godrulz

Anecdotally, many God-fearing believers or missionaries have suffered loss of property and/or life in their houses in a storm. The blood on the doors was a specific historical context in Egypt dealing with God's judgment and then "Passover" blessing. It is bad Bible interpretation and application to generalize it to a storm immunity principle for all believers in all ages. This may be presumption and not faith (like drinking poison and playing with snakes). God can and does protect us at times, but we still live in a fallen world and can be subject to accidents and weather disasters. If the conference person's idea is right, perhaps the believer and not the house has immunity. Maybe we should go to unbeliever's houses in a storm to protect them so they can see the power of God and get swept into the Kingdom?!

Rick Joyner helped Jim and his second wife set up Covenant House for fallen leaders a while back in Charlotte. What is he preaching exactly and what is your source (specific accusations avoid slander)? I think Jim has gone through the ringer and may be broken. He wrote a book called "I Was Wrong" renouncing past beliefs and practices. Is it not possible to restore him to some sort of accountable ministry (I think so)? God is the Judge, but certainly we need discernment and scrutiny of his ministry in light of his past. I do not think he will have the public influence he once had, but he may help some individuals. I certainly did not like him or his past ministry, but we are not talking about the identical man and motives now.

Is not the usual pre-trib. understanding that the rapture starts the 7 year clock (Daniel 9; Revelation 4-20) leading to the visible return of Christ with the church to Jerusalem at the end? It is usually understood that there will be 3 1/2 years of peace under the Antichrist and then God's judgments and plagues for the last 3 1/2 (believers not on earth). The entire period is technically called the Tribulation with the last part being true tribulation, the Great Tribulation. I suspect we cannot be dogmatic about all end time details. The emphasis in Scripture is: 1) Know that Christ is coming back for and then with His Church. 2) Occupy until He does come! Let us put more time and energy into proclaiming the Gospel and showing cultists the Deity of Christ than eschatological non-essentials (important truths but not essential for salvation).

"Finney's Systematic Theology" - Charles G. Finney "The Nature and Character of God" - Winkie Pratney "The Complete Works of Francis A. Schaeffer" "The Truth Shall Make You Free" - Gordon C. Olson "Decision Making and the Will of God" - Garry Friesen "The Kingdom of Self" "The god-players" - Earl Jabay "The God They Never Knew" - George Otis "Revolution in World Missions" - K.P. Yohannan "Openness of God" - Clark Pinnock and others "Most Moved Mover" - Pinnock "God of the Possible" - Gregory Boyd Counter-cult books C.S. Lewis

There was a church years ago in Portand, Oregon

Guardiands: There are at least 4 majors views of the atonement in church history. The traditional view may not be correct nor is it often understood. Jesus died as a man. Deity does not die. Yes, He is the God-Man, but the need for an 'infinite atonement' is questionable (I don't mean the Savior did not have to be God...just that the eternal God cannot die, but the human nature <God-Man> can). This is a trinity forum so I will NOT get more into it. The traditional 'Satisfaction Theory' may not be biblical and has problems. The 'Moral Government' theory (Charles G. Finney= public justice and governmental problems rather than appeasement) seems to me to be more biblical. Note to MM and Linda: Timothy is right. Biblical, historical, orthodox Christianity is trinitarian. Other views that believe the Deity of Christ may be our brothers and sisters in Christ, but they sure add confusion to the church and especially to you. If you want to know about the Trinity, they are not the source. They are against it. I wish they would put their time and energy into showing J.W.'s and Mormons about the love and Deity of Christ instead of confusing regenerate fellow believers. Note: God honors faith and obedience, not theological excellence. The Gospel can be understood by a child. However, we need a minimum level of truthful content and the person and work of the Lord Jesus as an object of our faith.

Mormon Mike: I commend your interest in this subject. Scripture properly understood must complement and not contradict itself. Jn.14:28 says the Father is greater than Jesus in the context of Christ being on earth as the God-Man. A different Greek word (better) would have been used to show inequality in nature. Hebrews 1 says Christ is better (superior) than the angels since He was uncreated God and they are created, yet as the God-Man, positionally, for a time, He was made 'lower' (Heb.2:7,9) than them in role but not nature. In Acts, Christ is now forever the God-Man and could be seen at the right hand of the Father. Before Christ came to earth (incarnation) He was spirit but appeared in the Old Testament as the angel of the Lord (theophany). Post-resurrection and ascension He is one person with two natures like on earth, except the God-Man now has a glorified body instead of flesh and blood. I Timothy 2:5 says there is ONE God and one mediator now, the man Christ Jesus. The Father is God; the Son is God; the Holy Spirit is the same God (NOT a god). The Father is not the Son; the Son is not the Spirit; the Father is not the Spirit. One must demonstrate from Scripture that there is only one true God (Deut. 4:39; 32:39; Is. 43:10; 44:6,8; 45:5,22; 46:9; I Cor. 8:6; Gal.4:8; I Tim. 1:17). We must also show each of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit have the titles and attributes of personality and Deity. Finally, we show the three are distinct in some sense. The conclusion is that God is perfect unity in essence (more than purpose and will) with diversity in personal distinctions (not 3 gods or 3 'human-understanding' persons). This comes by His revelation and not our inventive reason, though it is reasonable if that is they way He is (possible God is this way). Mormonism is tritheism= (1+1+1=)3 separate gods (personages). Polytheism is pagan and extra/contra-biblical (it helps to contrast what the triune God is not). Christianity is monotheism= one God (nature/essence/being)revealed in 3 (1x1x1=3) co-eternal, co-essential, co-existent persons (personal distinctions). Judaism, Christianity, and the Bible are clearly monotheistic. This is the crux of the matter here. Imperfect analogies: time= past (time), present (time), future (time)...distinct, yet all time. Hebrew word for 'one' is often a compound unity (another word is used for a solitary single 'one'

Openness Look under Openness Messages from Others Steve may be coming from a perspective known as the "Openness of God" theology. This is one of the main controversies today as reported in Christianity Today. Some writers include Clark Pinnock, Gregory Boyd, Sanders, Olson, Otis, Hasker, Rice, McCabe, Wolterstorff, etc. Some thoughts: Omniscience is better defined as God knows all that is knowable. Omnipotence means God can do all that is possible (some things are absurd or logically contradictory for God to do). Can an omniscient being know the future free choices of man as a certainty before they happen, or does He know them as they really are= possibilities? Much of prophecy is conditional! and shows God changing His mind and the future in response to man's repentance and prayer (Hezekiah, Ninevah). Predictive prophecy will come to pass since God will make it so regardless of man's choices (First and Second Coming of Christ). Only some of the future is fixed. Much of the future is open when it relates to free will contingencies (may or may not happen). Time is an endless duration or succession (God is everlasting) and is an aspect of the personal God. The 'eternal now' concept is from Greek pagan philosophy. God experiences the past, present, and future similar to us. He knows the past and present perfectly (unlike us), but some aspects of the future are known as possibilities until they happen and become actual objects of knowledge (like a cosmic chess game). I believe this theology is more Biblical (read dozens of books and articles on both sides and studied 100s of hours) and presents God as personal, relational and not an unchanging cosmic blob who is not truly free to act, think, change his mind, and experience. Properly understood, it clears up many contradictions and aburdities with free will, predestination, election, prayer, evangelism, will of God, etc. (Calvinism). Check out the above websites for a few articles to start your quest for a credible alternative to the traditional view. Steve's view of this prophecy may not be as wrong as it seems. It definitely also does not refer to NYC (shadow2b).