jackie d

Can you show me where Christ forces people to worship Him? jackie stated in post #13 I cannot show you that..please read what I quoted above...What I can tell you though is that those who live outside of the camp do NOT know Christ for they are deceived as usual when Satan is loosed one last time. And if Christ rules with rod of iron then it would only make sense that those who live outside of the camp do NOT know Him and would hate the fact that He rules in such a way. After all Satan does manage to incite a REBELLION. Why do people ususally rebel, because they are forced into things they don't want to do, even if it is good for them. But hey, like I said this is simply summation of what logic tells me. If you have a better explanation man, please share it.

Mark 13:18 And pray that your flight may not be in winter. 19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be. 20 And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect

this afternoon I took a nap after reading the last three chapters of the book of Revelation. I was struck by the things that would cause people to burn for eternity. Being a liar and living the lives of lies will put someone into the firey lake. This struck me and I prayed on it..then I went to sleep. In my dream I watched as people moved about doing different things, talked to different people and so on. Everything in the dream started out as black and white. No grey, no color. As the dream progressed I noticed that there were things that were colored. The colors were bright yellows, oranges, greens and browns. Now not everything turned to color, some things remained black and white. I was perplexed by this. Then the Lord spoke to me and said..the Truth is black and white..no grey..no color. Black and white. But as people embelish the truth, by telling a lie or living a lie they become beautifully colored. They become colored in such brightness in order to detract from the ugliness of the lie. By the time this dream ended nearly everything was beautifully colored.

Agreed, however...we cannot forget that when Christ told the disciples that He must leave them to die, then return for a time and then go where they cannot go, He also told them that one would come in His stead. Holy Spirit would come and dwell within them and that Holy Spirit would be as in John 14:26 (New King James Version) But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. So, to say that we can't be given the truth on every matter if we truly seek Truth is not true. As Christ said the Holy Spirit will teach you ALL things. Let me ask you this John, I have had a vision of my own beheading. Does this mean that I am not right with the Lord right now and will be left behind? Blessings

I acknowledge what you have just said John...I would like to know what you feel about possibly teaching others wrongly. Does this concern you? Being prepared should be a given. Christ is coming, we are to keep our lamps oiled and lit. Those who don't well they wouldn't make it rapture or not anyhow so what does that matter? What I want to know from you is how do you feel about the possibility that you are leading others in a false teaching? John said "One thing I want to add. Nobody really knows if they will be strong enought to stand during the tribulation till they get there. Even if you think you are able to make it now, you may fall when the true testing time occurs. That could be the case with me as well. The Bible warns us to be careful because when we think we stand, we should take heed lest we fall." Never in any of my comments did I say that I stand. What I did say is that I am prepared to endure. That is all I said. Never have you seen me say that I pass that test because I have not been tested yet. I will say however that I have faith that the Lord will keep in my heart and in my mind that the only place I belong is with Him, serving Him and fighting for Him.

I suppose you could look at it and use that type of logic Butero but as you said that would really not be the case with me. No, it does matter what we believe..the theory of rapture has become such a controversial matter that it in itself causes division. We as Christians are to acknowledge the Truth and dispell lies. Where the heresy comes in is how people are taking scripture and using it to the advantage of this particular theory dragging new believers into it.... Okay let me ask you this. You take on a new Christian and mentor them. During this mentoring the conversation of heaven comes up and your pupil asks you about the end times. Do you point to the scriptures written about those times and answer him simply by reading to him what Christ has said and leave it at that? Or do you then go on to tell him about this rapture that you are sure is going to come, not because Christ clearly paints the picture of a rapture but because scripture may or may not allude to it? What happens to this young Christian? What happens to you if you are teaching wrong? I believe that we all pay the price for not teaching truth to the new Christian...so yes it matters greatly. This is where I am having the most difficulty with this teaching..the disciples ask specific questions about how will we know when we are near the end. Christ gives specific answers but manages to leave out clear specific meaning of rapture or no? I don't think so. Christ spoke to the disciples one day regarding His death and resurrection. He stated "I am going to my Father and I am helping Him to prepare a mansion with many rooms for you. This is so because I say it is so, if it were not so I would tell you." Clear and plain explanation and description....He isn't the God of confusion, yet many are confused about this very subject. And I believe that they are confused about this subject because it is man made and not God made. Now of course we come back to I believe what I believe and you believe what you believe. Am I any worse for wear if I believe that I will be here until my head is either taken or have the gumption to endure to the end and am caught up in the air with Him at His return? I don't think so. I am not teaching anything that isn't clearly spelled out in scripture. Are you any worse for wear should you maintain the belief that you will be rescued by Him prior to "tribulation" that falls on the world, should you be teaching this to others and it is in fact not true? Better yet are any worse for wear not being prepared to endure to the end because you spend your time just waiting for Him to catch you up in the air? When we are prepared for the worse case scenario we are not caught off guard. Our chins are set to take it no matter what..just as Christ knew that the cup of tribulation He would endure would not be taken from Him. He knew He had to do it and did not look for an escape route, even when He asked the Father to remove the cup, He backed and said "your will be done, not mine" I truly feel that those who have invited the pre-trib rapture theory into bed with them are looking for an escape route because deep down they know what is coming is too much to bare. IMHO God Bless John

Okay, I have had it...the teachings that are pouring out onto the pages of this thread are heresy. Amd I am not speaking of the ones you have quoted Christopher John regarding the repentance of the nation of Israel or the sealing of the 144,000...just so you know. I am however meaning anything that you or anyone else has used in this thread to support a rapture theory. Christ may be addressing the Jews at the moment He is speaking but all scripture applies to all man that believe in Him! That is why He said to go out and teach all nations the gospel. He didn't say to them only tell these things to the Jews, the Gentiles live under different law than you. No...ALL MAN, ALL NATIONS. In fact in the Gospel of Luke, he expressly uses the same teachings that Christ gave to them that Matthew, Mark and John used, the same events and all...he took them and used these same events to teach the Gentiles...and at no time does Luke say, but don't listen to this part because it pertains only to the Jewish nations. There is only going to be one event of being caught up and that will be at the 2nd coming of Christ before His millennial reign...none other. Those who will live in the camp of the saints and the beloved city after His second coming are the saints who DO NOT sell themselves to Satan by taking his mark in order to save their lives, these that have the ability to endure to the end. Or were martyred because of their refusal to take the mark when the Anti-Christ makes his presence to the world known. Many will die for their refusal. The others in this camp of the saints and the beloved city are the 144,000 sealed Jews that God places under His protection during the days of the Anti-Christ. More likely than not it will be the pre-trib rapture theory that the Anti-Christ uses to his advantage to show people who believe in the "rapture" that they were correct and they are now serving the messiah. When in fact the saints that are missing are those who lost their heads because they refused his mark. By this time those who have noted the disappearance of many of the saints will be in awe and disappointed that they didn't go during the first rapture, but hey who's to worry right...there is another yet to come!!! Pee-eww! Sorry folks if I have come on a little strong but the one thing that is lacking in all of these false teachings is logic! And God is logic. He gives us logical minds in order to think things through and in order to recognize the difference between true discernment of leadings by the Holy Spirit and flat out lies to take the focus off of God and HIS TRUE word that have caused so many to pin their hopes on false teachings. I don't get it! Are there so many "Christians" too weak kneed to stand the tests of tribulation that they would rather give in to this hyped up fairy tale than to learn how to stand and fight for Christ even at the risk of loosing our heads? God bless all of you in your beliefs, I pray for each and everyone who is of a belief that there will be a pre-trib rapture. Or any other rapture for that matter unless it happens to be the time of being caught up in the air with Christ at His 2nd coming. And I pray for those who separate the word to mean different things for different nations... And if I have offended and made you guys mad, I won't take it back..so I guess I will simply have to live with it. But I will tell you that I have said these things out of extreme compassion and love for you. Blessings

Okay...lets take a look at who lives outside of the camp. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them." They are the ones who have NOT lived in the beloved city among the camp of the saints. They live lives outside of it. Pretty normal "civilized" lives for this time to come. Satan is not running amok among the people as he is today causing so many problems. These people have one ruler, Christ...who "rules with an iron fist" these people outside of the camp do not KNOW Christ they pay homage out of duty and force only. Not out of love. So picture Satan coming along after all of these years of people being under such a ruling as Christ's and now have a smooth talking guy that tells them they can follow him and they will never have to live such hard lives under such a hard ruler anymore..they form a rebellion...a very large number of people to come and destroy the KING and His saints and to take over the beloved city. And in following Satan to this rebellion once they have taken over this city and destroyed these people who follow such a cruel King as Christ then they will live in splendor in and around the beloved city. These people go along with Satan and they have been deceived they are the ones who are deceived. Not any one inside the beloved city and the camp of the saints are deceived for these reasons: 1. They already know who Satan is and turned him away before..these people have been living with Christ for the past 1,000 yrs. A wonderful peaceful life. They have been resurrected or taken up out of Satan's grasp during the days of 7 yr tribulation. 2. They have known the entire 1,000 yrs the details of what is to come at the end of that 1,000 yrs. Including the fact that it is coming. God will consume these rebellious people with fire before they have the ability to make any form of influence on anyone inside the camp and the beloved city. So, the answer to the question if those inside the camp can be deceived, would be no. If indeed this is how it will be. ***Note to any and all who read any of the posts I have placed on this topic*** what has been written by me is not a statement that I believe all of what I have written is fact. But through examination of the verses in question have simply formulated what seems logical according to me from my personal study of events leading up to these verses and the ones in question.. If that is so....souldn't you think that some of us might go out and continue teaching all these people?? I don't want anyone to perish.... I have a testimony...and Hell is a horrible place!! I didn't get the light at the end of the tunnel experience like so many. I didn't go to an altar or have a salvation call at a church. I was saved by God's great mercy in my bedroom when I had partied too much and accidentally over-dosed. HELL is a real place....... Do you think that we can go in and out and preach like on earth as we do now?? Is there evidence in the bible about your thoughts on the camps?? I just need confidence in what this all means. God bless..... and thanks If Satan is not loose to work his evil on the earth during these thousand years and Christ reigns, I would imagine that there will be those who come to love Him as we do and those who do not because He rules with an iron fist. Will those who exist in the camp of the saints and the beloved city go about the world preaching the good news, I do not know. I do believe however that they will be enforcers of Christ's laws. They will sit in judgement of those who dwell on the earth Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. It is with these next verses that I believe that those who live on earth at that time will also have the opportunity to have salvation.....ALL will be under judgement and their names WILL be in one book or the other. They will be judged according to their works, by the things that were written in the books Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[c] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[d] 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. you asked "is there evidence in the bible about your thoughts on the camps?" The camp I spoke of is the camp of the saints and the beloved city cited in verse 9 of Revelation 20. I will study other areas of the bible and get any scripture to you that would further describe this particular "camp". I have read them before but do not remember where. And by the way, you are not alone in your story of salvation. I too was much like you and how Christ finally impacted my life and my desire for better.

Okay...lets take a look at who lives outside of the camp. They are the ones who have NOT lived in the beloved city among the camp of the saints. They live lives outside of it. Pretty normal "civilized" lives for this time to come. Satan is not running amok among the people as he is today causing so many problems. These people have one ruler, Christ...who "rules with an iron fist" these people outside of the camp do not KNOW Christ they pay homage out of duty and force only. Not out of love. So picture Satan coming along after all of these years of people being under such a ruling as Christ's and now have a smooth talking guy that tells them they can follow him and they will never have to live such hard lives under such a hard ruler anymore..they form a rebellion...a very large number of people to come and destroy the KING and His saints and to take over the beloved city. And in following Satan to this rebellion once they have taken over this city and destroyed these people who follow such a cruel King as Christ then they will live in splendor in and around the beloved city. These people go along with Satan and they have been deceived they are the ones who are deceived. Not any one inside the beloved city and the camp of the saints are deceived for these reasons: 1. They already know who Satan is and turned him away before..these people have been living with Christ for the past 1,000 yrs. A wonderful peaceful life. They have been resurrected or taken up out of Satan's grasp during the days of 7 yr tribulation. 2. They have known the entire 1,000 yrs the details of what is to come at the end of that 1,000 yrs. Including the fact that it is coming. God will consume these rebellious people with fire before they have the ability to make any form of influence on anyone inside the camp and the beloved city. So, the answer to the question if those inside the camp can be deceived, would be no. If indeed this is how it will be. ***Note to any and all who read any of the posts I have placed on this topic*** what has been written by me is not a statement that I believe all of what I have written is fact. But through examination of the verses in question have simply formulated what seems logical according to me from my personal study of events leading up to these verses and the ones in question..

Revelations 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a[a] thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. Satanic Rebellion Crushed 7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever *************************************************************************** My understanding of those that are deceived are those who live outside of the camp of the Saints and the beloved city. During the time of the thousand year reign Christ will rule with an iron fist. So those who live outside of the camp are made to pay homage to Him. They are made to come to the temple once a year with sacrifice. They however, do not necessarily have a salvational relationship with Him but are merely going through the motions because of His reign and ruling. These are the ones who can be deceived. Those who live in the camp of the Saints and the beloved city will not be deceived because they know with whom they dwell. They that live in the camp were either resurrected after beheadings for refusal to take the mark, the 144,000 who were sealed and hidden in safety during "Tribulation" and the saints still living at the time of Christs 2nd coming. But back to those who will be deceived. These people who are deceived have lived in the world. Working, marrying, having children and living lives very similar to what we live today. The exception is that Satan is not working in the world during that time. When Satan is loosed for his final round before being thrown into the fire, he will create a rebellion among the people of the world and that rebellion will come to surround the camp of the saints and the beloved city. The people who became part of this rebellion have been deceived. And this short lived rebellion will be ended by fire coming out of the heavens and consuming them. After this rebellion and the destruction of it. Will then follow the final judgement when the books are opened and Satan is done away with eternally. It is then that the old heaven and old earth pass away and the new take their place.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a[a] thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. No, they cannot be for those who lived the first resurrection will not suffer a second death..those who are deceived must be those who choose Satan before first resurrection, their deception must be complete at the end of the thousand year reign and they are the millions that surround the "camp of the saints and the beloved city" those that chose Satan and the mark will then suffer the second death. They will burn for eternity.. So no, they could not be any of us because the second death has no power over us for we have experienced the first resurrection

I am wondering if they (the deceived) were still waiting for the messiah? I wonder if they are deceived completely when Satan is loosed and come to believe that he IS their savior to the point of willingness to battle for Satan one last time before they are cast into hell for eternity? compelling questions...I don't have an answer to them.. share your thoughts with me

i guess... it's okay to find humor in things. God most certainly has a sense of humor... Yeah, he made ME... and the platypus.... and the Ugli fruit and that plant that smells like rotten meat... throw me into the mix and we have a barrell of laughs

she has been here reading all evening..who knows maybe she just needs a little attention..

EEk, it is kinda funny. And I guess you are saying it with your tongue firmly planted in your cheek, but is is also kind of scary. By the same token we shouldn't become too attached to any family members or friends. It is a horrifying thought that I may not see my husband again. What about the children? Can they expect to see their parents? That would be BOTH spouses (or is the plural "spice")? Now it is horrifying but when we are there..it will not be. smiles

i guess... it's okay to find humor in things. God most certainly has a sense of humor...

PLEASE tell me you're being sarcastic. your response is so ANTI BIBLICAL it isn't even funny. "That is why we should not be very attached to our spouses. We are only meant to use one another for procreation" i find this part hilarious!! lol...LOL

probably not..but when we are there our only focus will be on God and our thoughts will not be on anything else but eternal worship of the One who created all.. cute..

Always obey God period. If man does not agree with what God has set in another persons life. So what, they'll get over it. Myself, I never want to have to answer to God for putting the opinion and feelings of man over the leadings of God to do something for Him..regardless of what happens to the other person. We are told that unless we are willing to leave all behind to follow Him we are not worthy of His Kingdom. Let the people who have a problem with what God is doing, deal with it themselves. Follow as the Lord leads.

Why don't you think that shalom is ultimately His will? We are never told to pray for the judgement of Israel. If you want peace here then pray for peace there. Absolutely I do Yod...however Christ said He came not to bring peace but the sword..through His word the sword will divide, cause war and kill so that peace will come. I do not pray for the judgement of anyone. I pray for the will of the Father to be done. Which is what I have been instructed to do through Christ's example. blessings

Peace CJ And because of Matthew 24:6 I would not pray for peace but the will of our Father.

Greetings, For as many as are led by the Spirit of Elohim, they are the sons of Elohim. Led, that is the operative word, not pushed and certainly not driven, led. Slaves are pushed or driven and because they know no difference they in turn push others. Have you ever marvelled at those who lead in the buildings they call church, why it seems they are out of their depth? Blind leaders of the blind, crossing sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him two fold more the child of hell than yourselves. Strong words? To strong? Words of warning, its well worth doing a study on proselytes, with reference to how they reacted to the sound of the evangel in the early Eclessia, they hated it because they had relied on their works and the law. If your being led of the Lord follow, if it

Do what the Lord leads you to do and stop listening to what people think you should do..most people will lead you down a wrong path everytime.