nanasimmons

Well...from what I understand from scripture, and from what Jesus proved Himself to be (in all, through all, sustaining all... God), It seems clear to me that the rest we're supposed to have isn't in a "Day", but in Him. my dear brother, so where do the ten commandments stand?. if you are saying that it is all done away with ("old testament") and pick and choose what is relavate and what is not then CHRIST really went to the cross for nothing. HE came to fullfill "what the prophets of old prophisied", not to do away with any thing but the burnt offerrings e.c.t.. For if it is all done away with then why are we all still here then? and what is the government, that GOD is going to bring back on HIS return? (REVERLATIONS). MAY GODSPEED The Ten Commandments are right where they have always been, convicting NOT saving lost sinners, and they either bring people to faith in Christ/High Priest/Mediator/Passover Lamb ect.. Alone, that He has paid their debt( He paid it ALL), or it will judge them in the last day, when the Christless people will stand before the Great White Throne and those who are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

Your 72 hr. theory doesn't hold true according to many passages in the Bible. The first day is always counted as day one, if not I know people who have circumcised their babies on the seventh day, instead of the eighth like they thought, they count the first day as one. If the baby was born on Tues. he is circumsiced the following Tues. acording to OT law... If you would take the time to read through this link, maybe you could get some understanding... You will have to do a search and type in "friday crucifixion" on this site.. http://www.bible.ca/d-3-days-nights.htm

If you are trying to sow discord among the brethren..., you are doing a good job!! Keep up the good work You go girl, keep on judging another man servant... You pridefully boast of infallible proof according to scripture then let's see it.. From what I have been taught, the stone was moved in the third watch,according to Roman history, So if it is possible I will find infallible proof of that, if I can reach the preacher that preached it.... Meanwhile, I'll be waiting for your proof..FROM SCRIPTURE !! Nana

I had gotten a couple books on Judaism, including the 2006 Encyclopedia on Judaism out of the library earlier the summer, and based on their belief on this topic,I did not have much desire to know much more....Mind you these are non-believers,but according to the answer about abortion, it said the some Jewish leaders didn't consider the unborn baby as a separate life until it born naturally(takes a breath), they consider it to be part of the woman body/her thigh and as so it was her body to do with whatever she saw fit...... I do not know if it adressed the disabled,but her statement is quite shocking considering what her anscestors went through under the hand of man/beast with the same exact mind set...??? It sounds all to familar, but something more out of the secular world, than from praiser's of Yah....

This is my thought also. Church to me is a place of fellowship, to learn and to worship the Lord and it doesn't make us less christian or what not if we chose to stay home and study the Bible. One of my gal pals is stating that God wants us in church and not simply doing the fellowshiping outside of church. We are told not to forsake the assembly of ourselves together. Hebrews 10:25 I have been carefully studying Hebrews and that passage and it is more likely speaking of apostasy, it is not "cease not to attend the assembly", but " Forsake not". If a professing christian forsook the christian churches and became a mohammedan he would disobey this verse. It would appear that a total and final abandonment of the public profession of christianity is what here is warned against. Born again believers are the Church.

Exo.12:43-49 And the Lord said unto Moses and Aaron,"This is the ordinance of the passover:There shall no stranger eat thereof; But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou has circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof; A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof. In one house shall it be eaten; thou shall not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof. All the congregation of Israel shall keep it. And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee,and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land; for NO uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you. This shows how the disciples (and the Holy Spirit) felt about offending the/their Jewish brothers. These 4 were not commands but requests to christian gentiles who had already been taught Paul's gospel of faith alone (Gal.3:1-18), for the past 12 years Gal.2... The line of reasoning here is identical to what Paul suggests to the Roman and Corinthian believers later on(Rom.14;1 Cor. 8-10)some of these matters deal with personal conscience, not moral legislation,Which would eliminate the idea of having to buy meat in a jewish butcher shop exclusively 1 Cor.10:23-33 If you look in this same chapter in verse 6, you will also discover that Paul still kept the Feasts of the Lord for he did not sail away on his journey until AFTER the Days of Unleavened Bread.

There were non-jewish people in both OT and NT that became Jews,which required them to become circumcised.(Esther 8:17) Jesus said in John 4:22 "for salvation is of the Jews". Acts is a book of history written between 61-63 A.D. and the time span is, of about 29 years,from Christ's accension(about 33 A.D.) through the imprisionment of Paul in Rome,(about 62 A.D.) In Acts 15(about 22,23 years after pentecost), this meeting that takes place is about thirteen years after Peter's vision,and after the gentiles were first baptized by the Holy Spirit(not even with water yet), which back in Acts ch.10;11:1-18 they had all agreed that God excepted the uncircumcised/gentiles as they were(what God has cleansed,you must not call common)Acts 10:15 the Holy Spirit fell on the gentiles while uncircumcised(and without water baptism), JUST as He had fallen on them at the beginning. The jewish BELIEVERS were still having trouble excepting uncircumcised gentiles, even all these years later. Paul,who had been preaching amoung the gentiles for about 12 years,and Barnabas,(Titus was with them),were not buying into circumcision and keeping the Law for their gentile converts.. Finally, after much dispute,(Acts 15:6; Galatians 2:5), Peter rises up recounts what happened 13 years earlier,pointing out that God made no distinction between themselves/circumcised Jews and the uncircumcised gentile believers,purifying their hearts by FAITH.V.10 " Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yolk/bondage on the neck of the disciples,which neither our fathers nor we are able to bear?"V.11 "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they."(by faith) Acts 15 and Galatians 2:1-10 are the same account, Titus,(already a disciple),went with Paul v.3 Yet not even Titus who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised.v.4 FALSE BRETHREN spied out thier LIBERITY,which we have in Christ,that they might bring them into BONDAGE. v.5 to whom they did NOT yeild submission to,not even for one hour, that the TRUTH of the gospel may continue.... Now, as for what Acts 15:21 was in TRUTH saying, James was saying, Acts 15:14-18"Simon(Peter) has declared how God at the first (13 years earlier) visited the gentiles to take out of them a people for His Name.v.15 "and with this the words of the prophets agree,Just As It Is Written:V.16 "After This,( After what? Romans 11:25-27, the fulness of the gentiles come in,the whole Body of believers/Church.) After this, Amos 9:11-15 (the restoration of Israel).... V.20 abstain from; 1. pollutions of idols Gen. 35:2(as God first called Abram out from his country,kindred and father's house Gen.12:1, They were pagans, and served other gods Josh. 24:2),and they were leaving their pagan gods, and turning to the true God. 2.sexual immorality (1 Cor.6:13-20 would you join Christ to a harlot? It is a sin against your own body) 3,4. things strangled and from blood (Gen. 9:3-6 the life is in the blood). based on this one scripture v.21, it is contray to believe after the big dispute over Paul's gospel of faith alone, given by Christ Himself, to Paul, that the gentiles would be going to the synagogues every sabbath,just so they might be brought into bondage.... I don't know what would be contriversial about communion being celebrated any or every day that the believers meet together. 1 Cor.11:23-34 Explains what the Lord told Paul, in turn paul delivered it to believers as concerning The Lord's Supper and there is no mention of any certain day,Sabbath or otherwise. So,acts 20:7 or 11 are not relevent. We are the Temple where God now lives,He no longer lives in man made temples..So,I don't know if it really makes any difference what day they collected the money, the important thing was that they gave, to help the poor.The fact that Paul gave instructions to collect on the first day of the week, should not be offensive or frowned upon for any reason,from any one, especially if any day is fine to worship God. In The New Covenant ,We have the Spirit of Truth living in us. Jesus said that went He went to the Father, He would send the Spirit of Truth, the Holy Ghost," And He shall teach you all things." You must be born of the Spirit... But even the people of OT, the Israelites asked Moses to hear from God for them because they did not want to hear for themselves, then they cried for a king like other nations,stoned God's messengers/prophets, over and over God tells His people "if you wil hear and obey my voice" In Acts 7:51 Steven points out the Holy Spirit is always being resisted. Don't listen man made rules/commandments on how to interpret the scriptures for you, as some do..These rules/philosophies come long after (generations) the scriptures were written.

Twist? C'mon...would you please act like an adult? If I have twisted anything you should be able to show it without being ugly. Though it is probably a mistake, I will give you the benefit of doubt and assume you are sincere in wanting to know how I read that...so again, let's look at the context of the entire passage. Not sure how many times I can repeat this without you hearing it; but here it goes again.....please listen well. Yeshua made it clear that the SPIRIT of the law is the ultimate purpose of it....yet the spirit of the law is based on what the letter of the law says! The Apostles (including Paul) understood that the Torah could not be realistically enforced on a gentile who lives outside of Israel and that the spirit of the law was all that really mattered anyway. None of that makes the law void. Let's read what Pauls says in the very next sentences of the passage you quoted Remember: Context, context, context..... 7What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet." 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful. 14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God

NO, its just lazy, and proves that you cannot be trusted to be an honest debate opponent. I have never said such a thing, and neither has yod. It is the lame, baseless assertion you make to avoid actually discussing the issue in an honest way. Nothing I have said ever invalidated one portion of the Bible, and defy to you to prove otherwise. All you are doing is making broad generalizations that you have created in your own mind, because to actually engage us in what we have said would require a little more honest treatment of what we have said, than what you willing provide. You are setting rules for us that you exempt yourself from. You demand that I use no outside sources, but yet you feel free to use any outside source you think supports your views. That is nothing short of hypocritical. Unlike you, I don't need an intellectual crutch to make up for any lack of interpretive skills on my part. Really which translations, since all say different things? You are just ranting right now. This last paragraph is not even intelligent enough to deserve rational response. Why should I only use Scripture? Why should I be subject to limits on my sources, while you are free to engage in debate using any source you deem fit in an attempt to refute me? One set of rules for you, and a different set for me, is that it? Again, it demonstrates the lack of integrity and honesty with which you are approaching this issue. I will use whatever outside source I deem fit, and YOU have nothing to say about it, Bubba. YOU do not make the rules. Brother you have got some serious issues... I don't know if you realize how prideful and haughty you come across.You may feel that you are flaunting how wise you are,..but it comes across quite the opposite my friend.. Some of us, do not want to rationalize away the true meanings of the scriptures or see them in the one dimentional view as you, yourself do. We don't need you or Yod to teach us what the scriptures say, in fact Colo. 2 warns us to against philosophy and vain deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. Actually, for all your claims of supeior intelligents,I'm suprized that you would get trapped in a philosophy that has is roots and gotten it's name from Greek,paganism....Defend it all you want, but I see the demon for what it truly is... If you have every thing.....but have not love...Brother, you have nothing.................

Hermeneutics" from the greek hermeneuo "to interpret or translate (from the messenger of the gods,Hermes), is the theory and practice of interpretation, originally the interpretation of texts,especially religious texts...??????? No,thank you,none of that for me, thanks anyways!! I will take my usual dose of Holy Spirit interpretations over "Hermes" any and every day..

You never replied to this post..I wanted to hear your twist on these scriptures... As for the rest of us; I hope and pray, for their sakes, no one buys into this other gospel that they are preaching,which is not The Gospel that Paul was given by Christ. It seems, for the most part that we have become fools for Christ,including myself. Who, with any sense or True Intelligence can stand to hear the Scriptures be twisted,distorted, and mis-interpreted the way Yod and Shiloh and others like them have been doing?? (This is what I believe in my spirit to be true, I know that not every one will agree, but that is the truth as I see it!!) In Love..of course... Most left Paul in the end in his day, so,are we really surprised, that they continue to do so now?? Not me..Not one bit.. Not to say that this fact doesn't greive me,because it does,very much so...I think this is why we keep trying so hard.. The thing is, while we are hopeing to open their eyes to the truth, they continue to try and keep ours closed from it..

As Carcaptor pointed out Hebrew 10:9 " Lo, I have come to do Thy will......O God, He taketh away the First,that He may establish the Second. The First/Old Covenant.. Hebrews 9:13 "For if the blood of bulls and of goats,and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean,sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: V.18-21 Therefore not even the First covenant was dedicated without blood. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water,scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying,"This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you." Then like wise he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and ALL the vessels of ministry.(this would have included the Ark of The Covenant) The New/Second Covenant.. Hebrews 9:14-17 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God,cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this reason He is the Mediator of the New covenant by means of death,for the redemption of transgressions under the First Covenant,THAT those who are called may recieve the promise of the eternal inheritance. For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is in force after men are dead,since it has no power while the testator still lives. As the link I posted earlier showed in.. Romans 7:1-7 You cannot be married to the First law/old covenant/husband and to the second new covenant/Christ/husband at the same time or you are committing spirital adultry. But if the first husband is dead/dies then you are free to marry another. What law?v.7 the one that says"thou shalt not covet".

Although I do understand why you say this I have to disagree with the notion that anyone was told they couldn't or shouldn't abide the Law. I believe that statement goes a little farther than what is actually being said in the scriptures. There is not a single sentence in the New Covenant scriptures that says obeying God's commandments is ever wrong. The passages you quote are dealing with something else altogether. "Judaizing" is when someone is compelling another person (trying to force or manipulate) to become jewish. This is the difference between legalism and being faithful. As if outward expressions without inner reality mean anything at all to the Lord? The problem being addressed in Galatia is about gentiles being manipulated to become jews through circumcision. It had already been ruled upon by a council of jewish leaders (James, Paul, Peter, etc) that circumcision and keeping the Law of Moses was not a requirement of the gentiles. That is not the same thing as saying that the Law is now void. It's just saying that they can't expect people from outside their nation to keep their nations laws. Paul was influential in that decision in Acts 15 and is repeating that to the community at Galatia. In the same way it was hypocrisy when Peter was hanging out with gentiles treating them as brothers but then shrunk back to the "old way" of treating gentiles when there were a lot of jews around; but it had nothing to do with "the Law is now void so don't do it anymore" I will let God decide what is worthless to God...I believe He still looks upon the heart. As I've said a few times already, it is the spirit of the law that matters. To this point I haven't said it was a sin if people don't observe Sabbath. What has been implied by a couple of people in this thread is that it is a sin if one does observe it. But now I'm curious........what is "the New Testament law" and where do you get that??? 1 John 3:23,24

This is a quote from a web site called "The Gospel Way" http://www.biblestudylessons.com/cgi-bin/g...law_today_2.php "further, there is no proof God bound the Sabbath on men from creation. No passage mentions Noah,Abraham,Jacob, or any patriarch keeping the Sabbath. Ezek.20:10-12 says God gave Israel the Sabbath as a sign between Him and them when He lead them out of Egypt and Deut. 5:15 says it was a memorial of that event(cf Neh.9:13,14;Exo.31:13-17). How could it be a sign between Him and one nation if everyone since creation had the same sign? How could it be a memorial of an event before that event ever occurred?"

There is no "carnal knowledge" or wasted words in the Bible. You seem to be missing the point. I hope it isn't intentional. One can certainly have enough to "get by" with a rudimentary knowledge of these things...but that would be like entering adulthood with a Jr High School diploma and thinking you are a PhD. Thanks for recognizing that it is a jewish history book. So the point I'm trying to make is that jews understand the context of their history better than anyone else. In the same way, you probably know that a battle happened at the Alamo, but as a Texan we studied Texas history and learned more about it because it is more relevant to a Texan. Yet none of that really told the story like going to San Antonio and spending some time at the Alamo. I could see things in a very different way while standing in the courtyard. That didn't negate anything I had learned before but it did give me a greater understanding and appreciation of what happened there and why. In the same way, there is always more to be learned from the Bible or we would only have to read it once. If I were to go to New York's finest colleges to study the Alamo they would still be lacking what I learned from being there in San Antonio. Amen! No arguement there...... I encourage you to consider that "Hebrews" was written by a hebrew to other hebrews and contains many hebraic concepts that are best understood in its hebraic context. In the context of the bible, you can surely understand the bigger picture of what faith is without consulting a hebraic understanding; but many of the details will be lost. And I encourage you to understand what Paul defined as "judaizing" instead of what anti-semetic people (who are/were christians) thought it was. And the Tabernacle is found in the Torah (the Law) first. Without understanding Torah, you can't really get a full picture of what the Tabernacle was...or it's purpose. I actually meant 'carnal', which means earthly, but what I was referring to,was a few of the other posters' examples of why we should know more about extra-biblical Jewish history. My comments were meant to show how those types of history lessons, add nothing meaningful to the interpretation of those three examples of scriptures,not the scriptures(in the Bible) themselves. I don't know any one personally, that doesn't that doesn't recognize the Bible as Jewish...I don't feel like I'm better than anyone else....I am constantly pointing out the Fact that we are all Equal in Christ...no better..no worse... As far as education goes, my highest goals for all 5 of my children is not collage education/nor special degrees. My highest desire for them is that they put God first, Find and marry faithful loving spouses , be faithful to and treat their spouses with love and honor, have lots of children,atleast 3 or 4, work hard at what ever job they have, that they are truthful all the time, that they have integrity, find the right friends, that they don't get caught up in the decietful riches of this world, or the "in" crowd, that they live a quiet/peacful life, enjoy the true riches of this world,that money can't buy, Have faith in God,especially,during the storms of life. And these are the things that would make me blessed and proud. A higher, worldly, education is not top, on my priority list... As, I have been studying Hebrews, I have become more convinced that Paul wrote it, more now than ever, and I am aware he was Jewish, writing to Christian Jews.. There are a few things I have learned about the Tabernacle,but there is just so..... much, who can possibly learn it all? But it is my desire to try.So, I did buy a couple books to help me, last month.1. An Exposition of Hebrews by Arthur W. Pink 2. The Tabernacle Its Priests and Its Services by William Brown Hebrews 8 tells us that the earhtly high priest and tabernacle was a shadow of Heavenly things. I've learned things like, Aaron's rod that budded(almonds,buds,and flowers, in numbers 16,17. Aaron's rod that bloomed was an affirmation that God had choosen him as the priestly tribe, to the other murmuring children of Israel. Afterwards God ordered Moses to place Aaron's rod before the ark"to be kept for a token against the rebels." The lifeless rod being made to bloom was a figure of God's vindication of His rejected Son by raising Him from the dead. Thus it speaks of the resurrection-power of our great High Priest. I'm still studying the lampstand,it represents alot.....Exo. 37:17-29;27:20,21 But their is one thing I can't help noteing is the simularity in the almonds and buds in light of Aaron's rod. Where Aaron's rod, used to show he was the chosen high priest ,was made of a temporial element, wood. While the Lampstand,which represents Christ ever in the presense of the Holiest, among other things,and was made with almond blossom shaped bowls and flowers made of pure gold.Which seems to tell me of Christ's eternal Priesthood, sworn by the oath of God. The beaten gold- Christ was beaten by the hands of sinners. pure olive oil -Holy Spirit. Seven lamps-all believers Seven, also number of perfection. The blue veil,that separated the Holy of Holies,that was torn from top to bottom at the crucificition, represents Heaven, in which Christ entered through into the True Holy of Holies,among many other things i'm sure... I have just started learning these things myself, i'm sure their are many who already know these things..But these are the types of things that I want to put my efforts into learning.. I am curious about something I was studying yesterday. The word ordinances is mentioned a half dozen times in the NT, Does the word/meanings mean the same or change in a Hebrew NT concor.?

I do not understand how those little nuggets of history for the Pool of Siloam, the extra High Priest,or Jonh the Baptist change what the scripture was intended to show/teach us, most people have a cross reference to search the scriptures further if they are led to do so, for example...(Pool of Siloam Isa.55- ). Those nuggets may be nice to know, but it is carnal wisdom with out heavenly substance,and for some people that kind learning is just a distraction from what we are LED to do. I learn Jewish history every day..I open the OT... and What do you know? THERE it is..Jewish history!! But then... I open my NT and... By golly....THERE it is again...Jewish history!! God leads me to search out certain matters, this summer and still, He has placed a desire to learn more about the book of Galatians,Hebrews and the Tabernacle. But not every one is going to be led to do the same thing.. God has a purpose for every one...we are many members but One Body...

Noit is not valid, because you completely misrepresented the nature of Yod's statements and his motives. Also don't use the word "Judaizer" until you learn what it means. When I look up the word 'hermeneutics', I can't help but to invision the Levite priests/priesthood sitting around interpreting the Word of God, according to their historical/cultural context, of the very days in question. And the people listened to the pharisees/interpreters of their day because,natrually, who would know better than the the wisest Jewish scholars/leaders, whom God had given/entrusted His Word to? This was their religion in which they had been raised in/around, and of whom served the temple daily..Their story.. At the time Jesus came, it was the worst time in history,who could find the truth?,it had been so distorted, for most of the Jews to understand any thing in the context that it was intended. So much so, that our Lord wept for Jerusalem... Why would any one want to see history repeat it's self? He gave us His Spirit,His Word,and His word that if we but ask for His wisdom,He will give it to us. Faith and prayer are the foundations of the christian's life and it's some thing that we all must enter in to. And most importantly, through prayer," We may boldly enter the Holiest"by the Blood Of Jesus by a new and living way which He consecrated for us,through the veil,that is, His flesh. Heb.10:19,20 We, ourselves, can take it all the way to the Top.. For the husband is head of the wife,even as Christ is (Head) of the church... As (Head) of the church, He alone is our Authority and our Protector... And we are to be subject to His Authority, love Him, and respect(refrain from interfering with)His Authority.

Yod, Thank you for Isa. 54.....what a blessing, in light of Gal. 4:21-31... We all know that all Israel is not Israel(Rom.9:6,7-13),Not all Abrahams seed are his children(John 8),Not all sheep are Jesus' (John 10:24,26). John 10:16 "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold;them also I must bring,and they will hear My voice;and there will be ONE flock and ONE shephard.. Galatians 3:26-29 For you are all sons of God through faith in Jesus Christ.For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither greek or Jew,there is neither slave or free,there is neither male nor female;for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's,then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs acourding to the promise. Eph. 2:4-22; 3 1 Cor. 6:13-20 For the "two,"He says,"shall become one flesh" v.17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. Eph.5:22-32 V.30-32 For we are members of His body,of His flesh and His bones."for this reason a man shall his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. John 17:20-26 Jesus prays for all believers v.21 that they all may be one, as You, Father are in Me, and I in You;that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me and the glory which You have gave Me I have given them,that they may be one just as We are one;I in them, and You in Me that they may be made perfect in one. V.24Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am that they may behold My glory which You have given Me. Heb. 11:1-3,13-16 Eph.2:6 and raised us up together, and made us to sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus. Heb. 12:18-29 v.22 BUT you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem....

The sin of unbelief...Failing to enter into His rest..... Hebrews chapteres 3 - 4:1-8,-13

So the Glory that is done away withwas speaking of the penalty for sin??

the penalty for breaking the Law is satisfied and.... The Torah was given as a governing document to the people of God within the nation of God, Israel. Israelites outside of Israel were not capable (or necessarily required) to keep the laws and ordinances of Israel in foreign lands. Now, with the advent of Yeshua, the grafting-in of of gentiles from foreign lands, into the faith of Israel, and the destruction of the Temple, it was even less possible to observe huge swaths of the Torah. That doesn't make the Torah "void" (deleted). It means there is a new administration of it. The (spirit of) the Torah is now written on your heart. The "spirit of the law" is based on what the "letter of the law" (Torah) says. We are not (and never were) required to keep the laws of the land of Israel...but the spirit of those laws still give us insight to the Lord's character...and how to be blessed or cursed. First of all, we need to understand that sections of the Law were given as the civil codes for governing a nation of people who had been in Eygpt for hundreds of years and were now forming a nation of their own. God's character is revealed in how He set up a Theocrasy but this was a voluntary acceptance by the tribes of Israel and never an imposed system intended for other nations. Then we have the Levitical laws for sacrifices in the Tabernacle and later in the Temple. These were not binding on anyone but Levites in the service of the Temple. These laws also reveal something of God's eternal character and therefore are not "void" as in "done away with" but as in irrelevant to anyone except a Levite in the Temple. Since there is no longer a Temple, there is no requirement to fulfill these laws. However, the truth of God's character revealed in these ordinances are still relevant. Most of the Torah has nothing to do with sacrifices or the Temple. Those are only mentioned in small sections of the Law. Yes, they do and always have. This is why it was such an affront to them when Yeshua made it a personal address to "His" Father. John 5:17,18 18."therfore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only had broken the sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Him equal with God." this passage seems to indicate that any one calling the Father,"their Father" would could be stoned by Law.Even if they had twisted the Law, they still din't seem to recognize God as Father the way I/you do. Does any one in OT call Him their Father not including scriptures referring to Messiah?? And where?? Isn't it because we have been born-again and recieved the Holy Spirit,that All Jews/gentile believers have recieved the Spirit of adoption? Where by we cry Abba, Father? Aren't we heirs because of our faith and that is the reason why any of us can be sons? Paul was coverted 10 years after Christ's accension went before the counscil in Jerusalem 6-10 years later and all of his epistiles was written before the destruction of the temple. The temple was still standing, they must have repaired the veil that God rent, so are you saying that those temple practices were still valid until the temple was destroyed?? 'Because of the promise',the Jews will inherit the earthly Jerusalem with King/Christ as the seed of David sitting on His throne and the twelve, sitting on thrones ruling the "twelve tribes of Israel" Matt 12:28, during the thousand year reign,(God remains faithful to His promise even if we are unfaithful) .During the Millinium people will still be marrying,having children,dying and some will follow satan (who's very presence would defile every thing he touches,the earth )after he is released for awhile, so this can't be talking about New/Heavenly things. While we believers because of our faith John 1:12,13;3:3, after we have been raptured as heirs of the righteousness which is by faith, according to the promise, with Christ as "The Body of Christ/The Bride of Christ"and recieve the Heavenly Jerusalem Heb.11:10,16 where we become His wife" in heaven" Eph.5:25,27,331,32;2 Cor 11:2 Rev.19:7,9,come back with Him for a thousand years. I know that the temple, that God didn't ask for, but David wanted to build for Him wasn't until later. I thought that all the Law was given to Moses on the mount that be touched/Sinai Exo.24:1-3. But as you have said that the sacrificial and tabernacle practices were given separate from Law given on Sinai ,so how do you interpret "Sinai" in these passages (with Scriptures to support what you say please... Gal 4:21-31

It means I have kids that have trouble staying away from the computer....... I need a little more quite time before I can post the response i've been working on and a maid would be nice as well.... This week is hecktic for me every because my 1st quarterly's due for homeschooling and hunting season starts and my husband has invited guests over for the whole week-end with out giving me much warning... I do have a couple quick questions.. 1. In 2 Cor.3 we agree the "the letter,written and engraved in stones" was speaking of the Law given at Sinai, and i might add that this passage is not refering to extra-biblical practices, costoms,traditions, twisted interpretation of the Law in any way shape or form. What does "was to be done away" and "for if that which is done away with"in these passages "done away" means what to you?? 2. If God did not set the Law aside, scripturely, I can't figure out How Christ can be our High Priest/Meidator as He did not come out of Levi as the Law required and how could He apply His blood on the Heavenly altar instead of the on/in the carnal/earthy Jerusalem one as the Law required, if all He did was replace the sacrificial system as some have said?? 3.Tabernacle/temporary dwelling place is spoken of In Hebrews while the (Temple,was still standing), and the Temple is not mentioned once. Why would that be if the Writer was still teaching the Jews to keep the Law?? 4.Do the Jews in Judaism call God their Father?? If not Why?? By the way, I never said that our Father wasn't merciful in the OT. Some one mis-read what I wrote, he missed the comma. Sinai was not the same picture of "God coming in the cool of the day" or "a father running out to lovingly embrace his son and kiss him on the neck and throw him a big party". The whole scene was not intended to be warm and fuzzy as Hebrews 12 points out.

OK nana...I'm going to keep trying because I believe that your are a sister who desires to seek God.... The "letter" is the written law, yes we agree on that, but this verse is not saying that the Law is now made "null & void". That interpretation would force a contradiction to many other verses of scripture. So how can we make this harmonize with the context of the whole counsel of God? The answer is really easy. Let it say only what it actually says. It says the the Spirit (of the law) is greater than the Letter (of the law). No one here would disagree with that truth. Our disagreement lies in the fact that you think because there is a "spirit of the law" that this means there must no longer be any "letter of the law". This verse doesn't say that. It only says that the Spirit is greater. Can you see that? Will you even try? The "Letter of the Law" allows for a divorce if you find some "uncleaness" in your wife. The Spirit of the Law is that it must be a whole lot more than she served dinner on a dirty dish. The letter of the law says we MUST rest from our labor from Friday evening to Saturday evening. The spirit of that law is fulfilled (made fuller) when we take the seventh day and dedicate it to the Lord combined with some kind of rest from our labors. That is why I wouldn't have any criticism of someone who chooses to honor the Lord any way or any day that might be different from what I do. Heck, I wouldn't judge you if you didn't keep any day at all because that would be legalism(imposing a moral code on others)...but I might warn you about burning out because that is the "spirit" of why the Lord gave us a day of rest. Christians are generally keeping the spirit of the Law by going to church one day out of seven...and that is an admission that the letter of the sabbath "law" is still true and in place. However, there is nothing wrong with obeying the "letter" of the law also by choosing to rest on a Saturday...as long as the spirit of the law is the ultimate motivation. Do you disagree? If so...why? Paul is speaking of the greater glory of life in the Spirit for the jew who knows the law. I'd like to point out that you can find no place in the bible where Paul or anyone else says "you must now ignore the teachings and wisdom of the first 5 Book of the Bible" (The Torah) Again, as I said earlier without acknowledgement from you, the law was never given to save us but to show us the standard of righteousness we would have to attain to be perfect. Yeshua spoke about how it was possible to keep the letter of the law but miss the spirit of it. In doing so, He made the full "letter of the law" even harder by now including the "spirit of the law" as it's ultimate definition. Here is a passage from the great Sermon on the Mount where Yeshua expounds upon the concept. Notice that He states the letter of the law (you have heard it said) and then speak about what the spirit of that law is (But I say...). He first makes it clear that He is NOT doing away with the letter of the law but interpreting it more fully. In other words, the "spirit" of the law is the purpose of every law.....but there can be no "spirit of the law" if there is no "letter of the law" to begin with. 17 Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven. 21 Ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 but I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire. 23 If therefore thou art offering thy gift at the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath aught against thee, 24 leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way, first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. 25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, while thou art with him in the way; lest haply the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 26 Verily I say unto thee, thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou have paid the last farthing. 27 Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 but I say unto you, that every one that looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 29 And if thy right eye causeth thee to stumble, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not thy whole body be cast into hell. 30 And if thy right hand causeth thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not thy whole body go into hell. 31 It was said also, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: 32 but I say unto you, that every one that putteth away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, maketh her an adulteress: and whosoever shall marry her when she is put away committeth adultery. 33 Again, ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 but I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by the heaven, for it is the throne of God; 35 nor by the earth, for it is the footstool of his feet; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, for thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37 But let your speech be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: and whatsoever is more than these is of the evil one. 38 Ye have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 but I say unto you, resist not him that is evil: but whosoever smiteth thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man would go to law with thee, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. 43 Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy: 44 but I say unto you, love your enemies, and pray for them that persecute you; 45 that ye may be sons of your Father who is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sendeth rain on the just and the unjust. 46 For if ye love them that love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the Gentiles the same? 48 Ye therefore shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect Paul refers to the Law as the "ministration of death" here because no one will be able to stand before God on their own works when they are judged by the perfect glory of the Law. The new covenant is "new" and has exceeding glory to the Law because it provides a remedy for breaking that perfection which didn't exist beforehand. I have answered your post as respectfully as possible. There is no reason to feel threatened just because we may disagree on anything/everything. I would appreciate it if your response was absent personal invective. I would like to believe that you are capable of that.

I have addressed the very same issues several months back and all you did back then is respond with the same inflammatory, over-emotional responses. I simply don't see a reason rehash everything we covered before. I remember now why I stopped wasting my time trying to have intelligent, adult conversation with you. The truth is, you do not understand a Torah positive position, and you are too busy tossing around emotional, inflammatory rhetoric to even bother to understand it. Your remarks regarding idolizing the Jews were a direct attack on Yod as if he idolizes the Jews, and you feel is he is angry for you not following suit. The accusation is there, and anyone would take offense at it. You needn't try to play the martry. You don't deserve it. You have not been persecuted, so you can lose your fake persecution complex. You have been confronted by people who see things differently than you, and you pretend that it is "adversity." What a crock. Why do you keep demonizing me?? It has been difficult to have a conversation about the Law and it's proper place in the Christians life, because you keep saying to those of us who rest in this position,that we are not Law possivitive or that we are preaching lawlessness...over and over, No one has been saying that the Law is evil. The Law is good if a man use it lawfully. There are alot of people who have studied and who read their Bibles who believe exactly the same way I do..And we get called stupid babies unable to learn(paraphased) I guess this post is probably going end soon because who can learn anything under these conditions??