " _____________________________________________________________ I cannot add anything additional to what was previously posted(and very well!) re. scriptural testimony on the inspiration of the scriptures. However, re. "the world says that the Bible is 'just a book, written by men,and fallible'", consider the following: The common objection to the notion of biblical inspiration is much like you stated, following along these lines, that is, scripture was only written by men, containing human ideas, and all human ideas are fallible/flawed. Therefore, the scripture/Bible is flawed. Pose this statement to the next person who says this(maybe a Jesus Seminar member!)-If all human ideas are fallible/flawed, then the idea that all human ideas are flawed is also a flawed idea. This is what is known as a "self destructing" argument, or an argument that "commits suicide". Those who use this argument have "sawn off the branch they are sitting on"! This is just another example of "self-refuting" arguments. I have posted a few on this board, but I thought I would repost: "There is no information". Ask: How did you obtain that information? Truth cannot be known. Ask: Is that a true statement?, or How do you know? There is no right or wrong. Ask: Is that right? Science is the only sound method of discovering truth. Ask: And what scientific experiment revealed this truth to you? I create my own reality. Ask: Really? There are no absolutes in this world. Ask: Are you absolutely confident of this? You cannot know anything for sure. Ask :Are you sure? I do not think you should impose your values on me. Ask: Aren't you doing the same thing by your statement? And on and on....! In Christ, John Whalen

Mobile21: I will present the gospel that saves to you, "...for it is the power of God unto salvation...."(Romans 1:16), and "...it is hid to them that are lost"(2 Cor, 4:3); "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen

I recently completed a study of the book of Job, which is about the sanctification of a saint(saint=one set apart for God's purpose, or separated to God), not the conversion of a sinner. For those who do not believe in the "afterlife", consider this: "God is not a man, that he should lie....." Numbers 23:19(Romans 3:4, 2 Tim. 2:13,Titus 1:2,Hebrews 6:18) ___________________________________________________________________ "And there were born unto him seven sons and three daughters." Job 1:2 "His substance also was seven thousand sheep,and three thousand camels, and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she asses, and a very great household;........." Job 1;3 "...also the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before." Job 42:10 Is this statement in Job 42:10 true? "What saith " the scripture of truth"(Daniel 10:21) ? "So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses." Job 42:12 So far, so good. But wait- "He had also seven sons and three daughters." Job 42:13 To be consistent with verses 1:3 compared with 42:12, per verse 42:10, shouldn't Job been given fourteen sons and six daughters,i.e., twice the number he had before they were "taken away"(1:21)? Verse 42:13 says he had seven sons and three daughters, not "twice as much as he had before"(42:10) Did the LORD lie? No! The LORD God "..is not a God of the dead, but of the living....(Luke 20:38, Mt. 22:32, Mk. 12:27,Jer. 10:10....and many more!) He considers Job's seven sons and three daughters that were killed(Job 1:19) still alive with Him! ( And also notice that Job did not arise(verse 1:20) until he had heard of the death of human beings,i.e., the material losses he suffered did not move him-it was only the loss of human life that grieved him-a great spiritual application for us believers). And also notice verse 42:16-Job lived to age 140- perhaps the prolongation of his life is a doubling of the age given in Psalms 90:10. What a book! As it is written, "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2 "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." Acts 17:11 "... what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. 1 Corinthians 15:32 To an athest: "Must we light a candle to see the sun?" In Christ and with Christ, John M. Whalen

Brother Wayne: Once again, "...Thou hast spoken well...."(Ex. 10:29). A brother told me much the same: repentant thief="dead to sin" The Lord Jesus Christ="died for sins" unrepentant thief="dead in sins" In Christ John M. Whalen

Whenever this subject comes up, I often times find myself saying, "But what about in scripture where it says........?" I finally came to the following scriptures, after studying this subject for a couple of months(and hopefully avoiding the secular thought process of reasoning this out, and "sticking with the scriptures"): " Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" Gen. 18:25 "He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he." Deut. 32:4 " Doth God pervert judgment? or doth the Almighty pervert justice?" Job 8:3 "Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment." Job 34:12 "To shew that the LORD is upright: he is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in him.' Psalms 92:14 The "bottom-line", where "the rubber meats the road", so to speak, is this: Do we Christians trust this wonderful God and Saviour we have, or don't we? I asked myself that question over and over-don't we all? I either trust Him, or I don't. Biblical trust is not defined in relation to a particular outcome, but in a person-the LORD God. We must grasp the fact that He is more committed to us than we will ever be to Him. The following passages seem appropriate: "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding..."(Proverbs 3:5) "The secret things belong unto the LORD our God..." Deut. 29:29 Being finite, there are certain "secret things" our just God chooses not to reveal to us, and wants us not to"lean" on our own understanding, but instead trust in Him. Someone once said: "Any little child can believe, for faith does not require knowing the facts about what God is doing. It requires only that I rest in the fact that God knows". What about it fellow brothers and sisters, do we trust our great God and Saviour, or not? I have included a couple of articles that I feel are well written on the subject(much better than anything I can add!) In Christ, John M. Whalen _______________________________________________________ Does God Send Babies To Hell? Berean Bible Church - Edgewater, Florida The Church That Preaches What The Bible Teaches There seems to be some discussion among the "brethren" regarding the eternal destiny of infants. I, for one, disagree with the theory that God sends babies to hell, as we shall see. The argument as I have heard it goes like this: all have sinned sinners end up in hell fire we are sinners from birth sin must be judged so all sinners go to hell It is a very logical argument but even logic must give way to the scriptures. Many in answering this thesis would use the "age of accountability" argument and in some arenas that would suffice. However the real question here is not of AGE but of UNDERSTANDING. To use an acknowledged humanistic illustration, we as Americans do not and would not support capital punishment of a person that does not UNDERSTAND his wrong no matter what his age. But let us hasten to the scriptures and answer the question, "Does God impute sin where there is no understanding of sin or of God?" God sends the children of the children of Israel into the land because they did not have enough understanding to reject God. -- Deu 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it. There is a time in life when a person does not receive the FULL measure of the consequences of wrong doing. It is in childhood, where understanding is being developed. Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings. Unborn children and yes aborted children are not capable of doing right or wrong and are there fore not culpable. Rom 9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, ... Now, here is the real crux of the matter: If the dead will be judged in Rev 20:11-15 according to "their works," how can those who have no knowledge of good or evil (infants, young children) and those who have not yet done any "good or evil" (the unborn) be held accountable for their lack of understanding? Understanding the w-o-r-d-s of the law was necessary in the giving and teaching of the law. Neh 8:2 And Ezra the priest brought the law before the congregation both of men and women, and all that could hear with understanding, upon the first day of the seventh month. God does not require children to understand doctrine and doctrine is necessary for redemption. Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: We could go on and on but that would belabor the point. We will close therefore with this: James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. Gen 18:25 ... Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? Yes, HE will!! _________________________________________________________________ Do Babies go to Heaven? & What about the Unborn? Pastor Dave Siegmann Fellowship Bible Church 310 N. Hiawassee Rd. Orlando, Fl 32835 www.fellowshipbible.com There is much confusion today in regards to where the unborn, or newly born babies go if they either are aborted, or die before they have a chance to believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. If all children go to heaven, then should not we as Christians be supporting abortion? Evangelism through abortion would be very successful. If these children would have been born, reality tells us that most would not have accepted Christ as their savior. They are with the Lord today only because they were not allowed to live. Also, why not kill our own children even after they are born, and before they are held accountable so they too can be assured of heaven. These are extreme ideas that I do not support. In Deuteronomy 1:39 we read,

For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope." Romans 15:4 ________________________________________________________________________________ "And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it." Jeremiah 18:4 "But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel...." Acts 9:15 ________________________________________________________________________________ When the LORD God instructed Jeremiah by sending him to "...the to the potter's house...."(Jer. 18:2), it was to teach him, and us, a magnificant eternal principle: The LORD would never MEND that which man had marred, but would "start over", "put an end to that which was marred". Here, the LORD would not of "marred" Israel mend the nation. He would make a "new" nation, a "new" Israel. He would put a new spirit in them, and write His law in their hearts(Ch. 18, 31:31-37, Ez. 11:19, 36:26). And notice that it would be the same clay("...made it again...."-18:4), but new. Please consider these spiritual applications we can glean from the "Old Testament" "for our learning": 1. "But the heavens and the earth, which are now...."(2 Peter 3:7) are under a curse(Gen. 3:17, for eg.), "marred", if you will, so "...the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now"(Romans 8:22). Thus, the LORD would have us to know also that He will not "mend" this earth, He will make "...new heavens and a new earth....(2 Peter 3:13, Isaiah 65:17, Rev. 21:1, Matthew 19:28-"regeneration"), and of which the present earth will have a foretaste in the millenium blessings. "Secondary spiritual application: it is "in vain" for man to spend so much effort trying to "mend" this earth. 2. Man is "marred", is aliented from the life of God(Romans 5:12-21; Eph. 2:1-3;4:17-19). God will not "reform" or "mend" the "natural man", that is, those "in Adam", but He makes a "new creature"(2 Cor. 5:17), a "new man"(Eph. 4:24) in Christ and gives him a new nature and new Spirit, the Holy Spirit. Thus, those attempts to "improve the flesh"(whether it be by ritual, or by obeying some set of "rules") are in vain. 3.Regarding the kings of the earth attempting to set up the throne of David: The LORD God will not mend governmental thrones of the earth. Better government by human remedies, reforms, revolution, elections.....will fail-it is in vain. The "god of heaven" will "set up a kingdom"(Daniel 2:44, Ez. 21:27,Is. 32:1, Psalms 2:6)(An "aside": A kingdom is always set up by force. This is why I feel many Christians, in particular, those of "Dominion Now" bent, are misgided. That is, the Lord Jesus Christ will not come back until we Christians have conquered all his enemies for Him. This is manifested in the bringing of Christ into the secular realm by use of the political process, to change the laws governing education, public morality, etc. to make them to conform to the Bible="My will be done with the LORD's help". The Lord Jesus Christ will set up his literal, physical kingdom on earth, and He will be king. But He needs no help from us, and it will be done by force! And, in the meantime, the only thing that will change a man's behavior is the gospel of Christ, which we should be preaching! . Notice that the divine operation is "working from the inside out", the reverse of the Satanic mode, that is, "working from the outside to the inside-"the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life". And also notice that the Church, which is His "Body", is not set up-it is being "built"(1 Cor. 3:9, Eph. 2:21-22)). Uh-oh, did I open up the proverbial "can of worms" here?! 4. Our mortal bodies: no "mending": from Gen. 319, Ecl. 3:20, Heb. 9:27 to 2 Cor. 4:14-5:2, Philippians 3:20-21

"It is better to dwell in the wilderness, than with a contentious and an angry woman." Proverbs 21:19 I know the issue of a person's eternal destination is very serious, for the LORD God would "...have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth"(1 Tim. 2:4). However, the above Proverb suggests our wonderful LORD God does have a sense of humor! Any thoughts? In keeping with this "spirit"-many of you may have seen this, but perhaps not. ______________________________________________________ How many Christians does it take to change a light bulb? Charismatic: Only one. Hands already in the air. Pentecostals: Ten. One to change the bulb and nine to pray against the spirit of darkness. Presbyterians: None. Lights will go on and off at predestined times. Roman Catholic: None. Candles only. Baptists: At least 15. One to change the light bulb and three committees to approve the change and decide who brings the potato salad... oh yes, and a casserole. Episcopalians: Three. One to call the electrician, one to mix the drinks and one to talk about how much better the old one was. Mormons: Five. One man to change the bulb and four wives to tell him how to do it. Unitarians: We choose not to make a statement either in favor of for against the need for a light bulb. However, if in your own journey you have found that light bulbs work for you, that is fine. You are invited to write a poem or compose a modern dance about your light bulb for the next Sunday service, in which we will explore a number of light bulb traditions, including incandescent, fluorescent, three-way, long-life and tinted, all of which are equally valid paths of luminescence. Methodists: Undetermined. Whether your light is bright, dull, or completely out, you are loved. You can be a light bulb, turnip bulb, or tulip bulb. Church-wide lighting service is planned for Sunday. Bring bulb of your choice and a covered dish. Nazarene: Six. One woman to replace the bulb while five men review church lighting policy. Lutherans: None. Lutherans don't believe in change. Amish: What's a light bulb? In Christ, John Whalen

From "The Wizard of Oz" Dorothy to the Scarecrow: "How can you talk without a brain?" Scarecrow:"Some people do a lot of talking without a brain". _________________________________________________ This truth is applicable to me. Being relatively new to these boards, I admit I have not made a good first impression, and for that I apologize to you all. Sometimes my heart is in the right place, but my brain is "out to lunch". Being in the financial services business, I, more than anyone, should know that people do not care how much you know, until they know how much you care. I forgot this biblical doctrine recently. The Lord Jesus Christ is the master teacher. I notice He used parables constantly(parable-"side by side"). I feel more comfortable using analogies, so "here goes". Did you ever notice that when we look at ourselves in the mirror, our perception of ourselves from a mirror is actually quite different from the "reality" a still photograph portrays? That is, our own perception of what we look like from a mirror is distorted and inaccurate. We really don't see ourselves "as we really are"(truth) from a mirror. Thus, only through the word of God and the Holy Spirit of God are we able to see ourselves as we really are. And only by the word of God and the Holy Spirit of God are will we see ourselves reflecting God's image. I thank brother Wayne for caring enough about me to gently remind me of this-and he did this through the word. "When you are in a ditch, stop digging"! Hopefully I did not "bury" myself too deep with all you brothers and sisters in Christ. I also hope you understand my motivation-to make known how wonderful a Saviour we all have in the Lord Jesus Christ, " In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace..."Eph. 1:7). Pure grace is neither treating a person as they deserve, nor treating a person better than they deserve, but treating a person without the slightest reference to what they deserve. And this is the message of the cross of Christ that I want people to know and proclaim(preach). Pure grace, from the divine viewpoint, is love being expressed in measureless, spontaneous generosity-expecting nothing in return. Grace means that the giver takes the initiative to accomplish something for the recipient that they could not do for themselves. Grace speaks of the giver seeking out the recipient, rather than the recipient seeking out the giver. If I have "muddled" this beautiful message of grace by my style, I again apologize. Perhaps the below "Priorities" will edify and provide a perspective of "where I am coming from". I would appreciate any constructive criticism. In Christ, John M. Whalen _____________________________________ Priorities by John Whalen The world "compartmentalizes" the LORD God in the priorities in life. The investment/business world refers to this as the "Wheel of Life", typically dividing priorities into broad classes such as, 1. Financial and Career, 2. Physical and Health, 3. Family and Home, 4. Mental and Educational, 5. Spiritual and Ethical, and 6. Social and Cultural. This idea is usually conveyed/pictured as a "pie chart". I provide the following quote from a sales seminar I attended that I feel best characterizes this view, which the Bible refers to as "...the spirit of the world...."(1 Corinthians 2:12), and is a trait of the unsaved, those who are "...in Adam..." and not "...in Christ...."(1 Corinthians 15:22), walking "...according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience.... fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind...."(Ephesians 2:2,3): "Your God-given potential gives you the right and responsibility to choose goals and set priorities in all areas of your life. That is why YOU is placed prominently in the center of the Wheel of Life. No one else knows which goals are most appropriate , and no one else should dictate your priorities.....You lose control over what happens to you if you allow decisions to be made for you by someone else". -from "Effective Personal Productivity", by Paul J. Meyer What is wrong with"this picture"? Everything, according to the word of God! Notice that "I" is at the center of priorities. And notice the 5 "I"s of Isaiah 14:13, the sin of Satan, which has as it's root pride-a desire for independence and self-glory/self-exaltation instead of focusing on dependence on God and the exaltation of God to bring glory to him. The first sin , and all subsequent sins, was rebellion against authority-the imparted right to bring the power of another into operation-"Who gets to rule whom? Who is in charge? Who has the final say?" The primary trait of our sinful nature is thus self centered ness, or pride, as manifested in the sin of rebellion against authority, which is a satanic principle: "...I will ascend into heaven....I will exalt my throne above the stars of God....I will set my throne upon the mount of the congregation....I will ascend above the heights of the clouds...I will be like the most High". Isaiah 14;13,14 " For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king." 1 Samuel 15:23 Pride is pre-occupation with self and focuses on the concerns of one's well-being, thoughts, interests, comforts, and pleasure. Reflect on the root of all the problems that are in the world now and in the past. That root is pride. Man's sinful nature, his "flesh", is in rebellion against God and his authority. Man's inherited sinful nature and inclination is to: -rule his own life(independence): "Shalt thou indeed reign over us?" Genesis 37:8(to Joseph) "...Who made thee a prince and judge over us?" Exodus 2:14, Acts 7:27(to Moses) "We will not have this man to reign over us". Luke 19:14(to the Lord Jesus Christ) "We have no king but Caesar". John 19:15(to Pilate) "...now make us a king to judge us like all nations....they said; Give us a king to judge us....And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them". 1 Samuel 8:5-7(to Samuel) -collect treasures for himself -praise his own strength and ability -trust in his own wisdom, and not God and His wisdom as revealed in His written word(which is the only source for truth and authority) "In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes". Judges 17:6, 21:25 "The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise". Proverbs 12:15 "All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits". Proverbs 16:2 "Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts". Proverbs 21:2 " There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness". Proverbs 30:12 "Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight"! Isaiah 5:21 Jeremiah 9:23,24 answers these characteristics of the proud person, the focus on "I", as it is written: " Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: 24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD". Riches, fame, power, pride of owning "stuff", physical beauty, career ambition, etc., are priorities that the Bible terms as the affections and the lust of the flesh(Galatians 5:16,5:24; Ephesians 2:3, 4:22; 1 Timothy 6:9; 2 Timothy 2:22, 3:6; Titus 3:3), "worldly lusts"(Titus 2:12), and are contrary to the Spirit of God(Galatians 5:16,17), as it is written: "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world". 1 John 2:15,16 "...And be not conformed to this world...." Romans 12:2 " If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God". Colossians 3:1-3 None of these " worldly priorities" give our lives any purpose and meaning-nor can we find any eternal satisfaction in them, for "...the eyes of man are never satisfied"(Proverbs 27:20). Regarding our purpose and meaning, understand that God's definition of purpose/meaning, or "success" is opposed to man's definition of success. Man's conception of success perhaps is best summarized by the old saying"eat, drink, and be merry", or by the apostle Paul's conclusion (if there is no resurrection) "...let us eat and drink...."(1 Cor. 15:32), the commercials "Rock on!", or "go for all the gusto". Man spends almost every waking moment attempting to achieve this end, this "success"- on seeking that which pleases the flesh, on focusing on how much he can gather during his short stay on earth. This is man's idea of "success", of "accomplishment". The world bombards us with the message "Pull yourself up by your own bootstraps", "Make something of yourself", "Get Ahead"............................ You may ask, "What could be wrong with this"? And the reason most ask this question(instead of asking "Is this right?") is that most have been "brainwashed", deceived by Satan, "...the god of this world....(2 Corinthians 4:4), "...the prince of this world....(John 12:31, 14:30, 16:11), "... the prince of the power of the air....(Ephesians 2:2), with this message all their life, primarily through the medium of television(did you ever think about the purpose of TV: to get you to want something you do not have, through advertising/commercials?=covetousness-read Colossians 3:5). Is not it important to "climb the corporate ladder", "make something out of myself"? According to the LORD God of the Bible, there is everything wrong with you("I") trying to make something out of yourself. In the eyes of the LORD, the only success He considers worthy of mentioning is that which He makes a success in and through you for His glory, and only as it is relative to and "...concerning his Son Jesus Christ....(Romans 1:3). We read in the first chapter of Genesis that God created man in His own image, i.e., man was created to reflect the glory of God. The glory of God centers on who He is and what He does-it is the true demonstration of His character, His attributes, His moral purity and perfection. This glory of God is revealed when we see His mercy, grace, love, kindness, forbearance, righteousness, holiness(the most prominent attribute of God's character as revealed in His word-not love)...........Therefore, when the Bible testifies that the LORD God created man "...for my glory...."(Isaiah 43:7), this means that man was created to be the vessel, the channel, by which and through which God would display His glory- we were made to reflect the greatness of God(not us) through our praise of Him, our exaltation of Him, our satisfaction in Him, our believing what He says, our dependence on Him, our faithfulness to Him, and understanding that He can satisfy our needs and desires far better than we can, and that He Himself is ultimately the satisfaction of our needs and desires. . Adam rebelled when he took delight in his own wisdom("...ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil"(Genesis 3:5), declared independence from God, and doubted God's goodness, and thus belittled the glory of God-when he sinned, he stopped reflecting God's glory, and thus the purpose for which he was created. And since this time Adam's sin has been passed on to all, for "And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness..."(Gen. 5:3), and is termed in the Bible as "...in Adam...."(1 Cor. 15:22). Paul expounds upon this theme when he says: "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God". Romans 3:23 The glory of God also refers to God's exalted standing, reputation, value, or esteem in other people's eyes(see Jeremiah 13:11). We glorify God when we acknowledge, by words or actions, that He is more important than we are, and that what he wants is more important than what we want, i.e., His will be done, not ours. This should be the abiding principle of our lives-choosing His way rather than our way. When someone tells me "I do not have enough time", I wonder if the person who says this realizes that almost everyone says "I do not have enough time". It seems that nobody has enough time. Ponder this: What if God were to say to me, "I do not have enough/any time for you". There is never "enough time"-there is always more that we want to do than there is time to do it. Glorifying God means setting aside what we want to do, or feel that "we need to do", in order to do what the LORD God wants us to do. And part of this is getting to know Him through His word-his revelation of Himself to us. This means setting priorities-making God's glory your main priority, even if that means separating yourself from the hustle/bustle and time pressures of this fast-paced world to spend time with God-worshipping Him,praising Him, thanking Him, walking with Him. Is not God Himself much more important than the things of the world which He created? Is not God Himself more important than anything we can do for Him? True, sometimes we display His importance by what we try to do for Him, but always we should demonstrate his value to us by choosing to walk in fellowship with Him. What is your priority? Nobody seems to have enough time, money (ever notice that this includes millionaires?), entertainment..............Glorifying God means relying on Him, trusting in Him, not only for our salvation, but for satisfying our needs. Viewed in this light, the "tribulations"(tribulation in the Bible means "pressure") we face are should not be disheartening. Rather, they are an opportunity to glorify God in a way that we could not before. Is not it easy to trust God, or at least say you do, when you have a lot of money, good health, good family, etc.? But are not you placing Him in higher esteem, glorifying Him more when you thank Him, praise Him,and worship Him, when you are in difficulty and pain? Did not the Lord Jesus Christ praise His Father in heaven even when He was on the cross? It is no great feat to give God your time when you have "a lot of it", but you exalt him higher when you give Him time while you feel absolutely crushed by the seemingly un endless, urgent demands surrounding you. What is your priority? The ultimate demonstration of His glory is demonstrated in the attributes of His love and righteousness as displayed at Calvary. He sent "...his only begotten Son...."(John 3:16), the Lord Jesus Christ, to both vindicate the Father's name(Romans 3:24-26), and to pay for the wages of sin, which is death(Romans 6:23), by dieing in our place for our sins(Romans 5:8, 1 Cor. 15:3, Galatians 1:14). The "ultimate" success, the Lord Jesus Christ, was a success on earth for one reason: He gave Himself unreservedly to be used of His Father for His glory: " Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. Father, glorify thy name...." John 12:27,28 " I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do". John 17:4 "Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work". John 4:34 The Lord Jesus Christ's joy was knowing that he was finishing the work His Father had given Him-he delighted in doing His Father's will(Psalms 40:8,Matthew 26:39, Hebrews 10:7), all for the glory of God. It was not just His duty, His obligation(definition of religion, by the way)- it was His food, His delight, to do the work His Father had given Him-and that work was to glorify His heavenly Father. The Lord Jesus Christ on earth, by his own admission, did nothing of His own volition: "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works". John 14:10 True success is no different than it was for the Lord Jesus Christ, when He humbled himself and allowed the Father to work in Him and through Him for 33 years on earth, depending on His father for everything, and all for one end-the glory of God. We are only a true success when we are used as vessels to outwardly display the life of Christ in us to a dieing, cursed, sinful world, all to the glory of God. It is not "...I , but Christ liveth in me..."(Galatians 2:20, Romans 8:10, 2 Corinthians 13:5, Ephesians 3:17, Colossians 1:27) is doing this through us, "...all to the glory of God"(1 Corinthians 10:31), which we do "..all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him"(Colossians 3:17). God is glorified when "I" stays in the background. The apostle Paul stated this truth this way: " According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death". Philippians 1:20 . This is the only time we are successful-anything we do apart from Christ doing it in us and through us for God's glory is nothing. "I" is not the issue. The issue is spreading His glory. Notice that in glorifying/magnifying God, Paul found a worthy reason for living that transcended death, and tells us, in no uncertain terms, that glorifying God should be the goal of our life: . " For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's". 1 Corinthians 6:20 " Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God". 1 Corinthians 10:31 Paul places God's glory as the motivation, the touchstone, by which we should decide what we do. When a purpose is your rationale or basis for what should be done or not done, it is"de facto"( De facto is a Latin expression that means "in fact" or "in practice", commonly used as opposed to de jure [meaning "by law"] when referring to matters of law or governance or technique [such as standards], that are found in the common experience as created or developed without or against a regulation) what you live for. For example, when you decide your actions by what will bring you the most money, you are living for money. Paul, then, is telling us that we should be living to glorify God. This is an alien concept in a world that seeks to place man and his needs above God, whether that is the secular world promoting a "social gospel", or the so-called Christian world that promotes a "prosperity gospel"-both are focused on "pampering the flesh", and not on bringing glory to God through the gospel of Christ. The Bible's testimony is also clear that the LORD God is the only source of real joy and meaning in life-He is the giver of life, the sustainer of life, and the fulfiller of life-He is life. Only in Him can a man be satisfied, and only in Him does man find life and meaning.(Psalms 37:4, 145:15-19; Ecclesiastes 2:11; John 10:10, 17:3). And He has created us to find true joy and satisfaction only in Him through a relationship with Himself. As we seek to place Him at the center of our lives, above our family, above our friends, above our jobs, above our material possessions, and, most importantly, above ourselves("I"), and not place him in a "compartment" to be visited once a week at "church", as we seek to live for His glory, our lives take on real purpose and significance, and we experience real joy, "...joy in the LORD...."(Isaiah 29:13). You cannot have a relationship with God unless you know Him. Think on this. How can I have a relationship with my dad if I do not know him? How can I have a relationship with Greg Preas, Teri Preas, Preston Preas, Kennedey Preas, Mike Arnold, Dani Arnold, Eric Arnold, Christopher Arnold, Mark Lyons, Dawn Lyons, Gary Ricks, John Garmany, Jerry Lockhart..........., if I do not know them? I cannot. Likewise, I cannot have a relationship with God if I do not know Him. And you cannot know the LORD God apart from His revelation of Himself in the written word, and the revelation of Himself in the living word-the Lord Jesus Christ. The main purpose of salvation , according to scripture, is God's glory. One of the "means to an end" of salvation is eternal life:Jn 3:15,16, 3:36,4:14,5:24-29,5:39-49,6:33,6:40.10:28,11:25-26,14:6,17:2-3,; Acts 13:46; Romans 5:9-10, 5:17-18,5:21, 6:22-23, 11:14-15; 2 Tim. 1:1, 1:8-10,Hebrews 5:8-9). And one of the goals of eternal life is so that we might have all eternity to know the one true God and His glorious Son, the "...Lord of glory...."(1 Cor. 2:8), the Lord Jesus Christ: "These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent". John 17:1-3 This is a constant theme-read Romans 11:33, Eph, 3:17-19. The knowledge of God as a purpose for man, with the ultimate "end" of this goal being God's glory is all throughout scripture. Read Isaiah 11:9, Hab 2:14,, Jeremiah 31:34. I ask all believers, and non-believers: "What is your priority"? What do you delight in? What do you find yourself talking about the most? What do you orient your life around? What is it, or who is it, that determines your activities? Who is the object of your love? Is the answer the LORD God? In Christ, John

Eric writes: "Hey John, I'm glad we agree. What are you a school teacher or something. I never finished third year at high school myself. You know like words of one syllable? I mean you are something else, but I get your drift. God bless ya jw." ____________________ Eric, Thank you for your gracious words! No, I am not a school teacher.I wish I were! I do not have all the "hardware"(Phd, Dds................) you seem to need in this complicated world. Do not get discouraged by your lack of "wordly education", for "... the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness"(1 Cor. 3:19). Interestingly enough, Peter and John were considered "...unlearned and ignorant men...."(Acts 4:13) by the so-called "experts" of their day. And these same "experts" knew the contents of scripture "word for word"(they had it memorized), but "a lotta good it did them"!(sarcasm). Paul, "...the apostle of the Gentiles...."(Romans 11:13), who was on the "fast-track"("gold" per Seinfeld!), considered all his "degrees" and "heritage"(Philippians 3:4-6, 2 Cor. 11:22) as "dung"(Phil. 3:8) as compared to his "...knowledge of Christ Jesus...."(Phil. 3:8). Do you remember Jethro Bodine("The Beverly Hillbillies")? He had only "a sixth grade education", and yet he was rich!(perhaps not a great analogy!). Remember that you are "... an heir of God through Christ...."(Galatians 4:7, Romans 8:17, Titus 3:7). Do not confuse wisdom with knowledge. Wisdom is the correct application of knowledge, which you seem to have. Someone once said that philosophers are people who seek answers to questions people never ask. As for me, I am just one former beggar, now "in Christ" and therefore an heir, trying to show other beggars, those "...in Adam....", where the food is-"...in Christ...."(1 Cor. 15:22). Or, as Paul put it, "And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also"(2 Tim. 2:2). I hope this edifies("builds up"). In Christ, John M. Whalen

Eric writes: "Well I've read some of the posts on this thread and there's a big variation of opinions. I dont see how you cane equate something tangible like a piece of currency that you can feel and see, with something like a belief, which is intangible. A bad anology IMO. Furthermore there is not much point in studying other religions when. like some, I know cant even comes to grips and understand fully whats written in the scriptures called the Holy Bible. When you are witnessing to anyone bhuddist, hindu or confucious you are to get your christian point of view not to question his religion. You are not there to make deals, you're there to represent Jesus. What benefit is to you or Christ to know about someone elses false gods. I haven't the foggiest notion of the Koran is all about, because it's none of my business. Christ is my business and directing the lost to Him, but I would sure as shooting love to tell any muslim I meet about Jesus. Get to understand your own bible before you question anyone elses. that's my opoinon anyway. " _________________________________ You missed the point of the analogy, Eric. The point was that there is no need to study the Koran, the counterfeit, when you have the genuine, The Holy Bible. You study/rely on the Bible, the truth, as the standard by which you expose error(like the Koran), much as you study a "real dollar bill", the genuine, to be able to know a fake bill when you see it. Both the Bible and the Koran are "tangible"-books you can feel touch and feel. The issue is not faith, which you say is intangible, but discerning the truth from deception. And you discern error and deception by knowing the Bible(a tangible book), "the word of truth", for it will expose deceptions like the Koran(a tangible book). Again, the issue is not faith. But since you did mention it, faith is not some "pipedream" or fantasy. Any "faith" which is not based upon reason supported by evidence is folly. And the Holy Bible is the written record of such evidence, the written record of our "faith", the body of truth of God's revelation of Himself to man. Our faith stands on the basis of evidence which is independent of physical sight and scientific documentation/verification, but which indisputable and undeniable. There are 3 essential elements of faith:1. knowledge=perception of some information=Before we can believe anything we must know about it. This is where the Bible "comes in"-a "tangible", written record, and the source of our knowledge, since "... faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God"(Romans 10:17), and "... and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?"(Romans 10:14) Notice Eph. 1:13-:... ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed...." Thus, faith presupposes knowledge, and this knowledge comes from hearing the "tangible" word of God in written form. 2. Mental assent -an acceptance that something is true, being persuaded that something is true, convinced something is true, BASED UPON FACTS/EVIDENCE. For eg., "... many infallible proofs...(Acts 1:3). See also Luke 24:39, John 20:27, 1 Cor. 15:5-6("seen" by witnesses). Faith, since it is based on knowledge, does not mean believing when there is no evidence(that is fantasy). Faith includes believing the evidence. It permits investigation. It is not "if I believe hard enough it will come true", or "I hope so". It is having your feet planted firmly "on the ground of" facts. Biblical faith is always founded on fact-not upon feelings/emotion or intuition. 3. Reliance on the truth=resting on, depending on Thus, biblical faith is recognition of some information(knowledge), accepting it as true based upon evidence, and depending on it. It is recognition of the truth, the reception of the truth, and the reliance upon the truth. It is the intelligent perception of, reception of, and reliance upon the truth as revealed in a "tangible" document-the Holy Bible. I hope this clarifies. I think we agree in our conclusion, but not as to why! In Christ, John M. Whalen

Tiggr, you write: "So what are you saying, that Paul taught a false gospel? So the verses below are not the gospel 1 Cor 15:1-4 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: KJV Jesus died, was buried, and rose again and He did all so that we could be saved, sound like good news to me" and, "Paul wrote Romans so how can you say that the correct gospel is in Romans but that Paul did not preach the right one? Also Romans was written to believers in Rome they didnt need to know what they had to do to be saved but what they needed to do to stay saved. " ________________________________________________________________________________ _______ No, I did not say Paul taught a false gospel. And 1 Cor. 15:1-4 is the gospel of Christ. But your question/statement "So the verses below are not THE GOSPEL" demonstrates the misunderstanding most(including myself until the Lord sent teachers to me to instruct me from His word, and I "checked it out" per Acts 17:2,11!) have regarding the term "gospel"-the term "THE GOSPEL" needs to be qualified within its dispensational setting. Paul was commissioned to preach the gospel of the grace of God, the gospel of Christ, that was revealed to him from the risen, ascended, glorified, Lord Jesus Christ from heaven by revelation. This was his calling from the Lord Jesus Christ. And this is the only "good news", as you rightly say, that will save you from the penalty, power, and presence from sin(salvation and justification, sanctification, glorification). This gospel is summarized in 1 Cor. 15:1-4. But this is not "the gospel of the kingdom"-these are not equivalent or synonymous. The Lord Jesus Christ during his earthly ministry, the apostles, and the disciples all preached "the gospel of the kingdom". "Gospel" means "good news", but there is more than one "gospel" in scripture, and the confusion in Christianity results from the failure to understand the absolute necessity of "rightly dividing the word of truth"(2 Tim. 2:15), mainly failing to distinguish between the prophetic program as revealed in the Old Testament, and the Mystery Program that was revealed to Paul. Nowhere in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John will you find 1 Cor. 15;1-4 being preached as the "good news", the basis for our salvation and justification. Nowhere. Consider this. You cannot preach what you do not know. You cannot believe that which you do not know. During the Lord Jesus Christ's earthly ministry, the apostles and disciples had no knowledge of his impending, death, burial, and resurrection: "From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee" Mt. 16:21,22 "And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him." Mark 8:31,32 (Comment: Obviously, Peter was attempting to prevent the Lord's death! If the death, burial, and resurrection was the grounds for Peter's salvation and justification(as Paul expounds on in his epistles), why was Peter trying to prevent the very thing that would be the basis for his justification? See also John 18:10. Did he ever preach 1 Cor. 15:1-4? If he had, his rebuke of the Lord would be a non-sensical reaction!) "For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day. But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him." Mark 9:31,32 "Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken." Luke 18:31-34 "Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day...." Luke 24:45,46 "For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead." John 20:9 (Comment: Notice they did not know it or understand it prior to His death! They were not preaching 1 Cor. 15:1-4). Even after the Lord's death, burial, and resurrection, they intially did not believe it: "And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted." Mt. 28:17 "And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not. After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country. And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them. Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen." Mark 16:11 "And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest. It was Mary Magdalene and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles. And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not." Luke 24:9-11 " And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?" Luke 24:41 It is a prevalent but erroneous view that there is only one gospel in scripture. The fact that the message of the cross is not part of the "gospel of the kingdom" does not mean that the Lord jesus Christ's death was not the critical event. And no one has ever been, nor ever will be, saved apart from the death, burial and resurrection. But it is an entirely different matter to say that it was the contents of one and the same gospel of all time. Christ's death was the central event, , but that fact was not always part of the content or message(a discussion of progressive revelation would be beyond the scope of this message). Indeed, during the Lord Jesus Christ's earthly ministry, the "gospel of the kingdom", the good news" of the approaching Davidic, Messianic kingdom("...as the days of heaven upon the earth...." Deut. 11:24), which was the subect of Old Testament prophecy concerning the restoration of earth with Jesus Christ ruling in righteousness, was preached: "And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people." Mt. 4:23 "These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give." Mt. 10:5-8 "And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." Mark 1:15 And yet, as shown previously, the disciples and apostles understood absolutely nothing of the cross and resurrection. Any honest read of scripture must come to this conclusion. So, how can anyone say that they "...preached Christ crucified...." 1 Cor. 1:23), or 1 Cor. 15:1-4, as Paul did? Impossible. Only later, through Paul's apostle ship, was the cross revealed as the central theme of the gospel(again, the discussion for the reasons for this are beyond the scope of this article). Romans was not written to believers to show "how to stay saved", it was Paul's lawyerly exposition on salvation, justification, imputation, propitiation(satisfaction), reconcilliation-doctrine. The letters of Paul are structured in keeping with "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"(2 Tim. 3:16), as follows: Romans-the gospel of Christ-doctrine-main focus is the believer's justification Corinth-reproof-main focus is the believer's sanctification Galatians-correction-main focus is the believer's righteousness Ephesians- the "mystery" doctrine-main focus is the believer's heavenly standing Philippians-reproof-focus on the believer's defect in conduct Colossians-correction-focus is on the believer' completeness "in Him" Thessalonians-focus is on the believer's soon glorification-After the Lord's return, there cannot be any possible need for "reproof", for "correction", hence no church epistles follow Thessalonians. The doctrine of Romans answers Job 9:2. _____________________________________ Tiggr, perhaps the following articles by another writer(s) much better state the intent of my e-mail to you. Thanks for the questions. In Christ, John M. Whalen ______________________________________ More Than One Gospel Nancy Paulson Too often we do not have an understanding of God's purpose and plan because we are unaware of the different messages that God has given to man. It is a surprise to many when they learn that Paul actually preached a different message than Jesus during His earthly ministry. This is because of a faulty thinking that there is only ONE Gospel that is proclaimed in the Bible. The word Gospel simply means "good news". To say that there is only one Gospel is to say that the "good news" spoken of is always the same. The Bible contains many passages that tell of "good news", but is the "good news" always the same message? There are distinctive terms that describe the various "good news": The Gospel of the Kingdom The Gospel of the Grace of God The Gospel of the Circumcision The Gospel of the Uncircumcision If each of these gospels are called something different, then would that not indicate that they have different meanings and are not the same? The "good news" has not been revealed all at once. Different aspects of the "good news" have been revealed at different intervals of time throughout the ages. To Adam - Genesis 3:15 - the "good news" was that there was to be a Redeemer. To Abraham (Abram) - Galatians 3:8 - the "good news" was in him all nations shall be blessed. To David - 2Samuel 7:16 - the "good news" was that his throne shall be established forever. To that Twelve Apostles - Luke 9:1-6 - the "good news" was that of the Kingdom of God. To the Apostle Paul - Romans 4:16, Ephesians 3:8-9 - the "good news" that we are saved by grace through faith. There are many Gospels (good news) in the Bible. In this study we will consider five aspects of the "good news" (five Gospels); note the different characteristics of each one. Five Different Gospels - (Five Different Kinds of "Good News") Gospel of the Kingdom- This Gospel begins with David, with whom the covenant of the kingdom was made. (See 2Samuel 2:17) Gospel of the Circumcision- This Gospel begins with Abraham, with whom the covenant of circumcision was made (See Genesis 17:10-14) Gospel of the Uncircumcision- This Gospel begins with Abram, who, as an uncircumcised heathen was justified by faith. (See Romans 4:9-11) Message of Reconciliation- This "good news" begins with Adam, through whom the world was alienated from God. (See Genesis 3:8) Mystery- This "good news" begins with God Himself and the good pleasure of His will.(See Romans 16:25; Ephesians 3:9) The Gospel of the Kingdom (2 Samuel 7:16 KJV) And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever. The covenant God made to David is the covenant in which the Kingdom of Christ is to be established. (Daniel 2:44 KJV) And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. This Kingdom is to be established forever because Christ is to occupy the throne.This kingdom is to be established in the earth. The final outcome of the whole entire prophetic program is to have a kingdom on the earth. (Jeremiah 23:5-6 KJV) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. {6} In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Even though the prophets prophecied about the Kingdom they did not tell the "good news" of the kingdom. John the Baptist began to preach the Gospel ("good news") of the Kingdom of God in that it was "at hand"(soon to be established). (Matthew 3:1-2 KJV) In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, {2} And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. When Jesus began to preach, he preached the same thing, the kingdom of heaven is at hand. (Matthew 4:17 KJV) From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. It is important to realize that when the twelve Disciples were commmanded to go forth and preach they were commanded to limit their preaching to the " lost sheep of the house of Israel" and to tell them, and only them, the "good news" about the kingdom. (Matthew 10:5-7 KJV) These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: {6} But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. {7} And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. The main theme of their preaching was that the kingdom of heaven was at hand. At no time in Jesus' earthly ministry did they preach that Christ was to die for their sins.The Disciples did not even comprehend that Jesus was to die. (See Luke 18:31-34) Their message was always that the kingdom of heaven was at hand. It is imperative to understand that although the kingdom of heaven was at hand it was not actually offered to Israel at this time. In other words, the kingdom of heaven is soon to be established, but it was not available at that time. The prophets spoke of the sufferings of Christ and the glory to follow. (See 1Peter 1:11) Christ had to die first before the kingdom could be established. One point that needs to be made is that even though Jesus had to die the message is NOT that He was to die for our sins, but that He had to die before the kingdom could be established. The kingdom could only be offered on the basis of the New Covenant, which was not made until the death of Christ. (See Matthew 26:28) (Joel 2:28-32 KJV) And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: {29} And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. {30} And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. {31} The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. {32} And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. These verses in Joel make it clear that the kingdom could not be offered until after Pentecost. The Spirit needed to come first. God foreknew that Israel would reject Christ. (Matthew 21:33-41 KJV) Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: {34} And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. {35} And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. {36} Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. {37} But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. {38} But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. {39} And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. {40} When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? {41} They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. (Matthew 21:43 KJV) Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. During the earthly ministry of Jesus it was evident that the leaders of Israel would not accept Christ as their king. The parable in Matthew 21 makes it clear that they would not inherit the kingdom, but it would be given to another nation. Who is this other nation? (Matthew 19:28 KJV) And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Luke 12:32 KJV) Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. The ones who are to receive this kingdom are the twelve Disciples and the "Little Flock", those who follow Christ in the prophetic program, are to be the ones who would inherit this kingdom. It is not to be given to the ones who just follow a religious system of beliefs. The Gospel of the Circumcision The "good news" or Gospel of the Circumcision was to show a separation of Abraham and his seed from the ungodly Gentiles. What exactly is circumcision? (Romans 4:11 KJV) And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: Circumcision is the seal of the righteousness of faith that Abraham had while he was uncircumcised. (Genesis 17:9-11 KJV) And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. {10}This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. {11} And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. Circumcision is a token of God's covenant with Abraham. It is because of this covenant that Abraham and his seed, those of the circumcision, were to be a blessing to all nations. (Genesis 22:17-18 KJV) That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; {18} And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice. The Gospel of the Circumcision is the "good news" based on the covenant that God made with Abraham. This Gospel was committed to Peter and it is what he preached. (See Galatians 2:7) (Acts 3:25-26 KJV) Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. {26} Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities. It was "good news" to those of the circumcision to know that they were to be a blessing to all nations and that was going to happen through the establishment of the kingdom. The "Gospel of the Kingdom" and the "Gospel of the Circumcision" are very closely related. The covenant God made with Abraham concerned a nation and the covenant God made with David concerned a government and a throne. In order for there to be a government and a place to rule there would have to be a people to govern. From the Scriptures we can plainly see that the Gospel of the Kingdom was proclaimed before Pentecost and the Gospel of the Circumcision was proclaimed after Pentecost. Both Gospels promise that God would bless the nations through Israel with Christ as King. The Gospel of the Uncircumcision (Galatians 2:7 KJV) But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; This verse shows that Peter's message was different than Paul's message. Paul went to Peter and the other eleven and explained to him the gospel that he was preaching among the Gentiles. Peter and John recognized that Paul's message was different from what they were preaching because in the Gospel of the Uncircumcision one is no longer justified by the works of the law, but by grace through faith. In the Gospel of the Uncircumcision the "good news" is not based on any covenant. The blessing of Abraham is now come upon the Gentiles through Christ. (Galatians 3:14-16 KJV) That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. {15} Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. {16} Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. The Gospel of the Uncircumcision goes back to Abram, before he was circumcised, when he was justified by faith; years before he was circumcised. (Romans 4:9-11 KJV) Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. {10} How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. {11} And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: The Gospel of the Circumcision was limited to the seed of Abraham and it was through them that the nations would be blessed, but the Gospel of the Uncircumcision includes all who believe, both Jew and Gentile alike. Romans 4:11 stresses that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness before he was circumcised in order that he might be the father of all who believe even though they are not circumcised. Paul has been sent forth to tell of salvation by faith to both the Jews and the Gentiles alike because Israel had rejected Christ and God in His longsuffering offered His mercy to all. (See Romans 11:32). Ministry under the Gospel of the Kingdom was limited to the nation of Israel, the twelve were commmanded not to go to the Gentiles.When they were commissioned with the Gospel of Circumcision they were instructed to go to the Jew first.Through both these Gospels God promised to bless the nations through Israel. But now, Israel refused to be that channel of blessings to the nations so God suspended the fulfillment of the covenants for a time and He raised up a new Apostle, Paul, and commissioned him to go forth with the Gospel of Uncircumcision, in which: (Romans 10:12-13 KJV) For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. {13} For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Ministry of Reconciliation The message of reconcilation was first committed to Paul to tell, but it actually goes all the way back to Adam, the father of the human race, the "one man" by whom sin entered the world and the whole human race became alienated to God. At this time both Jew and Gentile are alienated to God and need to be reconciled. When Jesus Christ was on the earth He did not preach reconciliation, neither did the twelve at Pentecost. During their teaching they referred back to David and Abraham, with whom the covenants were made, not to Adam in whom the world was alienated from God. The message of reconciliation could not be preached to all until Israel was cast aside for a time. The reason for this is before Israel was set aside they were considered to be "friends of God". Friends do not need to be reconciled. In the early Acts period Israel is still in her exalted position. (Romans 11:15 KJV) For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? Reconciliation comes after alienation; hence, it was not until after Israel was set aside, lost the friendship status, did God offer reconciliation through the Apostle Paul. It is with the stoning of Stephen (Acts 7) that Israel joined the Gentiles in rebellion toward God and Christ. This is why Paul refers back to Adam, the man by whom all mankind had been alienated from God. (Romans 5:12 KJV) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: It was natural that Israel should fall, because they, even though they had enjoyed a priveleged status, are also children of Adam. So even though they had a exalted position among the nations God is showing us that they had fallen and have become alienated from God. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, all have sinned.All are in Adam. The message of reconciliation is not offered based on covenants that God had made with man, but on the fact of man's alienation from God. The message of reconciliation tells us about another man, Jesus Christ who is the "second man", the "last Adam", the "one mediator between God and Man". (See 1Corinthians 15:45, 47; 1Timothy 2:5) It is by Jesus Christ and His death on the cross that sinners, Jew and Gentile alike, may be reconciled to God. Christ died for us while we were enemies of God, so that we can be reconciled to God. (See Romans 5:8, Ephesians 2:11-18) (Romans 5:18-19 KJV) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. {19} For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. (Colossians 1:21-22 KJV) And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled {22} In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: The message of reconciliation is our "great commission": (2 Corinthians 5:18-21 KJV) And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; {19} To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. {20} Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. {21} For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. God is offering everyone reconciliation today, but we have to accept what He is offering to us. It is our responsibility to proclaim God's offer of reconciliation. (2 Corinthians 6:2 KJV) (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.) The Mystery As the Kingdom of Christ is the subject of the prophetic program, so the Body of Christ is the subject of the Mystery which was revealed to and through the Apostle Paul. The Mystery" was made known to Paul by revelation. The risen Lord Jesus Christ revealed it to Paul. The "Mystery" is that there is to be one body, Body Of Christ, which is to be made up of both Jew and Gentile alike. This one body is made possible because of the reconciliation of both the Jews and Gentiles to God. (Ephesians 3:3-6 KJV) How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, {4} Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) {5} Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; {6} That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: In times past there was a middle wall of partition, the law, which keep the Jew and Gentiles apart. But now, that wall is torn down. It is no longer there. (Ephesians 2:14-18 KJV) For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; {15} Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; {16}And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: {17} And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. {18} For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Although this great mystery cannot be found in any other writings in the Bible except for Paul's Epistles, we ought not to assume God decided to do it as an afterthought. For it was in the mind of God from before the beginning. It was always a part of God's purpose and plan, He just chose to keep it a secret until He revealed it to and through the Apostle Paul. It is through the Gospel of the Uncircumcision-(justification by faith through grace), that we are given the Ministry of econciliation, in which both Jew and Gentile become one body in Christ. (Romans 16:25 KJV) Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, (Ephesians 3:5 KJV) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; (Ephesians 3:9 KJV) And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: (Colossians 1:26 KJV) Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: (Ephesians 3:11 KJV) According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: Nothing has taken God by surprise. Everything is in accordance to God's plan and purpose which God will fulfill in heaven and in earth. Reference used: Things That Differ by C.R.Stam © 1985 Worzalla Publishing CO, Stevens Point, WI _________________________________________ see http://members.tripod.com/bereanworkman/di...ational/two.htm

A couple of thoughts: Man has a tendency to spend a great majority of his energy and resources contemplating "where he came from". Did you ever notice that the Lord God spends very little time on this subject(Gen Chapters 1-2), but instead focuses on "where he is going"-redemption! "...Where art thou?" Gen. 3:9 To those who subscribe to the evolution "mindset", which says that man is "evolving" upward, the Bible's constant theme is that man is not progressing upward-the "natural" man is depraved and is spiralling downward. Adam and Eve had the "perfect" environment, and they fell-so much for the "social" gospel. Regeneration is only accomplished by the gospel of Christ. In Christ, John Whalen

Subject:The Art of "Dodging a Question"! by John M. Whalen 1.The word 'church' is a translation of the Greek word 'ekklesia', and in the scriptures was a simple word used to describe an assembly of "called out ones"('ek'=out of,'klesis'=a calling): "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling."(Eph. 4:4) /"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body...."(Col.3:15) Today's one true church is not a denomination-this means absolutely nothing to the LORD. The important concept is to whom or what have we been called. The 'ekklesia', the "called out ones", the 'church' of God is not an institution nor an organization-it is a people , a living organism whose members are born of the Spirit of God. It is those who are temples of the living God, both individually and collectively: "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints...."(1 Cor. 1:2-'sanctified' means to be set apart). God is building his one true church which, in his inspired word, he has identified as HIS BODY in Eph 1:22,23. And in Eph. 4:4 he states "There is one body...". So no denominational "religion" fits the description given for the one true church in the word of God. His body, the church, or," the church, Which is his body..."(Eph. 1:22,23), is made up of all who believe "the gospel of the grace of God"(Acts 20:24) preached by the apostle Paul, as outlined in 1 Cor. 15:1-4.....any Jew, any Gentile, for there is "neither Jew nor Greek.....for ye are all one in Christ Jesus"(Gal. 3:28). I hope you understand this response-when I see the hundreds of denominations, I "scratch my head"-Paul calls denominations "carnal" in 1 Cor. 3:4: "For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?" I am not against the gathering of the local assembly-this is scriptural. However, this local gathering should exalt the risen, ascended,and glorified Lord Jesus Christ through the preaching of the gospel("Preach the word...."(2 Tim. 4:2) In answer to your question, I meet with other "called out ones" weekly for Bible study-I am one of the teachers, and "we preach Christ crucified.."(1 Cor. 1:23), and we preach Jesus Christ according to Paul's gospel("my gospel")-"according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began"(Roman 16:25). Paul's passion was to preach the gospel, but also "to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which was from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God...(Eph. 3:9). No one seems to be preaching this mystery-why is that? 2. Many of you may have seen this article below. I still feel it needs to be published again. ______________________________________________________________ A Letter to the Apostle Paul Author unknown Rev. Saul Paul Independent Missionary Corinth, Greece Dear Mr. Paul, We recently received an application from you for service under our Board. It is our policy to be as frank and open-minded as possible with all our applicants. We have made an exhaustive survey of your case. To be plain, we are surprised that you have been able to "pass" as a bonafide missionary. We are told that you are afflicted with a severe eye-trouble. This is certain to be an insuperable handicap to an effective ministry. Our Board requires 20/20 vision. At Antioch, we learn, you opposed Dr. Simon Peter, an esteemed home missionary and actually rebuked him publicly. You stirred up so much trouble at Antioch that a special Board meeting had to be convened in Jerusalem. We cannot condone such actions. Do you think it seemly for a missionary to do part-time secular work? We hear that you are making tents on the side. In a letter to the church at Phillipi, you admitted that they were the only church supporting you. We wonder why. Is it true that you have a jail record? Certain brethren report that you did two years time at Caesarea and were imprisoned at Rome. You made so much trouble for the business men at Ephesus that they refer to you as "the man who turned the world upside down." Sensationalism, in missions, is uncalled for. We also deplore the lurid "over-the-wall-in-a-basket" episode at Damascus. We are appalled at your obvious lack of conciliatory behavior. Diplomatic men are not stoned and dragged out of the city gates, or assaulted by furious mobs. Have you ever suspected that gentler words might gain you more friends? I enclose a copy of Dalius Carnagus' book, "How To Win Jews and influence Greeks." In one of your letters, you refer to yourself as "Paul the aged." Our new mission policies do not envisage a surplus of superannuated recipients. We understand that you are given to fantasies and dreams. At Troas, you saw "a man of Macedonia" and at another time "were caught up into the third heaven" and even claimed "the Lord stood by" you. We reckon that more realistic and practical minds are needed in the task of world evangelism. You have caused much trouble everywhere you have gone. You opposed the honorable women at Berea and the leaders of your own nationality in Jerusalem. If a man cannot get along with his own people, how can he serve foreigners? We learn that you are a snake-handler. At Malta, you picked up a poisonous serpent which is said to have bitten you, but you did not suffer harm. Tsk, Tsk, Tsk! You admit that while you were serving time at Rome that "all forsook you." Good men are not left friendless. Three fine brothers, by the names of Diotrephes, Demas and Alexander, the coppersmith, have notarized affidavits to the effect that it is impossible for them to cooperate with either you or your program. We know that you had a bitter quarrel with a fellow missionary named Barnabas. Harsh words do not further God's work. You have written many letters to churches where you have formerly been pastor. In one of the letters, you accused a church member of living with his father's wife, and you caused the whole church to feel badly; and the poor fellow was expelled. You spend too much time talking about "the second coming of Christ." Your letters to the people at Thessalonica were almost entirely devoted to this theme. Put first things first from now on. Your ministry has been far too flighty to be successful. First Asia Minor, then Macedonia, then Greece, then Italy and now you are talking about a wild goose chase into Spain. Concentration is more important than dissipation of one's powers. You cannot win the whole world by yourself. You are just one little Paul. In a recent sermon, you said "God forbid that I should glory in anything save the cross of Christ." It seems to us that you also ought to glory in our heritage, our denominational program, the unified budget, our Cooperative Program and the World Federation of Churches. Your sermons are much too long for the times. At one place, you talked until after midnight and a young man was so asleep that he fell out of the window and broke his neck. Nobody is saved after the first twenty minutes any way. "Stand up, speak up and then shut up," is our advice. Dr. Luke reports that you are a thin little man, bald, frequently sick and always so agitated over your church that you sleep very poorly. He reports that you pad around the house praying half the night. A healthy mind in a robust body is our ideal for all applicants. A good night's sleep will give you zest and zip so that you wake full of zing. We find it best to send only married men into foreign service. We deplore your policy of persistent celibacy. Simon Magus has set up a matrimonial bureau at Samaria, where the names of some very fine widows are available. You wrote recently to Timothy that "you had fought a good fight." Fighting is hardly a recommendation for a missionary. No fight is a good fight. Jesus came, not to bring a sword, but peace. You boast that "I fought with wild beasts at Ephesus." What on earth do you mean? It hurts me to tell you this, Brother Paul, but in all of my twenty-five years experience, I have never met a man so opposite to the requirements of our Foreign Mission Board. If we accepted you, we would break every rule of modern missionary practice. Most Sincerely yours, J. Flavious Fluffyhead, Foreign Mission Board Secretary ______________________________________________ In Christ, John Whalen

Serotta writes: "Come now, are you saying that God expects us today to not eat any fat nor blood. I guess I need to start ordering my steaks well-done instead of rare! Maybe you should again apply this verse in the context it was written. How many animal sacrifices are you offering up these days? Seriously though Mr. Whalen, I am very sorry that you had such a bad experience with the Catholic church. But the way you are denigrating it on these boards is not right either. There is one way to salvation and that is through Jesus Christ. But Jesus showed that there are many paths to Him. But He chooses the right path for us, we do not get to. Jesus looks into our hearts and decides what we need to do to be His." _________________________________________________________ I will provide a more detailed discussion of the "Mass"(means sacrifice in Latin)-I provided the previous "just to get you thinking"? The Mass is a denial of the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ at Calvary and His resurrection. I will, as mentioned, provide more detail. For now, consider this: the RCC teaches that the Mass is a re-offering, a re-sacrifice, in an unbloody manner, of the Lord Jesus Christ. "... without shedding of blood is no remission". Heb 9:22 Almost every RCC doctrine contradicts scripture. My main contention is that the RCC teaches a works-based method of salvation, "another gospel", and thus is "accursed"(Galatians 1:6-9). I am not "degrading" it-scripture does that. I made no derogatory remarks- I quoted scripture. You are right that there is only one way and that is through Jesus Christ-were the RCC and you "do error" is that you believe something else is needed besides whatg was done 2000 years ago. No, it is finished. John Whalen

Serotta writes: "I do not believe the lengths some people here are willoing to go to in order to defame the Catholic church. Dad Ernie, what proof do you have that Transubstantiation does not happen? Jesus said "this is my body". There is no doubt that Peter was the Rock on which Christianity was built. You want to argue Papal infallibility, that's fine and I'll join you, but please don't try to belittle Peter, and please realize that the Catholic church does have a clear lineage all the way back to Peter. Most Catholics do not pray "to" Mary, nor do they beleive she is a deity. What they do is ask Mary to intercede on their behalf. Do you think Mary is in Heaven? Do you think Mary was chosen by God to bear His son Jesus? Then I don't see why this is such a problem. Signs? So you don't think that God still communicates with His children? Do you limit the method God might use? God-man believes he prophecizes, how is that different then some of the miracles witnessed by Catholic believers? Who are we to say that this absolutely cannot happen? Your own legalism is no better than the Pope's. There is wrong thinking in every denomination. The Catholic church goes beyond that, IMO, and is a goernmental institution as well. Do you seriously believe that none of the millions of Catholics were true Christians? IMO, some people here need to lighten up a little, and do more self examination before they jump on other Christians. _______________________________________________ Serotta: It shall be a perpetual statute for your generations throughout all your dwellings, that ye eat neither fat nor blood" Lev. 3:17 "Moreover ye shall eat no manner of blood, whether it be of fowl or of beast, in any of your dwellings.Whatsoever soul it be that eateth any manner of blood, even that soul shall be cut off from his people." Lev. 7:26, 27 "And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people" Lev. 17:10 ". Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood." Lev 17:12 (And on and on and on

Mobile21 writes: "Bottomline is the Papacy as one of the biblical insitutions depends directly on the biblical doctrine because it was created by it in the same way the authority of the Supreme Court depends directly on the Constitution." __________________________________________________________ From John M Whalen An argument that "self-destructs"/"commits suicide" The RCC teaches that the Bible can only be "interpreted" by its teaching office, the "magisterium" . A "sample" from the RCC position: "The following are the points to be treated: I. The existence of Divine traditions not contained in Holy Scripture, and the Divine institution of the living magisterium to defend and transmit revealed truth and the prerogative of this magisterium; II. The relation of Scripture to the living magisterium, and of the living magisterium to Scripture; III. The proper mode of existence of revealed truth in the mind of the Church and the way to recognize this truth; IV. The organization and exercise of the living magisterium; its precise r

Tiggr writes: "What if our interpritation of the Bible is not what God says it should be, how far off can we be and still get in? Matt 7:21-23 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. KJV Not pointing fingers or anything just something for all of us to think about " ________________________________________________________________ Would God "go to all the trouble" to preserve His word(preservation), but not have it presented in a form that his creatures could understand it's most important doctrines? That does not seem to be a very capable God, does it? Please read 2 Timothy 2:15. Much of the confusion many have regarding supposedly "contradictions" in scripture is dispelled by "rightly dividing the word of truth"(a command, not a request). I showed you the gospel of Christ in my previous post. Please post it for me. I want to make sure you understand, and thus believe, this "good news". This is the only gospel that will save you. It is so simple, a 5th grader can understand it. Did you know you will not find this gospel in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John? See if you can find the gospel of Christ(the gospel that saves you if you believe it) in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John(Hint;read Romans 16:25-what was "...kept secret since the world began...."?) The gospel of the kingdom is not equivalent to the gospel Paul preached. Gospel means, of course, "good news", but there is more than "one" gospel in scripture. I await your response. "...Speaking the truth in love...." John M. Whalen

Artsylady writes: "What if a person you are concerned about really wants to keep that counterfeit 1000 dollar bill when you're ready to offer him a genuine one. What if he doesn't believe you and thinks that his bill is the same thing. Don't you want to point out the flaws on his bill to show him that it's not the real thing?" My response: Thank you. Ms Artslady, for the question. Comment 1 I suggest "common ground" first. "Reason" with that person as "Columbo" would! That is, this person "thinks" his bill is the same thing. "Thinks" implies a "Belief". But what is that person's argument? He/she gave their "opinion", or assertion without support/evidence. An argument is different from an assertion. An assertion simply states a point of view, while an argument gives supporting reasons why the point should be considered as valid-the supporting ideas that "hold" the conclusion up. The reasons, then, become the topic of mutual discussion or analysis. But opinions are not evidence/proof. An assertion without evidence is useless. Do not, I repeat, do not, ask him to "believe you". We should avoid offering our "opinions". You do not want to get in a "In my opinion" dance with him! That dance will never end. Instead, say, "I am not asking you to believe me. Let's look at the evidence. OK?" Belief and the truth are independent. Absolute certainty about something is no assurance that you believe the truth. Someone may believe something with all their heart("sincerity"), and yet be in error. Mere belief does not guarantee you are correct. The opposite is also true. You may disbelieve something with absolute certainty, and yet be wrong. Just as belief does not guarantee something is true, doubt is no guarantee that something is false. The conclusion/argument: Belief makes nothing true, and the greatest doubt in the world makes nothing false-belief stands indepent of the truth itself. The truth goes on eternally regardless of one's belief, or lack therof. In this example, just because he "thinks" his bill is genuine does not make it so. See if he agrees with you on that(common ground). And conversely, just because you "believe" Christianity is true, does not make it so. But now, you have the opportunity to witness(a witness speaks out/testifies to the evidence about the reliability of the Bible, that the Lord Jesus Christ rose from the dead..............)-you have an opening! You can "reason" with him(Isaiah 1:18), based on evidence. You can now show him "the flaws", but use the logic below(i.e., both the "genuine" bill(Christianity") and his "counterfeit" bill(his "religion") cannot both be true). I make the above points merely to emphasize that all Christians should stay clear of the "in my opinion" approaches to discussing the subject of the validity of the Bible vs (whatever). Christians and non-Christians should be encouraged to ask questions to seek the truth-probing questions are essental in discovering the truth. But any "faith" which is not supported by evidence/proof(the "argument") is not faith, it is fantasy and folly. Comment 3 The argument that "All roads lead to the same destination", that all "religions"are equally true(Pluralism) is a self-refuting argument-it self-destructs, and here is why: If all "religions" are true, then Christianity is true. But part of the doctrine, "truth", of the Christian faith is that all other religions are false, i.e., "...I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh to the Father, but by me"(John 14:6), "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved"(Acts 4:12)-the exclusivity of Christianity. Either Christianity is true and others are false, or some other "religion"s true and Christianity is false. Logically, either way, all "religions" cannot be true. Thus, the Bible's claim to be the only revelation FROM God and OF God to mankind requires that all other religion's "scripture" be false. Comment 3 Many will say that the Holy Bible is not the only book, or exclusive book, inspired by God-for eg., the Koran, the Book of Mormon, the Vedas, and many more claim to come from God. Does the fact that Christianity teaches that other books are false cast doubt on the Holy Bible as well? That is, if so many others are wrong, why not the Bible? Answer: Whether other "scriptures" of other "religions" are true or false has no bearing on the Bible's infallibility or lack thereof. One apologest uses the following example: If 10/11 contestants failed to win a race, this can hardly be a plausible argument that therfore no one could have won. In our example, that there is counterfeit money circulating abundantly does not mandate that "genuine" money does not exist! In fact, it argues for its existence, otherwise counterfeiting would have no point/purpose. The Bible must be examined on it's own merits based on evidence. Now you have "the door", to "speak boldly"(Eph. 6:20) for our wonderful Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ! I hope this helps. I am "not too good" at apologetics! I will pray for you Ms Artsylady. You are an "ambassador for Christ"(2 Cor, 5:20, Eph. 6:20). What an honor! In Christ and with Christ, John M. Whalen

Perhaps the following "secular" analogy would be appropriate: Did you know how the Federal Reserve employees that have the responsibility to detect counterfeit money from "the real McCoy"/genuine money do this? They study/memorize the genuine notes-they do not study/memorize the counterfeit. They can detect the counterfeit only by knowing the genuine, the "truth", if you will. They "can spot a counterfeit" a mile away! "Thy word is true from the beginning..."Psalms 119:160 "... thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name." Psalms 138:2 Just my "two cents" worth! In Christ, John Whalen

Serotta writes" "Mr. Whalen...Believing is a verb, doesn't that make it a "work"? Receiving is certainly an action verb, wouldn't that also make this a "work"? Yes God's grace is freely given to all, but we do have to be willing to accept it. A hardened heart needs to be softened. You, as do most humans, confuse being "in love" with showing love. Love is an action not an emotion. Love is taking action to further someone elses spiritual well being while expecting nothing in return. Did Christ harden his heart against the Pharisees when the forced his crucifixion? No he did not. I think we all need to examine our motives and our hearts to see who we must soften our hearts toward. ___________________________________________________________________ The word believe(or some form of it) is used 98 times in John. Paul over and over and over uses the same word. Scripture says: "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Romans 4:5 ____________________________________________________________________I am showing love by telling the truth about a life and death matter-the issue of salvation, and what the divine antedote for "the wages of sin....death"(Romans 6:23). As previously posted, I love people, but I love truth more. And I will provide them the truth whether they ask for it or not. I am not to be a "man pleaser"(Proverbs 29:25;Acts 4:19,5:29;Gal. 1:10;Col. 3:23;2 Cor. 4:21 Thel. 2:4;;John 5:44,12:43)-popular, if you will. I am "...to please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier"( 2 Tim. 2:4). My brother is a doctor, so perhaps a medical analogy will clarify my argument. If one of our loved ones were physically ill, we would not want to be deceived. We would not want to make life and death decisions based on superstition or mysticism. We would want precise answers to specific questions. We would not want general notions, opinions(one of the reasons the Lord Jesus Christ sharply rebuked the Pharisees-relying on their traditions/opinions instead of the word of God), or empty words. We would actively engage all our faculties to judge the truth. We should desire to know the right standard by which to judge these crucial matters because physical life is at stake. How much more should we value the truth and the right standards when questions concerning eternal life is at stake? Someone may claim to be physically fit and well, while they may have cancer inside beginning to eat away at their physical life. When you visit a doctor, you want the truth, the right prescription, even if does not "make you feel good". Someone once said:"The only time truth hurts is when you don't tell it." Preaching the gospel of the grace of God is like heartsurgery(I talk to my brother the doctor a lot!)-it requires maximum precision because it is a life and death matter. Much of the presently used language to preach the gospel has become confusing at best, and heretical at worse(2 Cor. 2:17). We do serve a God of love-God is love. There is no limit to his love-He loves infinitely. We, being "humans", as you correctly state, cannot comprehend how magnificant and glorious His love is. However, the love of God has been exagerrated and presented in a "lopsided" manner. That is, there has been an overstatement of the love of God at the expense of His other divine attributes. Did you know that love is not the most often mentioned attribute of God in the Holy Bible? Remember the current "hot phrase": "God loves the sinner, but He hates sin". Catchy, but not true. "The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity"(Psalms 5:5). "Humans" like to separate the sin from the sinner and allow God to judge only sin, but God judges the sinner: "God judgeth the righteousness, and God is angry with the wicked every day." Psalms 7:11 God's most often mentioned attribute is His Holiness!(Read Isaiah prayerfully and notice how often this attribute is emphasized). Yes, we have a Gid who hates sin. But He will hate the sinner who has held on to his sin by not trusting/believing on the finished work of His only Begotten Son-the only remedy. Love is not the supreme attribute of God. Why? Because it is not the basis of salvation. Where are you told in the Holy Bible that loves saves you? We are told" "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God..." Eph. 2:8 God cannot, and will not, love anyone into heaven. Because of His Holiness, and His intoleration for sin, He had to do something about the sin issue first that is consistent with this attribute. And that He did, sending the Lord Jesus Christ to die in your place("...Christ died for our sins...." 1 Cor. 15:3-"for"="in the place of", "for the benefit of", "in behalf of"). It seems the following verse is on bumperstickers, in stadiums, etc.: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life". John 3:16 Examine it carefully. Does it say:"For God so loved the world that He decided to save it?" No. Does it suggest that He broke out in tears and sobbed:"Come on in to heaven?" No. He so loved the world that He gave(again, it is God who does the giving-we are to believe it) His Son to die. And this is the "offence" of the cross, the centrality of the cross. And why? Because we are(were now!) such rotten sinners in thought and deed, a Holy God cannot allow us into His Holy presence no matter how much He loves us! And this is why the Lord Jesus Christ uttered an awful and frightful thing while hanging on a cross reserved for criminals(us!): "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?" Psalms 22:1 God the Father forsook the most beautiful, lovely person to ever walk on this earth. And why? Notice the Lord Jesus Christ's response: "But thou are holy...." Psalms 22:3 When the Lord Jesus Christ, who knew no sin, was made sin for us(2 Cor. 5:21), my and your sin was put on Him. And God treated Him as He treats every sinner that will ultimately hold sin-He forsook His Son and allowed Him to die on a cros! His Holiness demands "condemning sin in the flesh"(Romans 8:3), and yet His love for us inspired Him to give His only Begotten Son to die in our place! This is love! In Christ, John M. Whalen

Wayne- You write: "There you go again brother. You accuse me of not wanting to "'join in' in defense of the Gospel, for the 'futherance of the Gospel'". What qualifies you to make such a statement? You don't know what I do...you don't because you never asked! Who are you to judge? Please brother...I will watch my words more closely but you should as well! Even Paul, the most unpopular apostle of all, spoke to his brethern with kinder words. I took your correction with grace I think. You need to go to the Lord in prayer and seek His word on this matter. I am beginning to believe that you thrive on strife and being unpopular. Your brother in Christ, Wayne My post went out after your response-I took your "you twist my words"probably too literally, as did your "I will not join in". My natural response was-I will go it alone, since no discussion was provided regarding "What saith scripture"? Yes, Paul was kind to his brethren. But he would not compromise on the gospel of the grace of God. That was "the dividing line", and any honest careful read of Galatians would conclude that Paul "would not let any one mess with" this gospel he received by revelation from the Lord Jesus Christ from heaven. I make no judgement of people, but all believers are to judge doctrine for its truth. Just as we make judgements about matters of life and health in the physical realm(for eg., "Bad mushrooms" vs. "Good mushrooms"), how much more should we not make judgements in the spiritual realm? There is a difference between tolerating people and tolerating ideas(rationality). How about it Wayne? People respect you on this board! Preach the gospel! They will listen to you. I agree with you-we probably agree on the important issue of salvation. But would not you agree that we need to present this message in clear, simple, scriptural terms? Paul always "reasoned out of the scriptures"? Why should we use our words when we have "the hammer" of the word? In Christ, John M. Whalen

'You twist words John. Your choice. I will not join in.' I am not twisting words-I "reasoned out of the scriptures" as we are all charged to do. I will continue to defend the gospel Paul preached( Paul refers to as"my gospel"), whether I have to do it alone or not. I will not allow this "lordship salvation", "another gospel", to pervert the gospel of Christ. The gospel is so simple-it is "5th grade english". But human nature, and the pride that is inherant in all of us, always seeks to add to the "simplicity which is in Christ", whether that be by "an altar call", "walking the aisle", "giving your life to Christ"(no one's life is their's to give, by the way)........... I am sorry, Wayne, that you do not want to "join in" in defense of the gospel, for the "furtherance of the gospel". I may be the most unpopularperson on this board, but my reputation is not important to me or the LORD-people's eternal destinies are. Please tell me which words I twisted-I quoted scripture, not "what I think"/"in my opinion". In Christ, John

Wayne writes: "Absolutely! But the heart matters more. Ask for clarification before you jump my brother and read the words in context. I have the privilege of knowing my dear brother Dave and therefore know what he meant when he said "giving their lives to Christ". He did not mean as a sacrifice brother but as commitment...abiding, following, believing. You make very sound points...just don't fall into the legalism trap. We are all believers here and have insights to share. Human language is limited...finite... and that is why we have so many problems with translations and understanding one another on occasion. Asking for clarification is perfectly acceptable." ________________________________________________________________________________ "... for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name." Psalms 138:2 Again, I repeat, we must not equate believing with "commitment, abiding, following".. If we do, we fall into the "Alice in Wonderland"syndrome, when the Queen said to Alice: "The word means what I say it means!" They are not equivalent. Again, do not confuse service with sonship. The biblical order is: Sonship, that service. Over and over scripture testifies that we are to believe the gospel of 1 Cor. 15:1-4! Repetition is one of the keys to learning. So: Salvation is a free gift offered to everyone who believes the gospel of 1 Cor, 15:1-4(Romans 6:23, Eph. 2:8-9). In Romans 4:4-5 God clearly declares that faith, and faith alone, is His requirement for justification in His sight. Over 150 verses state that salvation from the debt and penalty of sin is the sole issue of placing one's faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as Saviour. Giving one's life, heart("commitment") is not what faith in Christ is about. Salvation has nothing to do with "giving" God anything! Salvation is not my gift to God. Rather, it is the issue of receiving a gift from God. The issue in salvation is not what we give to Him, but what He gives to us-eternal life. The issue is not giving your life to Christ-it is Christ giving up His life as an atoning sacrifice for you. Salvation has nothing to do with "giving up your life", "surrendering your life".........-It was the Lord Jesus Christ who gave up His life and made full surrender when he yielded His life at Calvary. Again, when a lost person is told to "surrender his life, give his life to Jesus, commit his life to Jesus.........", this wrongly presumes that a person has something worthy to give(whether that is time, money, service......), and confuses SERVICE with SALVATION. It requires a "commitment" to serve Christ "up front" before salvation, and it presents a work-based performance system as a basis for acceptance by God. Phrases such as "Give your heart to Jesus" may sound very romantic, but we are not saved by "falling in love with Jesus"-we are saved by believing in the Lord Jesus Christ's finished work at Calvary and His resurrection 3 days later. Giving one's heart, life(commitment) is an activity of service to the Lord, and and, as such, service and dedication is something the LORD appeals to believers to do(Romans 12:1-2, for eg.). But this is service from those who have become his own. The biblical order is Sonship, then service. Service, then sonship is a work-based performance system, as typified by the Roman Catholic Church, and "perverts the gospel of Christ"(Gal. 1:7). I would ask again anyone that believes that I must make "commitment to follow Him" as a requirement for justification: How much "commitment"? 40%? 50%? 89%? How much "abiding"? How much "following"? Wayne, you should know Galatians! It is a stern, severe, corrective, and solemn message-there is no word of commendation, praise or thanksgiving. Paul's "heart" is laid bare here as the letters are peppered with deep emotion and strong feeling. This is his "fighting epistle"-he is on a war path, with no tolerance for legalism! It is the declaration of freedom from all types of legalism. While Romans was from Paul's "head" with its lawyerly, systematic treatise on justification by faith, and faith alone, Galatians was from his heart. It is the boldest, strongest declaration and DEFENSE(as is this post) of the doctrine of justification by faith in and out of the scriptures, and, as such, is God's polemic on behalf of the most vital truth of the Christian truth against any attack. That is, not only is a sinner saved by grace through faith(not commitment), but the saved sinner lives by grace(sanctification=commitment=the Christian "walk"). But we must not confuse justification(the declaration of righteousness) with sanctification! Yes, we are saved from the penalty of sin(justification), the power of sin(sanctification), and the presense of sin(glorification), but these are not equivalent biblical doctrines, and people are perverting the gospel of Christ by putting the proverbial "horse before the cart", i. e., they are placing sanctification=commitment=give your life to Christ in the wrong biblical order-as a "prerequisite" to justification, or as the means to justification. No, No, No!! Legalism, biblically, is not debating over the importance of words, for the serpeant's first temptation of the woman was to cast doubt on God's words: "...Yea, hath God said,..." Gen 3:1 He doubted the "inspiration" of God's words. And so it is today. People reject God's word and rely on what others say, opinion, feelings.......instead of the Book. The T.V. guide and the phone book are consulted more often. Legalism, biblically, entails adding some time of works-based system to the gospel Paul preached. The book of Galatians was Paul's letter to this cancer, even prompting Paul's placing a curse on such perversions of the gospel of Christ. I suggest all believers read Galatians Chapter slowly and prayerfully. Serotta writes: "I don't think that that is necessarily true. "Giving your life to Christ" can be an act of submission, it is not a "work". I do agree that God's grace is freely given, and that it is through this grace, not by works, that we are saved. But we must also remember the parable of the vineyard (Mat 20). The owner of the vineyard paid the same wages to those that worked the full day as to those that worked very little. He did expect those he hired in the morning to give a full days work. So we are saved by grace, and after that we prove our faith by what we do." It is "an act of submission", but, again, this "begs the issue"-this is not the biblical directive to appropriating salvation-it focuses on what "you do" instead of what was already done for you 2000 years ago by the Lord Jesus Christ! The passage you cite has nothing to do with salvation-the context is servants and rewards from their master! "if the person sincerely meant the words he was repeating, and willingly submitted his life to Christ, then what human has the right, or the authority, to say God does not honor that person's prayer?jim, anyone who makes that judgement is claiming to know the mind of God, and to be able to see into another person's heart, which none of us is capable of.submission to Christ is evidence of our faith. it is not a 'work', it is a priviledge. Sincerity is not the issue! There are "a lot of" sincere Muslims, Catholics. Mormons, Hindus, Hari Krishna'.............who are sincere. But sincerity does not determine the truth of life and death issues, God's word does. And there is only one person ever who died on an altar made for criminals and lived to tell about it-the Lord Jesus Christ. Budhha, Ghandi, Joseph Smith are all dead. And there is no salvation outside of faith in what the Lord Jesus Christ did by his death, burial, and resurrection 2000 years ago. Someone may be sincere, but they may be sincerely wrong. The Bible is the mind of God in written form. It is the final authority -I did not say I had the authority. Read the book for the authority! It may be a privilidge of service, but do not confuse the western defintition of work with the biblical definition: "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Romans 4:5 Again, you confuse "the Christian walk"=service=commitment= "evidence of faith"=SANCTIFICATION(to be set aside for God's use and service) with the doctrine of justification. Please read Romans and Galatians again. You say "we prove our faith by what we do". The Bible agrees, but we are not saved by "what we do". Again, you confuse "the fruit" of salvation=our walk=sanctification with the appropriation of it. Now, I will present the gospel that saves again, "...for it is the power of God unto salvation...."(Romans 1:16), and "...it is hid to them that are lost"(2 Cor, 4:3); "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen

Wayne Writes: "Brother John Whalen --- excellent insights. Only one point of dissension --- I think you mistook the Gospel clich