anti-hillbilly

Agreed. I read that the ana-baptists started this and they at first set the "age of accountability" at 20. They kept lowering it as the years went by though.

Protestants killed thousands too. Protestant, Catholic, when you get right down to the nitty-gritty all christianity is Catholic. Without the Catholic church those of us living today would probably of never even heard of Christianity or Jesus. Their methods for evangelizing the world were brutal but very effective. I'm sure our ancestors witnessed the brutality and murder of millions and were "motivated" to abandon their pagan beliefs and convert due to this and not because of some "ephipany" that christianity is the one true religion (just being honest). That's just the way it is and was. Let's just not let it happen again; the best way is to keep church and state separate.

I don't have to think about this one! I love my son dearly but yes, I am angry with him at the moment and don't want to be around him. (He suffers from bipolar and when depressed can be really cruel and difficult to live with). I have to deal with my anger somehow. Mostly I keep out his way until I feel calmer! I can relate, my father is bi-polar and even now after all these years, though I love him dearly and like talking to him on the telephone, I do not want to be around him. I can't relax because I never know if we're going to have a great time or if he's gonna act weird, scary or just start pick, pick, picking at people until he starts a fight. Luckily I live 1000 miles away from my parents but I feel angry sometimes because I'd like to return to the same area but don't because of him.

I agree with Marnie. You go girl! Glad to see somebody with some common sense. I have a book by David Wilkerson; he's a doom and gloomer to the max. IMO David WANTS America to be punished severely by God Almighty.

Welcome Luke, Do Buddists believe in reincarnation?

As quickly as I can: BUTERO: Again, I would ask why your husband believes the stories about Darwin's daughter and the supposed witnesses? How does he know his source of information is reliable? Does he have the newspaper clipping? I think he did locate the newspaper clipping. I'm sure if you do a search on the subject you can get more information. At the same time, I feel it is better to let people decide for themselves rather than telling them stories to scare them away from it. I agree. As for who wrote the gospels, you are claiming that these books were written by unknown authors based on what? How do you know the people making these claims are telling the truth? Your husband is believing that based on faith in whoever told him it was the case. What if they are wrong or lying to him, just like people may have lied over Darwin's conversion. The same can be said about the claims about books being destroyed and the motives. Where is the proof that is true? Even if it is, it doesn't prove the lack of truth found in the accepted text. It only shows that there are some who don't have faith in other's ability to tell the true from the false so they tried to protect them through wrong means. But Butero, he would take every single question you asked there, and tell you to turn it around and apply it to the Bible; that's what he did. You can pretty much verify the Darwin deathbed thing, the Scottish girl having a deathbed halluctination thing [dispensationalism] or that Joseph Smith was unable to provide the gold plates that he says the angel Maroni gave him.....and all those things happened in the past 200 yrs and yet millions of people believe at least one or two of them to be true. Lack of non-biblical verification and corroborration is just another thing that was a major crisis in his belief. -- He also didn't like that there's no "original" documents; why didn't God divinely preserve them he asked? As for authorship, I verified that myself. There's no proof nor do the gospel writers identify themselves except for maybe Luke. They're not in the bible in the order they were written either. If you dig around a bit you'll find that their names are based on "Catholic tradition". BUTERO: I said that God did not want us to serve him like a programed robot. The fact that people that claimed to be followers of Jesus did things in a wrong manner, has no effect on the plan of God. I agree; I think it's a free gift. BUT, it was spread by force and we can't deny that; that's just historical fact and just another crisis of faith for some people. What's wrong with my son saying he thought that was stupid? I think they said women were more unclean after having a baby girl than a baby boy because it was a patriarchial society. Men were more highly valued than women.

It does sound complicated; very complicated. I think my husband gave a similarily complicated answer to my son at the time, to which he replied: "That's stupid". That was the end of that discussion. As for the Darwin thing I would believe the daughter over some Christian lady who wasn't there. I think my husband said there were other witnesses at Darwin's death to substaniate what the daughter said too. I think the daughter had publically refuted the bogus claim in newpapers shortly after it happened. You can see where the lady that started this rumor would have had an agenda; pretty much like you being diverted away from the book of Mormon or the Apocrypha. -- My husband touched on the Apocrypha too saying that if these Catholics accepted the Apocrypha and the cannonized bible we have now how can we say they were "divinely inspired by the canon" but wrong about the Apocrypha? Wouldn't they have been divinely inspired about the Apocrypha too? He was also perturbed that they assigned "names" of authorship to the gospel accounts; he'd always thought Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrote them [so did I] but he said they were authored annonymously by "God only knows who". He remarked that for all we know it could have been a "Jim Jones" or "David Koresh" type person that wrote them and not a "Billy Graham" or a "Pope John Paul" type person. He also said the early church tried to destroy all those writings that disagree with the "choices" they'd voted on, taking away people's opportunity to hear opposing views and make up their own mind. He also thinks they tampered with the cannon and that's why there are no "originals" to be found. He thinks [ I don't know where he got this one from ] they made changes as they needed to to bloster the Catholic version of Christianity and destroyed the copies that were made earlier to "cover their deception". Something else I seem to recall our talking about: When God created man, he wanted us to serve him, but he didn't want us to do so by compulsion like a programed robot. My husband said that when you examine the history of Christianity it was spread by the sword, same as the Muslim religion and that the Crusaders not only killed the pagans who refused to submit as well as the Muslims later on, but went on to kill the Christians in Constantinople and sack their city looting it of it's massive wealth. He basically said that because of terror and murder the entire western civilization has been trained like a bunch of monkies to believe Christianity....not because, as we're taught, it is the "one true religion". I know he's right about "spread by terror" part so I didn't know how to respond. How would you explain that away if you were talking to him? He's pretty P.O.ed to put it delicately; I think I will not bring this up with him. As we talk I'm remembering more and more that he and I have discussed over the past two or three years. One more quick kid question: "If God wants people to be fruitful and multiply then why are women dirty after having a baby and why are they dirtier after having a baby girl than after having a baby boy." "Were you dirty for 7 days after having me?" I'm gonna have to get off of here now for real. My house looks like a pig sty right now and with it being a weekend I can't hang around. I don't think hubby would be too happy if he wandered by the computer and saw us talking about him. I'd like to have a nice, peaceful weekend. One last thing before I go - Are you a dispensationalist Butero?

Just saw this....I remember hubby talking about this one: Since they are willing to believe in evolution, based on unproven ideas, ones even Darwin recanted before his death, why should someone have to have answers to every question an atheist throws at them to believe in God? My husband had heard that on a Christian radio station and got very excited, but when he checked it out he found out that it isn't true, it's a lie and was exposed as a lie shortly after that story got circulated. He was disgusted about that and said that Christians aren't suppose to be "pumping out" lies like that. He said Darwin did not recant on his deathbed and that his daughter said so because she was there with him when he died. He said these "preachers" either know that and are lying deliberately, or they are repeating the lie without knowing it is a lie.

We won't know that till I see what the questions are. So far, all I have seen is a question over how the Biblical cannon came about. There is nothing hard to answer in that. The books already existed. All this group did was to seek to find out which ones were accepted by the church as authoritative, and put them together in one book. It is hard for me to believe that this would cause anyone to lose their faith. It is also surprising that there is anyone that has been in church for any length of time that didn't already know this. I doubt there is anything he could ask that I couldn't answer, or someone here at Worthy couldn't answer. That doesn't mean he would accept what we say, but that is another matter entirely. Atheists continually give answers to how we came to be, but I as a Christian, don't accept their answers either. That was just one "problem" Butero. You'd be surprised at how many people don't know where the Bible came from. Most people have no idea that it was basically the Catholics who made that determination. None of my husband's family, down south, knew because I remember him asking them. Perhaps instead of asking him to talk here I could just post some questions that I remember him asking. Maybe I'll throw in a couple of comments and questions my 14 yr old has too. Do you know about the foreskin one? Here's a biggie from Hubby: Why does the Creator of the Universe need innocent human blood? God's ways are suppose to be different than man's ways but human sacrifice was something that barbaric people did in a lot of tribes and cultures. Don't know if I can spend all day on here agian today [i'm getting so far behind but when I get on here it becomes addictive]. Should we start a new thread of just stay on this one? I edited this to correct a spelling error; no content changed.

My heart goes out to you, anti-hillbilly. What a burden you must be bearing, not understanding what has happened in your husband. Remember, though, that even the devil knows scripture. We need to really be praying for your husband's salvation, regardless of his past beliefs--- he is denying Christ, lost. I will pray about him. Thanks FA, I don't think my husband is "the devil" but I understand what you were trying to say I think. In that vein I have to say that personally I think a lot of "devils" are running the Christian heirchy these days; a lot of them on t.v. and radio and they love to pound a bible with their fist and quote scripture. They say it's all innerrant; not to add to or take away; then do exactly that, twisting the scriptures to suit their own political purposes while convincing the crowd that it's what God wants; becoming multi-millionnaires in the process. -- This is just one of the reasons I don't want my 14 yr old getting ambushed by an evangelical youth pastor at school, behind my back. [i'd brought this up in another thread] and I don't want him getting sucked into one of those dispensationalist churches which seem to be growing in numbers and might. Maybe this whole thing is God's way of pulling my husband "out of that". Time will tell, but I have hope and I'm praying every day.

khalou, have you been talking to my husband? Yes he would be extremely angry if anyone tried to tell him he didn't know the bible or that he must not have really been saved. That seems to be the "pat" responses when people find out his "dirty little secret". He knows the Bible better than anyone I've known except for one or two ministers. He used to scold me for being so "laid back" about it. Now he's the atheist.

Okay, his questions are serious for the most part; though he gets embarrassed sometimes asking. He's puzzled about all the "foreskin" talk in the OT. He asked why God was so obsessed with foreskins. That's just one really "odd" one that comes to mind. Certainly not a question that had ever crossed my mine. Some of the other things have been mentioned by Silent Prayer. But there've been other questions that I can't remember right now.

There really aren't a lot of things I can think of in the Bible that should generate "x-rated" questions. That's what I used to think too LOL, but he found some [must be the age, puberty and all]. But these questions really belong on another thread on another day. I gotta start supper now. Have a good one!

Anti-Hillbilly, as you know, I am a Bible literalist. I would be more than happy to attempt to answer the questions your husband has in relation to the scriptures. I have read the Bible through more than a dozen times, and have found that the so-called errors are not errors at all, but misunderstandings. I would hate for your husband to lose his place in heaven because he simply misunderstood something in the Bible and thought it was a mistake. Why not try this? Invite him to join Worthy Boards as a non-believer. Then allow him to post his own questions about the Bible in the apologetics section, and allow the members here to try to answer them? He really has nothing to lose. He already has lost his faith, so the worst thing that would happen is he would continue to disbelieve. I doubt that any of the questions that kept popping into his mind are unique, so I wouldn't worry too much that it will cause anyone here to suddenly become a non-believer. Thank you Butero. I think that is a good suggestion but I don't know if he would. He used to post at a couple of Christian websites when he was still a believer. He got very frustrated when he was "booted" off of one board just for asking a few things and was accused of being an atheist posing as a believer at another [ he wasn't at that time, he was just trying to get satisfactory answers ]. I have to approach this delicately though, I feel like I need to give him some time. If he came on here now I'm afraid he'd just cause trouble and be asked to leave. I will keep it in mind though and if the right time presents itself (God willing) I'll bring it up. -- It means a lot to me that you would offer since you and I don't often agree on things. I think my minister could do wonders for him; he went to college in Kentucky and was ordained in Knoxville Tenn. so they have that "southern thing" in common and I think he'd be able to relate pretty well, coming from a similar background and all. My husband has met him and likes him very much but by the time my husband figured out that Prebysterians aren't hellbound in a handbasket he'd already become a non-believer. OK Anti-Hillbilly. You know his condition better than I do. One thing you mentioned however is that your husband was booted off one of the boards for asking questions, that he was accused of being an atheist. Here he wouldn't have to pretend to be a Christian. Atheists are welcome to post in the outer court area. By the way, how long ago was it that your husband decided he was an atheist? I could be wrong, but I would imagine that your husband likely heard someone attacking the Bible, and he began to listen to what they were saying. Over time, those seeds of doubt took root. If a person doesn't have a strong understanding of the Bible, things often appear to be contradictory, when in reality they are not. I would not give up on your husband, because I believe if he could be persuaded to become an unbeliever, there is a good chance he can be brought back to the Lord if his objections can be answered to his satisfaction. I don't claim I can do that, but with the help of the Lord, and the many good folks here at WB, I would sure be willing to give it a try. It's been less than a year. He wasn't listening to non-believers or atheists; he'd have thought that was "satanic" [he thought Satan was hiding behind every rock and tree ready to pounce at any moment], our now 14 yr old was asking some blunt questions when he was in a fundamentalist Christian kindergarden; he's always asked pointed questions; maybe that had something to do with it because this didn't just happen overnight even though it is still a shock. -- No, it had to do with the bible (the OT in particular) and then he wanted to know how we got the bible and he started reading about Christian history (which was pretty bloody) and how the Bible was cannonized etc.; how dispensationalism came about in the 1800s etc. He thought that the NT was written, "on the scene" and when he found out it wasn't he was very quiet for several days. I thought everybody knew that the bible wasn't written or canonized until decades and centuries later...respectively so that's no "big deal" to me although I guess for him it's was like having a rug pulled out from under you. Do you think I should stop my 14 yr old from reading the OT? For years I would only let him read a Children's Bible version of the OT but now that he's gotten older he's reading the real thing and starting to zero in on some bizarre things in there. He was asking me a lot of X-rated questions relating to those scriptures one day and I don't know if he should be reading it at all especially with what has happened with my husband.

We always, and still do, have Sunday school with the children being separated by age and of course grown-up Sunday school. Then, when Sunday School ends everyone goes into the santuary for worship. I think that way works out the best for everybody.

If you'll do the driving I'll have a beer with mine.

Anti-Hillbilly, as you know, I am a Bible literalist. I would be more than happy to attempt to answer the questions your husband has in relation to the scriptures. I have read the Bible through more than a dozen times, and have found that the so-called errors are not errors at all, but misunderstandings. I would hate for your husband to lose his place in heaven because he simply misunderstood something in the Bible and thought it was a mistake. Why not try this? Invite him to join Worthy Boards as a non-believer. Then allow him to post his own questions about the Bible in the apologetics section, and allow the members here to try to answer them? He really has nothing to lose. He already has lost his faith, so the worst thing that would happen is he would continue to disbelieve. I doubt that any of the questions that kept popping into his mind are unique, so I wouldn't worry too much that it will cause anyone here to suddenly become a non-believer. Thank you Butero. I think that is a good suggestion but I don't know if he would. He used to post at a couple of Christian websites when he was still a believer. He got very frustrated when he was "booted" off of one board just for asking a few things and was accused of being an atheist posing as a believer at another [ he wasn't at that time, he was just trying to get satisfactory answers ]. I have to approach this delicately though, I feel like I need to give him some time. If he came on here now I'm afraid he'd just cause trouble and be asked to leave. I will keep it in mind though and if the right time presents itself (God willing) I'll bring it up. -- It means a lot to me that you would offer since you and I don't often agree on things. I think my minister could do wonders for him; he went to college in Kentucky and was ordained in Knoxville Tenn. so they have that "southern thing" in common and I think he'd be able to relate pretty well, coming from a similar background and all. My husband has met him and likes him very much but by the time my husband figured out that Prebysterians aren't hellbound in a handbasket he'd already become a non-believer.

Thank you dear. Sorry to pull this thread off topic. But "copycat savior" myths are one of the things that played a part in this situation.

How can a true beleiver turn from God? It was a number of things but at the heart of were two things, he was an innerrant, bible believer and he is honest to a fault. To put it in a nutshell he painted himself in a corner with the Bible. I could make a list of questions that kept popping into his mind as he read the bible over and over and over but I won't because at this forum there are a lot of "innerrantists" and I wouldn't want to cause anyone to stumble the way he did. I've always been a liberal Christian; I'm not a bible innerrancy person so these questions didn't "throw" me the way they did him. He started spending a lot of time at Jewish websites asking questions right before he totally deconverted. I think those Left Behind books started the initial "unraveling" and the Jewish forums just finished it for him. -- I've prayed and tried to get him to attend my church [Prebysterian] and he won't do it. I think he's mad because he feels like he's been somehow "tricked". I told him I thought he was mad at God and he said he's not mad at God cause there isn't a God to be mad at; that people created God. I've just dropped it since then and thought it might be better to give him some time to "chill out" and regroup. I did ask him to keep his newfound atheism to himself and not be spouting off to the kids about it and he has, so far, done that for me. He's not dead yet so it's never too late. All prayers would be appreciated.

Consider the parents of each of the 3 Defendants. How do you think they may feel that the Plaintiff has exercised her Civil Rights to petition our government for a redress of her grievances, yet their sons can't exercise their Civil Rights? Let me tell you if you don't already know. They feel betrayed by the DA and are miserable suffering the nightmare of a lifetime. One day it may be your dear son or grandson standing trial. Do you wish for his Civil Rights to be deprived to petition our government for a redress of grievances, same as the Duke lacrosse team players? Think about it and let me hear your opinion. It may save the career of three young men. I think it's awful. I wonder how many people are sitting in prison for rapes they did not commit. I have empathy for women, I think women have been systematically mistreated for centuries and many rapists and abusers have gone unpunished BUT it's equally unjust for an innocent man to be accused by a lying woman. With science we are now in an era where real proof is possible and these boys, imo, have been proven innocent by both the DNA and by statements made by the other young woman. I have 3 sons, I can only imagine the anger and sense of injustice these young men and their parents feel. EVERYONE, male or female regardless of race is suppose to have civil rights in this country. That includes white boys too.

I am so sorry to hear that - When I hear things like that, I alsways have to wonder, were they ever truly saved? I can't help but think of the parrable about the farmer who sows his seed... "...And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow; And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up: Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them: But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold." [Matthew 13:3-8 - KJV] So sad indeed. It is sad but people always ask what you asked, were they truly saved? The answer is Yes, he was truly saved. He took the bible very seriously, he took the afterlife very seriously, he approached God very seriously. He was not lukewarm; that's for sure.

My husband was a devout, true blue, born again, fundamentalist for almost half a century. He is now an atheist and I'm still in shock; didn't see that coming at all. It happens people.

So....hmmm, bringing the original post back into the mix; you are opposed to Islamic teaching in school but it's okay if evangelicals come in and promote their version of the gospel .....even if other non-fundamentalist/evangelical Christians oppose it? Where's the freedom in that? What is democratic about that? Your way or no way? That is not a "free-gift"; that is not freedom of religion; that is religous tryanny! I don't think it's your place or this pastor's place to decide that these school children are "lost" as you put it [if you're referring to these school children]. This country is predominately Christian and the Christian message is widely available, for free, on a daily basis (t.v. radio, print, church etc). Whether it's the Muslims or Evangelicals, going into the schools behind parents back, to prey on vunerable children is just wrong and it undermines parental authority.

I have explained myself. We don't celebrate "gay heritage" month in our schools. He can offer his invitation on his own time; my child's time at school is his time to learn and associate with his friends. He has church, vacation bible school and we used to have a vibrant youth group until the mega-church E-Free's, with their mega bucks, whittled the other youths groups down to a trickle via the public school system. In our case the public school is endorsing one particular church. On their groups web site they even say this: Our goal is to help the youth in South Central (state) establish a personal relationship with Jesus Christ!! If not us, now, then who and when? I can answer that: We the parents; our chosen minister; our chosen church with it's own Sunday School teachers. I have to wonder if 10 years down the road will we find out that these children who have left with him been learning about Christ or has something else been going on? This situation poses a physical danger to the children and it puts that youth minister in a bad situation if a child decides to "lie" as people sometimes do. I suspect if I'd said it was a Scientologist or a Muslim doing this your response would be much, much different. No matter the belief system, this type of situation is inexcusable in my opinion and he is opening himself and the school system up to a potential lawsuit which will cost the taxpayers. If he wants kids to leave with him he should make arrangements with the parents of those children and wait for them to walk to his car........not stalk the hallways and lunchline (that is the wrong way to go about things). It is also interesting to note that only two of the children will leave with him; several of the other children who attend this Free-Evangelical church will not go and my child has said a couple of them have made comments about it being "weird".

I'm not in favor of tax exempt status for any organization, religious or secular; it's all income for the organization. Some churches "opt out" of the 501c3 exemption. I'm not against displaying the Cross; we can do that within legal guidelines; that's our right and priviledge. We have lots and lots of places to do so. I'm a Christian and an American Citizen. You didn't address the problem I mentioned in our local schools; nor the other things I mentioned. Would you care to do that now instead of attempting to insult me personally or imply that because I'm not "your kind" of Christian that I'm not one at all? [edit] Pardon me, you did "touch" on the problem; sounds like you're looking for a way to justify it. This minister uses his position to gain access to the children during school hours. He asks the kids (the boys) to leave the lunch line and go to lunch with him off campus. Bottom line - it's dangerous and he shouldn't be in there at lunch to begin with; we parents aren't allowed to do this so why is a stranger allowed to? Sometimes bad people use religion to get access to children. I'm not saying this guy is bad, but what if he is and why is he allowed to do this? You can bet if it were a Catholic priest or a Muslim cleric doing this it'd be stopped immediately. AND IT SHOULD BE. I've told my child not to leave that building with anyone, EVER. btw - Implying that one Christian isn't a "true" Christian, or not the "right kind of Christian" because they disagree with another Christian [with political power] goes to the heart of why we have the establishment clause.........not because of a handful of atheists or Muslims or Scientologists etc. I personally feel much more threatened by some other Christians....especially these days.