Enquirer

Who am I? I am forgiven. The most profound thing I have found in scripture is...... That God, who knows me best....... Loves me anyway!

My last address to you. YOU WROTE: The remainder of your remarks, besides being laced with vitriol and bitterness, would only force me to repeat what I have already addressed. I will not waste my time posting and reposting the same arguments over and over. I have presented a substantive enough of a response that the reader can review all past posts decide for themselves who has made the weightier arguments. Enquirer's response: (NEW) You fill your powts with incendiary rhetoric, and accuse me of bitterness and vitriol? I guess that is easier than addressing the issues. You use terms like "Any honest Christian" as though I am a dishonest Christian, but I let that pass. You hav einsulted me and continually questioned my character; then have the audacity to say I am full of vitriol? YOU are not worth the effort. You still have not addressed the first issue I raised, with any degree of success. Jesus, when with the Father, is ouk monos. The father when with Jesus is ouk monos. Jehovah God monos created the heavens and the earth. Ergo, Jesus was not with the father. You have failed from page one to the very last to address any issue raised by me, except to spew your hate language, and dodge issues. Goodby.

PART V To Enquirer's remark: All that is in Colossians? I do not see "deliniations," "character," "operations," nor "attributes" in the reference material. shiloh357 responds - "Well the difference is clear to someone will to be honest in how they handle the Scriptures. It is clear from the Col 1:14-17, and the description of Jesus given, that it is not a description of mankind in general, and therefore the

PART IV shiloh357 continued - this in connection with the fact that God in the OT claims to be the Savior, means that Jesus must be God since He is the only Savior and the only Way to salvation. The

PART III To Enquirer's remark - It has been claimed that since God alone is saviour, and Jesus is saviour, Jesus must be God. That is an erroneous conclusion for the following reason: The children of Israel received blessings from God, and grew fat and sassy as a result: "So the children went in and possessed the land, and thou subduedst before them the inhabitants of the land, the Canaanites, and gavest them into their hands, with their kings, and the people of the land, that they might do with them as they would. 25 And they took strong cities, and a fat land, and possessed houses full of all goods, wells digged, vineyards, and oliveyards, and fruit trees in abundance: so they did eat, and were filled, and became fat, and delighted themselves in thy great goodness. 26 Nevertheless they were disobedient, and rebelled against thee, and cast thy law behind their backs, and slew thy prophets which testified against them to turn them to thee, and they wrought great provocations." [Neh 9:24-26] And God sent them saviours who saved them. God remained as the only saviour, but these surrogates served in his name, as saviours: "Therefore thou deliveredst them into the hand of their enemies, who vexed them: and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee, thou heardest them from heaven and according to thy manifold mercies THOU GAVEST THEM SAVIOURS, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies." [Neh 9:27] EXAMPLE: GIDEON Jdgs 6:14 And the LORD looked upon him, and said, Go in this thy might, and thou shalt save Israel from the hand of the Midianites: have not I sent thee? EXAMPLE: BOOK OF JUDGES 400 years cycle of faith, falling away, captivity, remorse, salvation, faith, falling away, etc. Obadiah 1:21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD'S. EXAMPLE: JESUS CHRIST - "Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a prince AND A SAVIOUR, for to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins." [Acts 5:31] So you see, God gave Jesus to Israel to be their saviour and gave him power to forgive there sins. shiloh357's response - This is just another sample of erroneous handling of the biblical Hebrew, and a complete disregard for how words are used. The difference between Jesus

PART II To Enquirer's remark - If Jesus is begotten, by the meaning inherent in the terminology, he had a "beginning," a "cause to be," he could not have been eternal in heaven prior to a beginning in the flesh. THAT is a contradiction, and makes God the author of confusion, which he says he is not. Or are you one of those who believes that words mean one thing when applied to men, and something different when applied to Jesus? shiloh357 responds - Well, I pay attention to context, and the entire counsel of the Word of God when I am dealing with issues like this. Hebrews 1:2 also says that Jesus is an heir. However, given what we know about Jesus, the concept of

PART I To Enquirer's remark - As for Jesus possessing power to die or not to die, what part of "This commandment have I received of my Father" do you perceive as not applying to Jesus' claim. It is, after all, he who makes the connection between his having the power, and God giving him the command. Shiloh357 responds - All Jesus is saying is that the Father has appointed that Jesus die and that Jesus take up His Life again. The Father appoints it, and Jesus was commissioned to do it. It is Jesus

Whenever you get opportunity, will you please post the "seven minor covenants" for my enlightenment? Thanks

The Lord has inspired me - One cannot "fellowship" in secret. It must be a sharing, a participation with others. In the case of prayer, in which we are told to go into our closet, it is a sharing of the bareing of the soul in prayer to God. In the case of sharing fellowship with the saints, it cannot be done without sharing the burdens of those who are in need. The same word translated "fellowship" in your excellent post, is also translated in other passages of scripture as "contribution, communication, communion, communicate, and distribution, all of which constitute a "fellowship" (koinonia = Strong's 2842) in one way or another. Rom 15:26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain CONTRIBUTION for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem. 1 Cor 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the COMMUNION of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the COMMUNION of the body of Christ? 2 Cor 9:13 Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for [your] liberal DISTRIBUTION unto them, and unto all [men]; 2 Cor 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the COMMUNION of the Holy Ghost, [be] with you all. Amen. Phlm 1:6 That the COMMUNICATION of thy faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus. Heb 13:16 But to do good and to COMMUNICATE forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased. Yours is an Excellent post, inspired indeed.

PART XII (23) To Enquirer's remark - "Not what I have in my source material." 2088 / 8034 / 834 / 7121 / 3068 / 6666... [23:6] 2088 / .... / 834 / 7121 / 3068 / 6666... [33:16] The ONLY difference is the use of Strong's 8034 in 23:6 [shem] which references a definite and auspicious position; an appelation, as a mark or memorial of individuallity by implying honor, authority, character. [strong] And why is this applied to the branch and not to Jerusalem? Because God had already so honored both the people [Num 6:22-27] and the city by placeing his name in the land of Israel, [Deu 12:3-11;; and in Jerusalem [i Kings 8:29][i Kings 9:3][iI Kings 21:4], the city of God. It did not need to be placed there again. Shiloh357 responded - The first phrase refers to a name; hence, the presence of the word shmo. "He shall be named" (Jeremiah 23:16) In Jeremiah 33:16, the wording is different, Enquirer (continued) DIFFERENT HOW? 2088 / 8034 / 834 / 7121 / 3068 / 6666... [23:6] 2088 / .... / 834 / 7121 / 3068 / 6666... [33:16] The ONLY difference is the use of Strong's 8034 in 23:6 [shem] which references a definite and auspicious position; an appelation, as a mark or memorial of individuallity by implying honor, authority, character. [strong] And why is this applied to the branch and not to Jerusalem? Because God had already so honored both the people [Num 6:22-27] and the city by placeing his name in the land of Israel, [Deu 12:3-11;; and in Jerusalem [i Kings 8:29][i Kings 9:3][iI Kings 21:4], the city of God. It did not need to be placed there again. To which Shiloh357 responded with - Well, my source material is the Hebrew language. You are relying on Strong

PART XI (21) To Shiloh357's remark - "Our Heavenly Father also has this to say:" I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. (Isaiah 42:8) For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another. (Isaiah 48:11) To ascribe the titles of Isaiah 9:6 to anyone would be give glory to that person. Those are

PART X (19) To Enquirer's remark - 7. All things are sustained by him because he has been promoted to second in heaven,and given all power. (Shiloh357:) No, that is not what the Bible says. The Bible teaches that Jesus created them and sustained them. The Bible does not teach that Jesus was promoted ahead of the creation He was once a part of. The Bible teaches that He created the very things He sustains. One cannot be both creator and creature at the same time. Jesus created them as creator, is separate from them. If He had the power to create them, He also possesses the power to sustain them. The Bible does not attribute Jesus power to sustain creation to a promotion. That is just something you made up. Enquirer's response (NEW) - "The Bible does not teach that Jesus was promoted ahead of the creation He was once a part of;" Sure it does. "Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him." [i Pet 3:22] (20) To Enquirer's remark - 8. And he is not "the father of eternity," he is the "Eternal Father" of the children God gave to him. Shiloh357 responded: - Wrong. I have already demonstrated above that the Hebrew means

PART IX (17) Shiloh357 continued - Even if we operated from your limited parameter, you would still have to explain when and how every Kingdom, every spiritual and earthly dominion principalities were made (past tense) by Jesus if Jesus is just a resurrected man, and nothing more. Even Paul recognized that all of the earthly powers of His day including Rome as being under the authority of Christ (whether the Romans recognized it or not). If we take your limited parameter, you need to explain the dominion of the Kingdoms and principalities in the spiritual realm that existed LONG before Jesus birth in the Gospels, and how it is that Paul could claim that Jesus created those invisible dominions, IF Jesus did not exist prior to his sojourn on planet earth. Enquirer responds (NEW) - Whenever a nation conquers another nation, they impose upon the vanquished a new order. They creat for them a new arrangement of things. Though they are not new to the conquerer, when it is imposed, it makes all things new to the vanquished. Remember the story about the roman conquerors who paraded their vanquished foes in a victory parade, openly shaming them. Paul tells us of Jesus and his "victory parade" thusly: "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it." [Col 2:14-15] He "made a shew of them openly" - he marched them in his victory parade, those whom he conquered by his death. And all the spiritual world of thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers were witness thereunto, after which they all moved down one place to accomodate his new position as head over them all. "And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:" [Col 2:10] Christ "recreated" the rank and importance of those authorities over whom he has been placed. He created all things in heaven or on earth, visible and invisible, WHETHER THEY BE Thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers; And THAT is the significance of "Whether" in that verse. (18) To Enquirer's remark - 6. He, resurrected, is before all things resurrected. Shiloh357 responded - True, but that does not diminish His Deity. It is really not an argument that helps you at all. Enquirer's response (NEW) - His deity has yet to be established. One cannot diminish what has not been established. This certainly tells us something about Jesus being "before all things" that does not require a prehistoric existence. THAT is the significance of it.

PART VIII (15) To Enquirer's remark - 5. Not quite accurate. All things in heaven or earth, visible or invisible, WHETHER THEY BE THRONES, OR DOMINIONS, OR PRINCIPALITIES OR POWERS. [Col 1:16] DO YOU NOT SEE THAT LITTLE LIMITING PARAMETER, {EITE} whether? It limits the "all things" to all things whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities or powers. Shiloh357 responded - That is not true. The passage begins by saying all things in heaven or earth visible or invisible.

PART VII (13) To Enquirer's remark: 3. Jesus is an eikwn of the invisible God; Men are the image (eikon) and glory (doza) of God. [i Cor 11:7] Shiloh357 responded: I am sorry but you are mistaken in your application. In Colossians, when Paul says that Jesus is the image of the invisible God, Paul explains what He means. Paul is referring to Christ as the deliniation of God in terms of character, operations and attributes, and goes on to discuss Christ as the creator and sustainer of the universe. The New Testament is very clear in how it treats the concept of Jesus being the image of the Father. Man is the image of God

PART VI (11) To Enquirer's remark: 1. Since God cannot die, it is the blood of a man, the son of God. Shiloh357 responded - If God only need the blood of man, any man would have done just fine. God did not need human blood. By your standard, Moses could have died for mankind or any of the prophets or some other righteous figure, like John the Baptist. The blood had to be sinless, and man no matter how righteous He is, is born with a sin nature. If Jesus had been just like any other man, had he, simply been chosen out of other worthy candidates to be the Messiah, there is no way that a man could have ever lived up to God

PART V (9) To Enquirer's remark: "As for being called "Everlasting Father" (as opposed to "Father of eternity") He is a Father to God's children, because God invested them in Jesus by giving them to him." Shiloh357 responds: "Nice try, but that is wrong on two counts: Number one, the Bible NOWHERE says that Jesus is a

PART IV (7) Shiloh357 continues his response: "You ask the question as to why I am surprised that God gave names above every name to a resurrected man

PART III (3) To Shiloh357's remark: "So how much stock can we put in the above author

PART II (3) To Shiloh357's remark: "So how much stock can we put in the above author

Part I (1)To Shiloh357's remark: " From the preceding comments cited above, the overarching concept being proclaimed is that Jesus did not pre-exist creation but only pre-existed most of the major figures in the Bible. Adam and Eve and Satan and the Father Himself, being the only major Bible characters who pre-date Jesus in existence, whether by physical/supernatural existence, or in the form of prophecy as the author above believes." Enquirer responded: "Wrong. That is not my claim. ALL the bible characters predate Jesus all the way to and including his cousin John, EXCEPT Jesus predates them in prophecy, as the first object of prophecy in Gen 3:15. This includes also the minor figures of scripture." To which Shiloh357 responded: "Well it is a minor point, and I suppose not worth laboring over, but if the

From the preceding comments cited above, the overarching concept being proclaimed is that Jesus did not pre-exist creation but only pre-existed most of the major figures in the Bible. Adam and Eve and Satan and the Father Himself, being the only major Bible characters who pre-date Jesus in existence, whether by physical/supernatural existence, or in the form of prophecy as the author above believes. Wrong. That is not my claim. ALL the bible characters predate Jesus all the way to and including his cousin John, EXCEPT Jesus predates them in prophecy, as the first object of prophecy in Gen 3:15. This includes also the minor figures of scripture.

"Deity of Jesus" - has a nice sound to it doesn't it? But is it scriptural? Remains to be seen, or demonstrated. Let me begin by pointing out that the story of Jesus does not begin at John 1:1, nor does it begin anywhere near John's writings, but actually begins 66 books earlier, with Gen 3:15, which tells us that the seed of the woman will crush the head of the seed of the serpent. This is the first prophecy with promise, and the beginning of the "Jesus controversy." Jesus by this prophecy, predates Abraham in accordance with John 8:58, "Before Abraham became, I am." It is also in keeping with I Cor 15:45-46, in which is stated, "And so it is written, the first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit, that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterwards, that which is spiritual." So John correctly instructs us that Jesus predates Abraham IN SOME FASHION, (Prophecy); and Paul tells us Adam predated Jesus in some fashion, dealing with "protwn," an ordinal adverb pointing out things that are first, or in order of protocol. John the Baptist further adds to the concept by bearing witness of him, saying, "This is he of whom I spoke, He that cometh after me, before me has become." [John 1:15,30] John is pointing out what Moses said in Gen, and Paul said in I Corinthians, that Adam was first, then John the baptist, then Jesus, the latter becoming "before" John in importance or stature. God tells us in Psalm 86:10 "Thou art the monos (only) and the great God." Isaiah tells us [37:16] O Lord of hosts, God of Israel, who sittest upon the cherubs, thou ALONE (monos) art the God of every kingdom of the world: thou hast made heaven and earth." "Thus saith the Lord that redeems thee, and who formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that performs all things: I stretched out the heaven monos (alone), and established the earth." [isa 44:24];" Jesus also tells us something that adds to the evidence. ""I am not alone, (ouk monos), because the father is with me." [John 16:32]. While Jehovah points out that he created all things monos (alone) Jesus tells us that when he and the father are together, they are "ouk monos (NOT ALONE.) IF Jesus is deity, beyond being a FORM OF deity, then who is he? He is not Jehovah, he is not the Father, he is not prior to Adam, he is "before Abraham" but only in Prophecy, and he is after John in actuallity. Jesus, being a "form of God," cannot be God of whom he is a form.