Oh No Melon

I never said "nondenominationalism" was without its flaws. I was raised in the Pentecostal church, but now I prefer to remain unaffiliated. Sectarianism has it's pro's, but I feel it's in Christendom's best interests that we focus on our similarities. There is nothing inherently "wrong" with diversity, but unity should take precedence.

Our own actions have predetermined consequences. The actions themselves are not predetermined. God did not "program" us to be mindless robots. If Adam was truly free to act according to his own desires, then he had FREE WILL. You pretty much summed up my position. I take it you do not agree with "absolute" predestination (i.e. God is the driving Force behind everything that comes to pass). It is my belief that God enabled Man to fall, but He did not cause Man to fall. You're on a slippery slope. One might suggest anti-Semitism is the fruit of replacement theology, which is a form of Covenantalism, which is rooted in Calvinism. Though I do believe open theism is a result of free will... that is, it's a manmade doctrine. And if it is God who directs men to believe in heresy, that makes God a deceiver, which of course He is not. I believe it is written in Joshua: "Choose this day whom you will serve. As for me and my house, we shall serve the LORD." This explicitly states we have a choice to either reject or serve God. What does a predestination adherant make of this verse? No, God cannot, under any circumstance, destroy civilization again with a flood. He CANNOT do it. It is IMPOSSIBLE. What good are God's promises if He is able to break them? Is saying "God does not have the capacity to lie" attacking His sovereignty? Of course not. God is "limited" only by His holy Word (promises and prophecies) and His divine nature. Sinning is, by definition, acting outside the will of God. So how is it possible that He could ordain it? I'm afraid you're misunderstanding me. Mankind's free will is like the laws of nature. God designed the natural laws to govern His creation, but He Himself the Creator is not governed by them (e.g. Miracles sometimes violate the laws of nature). Likewise, God imbued us with the power of choice -- the only real power we have. But no free will adherant I know believes the Almighty is bound by the decisions we make. That's why I say God "allows" things to happen to us. Most bad experiences in our lives are the result of our own bad choices, not fate or predestiny. When He predestines an event, it is in the form of prophecy. God certainly has the power and authority to intervene if He feels the need to (usually with the "elect": Israel and Christendom), but He more often lets things run their course. I believe there is a verse in the Psalms stating "Time and chance happen to us all." Hmm. I'll have to get back to you on that. All apologies. However, it boggles my mind how Christians could suggest God would employ the forces of evil. He works with us through hard times, but I find a difficult time accepting those hard times come from Him in the first place. Suggesting God would ever ordain some of those terrible things I mentioned, to me, is blaspheming God's character -- which angers me. And if I ever did consider what Calvinists postulate to be true, I would be forced to seriously question my faith. Unlike st. Worm, who ..if I remember correctly.. likened me to a blind rodent, I prefer not to engage in personal attacks. I admit frustration is a problem for me, and for this, I humbly apologize. We DON'T have the power to thwart God's purposes. THAT is open theism. Well yes, I agree. However, I do not believe this is a very clear example because it involves God's plan for Jerusalem, God's favorite city. And Israel is the only nation I believe to have been created by a sovereign act of God. It's the apple of His eye. IN CONTEXT (45:4): "For the sake of Jacob my servant, of Israel my chosen, I summon you by name and bestow on you a title of honor, though you do not acknowledge me." God interceded on Israel's behalf, for His chosen people the Jews. "I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me. I am the LORD, and there is no other. I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things." - Isaiah 45:5-7 From this passage I conclude that God is sovereign -- that He has the ability and reserves the right to create or destroy, bless or curse, reward or chastise -- not that He commands all the good and evil that comes to pass. I completely agree with the second part of this statement, but the first part seems a bit questionable. Let me get this straight: Because of God's goodness He is not able to directly dispense evil, so He is forced to use Satan as a "middle man" to deliver evil TO us (By secondary agents, I assume you mean fallen angels). We must then, of our own free will, choose God's path of righteousness; we are held accountable for the choices we make. Okay, I disagree with the notion that God desires that we experience evil. I believe that God allowed the Fall so that through His Son we would be able to have a deeper communion with Him than was previously possible. But you just said "the being freely chooses according to his desires." This IS free will! That human beings have the Godgiven freedom to make their own decisions. This is not MY logic. This is logic. Do you believe, as st. Worm does, that this is Luther's "theology of glory", that predestination is incapable of being understood and we must simply accept it? I semi-explained this passage: The Bible says that God was angry with Israel. Now without even reviewing the context, we may assume that God was not angry at "nothing". There must have been a cause for His anger. What I am trying to say is Israel brought this burden upon its ruler. Because David was in such a position of authority, God held him accountable for the sins of Israel. Because Satan delights in seeing God's annointed fall. God permitted this. EXACTLY. David was given an option. He could have chosen to obey God, but instead He chose to number Israel. This flies in the face of predestination. Ultimately, He is. God does exercise control over both good and evil, BUT that evil does not come from Him. Right now, His Holy Spirit keeps the evil of the world in check. Right on! ** By the way, I don't know why my post wouldn't quote. >.<

In my honest opinion, denominations are cells of believers that saw one wonderful Truth of God... and exploited it.

Fortunately I work at a movie theater, so I'll be able to see the Da Vinci Code free of charge. But I don't think I could ever pay money to see a film like that.

Causality: Each of our actions comes packaged with consequences. Predestination: God ordains all that comes to pass. Just because you know an event will occur and you plan accordingly, does that necessarily mean you make it happen? Of course God knew that Adam would eat of the forbidden tree, but it's positively absurd to suggest that God forced him to rebel. What kind of Father would give His child a rule, make him break it, then curse him because he disobeyed? By no stretch of the imagination is that a "just" punishment. Open theism limits God and redefines His nature. God is only limited when He chooses to limit Himself. How? Mainly by His Word. "God cannot destroy cthe world again by flood." Does this statement challenge God's sovereignty? Of course not. Why? Because God promised Noah He would never destroy the human race again with water. God is bound to His Word. It is against His nature to break His Word. Therefore, God CANNOT destroy the world again by flood. You fail to see the crucial difference between an allowance and a mandate. God permits us to sin against Him. He does not ordain us to sin against Him. That's just sick. You may believe that it is limiting God's sovereignty to say that we have the ability to act outside of His will, but I find it unfathomable that "believers" have the audacity to suggest God mandates all of the horrible things that go on in the world. Men are tortured and maimed; women are beaten and raped; innocent children are abused. Tell me, what sadistic god would ordain such evil deeds? These are offenses against Almighty God. How could a Christian in his right mind suggest this is His perfect will? The people of Israel had invoked the wrath of God. God did not invoke His own wrath. If God had caused Israel to rebel, then He would be invoking His own wrath. I don't call that "sovereignty". I call that a personality disorder. Cause: Israel becomes disobedient. Effect: God issues punishment. Are you suggesting here that Satan is NOT working against God? It would appear that you believe God ordained a Satanic attack against King David. If God dictates every attack of the Enemy, then one must conclude that both God and Satan are working on the same side. God allows bad things to happen to us, certainly, but those bad things don't originate with Him. Consider this syllogism: 1. God is omnibenevolent, all-good in every respect. 2. No evil can originate with an all-good Entity. 3. Evil occurs. 4. God cannot cause evil to occur because of (2). 5. God is not the cause of all that occurs because of (4). ___________________________________________ Therefore: Predestination is logically impossible.

You simply refuse to debate! You NEVER address my points. You only patronize and ridicule me. You just figured that out? I believe in causality, not predestination. Free will and open theism have nothing to do with each other. God is ABSOLUTELY sovereign. Man's will does NOT supercede's God's will. I believe it is God's will that Man should have the power of choice. How is this problematic? On the other hand, predestination makes God out to be a divine Tyrant. I don't expect you to answer this question (you've evaded all of my questions so far), but how can God ordain sinful actions? I'm not going to say it again because if I do, I'll go crazy. I don't care about John Calvin's personal beliefs or Martin Luther's personal beliefs or any other dead theologian's personal beliefs. If you know them and you would like to argue them, I'd be happy to hear them. Otherwise, stop bringing this up. You've really got nerve. Grace is by definition unconditional. I believe that grace was extended to ALL people on the cross, and it is by grace through faith that we recieve salvation. However, in order to receive God's grace, we must confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord and believe in our hearts that the Father raised Him from the grave. That is the condition. It's apparent you haven't quite got the idea of "free will". All it states is that God enabled human beings to make decisions for themselves. Nothing more, nothing less. It's not like we're the scum of the earth. We were fearfully and wonderfully made in God's image. I'm sure you have... See above (three paragraphs).

YAY! You finally answered me! God may have ultimate control over creation, but He also imbued us with the gift of free will. I believe that Man abused this gift which resulted in the Fall. I think of it like I do the internet: It can be used in constructive and positive ways, or it can also be used to implement evil. The decision is ours, and we shall be judged by how we choose to conduct ourselves. I do NOT believe that God predestines each of our actions. You and I were sinners, so if God dictated our behavior before we came to Christ, we would be forced to conclude that God Himself is a sinner. This, of course, is preposterous. My sins are mine and mine alone. If predestination is correct, how could I justly be held accountable for my actions? I agree. God is omniscient, but I do not believe He ordains ALL that comes to pass. Sin comes to pass, and it is foolish to believe that God ordains sin. Our salvation is secure because we confess and believe. According to God's Word, Christ's righteousness is then ascribed to us, and we are justified in the sight of the Father. I cannot believe that God would harm His creation for His own glory. God allowed the Fall, but He could not have ordained our rebellion. More questions: Why would God have given us His Word if, as you imply, people are not even able to accept or reject its teachings? Were some predestined by God to be homosexuals or rapists or even pedophiles? Is it possible that I was predestined to reject Calvinism? It's a fair question, one that warrants a sound, biblical explanation. It's one that folks who accept predestinationism must struggle with. But saying that "we were never meant to understand" is unacceptable. There's a simple answer: a definitive NO. God did not orchestrate the Fall of Man because that would imply God is the source of Mankind's depravity. Surely you don't disagree with this. Of course not. Holy Scripture determines what is sound doctrine. Total Depravity = Sinners can't do good works even if they try. Unconditional Election = Man has no control over his own salvation. Limited Atonement = God forces most into separation. Irresistable Grace = We do not have the ability to reject the Gospel. Predestination = God is the ultimate cause of our problems.

How many times must I say this for you to understand? I am not necessarily basing my arguments on the theology of John Calvin. I am opposed to much of the doctrine endorsed by those who call themselves his followers; Calvin's personal beliefs are irrelevant at this point. And FYI, my best friend recieved salvation during an altar call. I have noticed that, rather than present the arguments yourself, you instruct people to either "read Calvin" or "read Luther". I must assume you are an expert in both of their theologies, so why won't you debate on their behalfs? Once again, will you PLEASE answer the question I posted?

I assumed you were a Calvinist because you are defending Calvinism. My apologies if you are not. So what exactly do you believe? Yes, many reformists do indeed treat certain scriptures that clearly contradict their doctrines as paradoxical -- as you did. I have debated Calvinists before, and most have said the same thing. "This verse only 'appears' to go against what I believe. I agree it doesn't make sense, but God's will is a mystery, and who are you to question it?" Limited atonement is probably the most controversial doctrine in Calvinism. The idea that God predestined most to reprobation (i.e. eternity separated from God in hell) makes many believers uneasy. I can't even understand how it's possible to reach this conclusion without having been indoctrinated into this interpretation. "For God so loved the WORLD..." and "God is willing that NONE should perish" seem pretty self-explanatory to me. This is not one of the great paradoxes of God's Word. This is a contradiction between the doctrine of limited atonement and Holy Scripture. The only way to make these verses fit TULIP is to pump them full of eisegesis. I have read some of Calvin's commentaries, but that's about it. So could you please explain how what I wrote above gives you the idea that I have not read any of his works? I respond to what Calvin's contemporaries are saying. I don't need to read Calvin's writings or Luther's writings or any other dead theologian's writings to effectively debate this issue. I view much of what Calvinism supposes as ice cold heresy. TULIP is an extravagent belief system; it creates more questions than it answers. By the way, you have not yet answered my question. Do you believe that God is the ultimate cause of Man's Fall. It's a very simple question. Take your time. Consult as many Renaissance theologians as you need. I'd like an answer. As I said before, I really don't care about John Calvin. He's long gone, and I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of Calvinists have never read his writings either. My main concern is what Christians believe now. And I am sick and tired of the patronizing blather I face on an almost daily basis from people who identify themselves as Calvin's followers. They constantly talk down to non-reformists informing us that we'll eventually come around to their way of thinking, and they use the same stale cop-outs when Arminians challenge their interpretations. The "paradox" is a classic Calvinist attempt to reconcile TULIP with God's Word and a flagrant refusal to acknowledge a doctrinal error. I hear this quite often, and I view it as intellectually dishonest. I absolutely respect others' beliefs as long as they have intellectual integrity and are open to discussion. Incidently, you don't get very far with someone by attacking their knowledge of the Bible.

I thought the left and right hand paths were unique to Satanism.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Mary Baker Eddy founded Christian Science.

I was wondering if this was somehow related to the three-body problem. So I guess you answered my question. I do recall "Lagrangian points" (as they relate to the orbital positions of Trojan asteroids) from an astronomy course I took not too long ago. Neat stuff. Oh, wait. Are you talking about electrons switching shells? Awesome. Physics rocks. To be perfectly honest, the only thing that would keep me from becoming a physicist is the Godzilla math required to actually understand the stuff.

Okay, I think I gotcha. A couple of questions, though. Does chaos theory factor into this? Come to think of it, is chaos theory even applicable to quantum mechanics? Are you serious? Haha. I recall an episode of Star Trek where they mentioned "Heisenberg compensators" allowing their transporters to work. My mistake. I shouldn't have used the word "changed". "Determined" is a more correct term. See above. But I think you're being a bit nitpicky. lol No, they aren't mutually exclusive. But I do believe light could be considered paradoxical in nature. What else can be treated as both a wave and a particle? From my perspective, it doesn't make sense. It's just something we have to accept. I'm learning, slowly but surely. So are you a scientist or just a physics buff? I have noticed you often contribute to topics on the natural sciences, and I enjoy reading your posts.

So you believe that God ordains sinful actions? I see. I guess this answers my question. You do, in fact, believe that God orchestrated the Fall of Man. Why is it that when "reformed" believers reach the conclusion that key Calvinist doctrines deviate from God's Word, rather than alter their views, they label it a paradox? Holy Scripture and limited atonement are not paradoxical. They are contradictory. God is willing that NONE should perish. Yours is a very anti-intellectual approach. Did you ever consider the possibility that this verse can't be reconciled with Calvinism because your position is unbiblical?

Great post, nebula. I know a little bit about physics, so maybe I can help readers understand some of what Dr. Goldfinger is trying to get across.