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JDJ Do you really think these things could be real? What would be the purpose?

Wisdom, The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse by Jeff VanVonderen We read the other one first even though it was written second, because it showed up in the mail first. Funny how that happened because it is the one we needed first, and this book is more technical.

"One of the most hypocritical times of the week starts (in most regions) between 8am - 1pm. It is when most professed Christians attend church on Sundays. What I am about to say may be offensive to some of you, so brace yourselves. Never the less, it is something we all duck out of discussing all too often. In many churches around this country we claim to await the lost with open arms....but, honestly.....do we?" Great post Wisdom. We left a church 3

We have witnessed the horrific pictures and details in the media of the torture of Iraqi prisoners, and terrorists. What does the Bible say about this? Is it justified in obtaining information to prevent another terrorist attack in America. Perhaps something far worse than 911? Acts 16:27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled. Was the prison guard going to kill himself because he would be tortured for losing the prisoners? Honor? 2 Timothy 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works: Was the coppersmith torturing Paul? Luke 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Does God deem torture (torment) acceptable? I appears so, not only torture but for all time. *** John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. I don't think it is justified. Do we act like animals because they act like animals? If our government allows this, then our people may also be tortured.

When I was about 16 years old I had a similar experience. I woke up and it was 3am. I

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Calamity Well said. In fact I don't think I could add anything more to the discussion. :t: So I'm off to other topics...

The Big Bang to God

The Big Bang discussion has fizzled to The Big Ego(s) discussion. Has everyone forgotten to discuss the issue and not the person.

Matthew 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. Jesus has given you a great gift. Once saved always saved Christians realize the depth of that gift. If you believe that you can lose your salvation you must always be in anguish. How truly sad that sounds. You are missing out on the true joy of the Lord. Once Christ paid the debt for all your sins he sent the comforter, the Holy Spirit to reside within you. You are sealed. In a way you could look at it like this. You have already done all there is to do to get into heaven, but die. Even Peter rejected Jesus. Do you think Peter would have gone to hell if after the third denial the mob had stoned him to death? Rhetorical only. Moments before he had defended the Lord with a sword. I doubt that I can convince you if you would believe even this. For your yoke is hard, and your burden is heavy. :-(

Future date was sooner than I thought. He are a few passages. I believe the passages in the original message refer to people who never were really saved like Judas. Judas did many good works, but did not believe on Jesus. Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Saved: from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saos, "safe"); to save, i.e. deliver or protect (literally or figuratively):--heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole. Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Deuteronomy 31:6 Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee. Joshua 1:5 There shall not any man be able to stand before thee all the days of thy life: as I was with Moses, so I will be with thee: I will not fail thee, nor forsake thee. 1 Chronicles 28:20 And David said to Solomon his son, Be strong and of good courage, and do it: fear not, nor be dismayed: for the LORD God, even my God, will be with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee, until thou hast finished all the work for the service of the house of the LORD. Nehemiah 9:31 Nevertheless for thy great mercies' sake thou didst not utterly consume them, nor forsake them; for thou art a gracious and merciful God. 2 Corinthians 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain. 2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.) Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. Luke 19:9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham. John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

Unbelievable. Jesus is no "Indian giver". Once you get saved, you are saved. Jesus shields you from the Fathers wrath with his own blood. I can quote many more scriptures that say you can never lose your salvation (I guess I will have to do that for a future post, hope there is not a limit to the post size - lol). That is the whole point of grace. It is a pure freedom greater than any I know. When anyone is talking about sinners going to hell in the bible they are talking about those who have never been saved. The law shows that all of us have fallen short, but the law was for the lawless. Once you ask the Lord to forgive you for your transgressions, and that you believe that he is the Son of God, and that you give your life freely to Him you are no longer under any law. Only to love Him, and to love others as He has loved us. If this were not so, every time you sin, and I mean every time you exceed the speed limit, give a proud look, or have a bad thought then you would lose your salvation. Surly not! Your own renewed conscious, the Holy Spirit living within you will keep you in check. You will still sin, but you will perceive it more as time goes on, and sin less. The Holy Spirit will convict us, grow us. 180 degrees different answer huh? :oww: :il:

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Wow! I can

dwinkjr - "Y2K had me scared" Best thing I ever heard about Y2K, that it got you to the Lord that is! Welcome! I'm pretty new to the boards also.

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Trick question but I'll fall for it anyway. I wouldn't do it for one reason. I am already saved by grace and I know my salvation is secure and cannot be taken away. So if I made the wrong decision, so what? Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without love of money, satisfied with your present circumstances; for *he* has said, I will not leave thee, neither will I forsake thee.

Thanks Catsmeow. Born again to a whole new life - literally - cool. Thanks Ref for the book ref - lol Thanks to the Christians who created this web site - it has really been a blessing. :t:

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Ref - Thank you for your prayers. The Wasteland. That is the perfect term. Give me patience and give it to me right now (((lol))). I will wait on the Lord. You have been through the ringer! What a great testimony you have.

Thank you so much for your prayer. If it is a test, its a very long test, and I have failed so many times I can't number them.

Perfect in God

Matthew 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. Perhaps you are trying too hard. He already loves you and cares for you. I have found out that being a Christian does not mean you will not have problems, in fact you may have more than your share - but then we will see Him face to face someday and there will be no tears. Take care.