David from New Bern

David had more than one experience. He wrote during periods of trial, as well as in victory, and also more restful, 'normal' periods. One might suppose that he normally walked with God, thinking His thoughts, and only occasionally strayed. You are right about multiple experiences...I intended of speaking in plurality but I didn't clearly communicate I was referencing Psalm 140, what the background on this one is unknown. But the imprecation is the strongest here in this context. Do you really believe that David kinda floated above these situations and only occassionally strayed. Is that belief of preference or is it based on something you have read in Scripture. Or, was he like a lot of creative types with relationship difficulties always in trouble somewhere?

Then do you believe these psalms represent reflective writings after David's experience, or do you believe this is indicative of a mature David looking at his life's situation only through the eyes of the Lord and writing under full inspiration only the heart of God on the matter at hand?

Saul had to fall on his own sword, we may suppose because he was the Lord's anointed. David correctly would not have raised a hand against him, for that reason. The Amalekite who claimed to have done so was executed without demur. David not only held the Lord's appointee in the highest respect for the Lord's sake, he quite evidently held no personal animosity towards Saul, which attitude is a wonderful model for us. David was no doubt overcome with sloppiness over Absalom, as Joab had to tell him to get a grip on himself after his son's well-deserved and necessary death. Absalom's attitude to the Lord's anointed (and his own father) was not so different from that of the Amalekite, and probably rather worse, and David's foolish double-think in this regard is much less than admirable. I think that one must distinguish sharply between Scriptural psalms, which are always divinely inspired, and the life of David, which, quite often, was not. Don't let me put words in your mouth...so, if I do correct me. You believe, that the imprecatory psalms express the heart of God and David's willingness to write them under inspiration. But, they may not necessarily reflect where he personally was at spiritually. In other words, not progressive revelation...just revelation.

Ernie...Sounds logical to me...Will it be the descendents that drift away from righteousness? Is the benefit to the Kingdom the proof of the depravity of man even in the absence of demonic influence. Then the release of Satan as a form of judgment and separation at the hands of the spiteful force of darkness. Satan unwittingly, will become the purifying agent by the consequences of following a condemned angel. Are you in agreement

I am thinking out loud without the benefit of research or alertness at this hour, but I don't recall any of these imprecatory statements or psalms targetted at his children or Saul. And weren't they the enemy or least the cause of much of the persecution in David's life. Yet, he grieved the passing of Saul, and he spoke no evil directly to his children who betrayed him.

Did anyone find you had more control of your time?

Confession means "to agree with"...we might argue successfully that repentance is agreeing with God's verdict... And of course prayer is the pursuit for the mind of God...So therefore it makes sense to conclude the prayer with "Amen" or so be it. It is the acceptance of whatever is discovered or revealed to you in prayer. IMO many abruptly conclude a prayer with "Amen" before the preceeding is accomplished....Can I get a "Amen"!

I am not looking for a theological treatise. I am needing to hear of some firsthand experiences with fasting from food for more than an afternoon. I know it to be a Biblical practice but rarely practiced among most evangelicals. This would be a real encouragement to me to hear someone who have experienced spiritual dividends to give some details.

and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.Revelation 20:3 NKJV Not that I have to know in order to accept that it is going to happen just as He said it will, or that just because I don't know the reason that there is not a just purpose. But, it is a curiosity. What purpose will releasing Satan for another shot at mankind serve? What coud possibly be the benefit to the Kingdom of God?

To show those who hate God what lies in store for them in the next life- and possibly starting in this. To show that God still defends his saints, as he did David to his dying day. To show that defence of God's name is of paramount importance, though today in a very different way, by keeping disrepute from the church due to false teaching and evil practices. All of very great importance indeed, particularly the last. The Expositor's Commentary in its comments about Psalm 140 says the writing begins with the request "Rescue me" and concludes in verses 12-13 with a confident "I know" and "Surely". Between verses 1 and 13 David had something satisfied in his Spirit. What do you think it is? By the way I'm in preparation for a Sunday morning sermon on Psalm 140. You are helping me with my sermon preparation. Maybe I owe you an honorarium .

Pointer If these psalms are from a prior dispensation and as you say, different commands apply. What are the value of these imprecatory prayers to us in this age?

What is Imprecatory Prayer? When you request God take His vengeance on doers of evil? The prayer may range from "Stop them Lord" to "Kill them Lord" or "Send them to the fiery pit". The word is synomous with curse or damn.

What is the motivation check? What is the litmus test of purity in such a case? In the Scriptures we are given the advantage of being led through the narrative with insight to David's spiritual walk and that of his enemies. But, we also realize that much of David's adversity was self-inflicted or the consequences of his own bad decisions or familial leadership. How would I know that an imprecatory prayer is in line in a particular scenario, or if I'm just trying to get God's endorsement in conflict? The criterion was and remains love; the dispensation has changed, so the detail changes. But if in doubt, trial and error is fine. God will answer in the perfect way, no matter what we do. Are we simply given the benefit of reading behind David who is working through anger by pouring out his emotions in transparent prayer and asking God to sort through his feelings? Or are his prayers the result of that process already concluded? Is he teaching us how to have an open honest prayer life or are we given a prescription for more powerful prayers by his bold request for God to take action? David's requests are not bold at all; they are precisely what God intended him to ask, with exactly the same anger that God feels. If the saint does not also feel them, he is seriously backslidden, if he is a saint at all. One cannot be lukewarm about sin, in oneself or in others, but particularly when it is directed against the cause of righteousness, as we see in the Psalms. God intends the same sort of desire from the saints today, but in a very different context. God was jealous for the name of Israel, as it represented His own name. That meant that killing His enemies was a very, very good thing to do, and indeed to spare such persecutors as Amalekites, the dregs of humanity, was highly culpable. That is what David's predecessor discovered to his great cost. Today, killing God's enemies is very, very bad, and the Christian does not even contemplate such action. When saints today are persecuted, and anyone who is not persecuted is no saint, they pray for their persecutors. The right way to think about them is to imagine them as future brothers or sisters in Christ. Saul the venomous Pharisee was transformed into Paul the loving disciple and dear brother, and there is hope for most people. So imprecation is not really on the agenda, although one may ask God to intervene in cases of injustice, and he may indeed kill in order to glorify His name, even today. But that is strictly His business. The business of the saint, who is not all-knowing, is to love, to provide the soft answer to turn away wrath, to pour burning coals on the heads of enemies. The parallel with defence of the witness of Israel is found in defence of the church, which must exercise great care as to who is to be a member if it is to be a legitimate church. That does not mean that false teachers are executed, though! 'Get rid of the evil person' means 'Have nothing to do with' such persons. Dissociate also from all who accept false teachers and other obvious sinners who will harm the witness of the church. But do them no harm whatever. So if one is to make a parallel prayer to David's, one must pray for the leadership of one's local church, that it will have not only discernment to detect false teachers and evil persons, but also to have the courage to expel them. That is not bold, either. It is absolutely basic. Pointer...enjoying reading your post...so don't merely take my questions as anything other than exploring your thinking...Scripture indicates David had some character flaws, but he owned them in a life of repentance which earned him the honor of being referred to "as a man after God's own heart". Scripture gives us an honest and revealing look at David's messed up life. He didn't always practice obedience, patience, and trust in his Lord. But, to his credit his failings grieved him greatly..."create in me a clean heart O God, renew a right spirit within me." So, I'm saying all this to say, "who is David to be giving God advice or directives?" Is he working through what God's will is and becomes of one mind with God after a season of prayer and devotion? or Is pouring out his anger (righteous indignation or self-centered anger?) in a prayer of cleansing asking God to sort through his emotions and examine his heart. David, did this often in his writings, but is he doing that in these imprecatory psalms? According to how we answer these questions determines how imprecatory prayers fit into our closet time.

What is the motivation check? What is the litmus test of purity in such a case? In the Scriptures we are given the advantage of being led through the narrative with insight to David's spiritual walk and that of his enemies. But, we also realize that much of David's adversity was self-inflicted or the consequences of his own bad decisions or familial leadership. How would I know that an imprecatory prayer is in line in a particular scenario, or if I'm just trying to get God's endorsement in conflict? The criterion was and remains love; the dispensation has changed, so the detail changes. But if in doubt, trial and error is fine. God will answer in the perfect way, no matter what we do. Are we simply given the benefit of reading behind David who is working through anger by pouring out his emotions in transparent prayer and asking God to sort through his feelings? Or are his prayers the result of that process already concluded? Is he teaching us how to have an open honest prayer life or are we given a prescription for more powerful prayers by his bold request for God to take action?

Andrew...get a copy of Experiencing God by Henry Blackerby...I read probably 4-6 books a month (I say that show to my exposure to Christian material) and this is the best practical read for any Christian pursuing vital ministry and plan to discern quickly God's will. I think after reading an applying this book to you life and ministry yu will attempt the God-sized assignments and reap the peace of fulfillment. The book will keep you in the Bible to learn God's revealed method for discernment and Biblical thinking.

What is the motivation check? What is the litmus test of purity in such a case? In the Scriptures we are given the advantage of being led through the narrative with insight to David's spiritual walk and that of his enemies. But, we also realize that much of David's adversity was self-inflicted or the consequences of his own bad decisions or familial leadership. How would I know that an imprecatory prayer is in line in a particular scenario, or if I'm just trying to get God's endorsement in conflict?

Imprecatory is a rarely used word in contemporary language but is is a term used to describe the act of cursing or damning someone who is your adversary or nemise. David wrote 10 inspired psalms that are termed imprecatory. He ask God to pour out His wrath on his enemies and tormentors. His language is not laced with mercy but anger. Thse psalms are 5,11,17,35,55,59,69,109,137,and 140. Are these psalm an honest description of David's attitude and spiritual state and meant to help us identify with David's mind and struggle to bring us to a closer appreciation for the transparency of this "man after God's own heart"? Or are they prescriptive and in fact there to teach us how to pray with authority and power?

The clearest and most simpliest case of conversion was the thief on the cross. The reason I say this, there was no aisle to walk, no church to join, no baptism service to participate in, no sinners' prayer that had been written in the back of a tract, and no altar call extended. So what happened to the repentant thief that did not happen to the unrepentant thief? The repentant thief suddenly had an accurate assessment of who he was and an accurate view of who Jesus was. At the moment of this revelation he understood that he did not deserve paradise so he knew he needed mercy. Apparently having been exposed to the teachings of John the baptist or Jesus Himself he used the language of "remember me, when you come into your Kingdom." In the modern age we have put so much value in our evangelistic props and cliche's and directed decisional theology we have muddied the waters with attachments and removed the supernatural element of revelation. The thief had a revelation much like Peter had when Jesus asked him, "who do you say I am?"........."Peter, flesh and blood have not revealed that to you!"

though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. Hebrews 5:8 NKJV Relationships are really defined by experience, so it makes sense that my current experiences are defining or deepening my relationship with the Lord. Often times periods of suffering or persecution will creation periods of unbroken communion with God. It seems what does break intimacy is a perceived desire for independence. Trouble free times usually create this illusion of well being that lead to a break in the spiritual disciplines of faith. When things are going well our prayers are shallow, our Bible studies begin to focus on issues far removed from personal conviction, and our praise becomes one dimensional. So the depth of my walk often flows with what my life's journey is delivering to me. The real issue for the Christian is not to lose the ground gained during times of suffering, because like Christ we learn intimacy by the things we suffer. That is why one of the most powerful words of in the Bible is "remember".

David, if that is your argument, it is not a very good one. Let's take a look at the verses that come first as well as the ones in question. Matt 24:36-42 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the Angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the Flood, they were eating, and drinking, and marrying, and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the Ark, 39 And knew not until the Flood came, and took them all away: so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field, the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill: the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. Jesus didn't break sequence as you are saying. He had begun in verse 32 with the parable of the fig tree. This came after he completed speaking on the second coming and events that led up to it. This is a new warning to those living in the days preceding the rapture. There are too many things that don't fit concerning the second coming as I said in a previous post. Look at how things are described. It says they were like in the days of Noe, people were eating, drinking and giving in marriage and then the flood came and carried them away. In other words, people were going on with their lives as normal. Before the second coming, the people will have come through a time of great tribulation, worse than anything the world has ever known. Any Christians that remain that have refused the mark of the beast will not be taken by surprise about the Lord's return. On the other hand, the rapture will take many by surprise. The rapture of the church has to be discovered outside of the Olivet Discourse. Jesus discusses a tribulation where the Jews become targets of hate and mistreatment. He then plainly denotes a mid-point event labeled by Daniel as the Abomination of Desolation in which the Temple becomes a symbol of mockery and power inhabited by the Anti-christ. The 144.000 go into hiding and God protects them while the false rulers gloat in their apparent anihilation of the Israel. And Jesus says just like the days of Noah, where it looked like evil had completely triumphed and being righteous looked completely foolish to the world. Society will completely settle into a state of abnormal that it now will call normal. Then the coming of the Lord, referred throughout numerous OT passages as the "Day of the Lord" will occur preceded immediately by cosmic signs seen by all the world...involving the sun, moon, water, earthquakes and the appearing of the Lord at the Mount of Olives. His purpose to apprehend Satan, his angels, and the evil ones and then an angel will canvas the area to pull together the righteous remnant and unite them with the angels and the dead in Christ that He brings with Him. The more I study this the more convinced and the more cohesive it becomes instead of a bunch of scattered comments in a puzzle like presentation as so many see it.

So Samuel said:

I don't think it has ended we are just waiting for Jack Van Impe to post and Hal Lindsay

Try this website and perhaps a person can help you since you are temporarily disconnected from a church. Perhaps your past church connection could be a source of help. Any long distance charges or travel is not to great a cost to fool proof the marriage from alienation. Here is the website: www.estherministries.com

At the risk of overstatement...I believe in the pre-tribulation rapture of the church...The 144,000 are the Jewish remnant but they will also do a supernatural job of evangelizing and will have gentile converts...what I am suggesting is at the 2nd Coming of the reigning King Jesus this verse refers to the removal of Satan, demons, and the evil followers who will all be pretty debased at this point. Their removal will leave the saints here and the dead and Christ and the raptured church who return with Christ at His 2nd Advent in one place for the 1,000 year reign. I hope I have been specific enough that everyone understands what I am suggesting these verses mean. As an argument for this, I am saying that if these two verses refer to a prior rapture and those removed were saints, Jesus broke his comments about the tribulation and inserted these sentences of commentary totally out of sequence with what He was explaining.

On a more serious note beyond my earlier dry humor, new visitors need to know someone by name the name tag helps, but someone consciously saying their first name often to new people will accomplish the same thing.