germanJoy

Great question, Worm... I certainly was and am convinced that the CC had nothing to do with my conversion because the more I read it, the more I sinned and rebelled against it and most of all against God. The reasons were evident: As taught by Catechism, I was praying and calling to the little "false" gods like Mary, St. Patrick, Black Nazarene, Sto. Ninyo, St. Joseph, St. Martin, St. Peter, St. Paul, and many many more... I was living my life by myself with these "little gods" without the Holy Spirit of God... I did not know and have the right Way, the revelation of Truth, and the source of Life; in short I did not "personally" know and have Jesus Christ, the ONLY true and living God, the ONLY mediator between God and me... What I had then was just "head knowledge of Christ" from the religion of which I was born into... the Holy Bible ("almost" forbidden and greatly discouraged) was, can and should only be read and interpreted by the priests. The Catechism was there to replace the Bible and was made for simple understanding of the Catholic faith and God. On top of this, I was taught and made to believe all the time that I am saved by my works. Since I was rebellious, I was convinced that my destiny was eternal hell. So now you can imagine how I reacted when I heard the TRUTH of the gospel of Christ for the first time. HALLELUJAH! Isn't our God great and highly to be praised? germanJoy While I have never read the CC I have to believe it includes more than just prayers to Mary and the saints. I am sure it includes doctrine about sin and the Law and the need for Christ. I am just as sure RC's do not believe it is a substitute for the Bible. Our Lutheran catechism is very useful for teaching what the Bible says but we do not believe it replaces Scripture. I think its important for churches to openly confess what they believe instead of issuing a vague and brief statement of faith. While I am not a RC its no better having a million little popes with their own interpretation than one. You may have taken away more than you think from your early reading of the CC joy. sw Well, Worm, I was not the only one who believed and practiced the wrong doctrines of Catechism, all or exactly 100% of the Catholics in our country believed so as well. Our fellow male believers have themselves literally hanged on the cross with nailed hands to pay for their sins every "Holy Week Passion". This is authored, taught and strongly supported by the Catholic church. Catechism teaches that we need to do penance to pay for our sins...since faith in and the works of Christ are not enough compared to the hugeness of our iniquities. This is really very sad but this is REALITY. That is just one of the few examples of the deception in the teachings. The Lutheran Cathecism is far different and does not teach such deception. Well, although it has its own interpretation of biblical doctrines based on traditions with its limits and weaknesses yet at least it tries to remain biblical. But not so with CC, sad to say. I only got to know the huge difference between the Bible and the CC when I got to read the Bible myself with the Holy Spirit as my Teacher. And THE BIBLE (the words written) set me FREE! germanJoy

Great question, Worm... I certainly was and am convinced that the CC had nothing to do with my conversion because the more I read it, the more I sinned and rebelled against it and most of all against God. The reasons were evident: As taught by Catechism, I was praying and calling to the little "false" gods like Mary, St. Patrick, Black Nazarene, Sto. Ninyo, St. Joseph, St. Martin, St. Peter, St. Paul, and many many more... I was living my life by myself with these "little gods" without the Holy Spirit of God... I did not know and have the right Way, the revelation of Truth, and the source of Life; in short I did not "personally" know and have Jesus Christ, the ONLY true and living God, the ONLY mediator between God and me... What I had then was just "head knowledge of Christ" from the religion of which I was born into... the Holy Bible ("almost" forbidden and greatly discouraged) was, can and should only be read and interpreted by the priests. The Catechism was there to replace the Bible and was made for simple understanding of the Catholic faith and God. On top of this, I was taught and made to believe all the time that I am saved by my works. Since I was rebellious, I was convinced that my destiny was eternal hell. So now you can imagine how I reacted when I heard the TRUTH of the gospel of Christ for the first time. HALLELUJAH! Isn't our God great and highly to be praised? germanJoy

Sorry joy, but I just don't see much of anything biblically here to respond to. Its just more of the same old unbiblical claim that one should question their salvation if they don't recall some big drama regarding their faith. Its almost as if you're saying that Christ crucified is not enough, God. I demand an experience from you to go with that! Why is someone any less saved who now trusts in Christ but doesn't remember the day from their childhood when that first happened? Further I can show you numerous examples of people who had the big dramatic experience and ran down the aisle during an altar call and now exhibit no evidence of being saved. Also, if immediately after your "experience" you could not wait to return to the vomit of your fornication lifestyle some of us might question the legitimacy of your salvation experience. God's laws are written on our hearts and the truly saved have a renewal of that knowledge of the law so your statement excusing your fornication because you had not studied the Bible is somewhat problematic. But as you say, not wanting to judge you either. Also, your argument about who is more humble has a lot of irony. Someone's boast of superior humility sort of destroys any potential argument they might bring forth dont'cha think? Finally, there are those who have faith and those who don't. That is the only dividing line that matters. There are not separate classes of "spirit filled" believers and vice versa. This of course is the silliness of Campus Crusade propaganda which usually includes such additional silliness like "spiritual breathing" (breath in God and blow out the devil I guess!) techniques. So, how are things on the glorious hot air balloon today? sw I like that Worm, you're getting humorous too! You seem to forget that the one who had the MOST dramatic conversion was Paul the Apostle. And he always testified about that dramatic scene on his way to Damascus. He saw Jesus face to face, he lost his sight for 3 days, was led to Ananias, regained his sight, filled with the Holy Spirit and you know what happened next. Oh, by the way, believers will overcome BY THE WORD OF THEIR TESTIMONIES, remember? Come on, Worm, you and I know very well that when I got born-again, it was my "spirit" that was reborn... my mind or my soul still needed to be renewed by the Word of God day by day, a process that takes time. I did not have an automatic "spiritual leader" who was behind me to guide me what to do. I hope I did for it could have spared me from sinning. However, that was not my case. I started reading the bible after I got born-again. What I was reading before was Catholic Catechism, prayer books to and for the saints, etc. Besides, can you tell me of anyone who got born-again and afterwards became SINLESS, have not sinned anymore? Are you that one? I thought you believe Jesus came for the sinners, not the righteous. Which one are you then? Only the Lord knows and sees the heart of a man... only He can tell who really is humble or not...neither you nor me. Very hot and windy indeed, Worm... not as dry and cold as your glacier!.

I am seeing that "receive and accept" are the keywords to get the whole point of this thread. How can one ever fail to remember or miss the day of his conversion/regeneration??? I think "not remembering the day" is true only to those who received (passive) but not accepted (active) "salvation" like that of the "spam mails". For example, right after I surrendered my life to Jesus Christ after hearing the gospel, I shared with my family at home with great joy and excitement my new-found experience in Christ. The following day, having no biblical knowledge yet, I committed fornication which I was normally doing. To my wonder, my whole body literally started to shake while doing the act. The Holy Spirit of God that regenerated me which I both received and accepted caused me to feel uncomfortable of the sinful act. That was the clear indication for me that truly I got BORN-AGAIN of the Spirit of God. My whole system reacted to sin, I became sensitive to the conviction of the Holy Spirit for the first time although I did not fully comprehend the whole matter yet. Of course, I later repented and God forgave me. Not wanting to judge anyone but I know some Christians who got "born-again" but still continue in their former sins. Is it because they have received but have not accepted "salvation or regeneration"? Perhaps, who knows? Another thing, who is more or lesser humble? One who sees the need to surrender his will to God (God's choice, which is mine too) and recognize God's plan of salvation; cries his heart out, repents, confesses Christ, makes a big scene of his born-again experience testifying outloud how God had saved him and giving God ALL the glory for his salvation OR one who sees no need to surrender his will for IT IS GOD's will that he is saved (God's choice, not mine) and there is no need to make those useless "big scene". What do you think, the former or the latter? Regards to you all! germanJoy

A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough. Galatians 5:9 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!... Matthew 23:25 And Jesus said to them. "Watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees." Matthew 16:6 Beware of the leaven of the hypocrites!

God bless ALL the evangelists calling sinners to repentance and leading them to Jesus Christ. Evangelism is a great and wonderful gift of the Holy Spirit in the body of Christ. My own conversion from death to life, from sin to righteousness, from Satan to Christ was realized through the work of an evangelist (through the Holy Spirit, of course in case someone disagrees). I heard GOD'S WORD in the spirit of truth for the first time in an evangelical crusade even though I religiously went to church every Sunday for almost 20 years. Yet I lived in sin, I was enslaved by and in bondage of sin, I believed my evil works would bring me to hell and my good works could perhaps bring me to heaven. In short, I was uncertain of my salvation. I was made to believe that Christ's works at Calvary was not enough for my own salvation. But the evangelist in ONE MINUTE opened my ears that I could hear and my eyes that I could perceive THE TRUTH about my eternal destiny. I REPENTED from all my sins and TURNED to Jesus Christ. From that time onwards, my life had been drastically changed. From my own story, I can confidently say apart from the evangelists, many souls are losts. Thank you Lord God for Your anointed EVANGELISTS! germanJoy

Metaphysically you did call Worm a moron actually dummer than a moron: ["Sorry to tell you I venture to say that even a moron will be able to recognize its improbabilities."] actually from your point of view if he does not recognize these improbabliities he is dummer than a moron for a moron would see this. "Words mean things" and we should be careful how we use them........ Hey, other one. I as the author of what I wrote was clarifying my position on what I REALLY meant of what I said. You as JUST the reader are not in the position of making a FINAL WORD of what I think I said or I implied what I said. Your view is your own view, no more no less, but that does not represent the TRUTH. I as the AUTHOR have revealed the TRUTH BEHIND MY WORDS and NOTHING, not even your imaginations, interpretations or intellectual reasonings, CAN CHANGE THAT. PERIOD!!! Worm, thank you for accepting my apologies. I agree sometimes I use words incorrectly by not having a deep thought of its consequences. Well, I guess I am one who knows how to learn from my mistakes. I thank our Lord that I was given the chance to clarify this matter with you. germanJoy

Just for the record germanjoy, the following statement, which you conveniently left out, was made by you with regard to the term "moron"" "Sorry to tell you I venture to say that even a moron will be able to recognize its improbabilities." This was said with regard to my disagreement with your interpretation of the parable. You also engaged in name calling. Why not just admit it and move on instead of playing innocent? sw Worm, I missed this one...got caught up with our heated discussions on the other thread which was closed again. These were the records of how the moron was used. You claimed that the 5 VIRGINS were unbelievers in the parables. This was my response: I disagreed and pointed out that these virgins can in no way be unbelievers (who rejected Christ) simply because they were "pure" virgins waiting for Jesus Christ. My argument was on an objective mode, not subjective. I was focusing on the correct interpretation of the Parable. I never treated you here as the subject, neither as a person nor as a believer. The Parable was my subject, the center of my message. Basing on this analysis, I tried to take a moron as an example of someone who will be able to comprehend that it is impossible for an an UNBELIEVER to wait for Jesus Christ. My intention was to convince you that THERE IS NO WAY to miscomprehend this parable. The moron was NEVER in my mind and in my heart intended to be DIRECTED at you but was just used to end up any contentions. Even if I have to stand up at the judgement seat of Christ now, I will hold on to the truthfulness and the sincerity of my words. As for my own standard of understanding, to call names is to directly or indirectly say: you are a moron or you are like a moron or you are similar to a moron, etc. I cannot accept a wrongdoing which I have not done or be guilty as charged. Nevertheless, I am sorry that you felt attacked by my words. Please forgive me on the injuries I caused. I hope this smily can cover-up my shortcomings. Sincerely serving Christ, germanJoy

This is quite a "tricky" question but I'll try to answer it as discreet as possible. A person who has a REAL DEEP relationship with Christ cannot be lost (those who repent) but a person who has a FALLACIOUS SUPERFICIAL relationship with Christ can be lost (those who don't repent) and will hear "Depart from me" on the Judgment day. Both have relationships, both are sons but not both DO THE WILL OF THE FATHER. "But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, 'Son, go work today in the vineyard.' And he answered and said, 'I will, sir;' and he did not go. And he came to the second and said the same thing. But he answered and said, 'I will not;' yet he afterward regretted it and went. Which of the two did the will of his father?" They said, "The latter." Jesus said to them, "Truly truly I say to you that the tax-gatherers and harlots will get into the kingdom of God before you." Matthew 21:28-31 Similarly, one christian repents (rejects the system of traditional religion, got born again; sees himself as a sinner and turns to God) and works in the vineyard. The other christian repents not (like the pharisees born into the system of traditional religion but this time of Christianity and sees no need to be born again) and works not in the vineyard. Although both are sons, only one does the will of the Father. One said no but later obeyed, the other said yes but did not obey. Similar parables are given to illustrate the difference between having a real relationship and a fallacious relationship with God i.e, Parable of the Wheat and the Tares, Parable of the Ten Virgins, Parable of the Talent, etc. A true believer is one who has faith confirmed by works or good works. A false believer is one who has faith without works or faith with evil works. A true believer is one who believes on salvation by faith alone. A false believer is one who believes on salvation by faith PLUS one or many more. A true believer believes and calls to only One God in Three Persons revealed as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. A false believer believes on EITHER the Father OR the Son OR the Holy Spirit and/or calls to many holy saints/holy sons of god.... I can go on and on but my time is running out.

micen2, this was just Nebula's reply to my "humorous" reaction of SW's wrong "judgement" that I read Benny Hinn's bible. The truth is I neither personally knew Benny Hinn nor ever read any of his writings. I saw him once or twice on T.V. praying for the sick but do not know much about him. germanJoy

Mark, I personally find it all right if the moderators decide to close the thread. It is their own discretion and I do accept it without resentments. My only regret is not having the opportunity to clarify the statement I made that was obviously misinterpreted by the one involved. When I used the word "moron", I intentionally chose the pronoun "us" which apparently included myself. My statement was: "let us neither be morons nor unbelievers but let us be christians." I have not intended in my heart either to exclude the person involved as being a christian or to exclude myself from not being a moron. I do not know whether this is just what they call "mentality or cultural differences" but whatever it is, it could only be simply miscommunication or perhaps confusion. Nevertheless, I am honored to know that you find my arguments interesting. Your posts are inspiring, too! By the way, who is Benny Hinn? Be favored and be blessed in the Lord, germanJoy

Mark, thank God it is possible. If Jesus Christ is lifted up higher and higher, God will draw all men unto Himself. But only Jesus, no more no less; no Marys, no Peters, no Pauls, no Josephs, no Sto. Ninyos, no Black Nazarene, etc. except JESUS CHRIST ALONE. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself. John 12:32 Let us forsake the rest and lift only JESUS up if we truly care for the salvation of all men.

Sometime in 1989, I deserted a full-gospel spirit-filled church (Christian Life Fellowship) when the leaders embraced the teachings of the Episcopal Church out of their desire to win the Roman Catholics. Their motto then was "if you cannot beat them, join them". The danger I saw then was their willingness to compromise the truth to win Catholic souls. To make the long story short, they officially became Episcopals. My biological sister faithfully remained in this church and her husband became a bishop. I gradually saw and experienced the change in their lifestyle, behaviour, and teachings (from better to worse). I could not help but be reminded of Jesus' words: A dog returns to its vomit. A sow after washing wallows in the mire. Today, their home is filled with idols, statutes of saints whom they pray to. They believe Mary as Immaculate, all saints and our dead relatives as our intercessors and mediators to God. The name Jesus is NO LONGER the ONLY Way, the ONLY Truth, the ONLY Life, the ONLY Mediator, the ONLY Intercessor, the ONLY Saviour but MANY NAMES, endless of names are available for our rescue.... Very very sad but true!

Amen, EricH. From the book of Genesis to Revelation, God's will on healing was, is, and will be evident. The presence of the tree of life at the Garden of Eden in Genesis 2:9 and at the new earth in Revelation 22:2 fulfills the purpose of healing as God's perfect will for mankind and/or nations. Momentarily, medicine and science tries (through the help of nature from plants, tree leaves in parallel to Rev.) to create temporary solutions to the problem but its limits are foreseen and acknowledged. But not with God, if God finally puts an end to sickness, He places the tree of life. ...And on either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. Rev. 22:2 The tree of life in Genesis was the source of healing for Adam and Eve. But when they sinned, death came through sickness for the tree of life was no longer available for them. And out of the ground the Lord God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil....v 9 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die...v16 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim, and the flaming sword which turned every direction, to guard the way to the tree of life. Gen. 2:24 For us Christians today, Jesus Christ is our tree of life, the fountain and the source of our healing! germanJoy

In the same way, talking to a person who believes that the Bible is erring leaves also no room for "education". Truth cannot be changed and faith cannot be proven. God is the initiator and the finisher of both. As the potter of a clay, God hardens whom He wants and forms whom He chooses. Not all believe and not all reject the truth and faith in Christ. It is God's eternal plan and it is man's choice to believe or not. No one can prove the truth unless God Himself wills it. Many times, Jesus was challenged to prove that He is the Son of God. He proved it to the believing but not to the disbelieving. He performed miracles to those who believe but left the unbelievers with none. On top of it, He declared those who do not see (who do not require for proofs) but believe as more blessed. Therefore, only those who believe will be able to fully grasp THE TRUTH, I say THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH who is no other than Jesus Christ. Allah had Mohammed as his founder. Mohammed was a mere man who like all other religious leaders and founders are judged by the words of Christ and are bound to perish. Mohammed's words were not eternal and his deeds were evil. Anyone in Christ can be confident that the Allah he preached and believed in was not the true and living God. Neither Mohammed nor Buddha nor Joseph Smith, etc. or any of their followers lived a sinless life, thenceforth was risen from the dead and appeared to hundreds of their disciples afterwards. But the Jesus Christ we preached has done just that. For He is GOD in the flesh, the maker of all things, the only revealed truth of who and what really God is. He was the fulfillment of all the prophesies from Moses, Isaiah and all true prophets of God regarding the Messiah. Emeralgirl, if you want proof you need to first believe then see but it never works the other way around. You can start by believing the events in the Cross of Calvary.

You're welcome, Mark. Together as one body, we are called to to lift Jesus up higher and higher. Jesus therefore said: "When you lift up the Son of Man you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative but I speak these things as the Father taught Me." John 8:28 Let all who have ears, hear what Jesus said: "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

SW, in the spirit of love and gentleness, I have to say that when I decided to become an apologetic of Trinity, I needed to renounce my Catholic faith. The doctrine of Trinity upholds One God in three Persons, not four or more (as how Catholics would view it). In the agape love of Christ, germanJoy Wow! Where'd you get that idea? The RCC professes 3 Persons in one God. Out of respect for the OP, I won't argue it here, Wayne. I'll PM germanjoy with the Catechism reference that will set him/her straight on Catholic teaching. Thanks but no need, Fiosh. I taught Catechism and I was really very good at it! germanJoy

Great posts of scriptures, Mark. How can one still afford to miss the whole message of the divinity of Christ? Indeed, there are no more excuses. Keep it up, brother!

Christ............. is seated at the right hand of the father. and he said......."why callest thou me good"......"there is none good- but the father- which is in heaven." If christ is god.......then why would he himself ,continually direct us to a seperate entity- calling himself less than the father? micen2, what you are doing is taking one scripture out of context and make it your own half-truth. Indeed, Christ as Son of God and Son of Man, had to say things identifying Himself to be both, God and man. Therefore, on one hand, He said "there is none good but the Father" implying His manhood and on the other hand, He claimed: "I and the Father are one." implying His godliness. And that my dear, is the WHOLE TRUTH.

SW, in the spirit of love and gentleness, I have to say that when I decided to become an apologetic of Trinity, I needed to renounce my Catholic faith. The doctrine of Trinity upholds One God in three Persons, not four or more (as how Catholics would view it). In the agape love of Christ, germanJoy

Excuse me, emeraldgirl, I have difficulties grasping your analogy. How can the flood story be considered as scientifically impossible and the virgin birth as logical? Taking into account that neither cloning nor in vitro fertilisation was preposterous during Christ's birth, both doctrines should be incomprehensible to you. One needs to know God more to have a better understanding of His character. An Almighty God does accordiing to His pleasure and purpose. He hankers doing things beyond human reasoning so that we may simply perceive our restrictions compared to His dynamic supremacy. Thus, He resolved to effect an impossible flood story than starting from scratch. Besides, His plans were unalterable... it was through the seed of Eve that the Christ was to come which would make your "scratch start" non-acceptable. God speaking to the serpent, And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. He shall bruise you on the head, and you shall bruise him on the heel." Gen. 3:15 As parents, we love to discipline our children...we see the necessity of it. The only way for them to comprehend good and evil is to see its consecutive consequences. As parents, we also instinctively protect them. Anyone who would do harm to our kids can expect trouble from us. In parallel to this, God had revealed Himself to all mankind as the heavenly Father. He had given His conditions on how to be a member of His family. He disciplines and protects His family. When Noah built the Ark, no one believed him, no one wanted to join God's family despite of Noah's warnings of the coming flood. Thus, they faced the consequences of their unbelief and evil mockeries. They had their chances but they chose to disobey, the door was shut, the flood came and destroyed them all. God's goodness moves Him to send His prophets for warning before He pours out His wrath. His wrath is justified for He is a just God who rewards good and punishes evil. For even the rulers of the earth punishes criminals, how could we put in question the punishment of a just God? You are partly right in your belief, emeralgirl. There is good in all humans as man was created according to God's image and likeness. We were originally created not just morally neutral but morally good. However, man was given a choice to eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. Man chose to sin and evil reigned him from that time on, although good also remained. The war between good and evil in his flesh began. But more often than not, evil wins and the global consequences of it is evident. You see, God knew, before we even realized it, our helplessness He lavishly bequeathed us His most precious gem, His only begotten Son. Isn't God really good? The love of God can only be measured by God's standard, not men. Being the author of love, Jesus has perfectly exampled how it is rightly lived. God displayed His love to the world by giving His Son and this love can only be returned to God by accepting His Son. Thus, to reject the Son is to hate God. That is the first and foremost standard of God's love. No one who reject Christ can love God no matter how good he thinks he lives. His good deeds are not sufficient to satisfy God's expectation of loving Him. Again, as a parent you can only like or love people who accept and love your son. No matter how good they live, if they reject your son, you too will reject them. And I would go for "spiritual pregnancy" childbearing.

That exactly is the reason why God can be explained only in Trinity. You are right, no one has seen God (the Father) except Jesus. Interestingly, the Father's role is distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Son came in the flesh, revealed God Himself and physically appeared and was physically seen by all. The Spirit of God had been rooming around His creation the whole time, showed Himself face-to-face to Jacob and He (the Lord) also appeared in a manner seen by those He chose like Abraham, Isaac, David, Solomon, etc. That explains Trinity: One (plural) Lord (Echad Elohim). Now the Lord appeared to him (Abraham) by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. Gen. 18:1 Then the Lord appeared to Solomon at night and said to him, "I have heard your prayer, and have chosen this place for Myself as a house of sacrifice." 2 Chronicles 7:12 The Spirit of God Almighty was seen by Abraham, Isaac and Jacob but the Lord "YHWH", was not seen except by Jesus. And YHWH is known and made known in and by Christ. For we see YHWH in Christ. Thus, Jesus is YHWH manifesting Himself. God spoke further to Moses and said to him, "I am the Lord; and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name, Lord (YHWH), I did not make Myself known to them. Exodus 6:2-3

In order to properly understand a particular verse, we need to look at the whole context not just part. Starting from verse 18 of 1 John Chapter 2, John was warning his children (his disciples) of the antichrist spirit. This spirit has crept into the church and John wanted them to be vigilant and not be taught by anyone except by the Holy Spirit that abides in them. Thus, by saying "ye need not that any man teach you", John meant the man with the antichrist spirit. That is the full meaning of 1 John 2:27. It does not, I repeat, it does not apply to the teachers (who have the Holy Spirit) in the five-fold ministry. The anti-christ spirit is every spirit apart from the true spirit of the living God the Father. Let God be true and every man a liar. The anti-christ spirit which is Satan himself the prince of the power of the air is in the world and has been since the serpent in the garden came and brought temptation to mankind this spirit is in the world and in the church it manifest in the flesh just as Holy Spirit of God will in Jesus Christ is come in the flesh manifest itself in the believers life it is called walking in the Spririt as we confess Jesus is in us the hope of glory. Even the word teaches us that Satan himself transforms and an angel of light and also "his ministers" transforms into minister's of righteousness and these minister's do not confess Jesus Christ come in the flesh and says this is the anti-christ spirit. And those that do this do not practice nor advocate a changed lifestyle in the church. This is anti-christ spirit. The anti-christ spirit promotes the natural man the old man unregenerate before God the Spirit of the Father the Spirit of truth promotes and advocates Jesus Christ come in the flesh and brings a change to one's life called being made a new creature in Christ Jesus also the new man created in Christ Jesus. The anti-christ spirit which is satan wants us to stay in that old nature we were born with from our parents the old nature earthly identity in the family of the earth. But Spirit of our Heavenly Father wants us to identify with His nature the divine nature that can be imparted to a person who wants to be born again hence the spiritual family of God and be taught of God in His ways hence a new family spiritual in nature, one new man, the new creature the divine nature of God residing in us. Christ in us the hope of glory is the mystery revealed or made known unto mankind anything apart from this is anti-christ spirit the spirit of the devil himself. Did I say anything else in my post contrary to your response? Is my I.Q. getting low or am I just missing anything?

In order to properly understand a particular verse, we need to look at the whole context not just part. Starting from verse 18 of 1 John Chapter 2, John was warning his children (his disciples) of the antichrist spirit. This spirit has crept into the church and John wanted them to be vigilant and not be taught by anyone except by the Holy Spirit that abides in them. Thus, by saying "ye need not that any man teach you", John meant the man with the antichrist spirit. That is the full meaning of 1 John 2:27. It does not, I repeat, it does not apply to the teachers (who have the Holy Spirit) in the five-fold ministry.

Well, if the question is meant to "Who saw Jesus", it is impossible to name all the names who saw God. But if the question is who saw Jesus after His ascencion, my answer is the Apostle Paul in Acts 9:3-7 and Stephan who was stoned in Acts. 7:56. However, if the question is meant for the old testament people and if it is meant to be face-to-face, my answer is Jacob, Genesis 32:30 So Jacob named the place Peniel, for he said, "I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved.