HUBIE

Again, clarification must be made. Evolution is an observed phenomenon - it is a fact which is not a matter of contention by any significant percentage of the scientific community. The mechanisms behind it are the theory (the coherent set of scientific principles that explain the phenomenon). So evolution is actually both a fact and a theory. For a starter for evidence, try Evolution Pages and 29+ Evidences for Macroevolution Faithquestions, Thanks for the reply and I'm sorry I've taken so long to respond - work keeps getting in the way of my hobbies! I've no issue with variation. I also understand intimately the "commonalities" that are present among species. This doesn't equal evolution and can't be made to explain the differences. The key to the whole puzzle is not what is common, but instead what is so different. A V-8 Internal combustion engine share operating prinicples with a Gas Turbine (jet) Engine, however; no matter how many commonalties they share, one can never become the other no matter how you manipulate the parts. They leave the investigator with the inescapable conclusion that there was an intelligent designer (Engineer) behind their existance. The biggest problem with evolution (which Darwin predicted by the way) is that Empirical Observation has completely failed to support the Theory. The Evolutionary Model has failed to produce ANY evidence of Macroevolution. I know this is frustrating to the Evolutionist's present, but it remains to be the true fact of the matter. Fossil Record - Zero. DNA - Zero. BioChemistry - Whopping Big Zero. Let me leave you with one thought. If Evolutionary Scientists had such faith in the Evolutionary Model, why have so many of them resorted to falsifying their experiments in order to try to convince us? Isn't falsifying experiments the cardinal sin of Science? And why won't the Evolutionary Community own up to the charlatins in their midst? I know most Christians and Creationists will humbly admit that there are many charlatins within the Christian Community; not that we like it, but it is what it is I guess. Joe

It appears that there are some Evoloutionists honestly seeking answers to their questions. Darwin's Theory of Evolution is still only a theory. Cite any evidence you have for this theory having moved from the status of theory into fact please. Creationism (in all of it's forms) is also only a theory. (Scientifically - it is what it is folks, don't throw darts at me please ) I personally believe in God as the creator of everything. Jesus is my Lord and Savior as well; but in order to be honest, I have to admit that Creation is as much a "Theory" as any other. Please cite any evidence you may have for Macro-Evolution. Micro-Evolution is another term for variation; so if you prefer to use Evolution and Variation as separate but distinct definitions, that is easily understood as well. I honestly believe that I cannot "prove" Creation to you, however, I can tell you why I find belief in a Divine Creator to be more intellectually honest than a belief in evolutionary processes. Joe

Yes to all.

Dennis, Good post. How do you relate (Gentiles) being taken back out (if that is a valid interpretation) from the tree in verses 20 and 21 with Eternal Security? Do you believe we are eternally secure or that we can loose our salvation? I'm not taking umbrage with the entireity of Replacement Theology, however, those who insist that "Israel" is now no longer God's chosen people are dead wrong. There are a lot of unsaved, condemmed Jews and Gentiles. God has a plan for Israel and he will perform the work in his time and his way. God has chastised the Nation of Israel many times in the past and I think he chastising them to some extent today. We Christians are still Gods adopted children and heirs to the throne with Jesus, but I''m also conviced that Israel has a Great place in this plan of our Fathers. How, and when are certainly open to debate, but I think you have to start with the same assumptions to avoid misunderstandings. The term Anti-Semitic is a strong one, and I probably should not have used it, however, many Christains look down on the Unsaved (incomplete) Jew; which is wrong. I personally believe that once saved is always saved (Jesus's words, not mine) "Those my Father gives me, will surely in no way be cast out". I also believe that God's covenant with Abraham is eternal. Therefore, I have come to the conclusion that the "normal" interpretation of Romans 11 is incorrect to some degree. I won't say I understand it any better, but by reading the whole of scripture, I can't beleive that Paul was talking about loosing one's salvation here. Gods Grace and Mercy to you Bro. Joe

Good info all. The United States is certainly headed for a long fall.... whether it be by natural disaster befalling on natural disaster, or by some act we committ that tosses us out of the worldly influence we now hold, is up to God to know and reveal in his time. I firmly believe we are in the birth pangs, but I still think we have a ways to go yet. Expect Israel to loose all her allies before God works the miracle of preserving her in the face of her enemies. The U.S. and her allies won't be the savior of Israel, but God will be. He will remove all support for her and deliver her from her enemies in a manner that leaves NO doubt as to who is to be praised for her redemption. It's cool that we support Israel, but everyone ought to expect our country to no longer support Israel, or possibly not be ABLE to support Israel before the end is ushered in. God WANTS to redeem them. His heart yearns for Israel. Remember Jesus upon entering Jerusulem on Palm Sunday? How he longed to gather the children like a hen gathers her chicks? God's coveneant with Israel is eternal, and he longs to bring his people back to him. Well, that's my view on the situation. I think all Americans should really be prepared for some terrible times to come soon. $4 a gallon gas and more hurricanes are just the beginning. God's Grace and Mercy to you all. Joe

Good post Dad Ernie, Replacement Theology is Anti-Semetisim, plain and simple. If I wasn't avoiding Key Life, I'd post it over there for Thor! God's Covenant with the Nation (people) of Israel is everlasting. I can't believe anyone could try to say anything else. If you get nothing else from study of the Scripture, you should understand how utterly faithful and consistent our Father is. Those of us saved by Grace through Jesus our Lord, could be those "grafted in" branches, but it's also possible that Jesus was talking about saved Jews. However, any theology that displaces the Jews from their rightful ownership of Cannan is dead wrong. God's Grace and Mercy to you Bro! Joe

Ovedya, Thanks for the reply. I can stipulate that free will has been corrupted with the fall. I can even see how irresistable grace is maybe a factor, but, and this is where I always get hung up on the Calvinist position. If God doesn't provide his irresistable grace to ALL, then some are created for eternal damnation. I can't see how it can be both ways. Either free will can/does lead many of us to "choose" to accept the "Gift" of slavation through Christ Jesus, or there are some who are "elected" for salvation before birth. The problem I have with that is that I don't think it is biblical, or necessarily even "evident" that this is how God is. I don't pretend to know the mind of God, but it just doesn't seem that the same God who would send Jonah to Nineva could be the same God who would create a human (eternal soul) who had NO, Zero, Zip, chance at redemption. I believe that God knows the endgame, but I don't think he is predisposed to "force" us into either decision. I believe everyone has the chance at redemption, but not all will accept the sacrifice. Are you able to see where my confusion lies? Maybe it's more of a heart matter for me..... I don't know. I'll continue to read, pray and study. Thanks again for any advice and support you can lend; I've still got much to learn.

If, as you postulate, free will after the fall is not possible. Then by default you have to have decided that God knowingly creates many for eternal damnation and they have "no" choice in the matter, and "no" hope for salvation. Either that, or you have to believe that "all" men will be saved. From what my study of scripture shows me, God isn't going to create humans for the sole purpose of eternal damnation. Ick! Just the thought of it is hideous! It's quite possible I don't understand the Calvinistic theology. I don't fully comprehend some of the Arminian positon either.... I've never "settled" this matter, and maybe it is high time that I did.... I've been sitting on the fence so long I'm starting to get piles. I'll continue to re-read what is here, but I'm not sure I have the mental capacity to make the committement to either position!

WW III? Nope, not even close IMNSHO. And a question in my response to DUSTYCANVAS. You mentioned that every great war in the 20th Century has been spoken of in the Book Of Revelation. Would you elaborate on that please? I've read and studied Revelation, and I don't see this. WW II in comparison had more death and destruction in one bombing raid than we've seen since the Iraqi War began. I haven't seen any major media outlets refer to this as WW III, I'd appreciate a link if you have one. Sounds like hyperbole to me. Personally, if you want a 200 million man Army, you ought to be looking to China. They are the only country large enough to field such an Army. They also have eyes on many other countries natural resources and are building more for what is already the largest Navy in the world.... If you think this is all for defense or for taking Tawian back into the fold, you're kidding yourself. I don't believe that Prophecy shows (or allows for) the destruction of Israel again, so I wouldn't worry too much about Iraq, Iran, Syria, or Egypt, the Isralies will take care of that problem (if is should arise), hopefully with our assistance. One other note, in most Eschatology Forums I view (contribute in) today, I get the feeling that there are a lot of other Christains out there rooting for the end times. God is patient, not wanting that ANY should perish. IMHO, we ought to be praying for opportunities to witness and praying for God to work out his perfect will in his time. I'm not saying we shouldn't study or be prepared, but we ought to be humbly seeking his will in the preparations for the end. I'm saddened by the prospect that so many will perish, that is of course tempered by my desire to see God and spend eternity in Heaven..... but still saddened just the same. Blessings to you all, Joe.

Eric, I would agree that from what I've heard about it, the Full Preterist position is definately heritical and false. I've been hearing a lot lately about the "Partial Preterist" position. I don't know if that's like being "sorta pregnant" or "partial athesim", etc., but from what I have heard and read on the Bible Answer Man program and website, there does seem to be some evidence that at least a portion of the Apostle John's Vision as written in Revelation has already occured. I would never accept any position that states we are in the millenial Kingdom now, or that Jesus has already returned (second coming), but I am very interested in studying. I'm on the fence as to whether I'm Pre-Mil, Ah-Mil, Post-Mil, etc. I'm not even sure where I stand with regard to the Great Tribulation. I think I understand the Dispensational view well, yet, I'm not totally comfortable with it. Paul told us that the Grace of the Lord was for Jew and Gentile alike, that we have been grafted into the Olive Tree...... Still learning and yearning to know more about my God and wonderful Savior. Peace. Joe

What was the name of the Book Leonard? I've been listening to Hank Hannegraff for years now, and his position is very similar. I think he considers himself a Partial Preterist. I'm really interested in learning more about the preterism position. Thanks, Joe

Well, there is a guy here in Maine who varnishes Moose scat and attaches sterling hooks to them and sells them as ear-rings. The Massachusets yuppies love it. Course, unless you have a moose or a good friend willing to go collect it for you...... Honestly, buy some very simple colored ornaments from Wal-mart, glue and sparkles, beads, etc. and turn the kids loose. Grandmotherly types love hand made kid ornaments.

Yeah - with all the money he made, I wonder if he [John lennon] could imagine no possessions. I'm sure he can now. As to the song. Sorry, don't know it, but it sounds like one I'd like to hear.

I heard that his lawyer was going to defend him by telling the truth. His quote in the New York Times was, "It was all innocent, my client was only clowning around"!

Julio Radillo from Laredo, Texas hardly qualifies as a "hillbilly". Eric Ok. Tejanobilly then!

Well, Mark Twain was right. If you don't like the weather in New England, give it five minutes, it will change. Today it was mostly sunny and in the mid 30's. Since Thanksgiving however, we have had 4 inches of snow, hail, sleet, freezing rain and yesterday we had a Noreaster' with about 3 1/2" of wind driven rain. Wind gusts up to 50 knots! Now it's flooding all over the place..... got about 4" of it in my cellar. I didn't even know this could happen, however, there was a snowstorm on Thanksgiving day and about 4 miles from here a Tornado touched down! I've heard thunder and seen lighting during a snow storm before, but a TORNADO? Heh, heh, heh, and people think God can't do anything!

You should definately pray, and you should Probably tell him. Being a guy myself, I know we are not too good with subtle messages, or "hints". I was praying for a wife when I met mine.... had SHE not gotten up the nerve to ask me out, we might still be dancing around the whole dating subject...... Let's face it, some of us guys (most) just are not too good with emotions and feelings. I'll pray for you that it works out to HIS glory. Blessings ~ Joe

Great responses guys. I guess we only can imagine what ours brains have been programmed in. Sometimes I try to think outside the box and imagine Jesus as more Middle Eastern in appearance.... He probably looks a little like Ravi Zacharias! Wouldn't that be hoot! God told us we were made in his image, so I have to assume he looks something like us. Course, my mind blows like a cheap fuse every time I try to actually ponder God and his Glory. I can't make a decent bookshelf using all the best tools money can buy. He made the trees, the steel, etc..... So actually imagining him is beyond my frail capabilities. Wasn't one of the Psalms about the futility of trying to know the mind of God? Joe

I didn't know what forum this belonged in... if it belongs anywhere! There is a "wacky news" thread where people see visions of the Virgin Mary or Jesus in everything from grilled cheese sandwiches to truck tailgates. Whenever I read a book, especially the Bible, I have all these "pictures" in my mind of who or how these people look. I guess it's a natural tendency for our mind to "create" a picture for the words. Whenever I think of Jesus, I guess I can't help but make a mental picture or "image" of how I think he must have looked. I don't know if this came from all the movies, picture books as a kid, or the typical Judeo-Christian Crufix I saw all the time growing up and stuff, Da-Vinci paintings, etc. Soo, when I picture Jesus, he's typically a long haired, bearded, smiling (or laughing) and white. What do you picture? Nothing heavy, I'm just the curious sort.... Blessings, ~Joe~

I've heard tell that hillbillys's worship their trucks...... I think this is right up there with the Virgin Mary Grilled Cheese Sandwich!

Many thanks to all who have responded. I appreciate your honesty and openness.... wish I had this at our home church. I've decided with my wife and family to start looking for a new church, God will lead us where he wants us. I will take to heart all your advice, and I'm gonna start by getting back into the Bible more, and more.... I will believe that all of you believe until I get there too. Sorta like "Lord I believe, but help me overcome my unbelief"? Again, Thanks. (((((WORTHY BOARDS)))) Joe

Hey All, Gonna post this and step out for a while. I'm at the end of my rope I guess. Dani's topic hit so close to home it actually physically hurt. I've gotten to the point where I no longer know who or what I am. If God is taking me through a dark valley.... I don't recognize it as Him anymore. Like Paul I do things I don't want to do and almost NEVER do the things I should. I'm not even sure I want to know the actual answers anymore. Lots of head knowledge, almost no heart feeling. I can't even honestly profess any love of Jesus right now and that really hurts. I feel totally abandoned, empty, and hopeless. The more I read the Bible, the more unsure of my positon I get I guess. One passage assures me of eternal security, then another talks about apostasy, hypocrites and those who were on the path but are now lost..... I feel like David, I want God to renew the joy of my salvation. I feel closer to death today, than I ever have before in my life. I want Heaven, but I'm not sure I am going, or if I'm just one of those professing faith to avoid Hell. I'm so dammed confused! I was reading a Lee Strobel book the other day, he mentioned interveiwing a man who used to preach alongside of Billy Graham who is now a noted Atheist. He stated that he "missed" Jesus, but could no longer reach out to him. In short, this is how I have been feeling. It seems like my prayers are not even getting out of my head. I can't seem to even be honest with myself anymore. I know I can't fool God, and it's hard to honestly ask forgiveness if you are not even sure you want to stop the besetting sin..... Does this make ANY sense? I'm thinking of leaving our Church because I can't stand to be around some of those people. I'm wondering if what annoys me about them is what parts of myself I hate that I see in them. God tells us to Love the Church, but right now, with some exceptions, I couldn't care less if I ever saw them again. Like Dani expressed, I feel broken. I want to be fixed..... I think. If this is all that Life is susposed to be, I don't want it anymore.

Sadly enough MK202002, your figures may be too low. The numbers are just mind blowing. There are reports that Mao killed in excess of 100,000,000. The Japanese Empire wiped out close to 50,000,000? No one really knows how many Hitler and Stalin killed. The Rwandan Genocide is just now coming to light. It is possible that the Pale Horse is on the loose. What comes next? Regardless, as the Apostle John wrote, "Even so Lord Jesus, Come."

I wouldn't say that holding both positions simultaneously equals Cognitive Disonance, but it's close. I'd have to go with Arminian all the way, but I look around and see total depravity. I think my cross to bear is that I'm on the fence so often. I'm not sure we can corner God on any absolutes. Joe

Keith, Thanks for the work you did putting this all together. I hadn't seen the significance of the Sabbath Day explained this way before. Lots to digest! Isn't is amazing when God reveals something to you that has been there all along, you just haven't "made the connection" before? To me it's as surprising as if I were asleep and he just reached down and "shook" me. Blessings Bro!