David from New Bern

Hey Butero...So you think while you are mowing the grass too...Written some great sermons on a 2 acre lot myself...The only problem with that is you have make sure you don't inhale too deeply if the exhaust is bad ! Seriously, I was with you the first couple of paragraphs and then you lost me. And you deserve an explanation for my jab...Unity doesn't scare me but compromise to achieve it does. I can't find "compromise" anywhere in the Bible at this late hour. There are matters of preference and then there are matters of error. There is style and then there are issues of substance. I say it in love and with respect, I think you confuse the dynamics of that a lot. We are all a product of our early endoctrination and some times we find there are lot of our beliefs are the traditions of men.

It would be an improvement and more modest I might add than many of today's fashions. I don't know, have you seen the size of fig leaves these days...

I thought is was funny and relevant. I resist keeping things to much on my computer but I kept this one. Thanks for sharing it with us...

We are told to be salt and light and many interpret salt to be activism. And I agree but with an explanation. If in the message of the movement we can offer Christ to those who oppose our ideaology. So many get so involved in defending a posistion or defeating someone in debate they forget to love an enemy and hopefully win an enemy. I have a hard time seeing Jesus protesting, but I can see Him discussing offering truth with clarity in a public format.

Red flags go up when you mention the term "ecumenical". Yet, we admit that God never approved the propagation of the multiplicity of denominationalism that are man made creations to account for his many preferences in faith and practice. That there is safety in hiding behind a denominational tag which keeps you free from personal scrutiny. But we remain scared of a melting pot under the banner of "ecumenicalism". Is there anything wrong with "ecumenicalism?" Isn't the goal of the Body of Christ unity? Or should we work inside of our denominations to bring them to doctrinal purity and practice and give up on the pipe dream of unity?

If we are honest, we all feel we are not doing enough with our lives for the cause of Christ. What is it that is hindering us?

We have a tendency to discuss faith in the 3rd person on this forum, have you noticed? We generally discuss topics that we can keep at a safe distance from revealing too much of the personal side of our relationship with Jesus to those we engage in conversation. To an observer they probably would see Christianity as very issue driven philosophical debate. So, join me in speaking of your faith in the first person and address the question, What does God expect from me?... I believe that God wants me to learn to love what He loves and hate what He hates. To learn to hold myself more accountable than I hold others, to be more critical of my life and less critical of the lives of others. I believe He wants me to see my life a little less from a standpoint of rules or ethics, and more from area of self denial that I might learn intimate, continual fellowship with Him. I believe He wants me to be a little less attached to this world as each day passes. He is teaching me to want for my life an in tuned ear to the whisper of the Spirit so that I will be less impulsive and reactive, but rather disciplined and responsive. He wants me to graduate past some the issues that I have failed to deal with as the Scripture has already convicted me, and destroy the excuses that have quenched the Spirit for so long. He wants me to be more transparent and humble that He might be able to offer me more of His grace that He has promised. There are certainly other things flowing through my consciousness as I write. But also know the comments shared by others will also drive us deeper. Please feel free to share those things which you feel God is expecting from you as you are maturing in your faith?

I believe you are right on it...This is my personal take on the Scriptures on this one...His sin opened the door and Satan took over and overrode logic...Welcome back hope you had a good trip...

What would you say if I suggested the main difference between male and female clothing practically for Hebrews was the plainness of the robe and the adornment of the hair? Pants came along much later.

I enjoy your candor...the funeral was just an illustration...You would probably fit in well with my congregation...we are just exploring the motivations of our actions and looking to be true to principles...

Nebula, thanks for your good spirit...This is probably more of a cultural question than what we realize...I have two teenage sons 15 and 18 and it is hard to find dress clothes for them...I have a 21 year old daughter who says she has a hard time finding dresses that are both dressy but modest enough for church... When we debate we have a tendency to to speak and think in extremes. It has been years since I have seen attire be a major issue in church. I remember as a child the first woman to wear slacks to Sunday morning worship...ooooh Now, most ladies are wearing slacks in church and no one cares. Now shorts are becoming more frequently seen. The isolated incident spoken of in my church in the OP is the only true incident of someone being disturbed by someone elses attire. The musician/speaker was 22 and the concerned person was 75 and from an independent Baptist background. I visit and have contact with a lot of churches and pastor of various denominations here in the Bible belt and there doesn't seem to be a class war being fought out over the issue of suits and dresses. 12 years ago as a seminary student in the Raleigh/Wake Forrest area in the mid-90s, a fellow student and I would visit a different area church on Wednesday night and see how we were received. We intentionally dressed down like we were going to Barbeque rather than church and to see how we were received. On one particular night, my friend who is rather large physically wore shorts to a large independent church and I wore a Promise Keepers shirt. There were 200 people there on a Wednesday night very well dressed. We sat on the second pew and no one said a word to us. We had agreed ahead of time to make eye contact but say nothing unless spoken to. We filled a visitors card, but no one ever called. What does this prove? By the way we probably visited 100 churches over 3 years and this was the only one that gave us the cold shoulder under similar circumstances. So is this a major problem? In this particular test situation 1 out of 100.

I don't know...starting with that admission..first...But according to what you understand about his motivation probably would determine how you felt about this tag of affection. If he was trying to advance his idea of Jesus' military coup d'etat, it was genuine affection on some level. If he was angry or jealous it was sarcasm. Or it could have been a cowardly way to touch Jesus to point Him out without being hit or wounded in the affray.

Err . . . guilty. Have you ever worked for one of the news networks? Not the intent of the post, read it in context...not a statement of judgment...but it is a political year...I guess I need to hire a manager to proof my releases

In this thread we seem to be getting hung up on dressing well is a sense of worldly pride or showiness. What about dressing with reverence and respect for the holiness of what we are participating in. Allow me to use an eartlhy example to represent a spiritual truth. My favorite uncle Johnny dies. I am a blue collar type person I don't even own a suit or tie. When I get the news, I'm am asked to honor him by being a palbearer (carry the casket). I go out and purchase a suit, or at least a tie, dress shirt, and a pair of dress pants. Why because I don't want to stick out as the only palbearer without a suit...NO. Because I want to honor my uncle Johnny. If it was personal pride, I would say you wasted your money. If it was a sense of this occassion is worth the investment and sacrifice, there is a different experience at the funeral. At the funeral your wife and kids whisper, "Honey (dad) you look great I wish you would do that more. Your uncle would be proud of you"

In counseling, as part of your observation you notice the care some one takes with his/her personal appearance. One of the first signs of depression or instability is giving little or no attention one's personal appearance. Often referred to as "letting one's self go" One of the first signs of an improvement in someone's improved outlook is a greater attention to how they are perceived in their personal appearance. One of the ways we show rebellion is refusing to held to any standard and that often begins with our appearance. Every generation attempts to rebell from the previous generation's standard. So wouldn't it seem reasonable to believe that if we are in the business of changing lives that it will lend itself to changed appearance... Then they came to Jesus, and saw the one who had been demon-possessed and had the legion, sitting and clothed and in his right mind. And they were afraid.Mark 5:15 NKJV I have never asked anyone to change their dress or hairstyle or piercings, but I can't help but notice that when God gets a hold of people they voluntarily begin changing their physical appearance. My youth director was a new convert 5 years ago. He had two ear rings. I never made an issue of it, but months after his conversion they disapeared. Probably 2 years after their removal, I asked him about why he stopped wearing them. He said, "they were a statement of individuality/rebellion that I didn't need to make anymore."

Zola was one of the great communicators. He was inique. He filled an education gap for us gentiles looking into the Scripture. I will miss him and will begin soaking up as much of his materials as I can while they are still readily available. we need to pray that God will raise someone else in his place.

The biblical idea of marriage is stated here... and said,

There are some good points and someone needs to tie up the disconnected points, because while we share opinions this is not a relative issue, there is a right answer. I would again like to insert a subpoint that will hopefully give us an opportunity at a unified answer. Yes, worship is about God and not us. Yes, many have been turned away from the church, by the ability of richer people to dress to a higher standard. Yes, a relaxed dress standard lends itself to easier outreach. Yes, we all kinda expect leadership to dress the part. And here is my insertion: The church's divine assignment is to equip saints for the work of the church. It is OJT. Every company I ever worked for addressed personal appearance somewhere in their employee handbooks and the phrase "professional, clean appearance" was always in the text somewhere. There is something about our attire rthat eminds us of our responsibilities. Do you agree? I can't help but to notice the thread is speaking a lot to personal rights, but few seem to see their attire as a real corporate issue concerning responsibility to each other. In fact, we seem to be repelled by the idea of any loose standards other than modesty standards. I would like to hear some conversation addressing the subject from a maturing aspect. I think biblically we all agree a seeker or babe in Christ should come as they are, but at some point should they of their own volition or through mentoring raise the bar? Because now they are taking a rsponsibility in the church. Observation, in the work environment dress standards at least in the leadership is part of the environment of personal and corporate discipline.

I am enjoying following the conversation, but I would like to insert a strange point that seems to counter what I really believe. But, weird people think weird. Many people suggest a lax standard on clothing makes the church more accessible. And it does to young people, but what about traditional minded people in and out of the church. If the pastor doesn't wear a tie it bothers them. If someone stands in the pulpit and they look like they are headed to the beach...it bothers them. And in Christian maturity you will realize your freedom and your responsibility to a weaker minded Christian will not always result in the same action. But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak.1 Corinthians 8:9 NKJV I grew up during a period of time when men's hair lengths were extremely long. Now, as a pastor I'm more conservative for the sake of the weak. If my personal freedom were enjoyed I would look like a biker, but my effectiveness as a leader would be compromised. But, you say you are a pastor that's different. We are are called to be ministers. Now I would be wrong to enforce this on the weak, But it is an issue for the person taking responsibility in the body. And we are all being equipped to do just that. Now as the older generation passes on to glory it will be less of an issue and will probably eventually be replaced with a new generational issue. Now consider, that I pastor a church that is very blue collar and most have made a profession of faith within the last 8 years that I have been there. The older generation in my situation accepted a more relaxed standard and it was not an issue. But one brother thought flip-flops from a speaker and musician was offensive. His taking the shoes off was his freedom, but was his message heard? By the way it didn't bother me, but was it worth the freedom of expression. We have to stop being selfish consumers and become servants and leaders.

But do you use a shotgun or a rifle....................... ?

6 years ago, I put on the church sign "Come as you are, we don't care if you have a dress or not". I thought it might be asking for trouble, but I did it. There is a mobile home park across the street from the church. And one guy and his live-in girlfriend decided to test it. They were dressed down, if you know what I mean. He had curly bushy curly hair that he teased out, wife beater t-shirt (sorry for the colloquialism), and two pepsi bottles. One bottle for refreshment and one for a spittoon. To make a long story short, he and his wife are still in the church, she sings in the church and he teaches and ministers in the church. He tells this story to all the newcomers testing our level of acceptance in the church.

Someone I just met I would use myself as the example of a sinner. in order to identify with them eye to eye Whereas, I might put someone I am closer to in the hot seat, particularly if they offer excuses that are just avoidances to having a meaningful conversation about the Lord. Or if there is a person in tough circumstances, I might ask them to read their situation as God calling them during this teachable moment in their life. To the level of intimacy I believe is to the level we are called to share the gospel. However, I believe someone can invite you to instant intimacy because God has directed them to you. I have been to the hospital emergency room and someone invite me to minister to them. They give me the instant trust to get past the barriers normally put in place. Someone once said, "They don't care what you know, until they know you care." There is no way to make the gospel inoffensive. So I'm looking for doors that are open and doors I have earned the right to knock on and be blunt. I have said a whole lot, but have I communicated anything insightful or am I wrong?

Our culture has made huge changes in what is acceptable business attire and what people wear even to formal gatherings. Church has also followed suit with a more generally relaxed dress code. There was an adjustment period abut 20 years ago in most churches that reflected the difference between Sunday morning (formal), Sunday night (more relaxed), and Wednesday night (super casual). Now you can't find any unspoken rules. Some applaud this as a new openness in church, and others see it as a lack of reverence for the house of God. Some see it as a spiritual issue. Is this only a generational problem? Is it immaturity to embrace or not embrace this change in our culture? This question is prompted from a real life scenario recently. I invited a former member of our church to return to our church to share his musical talent. He is now a youth minister in a neighboring town. When he came he was dressed in jeans and a dress shirt. Dressed perhaps like 30-40% of the congregation gathered on a Sunday morning in our church. However he was wearing flip flops for shoes, and when it came time to perform he did so barefooted. An older member of my church said something about this a week latter in a private meeting. I noticed the flip flops but hadn't noticed the barefeet. I had no comment, because it caught me off guard. The brother in question is youthful and talented which lends itself sometimes to push the buttons of traditionalism. My first thought but unexpressed was that he was demonstrating that he was on holy ground in his worship. My concerned member thought it was lack of respect fr the pulpit and for the pastor. I know as the pastor I'm one of maybe 2 or three who wear a tie Sunday. What is discernment on this matter for our generation?

As a rule of thumb I allow my intimacy with the person to determine how far I can take the confrontation with the gospel. Someone I just met at the library or the grocery store will not get a scapel of direct application the way someone I have known well as a relative, close friend, or someone undergoing a trial as we speak. What do you think?