Davve

I have started getting spam in my e-mail accout under the name Daave and this is the only formatt that I use that name. I no longer have a use for Worthy Boards.

As a father of five that are all on their own now, I can say that it pays to be consistant in your persuit of Christ. That may be the wrong way to express it, but I am sure you catch my drift. While others may quit or question, and even though I have had times of confusion and disappointment in my quest to know Jesus and the reality of a true relationship with the father through the Holy Ghost. My children have witnessed a passionate persuit of truth in Christ during their life time of growing up with me and are maturing into young men and women of passion as well. Although I see the currnet teachings about the Holy Ghost as deceptive and manipulative, I was in them, and I was saved, but not because of them, rather, it was in spite of them, protected (I believe) by a sincere passion to know Jesus, as Paul said, "That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead." And constant exposure, privately, to the Word of God to understand what God himself is saying in context as it is written. One thing that I call the missing method of interpreting the scriptures is looking at how their faith was lived out, not just what was said, but how was it lived out. In applying that to those lives in the Bible, as well as those who are often considered "Spiritual Leaders" sends one once again wanting only the truth. God Bless you in your endevours today my brother, Daave

So where does ridiculing and belittling others fit into your servanthood? Seems to me like you could have prefaced your entire post by saying "In my own personal opinion" instead of tossing out a lot of bitter, and superior-sounding rhetoric like it was fact. . . What part of your post above is constructive or edifying? Good Questions! The constructive parts are these: 1. Where do you think tongues lead? I don't want anyone to blindly follow their teachers. 2. The unspoken message of pentecostalism is that experience is the truth, thus by sharing my experience I hope that I am appealing to the language most pentecosals are familiar with. Here is another experince....I have been a staggering drunk from bellying up to the bar of what is called the Holy Ghost, numb lips, slurred speach, falling down drunk and held to the floor by an unseen presence that pressed upon my whole body, while calling on Jesus and praising God for being able to be drunk in the spirit but without having a hang over. When we are first saved and Jesus is so precious to us and we experinece sin that once enticed us with such strenght has lost it's power and we can come off a little obnoxious to those who are still fighting with addictions we have little or no struggle with any longer because of who Jesus is to us, and the power of the Holy Ghost applying the blood of the covenant of Christ to our lives. Well that would be me as an ex-pentacostal. I am so glad to be a normal Jesus loving, Holy Ghost lead child of God. I have included some quotes from Matthew Matthew 23 1. Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2. Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3. All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5. But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, 6. And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7. And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. 8. But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. 13. But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. 14. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. 15. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. 16. Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! 17. Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? 18. And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty. 19. Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? 20. Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. 21. And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. 22. And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon. 23. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. 24. Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. 25. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. 26. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. 27. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. 28. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. 29. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30. And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? 34. Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35. That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. 37. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38. Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. Luke 6:24 But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation. 25. Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep. 26. Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets. Somber warnings arn't they. Luke chapter 11 has some Woe's as well, why would Jesus say these things, what scriptures was he quoteing? He didn't quote any did he, he clearly stated what they were doing. One of the consatant failings of Israel was that of the nation going back into the pagan practices of the surrounding nations. Do you know which pagan practices our are churchs involved in now? Are you willing to search it out? Daave 2 Timothy 4 1. I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2. Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4. And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

I sure had a lot of fun reading all the responses justifying seeking tongues. Seems to me that those who recieved them in the Bible didn't seek them or ask for them or desire them, they just got them. I think that is just so cool the way the Holy Ghost did something that they didn't ask or seek for, but equiped them for, at the time that they needed it. I love it. As an ex-penacostal I enjoy hearing the passion with which the Gifts and defended and Tongues are defended. My well meaning, but misguided pastors led me to, "The Power" of God also, but were all the while leading me further away from Jesus himself. Tongues are a waste of time and energy and rob a saint from serving Jesus without their own agenda being incorporated. (that should get a lot of quotes)Look, it's something we are seeking after, going for....for What? More power, More direct connection, More special or secret knowlege, More, More More....I remember being in services were all we did was Cry Fervently, MORE....MORE....MORE....MORE....Tears streaming down our faces, wailing and crying and reaching, and when someone screamed we all got excited because someone just got touched by God! Where do you think tongues lead? Don't you see it? The Bible is superseeded by the NEW word from God spoken by the pastor or someone in the congreation. Yes the Bible says: Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. But we prove all things by taking texts from here and there and putting them all together like a puzzle so the picutre is what we think it should look like. So what ever doctrine we think fits, gets sucked into the mix. I have relation that are still in the tongues deception of today. They pity me. I watch them be manipulated by highly emotionally charged services where; "God really showed up this morning" and are so addicted to "Proof Text Preaching" that as they read the Bible, context is not a consideration any longer, just personal revelation. What A Mess! I am a servant of Jesus Christ alone. My identity is wraped up in him. I have no agenda but to serve him today, and, by the grace and mercy of God, tomorrow. I want no power, I want no special word, I want only to serve him by serving those around me, and I trust him to equip me along the way. An ex-pentacostal with no regretts, Daave

Brother Sherman, I thank you for your kindness and your understanding of my being so protective of what I have with Jesus Christ alone. My time in prayer now is more precious and more confident than ever in my life, and as I said before, so much more productive. I simply wait before my Father and expose my heart before him and then in return he will expose his heart to me and I pray. I require no tongues, the Holy Ghost is there with me as I pray and I know it. He changes me, he brings to me what sin needs addressing, and I come to my Father and we once again experinece the cleansing blood of Jesus my Lord. I have life more abundantly and it is centered in Jesus Christ my Lord as I grow and experinece the true life that he died for me to have. I get so frustrated with the teachings that want to reduce what I have in relationship; to a system, or a sequence, or rules of engagement, or your missing out if you don't have this. (There I go again) What I have I believe is what everyone is hungery for and it only comes through Jesus alone. God's word is what has brought to our natural minds that which is truely Spirit, something only God could do, and I am so thankful. Thank You for understanding. I know Jesus, and I am after noting but him. I will let him direct my heart so I can ernestly desire him because with him comes everything I need now and in eternity. Brother Dave

The marriage is a very good analogy and Paul uses it two ways, between the individual and Christ and Christ with His Church. But in particular, your analogy is not quite correct. The believer believes it to be permanent and works to keep it permanent. But, being a sinful being, that union can be broken. There is nothing in this world that makes it concrete. There can even be unfaithfulness but repentance can heal. To put it in the OSAS version, they also believe it is permanent. Permanent to such an extent that one cannot break that union. That even if one marriage ceases, partner becomes unfaithful, one is still considered married, valid as before. In some cases, one can remarry, and still be considered as having the first union. You cannot fall, falling, or ceasing a marriage is an impossibility. Thaddaeus, I believe that I understand you to be saying that once entering into relationship with Jesus, that there is absolutely no possible way that you can ever, under any circumstances loose what God has given. I believe that are ample examples of those who simply use this way of thinking to live as close to sin as possible, and even some believeing they are saved when in fact, they are not. The absolute permanency of the relationship we experince in Christ Jesus is not by "works" or "Working at it," but rather by our sensitivity to it, by our heart and desires being changed, hence we experience the permancy of the relationship we enter into with the one who will never leave us nor forsake us, and we know it. If there is no process of change occuring in the life of the one claiming Christ Jesus as Lord, holding on to the doctrine of OSAS is of no value and just legal wrangling trying to justify sin in our life. ISAS (If Saved Always Saved) Daave

Brother Sherman, I am sure you consider what I have to say as an irritant that borders on, if not considered, blasphemy. But I am quite familiar with 1Corinthians chapters 12, 13 and 14 and have studied them through many times as well as Acts 2, 10, 19 and Jude 20. I would like us to be reminded that the same chapter in 1st Corinthians that contains the command,"...and forbid not to speak in tongues" and is championed as the battle cry of those sold on tongues as invalualble in the Christian experiece; forget that contained in the same chapter and in the same paragraph is the command: " 34. Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." Now all the sudden we have to start expaining why things are different now and that things have changed since this was first penned, when this is clearly a command. Look, I have already gone the route of speaking in tongues more than ye all, I have have even taught it! I have spent hours upon hours in what is identified as self-edification going for months praying almost exclusively in tongues, I have experineced different dialects, I experieced what was idendified as the waters of the river of life and swam in it. I have prayed in tongues for hours on end in my car, at church, at home, why? Because it is the most efficient way to pray. It builds me up and the devil can't undersand what I am saying. It's the Holy Ghost that is praying and his prayers are always answered. Right? We are always to be waiting for the next word from or direction from God the Holy Ghost arn't we? Otherwise we will miss it and be in disobediance. I traveled down all those roads and after some 25years of it, it all led me further and further from Jesus, not closer. I'm so glad that I don't speak in tongues anymore or attend chruchs that do; I actually know how to pray now. I actually can trust God in every circumstance, I have seen the Holy Spirit move in the hearts of those I pray for as I never did when I was casting out devils and laying hold on the promises and standing on promises by saying them over and over and over. (That's faith you know) Nope, tongues and I are done, and my desire is for Jesus alone. I'd rather have Jesus and trust him in everything and in that way have the Holy Ghost direct my desires. Daave

I believe in the Eternal Security of the Believer! I don't believe in OSAS. Marriage is permanent and life long is it not? If your answer is yes, you think like a believer. If your answer is no....you think like OSAS. Daave

Tongues are WAY to over rated and the gifts are most definately not trophys to be mounted on my spiritual wall waiting there for me to choose the right weapon for battle, I do get weary of the Gift hunters. You are so right in saying that "everything you need will be provided." and along with that, it will be provided when it is needed. After a while there is simply the knowing that what you need will be provided as you need it, it is the same as the confidence we have that prayers are being answered. There are far to many wanting it all, and making sure their list of gifts are a little bit more complete. Daave

And 1 Corinthians 13 also mentions prophecy and knowledge ceasing as well, and they obviously have not ceased, so why would only tongues cease or be singled out. I think sometimes way too much emphasis is put on tongues and their importance, and it is a gift that can definitely be abused or mis-used, but it has not ceased any more than any of the other gifts have ceased. When God does not want us to do something, the bible is always very clear on it. But 1 Corinthians 14 (verse 39) instructs us not to forbid people from speaking in tongues. Pretty clear that the gift is still in use. Paul is looking forward here to the end of the age and our going home to be with the Lord, not our walk here on earth. 1Cor. 14:39 Clearly says "...forbid not to speak with tongues." 1Cor. 14:34 Clearly says "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permited unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law." And since what was started in the first church is to flow right into todays church uninterrupted, let's start preaching loud and clear..."Let Your Women Keep Silent In The Church"sermons. Come On Step up and start preaching it! You see, there is a difference between now and then isn't there. God Bless, Daave

When dealing with different or strange tounges, as they have come to be called, we must move forward with caution. We must ask ourselves: What is the purpose of praying or speaking in some unknown tounge? The Bible states clearly in 1 Corinthians chapter 14 that unless there is someone translating, you must keep quite, speaking to God alone. Paul tells us that he would rather say 5 words in a language he knows and others understand that speaking 1000 words in some unknown tounge. Everything that comes from God will edify us. How are we being edified, illuminated, or improved by speaking a language that we infact do not understand ourselves. And if we don't understand, will the people who listen interpret that? And if no one understands, is there any task being accomplished? We must remember that there are two spirits at work here. God's, and the devil's. Remember, that if it doesn't edify, it doesn't come from God. And if it doesn't come from God, where does it come from? The devil. Now, don't get me wrong. I believe in the gift of tounges. But we must not distort what the Bible tells us. Acts 2 tells us of a remarkable outpouring of the spirit, resulting in the bestowal of the gift of tounges on the apostles. What tounges did they speak? Strange, unknown languages? No. They spoke Greek, Latin, Arabic, Hebrew, etc. There were many people there from many backgrounds, and each heard the apostles speak in THEIR own langauges, which caught them offguard, for they asked amongst themselves: Are not these men Galileans? Yet they speak to us in OUR own tounges. Therefore, the Gift of Tounges is NOT speaking in strange, unknown languages, BUT, it is speaking in languages that exist so that others may hear and understand the Good Word. I wanted to speak in tongues, and in a matter of months, I did. Did I have some kind of special experince, of course, everybody that I know of that has received what is called "The Baptism of the Holy Spirit" has had one. Sorry to say, I wish I hadden't. All I have seen tongues do is make people and congregations turn inward and get "Superior" attitudes to those around them. Then as of nessessity, the emphisis of the pastor and the people shifts to the Holy Spirit over and above Jesus Christ himself I was in among them and I thank God that I no longer am. My relationship with Jesus Christ has exponentially increased since I have stopped speaking in tongues and renewed my simple faith in Jesus and the finished work of the cross. Don't leave the simplicity that is in Christ. Daave