HUBIE

Again, clarification must be made. Evolution is an observed phenomenon - it is a fact which is not a matter of contention by any significant percentage of the scientific community. The mechanisms behind it are the theory (the coherent set of scientific principles that explain the phenomenon). So evolution is actually both a fact and a theory. For a starter for evidence, try Evolution Pages and 29+ Evidences for Macroevolution Faithquestions, Thanks for the reply and I'm sorry I've taken so long to respond - work keeps getting in the way of my hobbies! I've no issue with variation. I also understand intimately the "commonalities" that are present among species. This doesn't equal evolution and can't be made to explain the differences. The key to the whole puzzle is not what is common, but instead what is so different. A V-8 Internal combustion engine share operating prinicples with a Gas Turbine (jet) Engine, however; no matter how many commonalties they share, one can never become the other no matter how you manipulate the parts. They leave the investigator with the inescapable conclusion that there was an intelligent designer (Engineer) behind their existance. The biggest problem with evolution (which Darwin predicted by the way) is that Empirical Observation has completely failed to support the Theory. The Evolutionary Model has failed to produce ANY evidence of Macroevolution. I know this is frustrating to the Evolutionist's present, but it remains to be the true fact of the matter. Fossil Record - Zero. DNA - Zero. BioChemistry - Whopping Big Zero. Let me leave you with one thought. If Evolutionary Scientists had such faith in the Evolutionary Model, why have so many of them resorted to falsifying their experiments in order to try to convince us? Isn't falsifying experiments the cardinal sin of Science? And why won't the Evolutionary Community own up to the charlatins in their midst? I know most Christians and Creationists will humbly admit that there are many charlatins within the Christian Community; not that we like it, but it is what it is I guess. Joe

It appears that there are some Evoloutionists honestly seeking answers to their questions. Darwin's Theory of Evolution is still only a theory. Cite any evidence you have for this theory having moved from the status of theory into fact please. Creationism (in all of it's forms) is also only a theory. (Scientifically - it is what it is folks, don't throw darts at me please ) I personally believe in God as the creator of everything. Jesus is my Lord and Savior as well; but in order to be honest, I have to admit that Creation is as much a "Theory" as any other. Please cite any evidence you may have for Macro-Evolution. Micro-Evolution is another term for variation; so if you prefer to use Evolution and Variation as separate but distinct definitions, that is easily understood as well. I honestly believe that I cannot "prove" Creation to you, however, I can tell you why I find belief in a Divine Creator to be more intellectually honest than a belief in evolutionary processes. Joe

Yes to all.

Dennis, Good post. How do you relate (Gentiles) being taken back out (if that is a valid interpretation) from the tree in verses 20 and 21 with Eternal Security? Do you believe we are eternally secure or that we can loose our salvation? I'm not taking umbrage with the entireity of Replacement Theology, however, those who insist that "Israel" is now no longer God's chosen people are dead wrong. There are a lot of unsaved, condemmed Jews and Gentiles. God has a plan for Israel and he will perform the work in his time and his way. God has chastised the Nation of Israel many times in the past and I think he chastising them to some extent today. We Christians are still Gods adopted children and heirs to the throne with Jesus, but I''m also conviced that Israel has a Great place in this plan of our Fathers. How, and when are certainly open to debate, but I think you have to start with the same assumptions to avoid misunderstandings. The term Anti-Semitic is a strong one, and I probably should not have used it, however, many Christains look down on the Unsaved (incomplete) Jew; which is wrong. I personally believe that once saved is always saved (Jesus's words, not mine) "Those my Father gives me, will surely in no way be cast out". I also believe that God's covenant with Abraham is eternal. Therefore, I have come to the conclusion that the "normal" interpretation of Romans 11 is incorrect to some degree. I won't say I understand it any better, but by reading the whole of scripture, I can't beleive that Paul was talking about loosing one's salvation here. Gods Grace and Mercy to you Bro. Joe

Good info all. The United States is certainly headed for a long fall.... whether it be by natural disaster befalling on natural disaster, or by some act we committ that tosses us out of the worldly influence we now hold, is up to God to know and reveal in his time. I firmly believe we are in the birth pangs, but I still think we have a ways to go yet. Expect Israel to loose all her allies before God works the miracle of preserving her in the face of her enemies. The U.S. and her allies won't be the savior of Israel, but God will be. He will remove all support for her and deliver her from her enemies in a manner that leaves NO doubt as to who is to be praised for her redemption. It's cool that we support Israel, but everyone ought to expect our country to no longer support Israel, or possibly not be ABLE to support Israel before the end is ushered in. God WANTS to redeem them. His heart yearns for Israel. Remember Jesus upon entering Jerusulem on Palm Sunday? How he longed to gather the children like a hen gathers her chicks? God's coveneant with Israel is eternal, and he longs to bring his people back to him. Well, that's my view on the situation. I think all Americans should really be prepared for some terrible times to come soon. $4 a gallon gas and more hurricanes are just the beginning. God's Grace and Mercy to you all. Joe

Good post Dad Ernie, Replacement Theology is Anti-Semetisim, plain and simple. If I wasn't avoiding Key Life, I'd post it over there for Thor! God's Covenant with the Nation (people) of Israel is everlasting. I can't believe anyone could try to say anything else. If you get nothing else from study of the Scripture, you should understand how utterly faithful and consistent our Father is. Those of us saved by Grace through Jesus our Lord, could be those "grafted in" branches, but it's also possible that Jesus was talking about saved Jews. However, any theology that displaces the Jews from their rightful ownership of Cannan is dead wrong. God's Grace and Mercy to you Bro! Joe

Ovedya, Thanks for the reply. I can stipulate that free will has been corrupted with the fall. I can even see how irresistable grace is maybe a factor, but, and this is where I always get hung up on the Calvinist position. If God doesn't provide his irresistable grace to ALL, then some are created for eternal damnation. I can't see how it can be both ways. Either free will can/does lead many of us to "choose" to accept the "Gift" of slavation through Christ Jesus, or there are some who are "elected" for salvation before birth. The problem I have with that is that I don't think it is biblical, or necessarily even "evident" that this is how God is. I don't pretend to know the mind of God, but it just doesn't seem that the same God who would send Jonah to Nineva could be the same God who would create a human (eternal soul) who had NO, Zero, Zip, chance at redemption. I believe that God knows the endgame, but I don't think he is predisposed to "force" us into either decision. I believe everyone has the chance at redemption, but not all will accept the sacrifice. Are you able to see where my confusion lies? Maybe it's more of a heart matter for me..... I don't know. I'll continue to read, pray and study. Thanks again for any advice and support you can lend; I've still got much to learn.

If, as you postulate, free will after the fall is not possible. Then by default you have to have decided that God knowingly creates many for eternal damnation and they have "no" choice in the matter, and "no" hope for salvation. Either that, or you have to believe that "all" men will be saved. From what my study of scripture shows me, God isn't going to create humans for the sole purpose of eternal damnation. Ick! Just the thought of it is hideous! It's quite possible I don't understand the Calvinistic theology. I don't fully comprehend some of the Arminian positon either.... I've never "settled" this matter, and maybe it is high time that I did.... I've been sitting on the fence so long I'm starting to get piles. I'll continue to re-read what is here, but I'm not sure I have the mental capacity to make the committement to either position!

WW III? Nope, not even close IMNSHO. And a question in my response to DUSTYCANVAS. You mentioned that every great war in the 20th Century has been spoken of in the Book Of Revelation. Would you elaborate on that please? I've read and studied Revelation, and I don't see this. WW II in comparison had more death and destruction in one bombing raid than we've seen since the Iraqi War began. I haven't seen any major media outlets refer to this as WW III, I'd appreciate a link if you have one. Sounds like hyperbole to me. Personally, if you want a 200 million man Army, you ought to be looking to China. They are the only country large enough to field such an Army. They also have eyes on many other countries natural resources and are building more for what is already the largest Navy in the world.... If you think this is all for defense or for taking Tawian back into the fold, you're kidding yourself. I don't believe that Prophecy shows (or allows for) the destruction of Israel again, so I wouldn't worry too much about Iraq, Iran, Syria, or Egypt, the Isralies will take care of that problem (if is should arise), hopefully with our assistance. One other note, in most Eschatology Forums I view (contribute in) today, I get the feeling that there are a lot of other Christains out there rooting for the end times. God is patient, not wanting that ANY should perish. IMHO, we ought to be praying for opportunities to witness and praying for God to work out his perfect will in his time. I'm not saying we shouldn't study or be prepared, but we ought to be humbly seeking his will in the preparations for the end. I'm saddened by the prospect that so many will perish, that is of course tempered by my desire to see God and spend eternity in Heaven..... but still saddened just the same. Blessings to you all, Joe.

Eric, I would agree that from what I've heard about it, the Full Preterist position is definately heritical and false. I've been hearing a lot lately about the "Partial Preterist" position. I don't know if that's like being "sorta pregnant" or "partial athesim", etc., but from what I have heard and read on the Bible Answer Man program and website, there does seem to be some evidence that at least a portion of the Apostle John's Vision as written in Revelation has already occured. I would never accept any position that states we are in the millenial Kingdom now, or that Jesus has already returned (second coming), but I am very interested in studying. I'm on the fence as to whether I'm Pre-Mil, Ah-Mil, Post-Mil, etc. I'm not even sure where I stand with regard to the Great Tribulation. I think I understand the Dispensational view well, yet, I'm not totally comfortable with it. Paul told us that the Grace of the Lord was for Jew and Gentile alike, that we have been grafted into the Olive Tree...... Still learning and yearning to know more about my God and wonderful Savior. Peace. Joe

What was the name of the Book Leonard? I've been listening to Hank Hannegraff for years now, and his position is very similar. I think he considers himself a Partial Preterist. I'm really interested in learning more about the preterism position. Thanks, Joe

Well, there is a guy here in Maine who varnishes Moose scat and attaches sterling hooks to them and sells them as ear-rings. The Massachusets yuppies love it. Course, unless you have a moose or a good friend willing to go collect it for you...... Honestly, buy some very simple colored ornaments from Wal-mart, glue and sparkles, beads, etc. and turn the kids loose. Grandmotherly types love hand made kid ornaments.

Yeah - with all the money he made, I wonder if he [John lennon] could imagine no possessions. I'm sure he can now. As to the song. Sorry, don't know it, but it sounds like one I'd like to hear.

I heard that his lawyer was going to defend him by telling the truth. His quote in the New York Times was, "It was all innocent, my client was only clowning around"!

Julio Radillo from Laredo, Texas hardly qualifies as a "hillbilly". Eric Ok. Tejanobilly then!