Brother Chad

I would like to point out that it is very clear throughout the NT that there is a distinction made between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. As far as labeling this distinction to mean that there are three people in the Godhead is what confounds me.

Taking this one off the air!

Taking this off the air!

That will be fine. However, after your post I would like the chance to add some history of the Trinitarian doctrine and show where it sacrifices some essential truths of the Scritures. I am however very reluctant to be labeled as a modalist as I have said before. I am a man of God and thus go by what the Bible tells me. Any man-made names given to me are just that. I believe in the "Oneness" of God and the Bible reveals this truth to me. Instead of labeling what we believe, I think the best way to go about this debate is to show the Word of God by using the Bible as the foundation of our arguments. By taking the time to dwell on the history of man's doctrines, I fear we are getting away from what needs to be discussed here. However, if you believe this will shed light on anything by all means feel free to do what you will. You may also feel free to label my doctrine whatever you wish because I intend to show that God is one in nature, essence, and character and nothing you say will detract from these truths. So go on and show some history.

I would like to first tackle the thought of Ovedya that I am a modalist. I would first like to say that in some ways my theology is closely related to the modalist point of view and in others it is not. So that no mysteries are left for those reading this discussion I will explain what I believe: 1) I believe that the Bible is the true Word of God and is without error. 2) I believe in strict monotheism- that God is numerically one. 3) I believe that the one God of the Old Testament, whose name is Yahweh, became a man in the person of Jesus Christ. Jesus, the Son of God, is both fully God and fully man, being the visible image of the one invisible God. Jesus' deity is none other than that of the Father. As it pertains to His humanity, Jesus was born of a virgin in time. 4) I believe that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God Himself, primarily as He relates to mankind in our adoption as children of God and in our sanctification. The Spirit is the actions or works of God. 5) I believe that salvation is based solely on the substitutionary death of Jesus Christ and is completely an undeserved gift of God. The Biblical experience of salvation consists of: faith, repentance, baptism in water by immersion in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the initial sign of speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance. 6) I believe that Jesus died for our sins, was resurrected and ascended into heaven where he presently reigns. We also believe in a literal, bodily return of Jesus Christ after a time of Great Tribulation, both to claim his bride and to execute vengeance on an unbelieving world. 7) I believe there is coming a time when all who ever lived will stand before Jesus Christ to be judged and that all who are not saved will be cast into the lake of fire. I cannot say that I believe the three roles of God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are consecutive because the Spirit of God was doing work at the creation. However, I do see that the Son is not shown until after the Incarnation and that God the Father is not used until after this event as well. All verses in the Old Testament that speak of the Son are prophetic and had not happened when they were written. I hope this clears up any questions as to what I believe before I go on. I did not ignore what you said about Jesus existing in eternity past with the Father. I don

Brother Ovedya asks,

As I stated before, we both have such a different grasp of what is being said in the Bible it almost amazes me. However in all fairness I believe I should be given an opportunity to state how I see these verses compared to yours. So onward through the fog we go. Let

I hope all is well with you, Ovedya and those watching this debate. I hope to show in this discussion that God has shown Himself to be one in nature and substance. That this same God has manifested Himself in different roles, functions, or modes to reveal His Word to His creation. I will also show where the Trinitarian doctrine does not fit into the Biblical truths which we all agree are the infallible Word of God. I would like to first start by discussing Jesus and His birth. I now understand and correct me if I am wrong that the Trinitarian doctrine sees the Word in John 1:1 to mean that Jesus Christ is the "eternally begotten Son", that He has been since the beginning of time. My view is that the Word is just that, the word, thought, plan, or thinking of our Father God. On this point I believe we will just have to agree to disagree. So here is how I see this particular situation: Galatians 4:4 says, "But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, Luke 1:35, says, "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. Hebrews 1:5 says, "For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? In these three verses of scripture we have a specific moment in time when the Son would be born. This would have to negate the claim that the Son was eternally begotten in my understanding. Because of this begetting Jesus "shall be called the Son of God". Jesus was not the Son of God before the Incarnation because Jesus had not been begotten (fathered, sired, or procreated). Another point I would like to bring up with these verses is the fact that the Holy Spirit came upon Mary in the conceiving of the baby in her womb, yet we all say that God the Father is Jesus' Father. With the Trinitarian doctrine, this would give Jesus two Fathers. (If I am not correct or misrepresenting your view on this subject please forgive me). Due to time constraints this will be my first and only point for today. That being that Jesus as a co-eternal person in the Godhead with God the Father is actually not so. Clearly Jesus was begotten at a specific time in history and not eternally begotten. This would in essence make one of the members of the Trinity not co-eternal. My question to you, Ovedya, would be to show me where Jesus Christ is shown to be eternally begotten or co-eternal with the Father in light of these verses I have given?

Yes Jesus told His disciples to baptize in the name (singular not plural) of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. So His disciples did exactly as He told them to do, they baptized in the name of the only One who saved us from our eternal death: Jesus Christ. For those who say this isn't right, they are saying that the only people who were with Him throughout His earthly ministry didn't understand what He meant and that church fathers later on did understand, even without ever meeting or being with Jesus. Where is the logic in that?

Alright no one is biting just yet, but I have a feeling it will happen soon. So we have that Jesus as a man was inferior to the Father and submitted to the will of the Father. So as deity we have some who claim that Jesus was a person in the Godhead along with the Father and the Spirit. The Bible says, "The words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works" (John 14:10). This statement of Jesus does not say that He is another person of God. He declares that everything He says is from the Father who is dwelling in Him. How can the Father dwell in the man Jesus Christ and Jesus be a co-equal "person" in the Godhead? Colossians 2:9, " For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." This verse once again states what John 14:10 does. That in Jesus Christ ALL the FULNESS of the Godhead bodily dwells. That would mean by Trinitarian terminology that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are in Jesus because by Scripture we see that all the fulness of the Godhead dwells in Him. (As a point, in oneness we don't believe that God the Son is good terminology since the Son is referring to Jesus' humanity).

Explain aspects of the "same being"? If Jesus is a co-equal person in the Godhead then He would know everything the Father knows, right? If Jesus has to wait to do anything until the Father says so, then you don't have a co-equal member, rather you have a subordinate deity, right?

These passages say otherwise: -Mark 13:32, "But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. -John 5:19, "Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. -John 14:28, "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I." Clearly the Bible is not speaking of two "co-equal" and "divine" "persons" in these and other verses like them, so what is a logical explanation for these verses?

Where do you get that being born of water is a natural birth? If water baptism isn't that important to new believers then why did Jesus get baptized? Why did all new converts in Acts get baptized?

No and neither is belief in the Oneness of God. Only belief and faith that Jesus Christ took all our sins and washed them away when He died on that cross. Repent, be baptized in Jesus name and receive the Holy Ghost. This is what the apostles taught and that is all you need. The Oneness will come when you study the Bible further.

I understand how you feel. The Trinity has been a part of Christianity for a long time (too long if you ask me). It has nothing to do with the fact that the RCC is spewing out man-made dogmas left and right. Most people who are a part of that organization are probably very good Christian people. It also has nothing to do with the fact that the word trinity is not in the Bible. We don't believe because of what the Bible says and the understanding of what the Bible says about Jesus. I will be very simple with this because the Oneness is not some mystery like some would say of the trinity. 1) Is God the Father a Spirit? Is God the Father Holy? If you answer yes to these two questions which the Bible clearly state several times then wouldn't that make the Holy Spirit the Father or do we have two Holy Spirits. Do you ever notice that God the Father used "His" Holy Spirit to conceive the baby Jesus. Yet God the Father is the Father of Jesus. These are roles or functions of our one true God and not persons in a Godhead. I don't even feel the need to get into who Jesus Christ was because this right here proves that the Holy Spirit and the Father are one in the same. Otherwise you have polytheism which is what I see alot of Trinitarians going towards in this forum. Seeing more than One in Heaven is Polytheism whether you admit it or not. We are just trying to understand just like the rest out there. Something like the Trinity that has been held to be truth for so long is obviously going to be hard to deny but if we see that the Truth is something else, isn't that all we want is truth? God is not a spirit. Though He is equated as such in the Bible, this is in reference to the Holy Spirit. God, being the head of the Trinity, is outside of our ontology. This means that He is neither physical or spirit bound...He simply exists outside of our realm of understanding. Jesus, however, is the physical person in the Trinity and the Holy Spirit is the spiritual person in the Trinity....different in form but "same" in ontology (though still above our metaphysical realm). Jesus is either part of a Trinity or not God at all. Jesus cannot simply be a manifestation of God; if this were the case then how could He die? God cannot die, yet Jesus did. It would make absolutely no sense. It is impossible in a philosophical realm, and biblical, for Oneness to work. You just don't have a clear picture of who Jesus Christ is! Look here: I Corinthians 8:6, "To us there is but one God, the Father,of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." This explains it perfectly. There is one God who is our Father. He manifested Himself in flesh as Jesus Christ. And now we have a God-man who can be our mediator. God came down to earth and not only is our Creator but is our Savior as well.

I assume I will! That is a sad thing because I have shown that our view is not heretical with the Bible. Our views of oneness are heretical to the man-made doctrine of the trinity.

I understand how you feel. The Trinity has been a part of Christianity for a long time (too long if you ask me). It has nothing to do with the fact that the RCC is spewing out man-made dogmas left and right. Most people who are a part of that organization are probably very good Christian people. It also has nothing to do with the fact that the word trinity is not in the Bible. We don't believe because of what the Bible says and the understanding of what the Bible says about Jesus. I will be very simple with this because the Oneness is not some mystery like some would say of the trinity. 1) Is God the Father a Spirit? Is God the Father Holy? If you answer yes to these two questions which the Bible clearly state several times then wouldn't that make the Holy Spirit the Father or do we have two Holy Spirits. Do you ever notice that God the Father used "His" Holy Spirit to conceive the baby Jesus. Yet God the Father is the Father of Jesus. These are roles or functions of our one true God and not persons in a Godhead. I don't even feel the need to get into who Jesus Christ was because this right here proves that the Holy Spirit and the Father are one in the same. Otherwise you have polytheism which is what I see alot of Trinitarians going towards in this forum. Seeing more than One in Heaven is Polytheism whether you admit it or not. We are just trying to understand just like the rest out there. Something like the Trinity that has been held to be truth for so long is obviously going to be hard to deny but if we see that the Truth is something else, isn't that all we want is truth?

So answer me this, when God says that he uses the earth as a footstool, what does He mean?

BTW: Regarding the quote above....that's unity in plurality. Maybe so, but not in the sense you are trying to come up with. Even Trinitarians believe Jesus was fully a man, right?

Hmmm...then Stephen saw a metaphore? Also, "sit" and "stand" are locative - pronouns in the English language. So Stephen saw a Spirit being (God) and Jesus? Wouldn't this be polytheism or subordinationism? No. it would only be Polytheism if we said they were two separate Gods. They are the same God, two persons By saying "they" you are saying it whether you admit to it or not! No chad, I am not. We have answered all your questions. Would you show us the same consideration by answering ours rather than just firing back question after question? What is your question? Stephen saw Jesus!!

Hmmm...then Stephen saw a metaphore? Also, "sit" and "stand" are locative - pronouns in the English language. So Stephen saw a Spirit being (God) and Jesus? Wouldn't this be polytheism or subordinationism? No. it would only be Polytheism if we said they were two separate Gods. They are the same God, two persons By saying "they" you are saying it whether you admit to it or not! No chad, I am not. We have answered all your questions. Would you show us the same consideration by answering ours rather than just firing back question after question? What is your question?

Hmmm...then Stephen saw a metaphore? Also, "sit" and "stand" are locative - pronouns in the English language. So Stephen saw a Spirit being (God) and Jesus? Wouldn't this be polytheism or subordinationism? Please don't answer a question with a question. I am challenging your assertion that the term "right hand of God" is merely a metaphor. Is Jesus God or not? Yes, Jesus is God the Father manifest in flesh. He is both fully God and fully man. This has been my stance since the beginning. And by the way, I believe I have answered more of your questions than you have of mine. You are saying over and over again that Stephen saw two persons in heaven and the third person was inside him. So you are saying there was another person inside of Stephen and that when heaven opened up, Stephen saw Jesus as He was on earth and Stephen saw God the Spirit. How come Stephen is the only man in the history of the world who can see a spirit. By definition a spirit is invisible! I feel like I am in a trinity nightmare here. I answer your questions and they are not good enough. I ask questions and get another question or an answer that isn't good enough. On and on we go.

Hmmm...then Stephen saw a metaphore? Also, "sit" and "stand" are locative - pronouns in the English language. So Stephen saw a Spirit being (God) and Jesus? Wouldn't this be polytheism or subordinationism? No. it would only be Polytheism if we said they were two separate Gods. They are the same God, two persons By saying "they" you are saying it whether you admit to it or not!

Hmmm...then Stephen saw a metaphore? Also, "sit" and "stand" are locative - pronouns in the English language. So Stephen saw a Spirit being (God) and Jesus? Wouldn't this be polytheism or subordinationism?

The term at the right hand of God points to his exalted position he now is active on. There is numerous things that need to be considered to understand this phrase. The phrase right hand is a metaphor, God exercises his authority by his right hand.