Larry 2

Hi Larry, The last time I had a discussion on Rev 5:10 with someone on this board, it ended unpleasantly. I hope it will be different this time, even if we disagree with each other in the end. The reading you quote is only in the KJV, and perhaps in some other old translations. Almost all modern translations, e.g. NIV, ESV, NASB, NRSV, NLT, you name it, etc. translate us/we as them/they. E.g. in the NIV it is: "You have made THEM to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and THEY will reign on the earth." (emphasis mine) Therefore, if the modern translators are correct, the verse actually proves that the 24 elders cannot be the raptured church because they would not refer to themselves as 'them/they'. Of course, there as some KJV-only believers and for them the modern translators are all intentionally mistranslating this text. I do not know whether you are one but, if you are, I would appeal to you to consider that such an accusation would tantamount to saying that all those modern COMMITTEES (no modern translation is the work of only one or a few individuals) of translators are conspiring against the KJV. I really don't see any reason why they should. Hope that helps. Dear Brother ghtan, we don’t have to agree. I simply give out what I do to open the imagination concerning scripture, especially of end times, and I’ll not argue it, but simply offer discussion into possible differences most have never considered, and then I might also learn. I am aware of the wording differences in Rev 5:9-10 between the KJV and other Bibles. You had considered that Moses might be one of the 24 elders, and would it have made it correct if he had sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; Oops. Moses or other Old Testament elect could not have said that; they were of Israel. Thanks.

Dear Brother ghtan, aside from the fact that John sees and describes the different ones arriving at different times, being in different locations, and having different missions, they are rewarded for their faithfulness. Why aren’t we, all the body of Christ as one body of believers told to be faithful unto death (Rev 2:10) with the promise, I will give thee a crown of life. What of Philadelphia patiently keeping the word of God, accompanied with a promise of being kept from the temptation to come upon all the world? In addition to that in Rev 3:11, . . . hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Notice the 24 elders of Rev 4:4 having on their heads crowns of gold, and in Rev 4:10, The four and twenty elders . . . cast their crowns before the throne, . . . , Regardless of all I’ve studied, I am drawn to the fact that our walk with Christ determines not only the time of our arrival in heaven, but what we will do when we get there, and the proximity we have to God’s throne. If by some reason I have yet to find to substantiate showing but one catching up of all the elect of the Church, why wouldn’t John have told of the Great Multitude being before the throne when he saw the 24 elders and 4 living creatures? I mean, that sure would have been a sizeable cohort to miss standing there. God bless you in Jesus. Hi Larry, You make a very good point. Why does John not describe a multitude of believers surrounding the throne in 4:2? After all, he is quite prepared to do so in 7:9. The answer is simple - the rapture has not happened at this juncture! The absence of a multitude speaks against it. It is doubtful we can equate the 24 elders with Smyrna and Philadelphia simply because all three mention crowns. The first rider also has a crown (6:2). So too the locusts (9:7)! Surely they do not symbolise believers too. These only show that crowns is a common symbol. Indeed, if we equate characters simply on the basis of the same symbol, we would have to say that the rider on the white horse in 6:2 is Jesus because Jesus also rides on a white horse in 19:11. That would create more problems than it solves. Hey, that's fair enough question. Now I would ask who the twenty-four elders and four living ones are since the Church is being revealed on the Lord's Day, and they came to be with Jesus at that time; and they did need to be caught up to be there. I see no other indicators of a rapture after that point until the first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation. There's even the admonition to the church in Thyatira. Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. Now this is part of the total body of Christ which I believe to speak to Catholicism, and in Rev 18:4 we read of God's people in there. Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, MY PEOPLE, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. Thanks. gtan - The text is unclear who the 24 elders are. Some think they may be angelic beings. My guess is that they are great servants of God who died before John wrote. People like Moses, etc.. They are still in spirit form since the rapture has not happened yet. Taking a step back, I think there are two main ways John could depict the rapture. One way would be to picture the process, i.e. show many people ascending into heaven. There are three ascensions in Rev - John, the two witnesses and the man-child. Of these, the two witnesses has by far the best case. The second way would be to picture the product of the rapture, i.e. a multitude suddenly appearing in heaven. This is exactly what we have in 7:9. John even tells us they "came out of the great tribulation" (7:14). My preference is for the latter, but note that both are mid-trib positions. Blessings. ghtan - The text is unclear who the 24 elders are. Some think they may be angelic beings. My guess is that they are great servants of God who died before John wrote. People like Moses, etc.. They are still in spirit form since the rapture has not happened yet. Larry 2 - Since Revelation is revealing Jesus, He is the head of the church, and we read in Act 15:14, Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. What do you think a people for His name will be? Will this be the bride of Christ? Paul said it like this in 2 Cor 11:2. For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ. Is there something in these scriptures indicating there is more than just getting to heaven? You mention the possibility of Moses being in spirit form ascending to be the twenty-four elders. Allow me to run this by you. Jesus said of John the Baptist, Luk 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he, but John say below that his reward will being the friend of the bridegroom; not the bride. Joh 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. I would then ask just who of the Church qualifies to be the bride of our Savior if not those of Smyrna that remained faithful unto death? Rev 2:10. One other thing Paul brings out in 2 Tim 2:12, If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: . . Could the following scripture allude to that same thought concerning the 24 elders? Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (over) the earth. ghtan - Taking a step back, I think there are two main ways John could depict the rapture. One way would be to picture the process, i.e. show many people ascending into heaven. There are three ascensions in Rev - John, the two witnesses and the man-child. Of these, the two witnesses has by far the best case. The second way would be to picture the product of the rapture, i.e. a multitude suddenly appearing in heaven. This is exactly what we have in 7:9. John even tells us they "came out of the great tribulation" (7:14). Larry 2 - Those of Rev 7:9 and Rev 12:5 surely seem to be mid-trib translations.

Greetings Larry2 Does not the scriptures say; Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Colossians 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. If we are all one in Christ, then why the separation amongst gentiles and the tribes of Israel concerning the coming? That would make the above scriptures not true, because there is clearly a division if the 144,000 are all Israel. The 144,000 have their part before the millennium. They follow the Lamb. They follow his teachings. Can you see what I am saying? I would like someone to address this and show me clearly where my line of thinking is wrong in putting these scriptures together. On a different note; We know that God has a plan for Israel during the millennium, and then there will be a separation between Israel and the gentiles, but all these who will be called back to live in the kingdom on earth have not taken part in the 1st Resurrection of the saints, so it's a different time and different circumstance. They will be learning Christ because they did not know him. They will be restored. The 144,000 know him because they follow him. Quote Sister - Many are sealed in Christ meaning their salvation is secured. They will be raised in the resurrection and will meet with the Lord. This is a promise and a hope in something true. They had their tribulations in their lifetime and overcame. They were sealed with that promise and nothing can break it. Larry 2 - The very same thing will be true of those firstfruits of all the nation of Israel sealed during the first half of the tribulation. Sister - Does not the scriptures say; Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Colossians 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. If we are all one in Christ, then why the separation amongst gentiles and the tribes of Israel concerning the coming? That would make the above scriptures not true, because there is clearly a division if the 144,000 are all Israel. Larry 2 - Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Dear Sister, I can do no more than give my opinion here, and in Christ we do become one. The same will be with the 144,000 as the firstfruits of all the tribes of Israel to God when God begins dealing once again with nations. At this time the times of the Gentiles has ceased, the fullness of the Gentiles which Simion declared in Act 15:14 . . how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name is complete. Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion (The heavenly Jerusalem - Rev 12:22) the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. My understanding here is that Jacob is representing all Israel as its progenitor. That leaves us with the 144,000 being the firstfuits of the all Israel being saved. Sister - The 144,000 have their part before the millennium. They follow the Lamb. They follow his teachings. Can you see what I am saying? I would like someone to address this and show me clearly where my line of thinking is wrong in putting these scriptures together. Larry 2 - These are indeed caught up prior to the millennium as the man child of Rev 12:5, and in fact at the time the antichrist is found as the abomination of desolation, that son of perdition sitting in the Holy place showing himself as God. 2 Thes 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Larry 2 - Does this help at all? It’s not easy seeing some of these time changes, or dispensations as many refer to them. Sister - On a different note; We know that God has a plan for Israel during the millennium, and then there will be a separation between Israel and the gentiles, but all these who will be called back to live in the kingdom on earth have not taken part in the 1st Resurrection of the saints, so it's a different time and different circumstance. They will be learning Christ because they did not know him. They will be restored. The 144,000 know him because they follow him. Larry 2 - What you describe is the dispensational view of transition from the Church age to the Kingdom Age. Israel will be the head of the nations, and we even read of what God is doing in those nations during the millennium. Isa 19:23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians. Isa 19:24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land: Isa 19:25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance. My thoughts.

The Importance of the Armor. KJV Ephesians 6:10-13 . Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Ephesians 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness. 1. Loins girt about with truth of the word. Psalms 119:114. "Thou art my hiding place and my shield: I hope in thy word." John 17:17. "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." 2. Breastplate of righteousness. Psalms 23:3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake. How does God do this? Through His word. Philippians 2:13 tells us, "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure," and again this will be through His word. Ephesians 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace. Your feet being shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace is symbolic of our walk, and the gospel proclaims good tidings of those different things God is doing. How do you prepare? Through the word; you cannot run to tell the message without being prepared with the word. 1 Peter 3:15 says it like this: "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear." Ephesians 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. Above all, taking the shield of faith. Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Mark 4:40 And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith? Well I would say to this that if I think I have no faith, what happened to the faith God has dealt to every man? Is it merely weakened for a lack of exercising it? Romans 14:1. Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. Dear hearts, Christ leads us into valleys as well as the mountaintops so that we may be tested. 1 Peter 1:7. That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: Remember that we are God's workmanship; a jewel being prepared, and God may be bragging on you just as He did in Job 1:8, And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? Do you think since you are saved by the blood of Christ and not by works of righteousness which you have done, that you are any less perfect than Job was? That was just the beginning of Job's testing and God perfected him as He is doing in you. Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. Take the helmet of salvation. Only through the word can you know the assurance of your salvation. It is there for all, but hard for many to ever realize; that takes that faith to believe God instead of ourselves accusing us. Even Job defended himself against his accusers, and God has laid aside every sin we have in the death of His Son. Romans 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Philippians 3:9, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith. Ephesians 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints. Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit. Oh the blessings we receive when we love our brethren as ourselves, and many times we can see our brother struggling and easily pray for them, but then forget to have that same integrity toward our own spiritual walk. Our faith weakens and we find ourselves in the far land feeding swine, and in want. Now we remain the son, and our Father never leaves or forsakes us, but we soon find ourselves in want. What to do about it? Run to our Father Who will run to meet us, put our ring back on our finger, the robe of righteousness, and slaughter the fatted calf to honor us. Faith? Hebrews 12:2. "Look unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." We cannot do it, but God can. Philippians 1:6 "Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." May God bless this to you in Jesus' name.

Sister - Many are sealed in Christ meaning their salvation is secured. They will be raised in the resurrection and will meet with the Lord. This is a promise and a hope in something true. They had their tribulations in their lifetime and overcame. They were sealed with that promise and nothing can break it. Larry 2 - The very same thing will be true of those firstfruits of all the nation of Israel sealed during the first half of the tribulation. Sister - if He is guiding all then why so many divisions? Larry 2 - I suggest we have no more division than the disciples. E.g., Gal 2:11 (Paul and Peter at Antioch) Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. What of Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath. 1 Cor 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face . . Sister - The 144,000 are alive at the time of Sealing. They are sealed just before the tribulation. Larry 2 - I disagree with this due to the fact that Revelation Chapter Seven occurs during the first 3 1/2 years of tribulation said to be the “Temptation which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.” (Rev 3:10) That which is called the Great Tribulation is the second half of the week of tribulation. Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Rev 12:5 The man child (144,000) are delivered from that time and caught up to God. Sister - They (144,000) are following the Lamb where ever he goes, and they are all singing the same song that no man knows but them and the 24 elders and 4 beasts know. Larry 2 - I’m not sure what gives you the idea that the 24 elders and 4 beasts know the song the 144,000 sing. Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. Blessings dear Sister in Jesus’ name.

Hi Larry There are only 144,000 sealed. No more. The effects of the tribulation cannot harm them because they followed the Lamb whereever he goes. (big clue) The rest of the saints have to go through tribulation because of all those reasons listed to the seven churches. Not all Christians are Church attendees. These warnings apply to them also. It's so simple, Christ is warning us all to come out of Babylon, ...to not be yoked with her. We have to understand what that means exactly. It's not just about worshiping idols, but anything else that comes before God in our hearts whatever it may be, that's what we worship. We don't have to bow down to worship something, but love it more than we love God. Putting God second place is not accepted, therefore tribulation to the saints who do not keep the first commandment in the old and new testament. Christ was not just speaking to just the Catholics, but the whole Christian world. God bless Dear Sister, we old Gentiles here are also sealed unto God at this present time 2Co 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; 2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. By drawing attention to Thyatira, I just used one example of judgment of the Church to show a place where tribulation is reflected against five of the seven church assemblies addressed. I too came out of the Catholic Church due to dogma, not because I believed them all to not be Christians. To the best of my thinking, I find only two of the seven churches meeting the standards Jesus wants in us, and of course I am again referring to Philadelphia (patiently keeping the word), and Smyrna (being faithful unto death.) There is consequence to the leading of the Holy Spirit in our lives, and as Paul told us of the things he did in Php 3:8, . . "that I may win Christ," In Php 3:9 Paul wanted to be found in Him, not having his own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith. Paul wanted to be one that won Jesus as his bridegroom. And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Dear Brother ghtan, aside from the fact that John sees and describes the different ones arriving at different times, being in different locations, and having different missions, they are rewarded for their faithfulness. Why aren’t we, all the body of Christ as one body of believers told to be faithful unto death (Rev 2:10) with the promise, I will give thee a crown of life. What of Philadelphia patiently keeping the word of God, accompanied with a promise of being kept from the temptation to come upon all the world? In addition to that in Rev 3:11, . . . hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Notice the 24 elders of Rev 4:4 having on their heads crowns of gold, and in Rev 4:10, The four and twenty elders . . . cast their crowns before the throne, . . . , Regardless of all I’ve studied, I am drawn to the fact that our walk with Christ determines not only the time of our arrival in heaven, but what we will do when we get there, and the proximity we have to God’s throne. If by some reason I have yet to find to substantiate showing but one catching up of all the elect of the Church, why wouldn’t John have told of the Great Multitude being before the throne when he saw the 24 elders and 4 living creatures? I mean, that sure would have been a sizeable cohort to miss standing there. God bless you in Jesus. Hi Larry, You make a very good point. Why does John not describe a multitude of believers surrounding the throne in 4:2? After all, he is quite prepared to do so in 7:9. The answer is simple - the rapture has not happened at this juncture! The absence of a multitude speaks against it. It is doubtful we can equate the 24 elders with Smyrna and Philadelphia simply because all three mention crowns. The first rider also has a crown (6:2). So too the locusts (9:7)! Surely they do not symbolise believers too. These only show that crowns is a common symbol. Indeed, if we equate characters simply on the basis of the same symbol, we would have to say that the rider on the white horse in 6:2 is Jesus because Jesus also rides on a white horse in 19:11. That would create more problems than it solves. Hey, that's fair enough question. Now I would ask who the twenty-four elders and four living ones are since the Church is being revealed on the Lord's Day, and they came to be with Jesus at that time; and they did need to be caught up to be there. I see no other indicators of a rapture after that point until the first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation. There's even the admonition to the church in Thyatira. Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. Now this is part of the total body of Christ which I believe to speak to Catholicism, and in Rev 18:4 we read of God's people in there. Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, MY PEOPLE, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. Thanks.

I'll just add a thought to the priesthood Jesus has. Melchizedek was a king and a priest. There was no limit on his priest hood: the Aaronic priest was limited to 20 years and they had to give up sacrifices for themselves and the people, and their priesthood was interrupted by death Hebrews 5:3. And by reason hereof he (Aaron) ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins. Christ offered up Himself for the people, and He didn't have to be a Levite or born into it, As our priest king Jesus will never die, and it is said of Him in Psa_110:4 . . Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

The following scripture verifies that Jesus is the King and priest continually. Heb 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, . . . Heb 7:3 (Was) . . . made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. We read in 1 Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Melchisedec was not Jesus.

What if the Gog / Magog war was a prophetic event detailing 2 separate and different wars of different times? Perhaps a dual-fulfillment hidden in the passage. Eze 38:8 After many days you will be mustered. In the latter years (in Hebrew -- achrarit ha-shamim -- it's the ONLY TIME this phrase is used in the entire Old Testament) you will go against the land that is restored from war, the land whose people were gathered from many peoples upon the mountains of Israel, which had been a continual waste. Its people were brought out from the peoples and now dwell securely, all of them. Eze 38:16 You will come up against my people Israel, like a cloud covering the land. In the latter days (in Hebrew -- acharit ha-yamim -- used often to describe the time when the millennial Kingdom is established) I will bring you against my land, that the nations may know me, when through you, O Gog, I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. Dear Brother George, I hope you don't mind my input in answer to your post here. Notice that Gog is in the conflict at the end of the tribulation, and it takes 7 months to bury them at the start of the millennium. Ezk 39:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog. Ezk 39:12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land. This is part of Armageddon and Matthew 24:28 we read, For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Now notice what occurs at the end of the millennium. Revelation 20:7. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison." Revelation 20:8. And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea." Armageddon including Gog begins the millennium, whereas the battle of Gog & Magog, the nations from all over the world ends the millennium. I think I have this in its proper order.

Hi Omegaman, If you had read the main point of this post, you would find that I am pointing out that the 2nd resurrection is the judgment of the "lost" as you put it .. (not concentrating on there being those who lived in Christ during the coming millennium being there too however since my point concerns unbelievers finding mercy after their works based judgment .. I see that works based judgment as a minimal requirement to be met before being considered to gain mercy to finish off that judgment .. seeing that mercy through Christ is the only way man can attain eternity) Thanks again bro .. Regards. I accidentally responded to the wrong post, and deleted it. Sorry.

Everything from Rev 4:1 is the viewpoint of hereafter from the beginning of the Lord’s Day when Jesus starts His thousand year reign. Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. John describes the following appearing of saints after he is caught into heaven in Rev 4:1. John sees 24 elders (Rev 4:4), and 4 beasts or living ones in (Rev 4:6) with Jesus prior to the tribulation beginning. The second cohort of believers will be the Great Multitude raptured somewhere during the first half of the seven years of tribulation. Rev 7:14 . . These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. The third will be the 144,000 we see standing before the throne in the heavenly Jerusalem (Mount Sion Heb 12:22); the firstfruits to God out of the nation of Israel. These will be caught up just prior to the reign of the man of sin (Antichrist), the second half of the tribulation, or Jacob’s trouble. Someone suggested the two witnesses as possibly being two groups as another rapture, but I have not formed an opinion on that yet. Thanks. Still confused. You speak of three groups; are you saying that there will be three raptures or that there will be one rapture that produces those three groups? A simple answer would help. I'm sorry ghtan, there are seven churches judged in Revelation Chapters Two & Three, and they all get to heaven in stages. To get to heaven they must be caught up; dead or alive, and exactly in that order. First rapture - There are two of the churches represented which are Smyrna, and Philadelphia with Jesus when He receives His throne in Rev 4:2. To me they are those dead in Christ to rise first (Rev 2:10), and those alive when Jesus comes for them (Rev 3:10); these were kept from the temptation to come upon all the world. Second rapture - The Great Multitude caught up out of great tribulation (Rev 7:14). . . These are they which came out of great tribulation. (Rev 7:15) Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple . . Third rapture - The Man Child (Rev 12:5). The woman of Rev 12:1, brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. Who are these? Rev 14:1. And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion Heavenly Jerusalem Heb 12:22), and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. I have no idea if the two witnesses would be considered another rapture or not, and the reason I say this is because they don't seem to fit the order of the dead in Christ, and then those that remain alive of 1 Thes 4:16-17. Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. I hope this is a better example of what I am saying. Thanks. Thanks, clearer now. Essentially, the 'good' believers - a minority due 2 out of 7 churches - are taken away in the first rapture in Rev 4:1 while the majority are 'not-so-good' and have to wait till 7:9 to be rescued and some even later still. Apart from exegetical difficulties with that view, I also have doubts over its logic. If the 'not-so-good' are not faithful when things are going well, what hope is there that they will improve when things become tough during the period of the seals? Especially as the good ones will no longer be around to encourage them. Furthermore, apart from threatening them with death, the beast will probably taunt them that God has evidently abandoned them. I can't see many of them standing firm. Then we won't see a multitude in heaven in 7:9 but only a small company. Therefore, with the vast majority, I think one rapture makes more sense. I am curious though - is there a logical or theological reason that leads you to look for more raptures? Dear Brother ghtan, aside from the fact that John sees and describes the different ones arriving at different times, being in different locations, and having different missions, they are rewarded for their faithfulness. Why aren’t we, all the body of Christ as one body of believers told to be faithful unto death (Rev 2:10) with the promise, I will give thee a crown of life. What of Philadelphia patiently keeping the word of God, accompanied with a promise of being kept from the temptation to come upon all the world? In addition to that in Rev 3:11, . . . hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Notice the 24 elders of Rev 4:4 having on their heads crowns of gold, and in Rev 4:10, The four and twenty elders . . . cast their crowns before the throne, . . . , Regardless of all I’ve studied, I am drawn to the fact that our walk with Christ determines not only the time of our arrival in heaven, but what we will do when we get there, and the proximity we have to God’s throne. If by some reason I have yet to find to substantiate showing but one catching up of all the elect of the Church, why wouldn’t John have told of the Great Multitude being before the throne when he saw the 24 elders and 4 living creatures? I mean, that sure would have been a sizeable cohort to miss standing there. God bless you in Jesus.

Hi Larry2 If we have the true testimony of Christ, then we are of those who have been given the truth. The truth can only be revealed through the holy spirit and the truth cannot be based upon assumptions and opinions, but on what we have been given through the holy scriptures. If we interpret something wrong in square 1, then square 2 and 3 will be out. Do you see what I am saying? It will lead us down a path of error. I don't wish to distract your post and go off in another direction, which is why I am going back to square 1. I can't continue on in square 3 because it doesn't flow. We have to establish the same understanding from square 1 for the topic to flow, or else it turns into a den of confusion and the topic goes every where else and not where you intended it to go. I am not the authority on the scriptures, so all we are doing is reasoning within the scriptures we are given. Everything has to harmonise. So if somebody has preached error or misunderstood some scriptures is he condemned? No. As we learn we always make mistakes, and what the holy spirit will do, is to correct us if we will hear. God will sharpen us. You have answered me back quickly brother, and I can see you are passionate about the truth, and look into a lot of detail therefore I will invest my time in this conversation, and I believe the spirit of God has led you to open this up for discussion. Now you have made some points that made me stop and think! For a moment I was really pondering on what you said, thinking maybe I'm wrong, so I just had to go back to the scriptures to prove to myself why I believed the way I do, and found some answers there to your questions. Which is why I am bringing forth my points, and you can bring forth yours. We are laying it all out on the table, and I wish to go back to the drawing board dear brother. If you are up for a good discussion Ok, what I see wrong here is that the letters were not addressed to the pastors, but to the angels who were overseeing these churches. Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. The letters were written to the 7 angels in charge of those churches, who are the 7 stars. These angels are responsible and overlooking the 7 candlesticks which are the 7 churches. The warning was given to each angel to warn the church. The truth is for each individual to seek out during their walk. Repenting is for each of us on a personal level. If the warning was placed solely on the pastor, and the pastor did not heed, then the individuals could blame the pastor for not guiding them directly. Each one of us is responsible for our walk and efforts to find the truth. We cannot place any blame on any one else for error but ourselves which is why we use the bible as our authority. I reckon the proof will be in the pudding when we are face to face with our Savior. A thought I have concerning the angels of the churches not being their pastors is that they need to have John write letters to them so they know what the judgment against them is. Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

In Revelation Ch. 4 & 5 God the Father is unveiling to us the authority Christ has been given. Larry brought out the wonderful scripture - Eph 1:21 (Jesus is) ` Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:` We know this by reading the epistles, however God the Father (in Rev.) is drawing all the details together & giving us an amazing insight to when, how & why it all comes about. Previously we were shown Christ as the High Priest in the midst of the Body of Christ. Now we are shown that He has a throne, special authority – a priest on a throne, a king priest. This is most unusual as the two offices were never held by one man (in Israel). Yet here we see the Lord Jesus Christ, the King Priest on His throne. So what is so special about that? What authority does it give Him instead of just being a king. A priest needs to be from mankind to be able to represent man, while a king needs to know God`s will to represent God. Thus the one who rules over all (under God the Father) needs to be able to sympathize with man as well as represent God in his dealings with man. Thus we see the great search for someone who would be able to fulfill this role. For someone who would have the right to receive dominion over the earth, intercede for man (priest) & execute the judgments needed to restore God`s rule (king). `And I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside & on the back, sealed with seven seals. Then I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll & to loose its seals?” And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or look at it. So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open & read the scroll, or look at it.` (Rev. 5: 1 – 4) The Apostle John was rightly very sad. No one was found in all heaven or earth to restore mankind & rule over them. Man had given away his dominion over the earth at the fall & thus sickness, disease, warfare, decay, & death ravaged mankind. If no one was found worthy, then mankind was doomed. But, praise the Lord, we know that Jesus came to this sin-sick world as the second Adam. He never gave away His right to dominion of the earth,(king) He did the Father`s will & He paid the ultimate sacrifice for the restoring of mankind, (priest). `Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful & faithful high priest in all things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For in that He Himself suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.` (Heb. 2: 17 & 18) So now we see this `drama,` being played out for us in a symbolic pictorial representation – Jesus receiving the authority to rule the world. `But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll & to loose its seven seals” And I looked, & behold, in the midst of the throne & of the four living creatures, & in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns & seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. Then He came & took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.`(Rev. 5: 5 & 6) Jesus` credentials are now described, showing that He is indeed worthy to receive the authority over mankind & the earth. He is from mankind, a man, from Israel, God`s ruling nation & of the ruling tribe, (right to rule – Kingship). Then we are shown, pictorially that Jesus is a `Lamb as though slain,` (priesthood) with the anointing of the Holy Spirit, (the seven-fold Spirit of God). God the Father is then shown as the one who gives Jesus the authority to rule over the nations. Jesus `in the midst of the throne,` takes the scroll, the symbol of the executive power to rule. `The Father...has given Him (Christ) authority to execute judgment..` (John 5: 27) “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain to receive power & riches & wisdom, & strength & honour & glory & blessing!” (Rev. 5: 12) Marilyn. Dear Sister Marilyn, I have the idea we’re thinking alike considering Jesus’ rising to taking the power given Him in Mat 28:18. All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. With the world suffering birth pangs as it were in this present times of the Gentiles, Luk 21:24 . . Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled, where is Jesus? Sitting in the throne of our Father and according to Heb 7:25 He ever lives to make intercession for us. This is Jesus’ priestly nature. When will Jesus ascend to the position of King of kings, and Lord of lords? 1 Tim 6:15. Which in his times He shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords. Jesus will proclaim in Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. He has taken the all power and authority. Please let me know if I seem to take you off topic. Thanks.

Hi Sister, what we believe will not affect the salvation we are to experience unless it would harm our walk with Christ. My interest is in the implementation of God’s work as we see ensuing signs of the times. Jesus’ angel of Rev 1:1, that one of Rev 19:10 is simply a messenger to make known coming events of the end times to John, and if you look at Rev 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write . . . These were pastors of those seven churches addressed in Revelation Chapters Two & Three. I personally do not believe the one John bowed to in Rev 19:10 was a created angel, but merely a saint conformed into the very image of Christ. Is there any scripture you know of suggesting that angels are redeemed? I know that you think Rev 19:10 says that. We may even be given a message just for us through preaching in our local assemblies. That is the speaker being the messenger at that moment. I’ve heard people say; That message was just for me, and it could very well have been. God bless you in Jesus’ name.

What makes you think so? How are some possibly with Jesus before the tribulation, and others of the church arrive in heaven out of great tribulation? Thanks for your reply. I don't believe I said anything about anyone going through the Great Tribulation. The saints are ALL caught up to Heaven BEFORE that happens. God has not appointed us to wrath. I’m sorry Ezra, I know you didn’t say any of the redeemed would go through the tribulation; that was a question of mine. Let me ask it another way. Do you think that Revelation Chapter Four is before the tribulation we read of indexed in Revelation Chapter Six? Do you believe that the 24 elders and 4 living creatures or beasts are raptured children of God? What of the Great Multitude of Rev 7:14? Were they caught up to God back in Revelation Chapter Four, and John just didn’t see or describe them at that time? Matthew Chapter Twenty-four describes the second 3 ½ years of tribulation when the antichrist begins his rule on earth which is wrath before unknown. Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Thanks.

My understanding was that the trump is not a trumpet blast spoken of here, but an illustration of Jesus’ voice in magnitude. Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. I am interested in your thoughts of a later trumpet blown on the Day of Atonement after this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality according to 1 Cor 15:53. . Is it a trumpet or voice, and what is its significance? Thanks. Hi Larry, vs 53 refers to 2 different classes of believers: The corruptible refer to the people who died and have returned to dust.They will put on incorruption. We who are still alive in body will put on immortality. This last trumpet does not mean the end of this world but will sound when Jesus meet us in the air. Then the dead will be raised to incorruptible and we shall be changed. What a moment that we will be ,when the dead who are now dust (believers)shall be alive... Dear sister, to me the time of these prophesies are at the end of the millennium, and death will be no more. What do you think? 1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? Larry, do you think we are living in the Millennium? Isaiah 11:6 The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them. No I do not believe we are living in the millennium at this time. If you are asking if I think we will be alive during the millennium I would say yes, but it will be with Jesus in heaven reigning with Him over the earth. Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (over) the earth. Thanks for the question.

Larry 2 Quote Back to John. Rev 1:10. I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet. When is the Lord’s Day? It is not Saturday or Sunday, it is Jesus’ thousand year reign as Almighty God. Sister - Yes that's the Lords day also, but if we read further, we can understand what he means exactly; Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; Revelation 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Revelation 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. This is the Lords day that John was speaking about, when the Lamb was the only one worthy to open the seals. It was this day John was taken up to heaven in the spirit. Larry 2 – I agree completely. Until John was taken to heaven in Spirit, his writing and revelation were of that which was, and the things that are during this present age (Rev 1:8) that pertain to the Church and its judgment shown us in Revelation Chapters Two & Three. The fullness of the Gentiles is complete and the scene changes to the time when Jesus takes that all power given Him by our Father told us in Mat 28:18. Other references to this future time are “The Day of the Lord, and In That Day.” Larry 2 Quote At this point John is observing things in heaven prior to the sequence of events of the tribulation we read of in the index of Revelation Chapter Six. Rev 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. Rev 4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. Who are these saints? Sister - God never refers to his saints as beasts. Nations yes, Kingdoms yes, The Son of Perdition yes, but never the saints. The saints are sometimes referred to as creatures, but never beasts. Larry 2 - I’ve heard different reasons John may have referred to these special full overcomers that patiently kept the word of God as beasts, but every one of them in my opinion is purely speculation. I do like the way Ezekiel referred to these saints as Living Creatures which many newer versions of the Bible title them, and others as Living Ones. Regardless, these Living Creatures are in complete harmony with Jesus, and instrumental in the judgments as the seals are opened for instance. Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. Then in Rev 5:9 we read of them singing with the 24 elders: And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; Some Bibles use the word “Men” instead of “Us” referring to the Living Creatures due to preconceived ideas of what they are as if they are not the redeemed themselves. They and the 24 elders are the only ones present with Jesus when He receives His own throne in Rev 4:2. These constitute the first part of the first resurrection I refer to as the Pre-trib rapture. Larry 2 Quote Rev 5:9. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God (Some bibles say redeemed men to God) by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. Again realize that these are with Jesus in heaven prior to the tribulation. Sister - Yes, they were in heaven before the tribulation, but to be exact they were there when John saw the vision. That was around 70AD. John witnessed the Lamb opening up the Seals. He also witnessed the witnesses who were there. John was present in the Spirit when this big event actually took place. Larry 2 - Yes, in our time we know John wrote of those in Revelation Chapters Four & Five around 70 AD, but as I have attempted to show that John was caught forward in time in Spirit to the Lord’s Day, that future time of 2000 years plus when Jesus will take over as the Almighty. Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. In mat 28:18 we read of Jesus having all power given Him: All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Being in the position of the Almighty is about as much all power as it gets. Larry 2 Quote The twenty-four elders represent the dead in Christ who rose first for being faithful unto death (Rev 2:10) Sister - They were not being tried, they had already overcome! They were there, not just in the spirit like John was, but were really there,.... and if they (the 24 elders) were redeemed from men, then they are men who have been risen already. When they were raised, I don't know? It would have to have happened all at once when the last apostle died. Larry 2 – Saints whose bodies sleep are alive in spirit with the Lord in heaven the moment they die. 2 Cor 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. We which are alive shall be caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. 1 Thes 4:16-17. Sister - Well John was the last apostle alive from that lot, because he was the youngest. Is he one of them? Did he see himself there? or did he miss out because he was needed here on earth to record these things? He was very much loved by the Lord and he didn't mention that he recognized anyone, probably because they all look different. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, so those 24 elders would be in a perfect changed spiritual body. These are the questions that have rattled my mind for a very long time, and I was hoping somebody would go there. Larry 2 – Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Dear sister, I do not know the extent of this reward to the twelve apostles operating as judges over the world during the millennium. I’ve heard different opinions such as them being part of the Kingdom before the Church, and I read of John the Baptist below and he says of himself he does not qualify to be in the bride of Christ as the friend of Jesus. Luk 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he. Joh 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. If you have some ideas on this I’m sure willing to listen. Sister - James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. Please consider that the apostles are the foundation on which was built upon the corner stone. They are the chosen vessels made of gold. The creme of the crop. It must be them there. They are a kind of firstfruit with Christ. They are separate, not included in the other resurrection, because they are the foundation and they were with Christ from the beginning. Because of them, the truth was spread. It was their labour, ...their blood, sweat and tears alongside Christ and after him. There were 12 apostles who were chosen by the Lord, and there must be another 12 apostles included in there... We just don't know who they are yet. We only see these 24 elders there, no one else at this stage, because the rest come another 2000 odd years later. There are more firstfruits to come in the mass resurrection at the Coming. These firstfruits are the 144,000. It is clear. They come just before the rest. So there are two groups yes, the 144,000 who followed the Lamb wheresoever he goes....(Christians), are the first group, and the second group are all the rest who died in Christ. Larry 2 – I’m of the opinion that the 144,000 are first fruits of Israel to Jesus. I’m sort of in the same boat when considering the apostles; I am just not sure at this time. Larry 2 Quote and the second group are the four beasts (Rev 4:6) that remained unto the coming of the Lord in the air for them, and were rewarded by being kept from the temptation (or trials & trouble) to come upon all the world by patiently keeping the word of God (Rev 3:10). Sister - The four beasts are created spiritual creatures like the angels. They are around the throne day and night, continually with God. They were created for this purpose. They are not men, nor does it say they were redeemed from men. Larry 2 - Again, the 4 living creatures say they are redeemed in the following scriptures. Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts AND four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; To believe the 24 elders are redeemed, the 4 Living creatures sing right along with them having that same claim. My thoughts – God bless you dear Sister in Jesus’ name.

It doesn't mess it up for me. I just see it differently. Given the above verses you quoted, where is Jesus in Revelation 5:3? And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it. Revelation 5:3 The purpose of Revelation 4 & 5 is to establish that Christ is the only one worthy to open the scroll. That's accomplished via a before and after scene. Also notice the change in the seven Spirits of God from one scene to the other. Before: Out from the throne come flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God; Revelation 4:5 After: And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. Revelation 5:6 I think it has something to do with this: But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. John 16:7 Again, where is Jesus in Revelation 5:3? Revelation is not strictly chronological. Last Daze - Given the above verses you quoted, where is Jesus in Revelation 5:3? Larry 2 - Jesus is sitting on His own newly set throne in Rev 4:2 among the 24 elders (Rev 4:4) and 4 living ones (Rev 4:6). I need to ask if you think Jesus is not the One sitting on His own throne here? Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. This is Jesus. The 24 elders confirm that Jesus is the One sitting on this throne in Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Last Daze - And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it. Revelation 5:3 Larry 2 – Oh but there is! Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. This is Jesus. Back to Jesus’ throne of Rev 4:2 Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. This is still Jesus. Last Daze - The purpose of Revelation 4 & 5 is to establish that Christ is the only one worthy to open the scroll. That's accomplished via a before and after scene. Also notice the change in the seven Spirits of God from one scene to the other. Before: Out from the throne come flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God; Revelation 4:5 After: And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. Revelation 5:6 Larry 2 – I do agree that context is establishing Jesus as the One worthy to open the book in His Father’s hand, but it goes further than that also. We notice that the Holy Spirit (The seven spirits) went into all the earth leading men into truth about Jesus, and even here He is expressing Jesus as that fullness of God. A dear brother in the Lord, Gene Hawkins made the following comment. “Seven horns and seven eyes" are a special reference to the power of Christ and the full wisdom that He has. I would also draw your attention to Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne. Last Daze – I think it has something to do with this: But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. John 16:7 Larry 2 – Where did Jesus go? To sit with His Father in His Father’s throne. Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Last Daze - Again, where is Jesus in Revelation 5:3? Revelation is not strictly chronological. Larry 2 – You are correct, especially beginning with Revelation Chapter Six where we find an index of future judgment. BUT, everything from Rev 4:1 is the future viewpoint of “I will shew thee things which must be hereafter,” and this is from the moment that Jesus begins His reign of a thousand years. Blessings

Everything from Rev 4:1 is the viewpoint of hereafter from the beginning of the Lord’s Day when Jesus starts His thousand year reign. Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. John describes the following appearing of saints after he is caught into heaven in Rev 4:1. John sees 24 elders (Rev 4:4), and 4 beasts or living ones in (Rev 4:6) with Jesus prior to the tribulation beginning. The second cohort of believers will be the Great Multitude raptured somewhere during the first half of the seven years of tribulation. Rev 7:14 . . These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. The third will be the 144,000 we see standing before the throne in the heavenly Jerusalem (Mount Sion Heb 12:22); the firstfruits to God out of the nation of Israel. These will be caught up just prior to the reign of the man of sin (Antichrist), the second half of the tribulation, or Jacob’s trouble. Someone suggested the two witnesses as possibly being two groups as another rapture, but I have not formed an opinion on that yet. Thanks. Still confused. You speak of three groups; are you saying that there will be three raptures or that there will be one rapture that produces those three groups? A simple answer would help. I'm sorry ghtan, there are seven churches judged in Revelation Chapters Two & Three, and they all get to heaven in stages. To get to heaven they must be caught up; dead or alive, and exactly in that order. First rapture - There are two of the churches represented which are Smyrna, and Philadelphia with Jesus when He receives His throne in Rev 4:2. To me they are those dead in Christ to rise first (Rev 2:10), and those alive when Jesus comes for them (Rev 3:10); these were kept from the temptation to come upon all the world. Second rapture - The Great Multitude caught up out of great tribulation (Rev 7:14). . . These are they which came out of great tribulation. (Rev 7:15) Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple . . Third rapture - The Man Child (Rev 12:5). The woman of Rev 12:1, brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. Who are these? Rev 14:1. And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion Heavenly Jerusalem Heb 12:22), and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. I have no idea if the two witnesses would be considered another rapture or not, and the reason I say this is because they don't seem to fit the order of the dead in Christ, and then those that remain alive of 1 Thes 4:16-17. Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. I hope this is a better example of what I am saying. Thanks.

I like this, and will add to its thought I hope. Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; IF SO be that we suffer (or endure) with him, that we may be also glorified together. Eph 1:21 (Jesus is) Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Hi again, I hope the following post can show the time event differences. Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. When was everything being shown John to be hereafter? John had been transported as it were to the day Jesus would take the Mat 28:18, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. It has to be evident at this present time He is not doing that as we see nations ruling in usurpation if He were using that power in the vision viewpoint of writing the things which are of Rev 1:19 which are events of this present time. That day is the Lord’s Day of Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter. The things which shall be hereafter, or the time beginning with the Lord’s Day is identical with Rev 4:1. It is there in the future John sees the two thrones; the one throne being set up of Rev 4:2 for Jesus that will begin His rule as King of kings, and Lord of lords. And the throne of God our Father who has the book . Rev 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. I think what you may be thinking of is below, and to me this is still prior to Jesus’ reign. Mar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. Would Jesus have had a throne when sitting Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. I may be saying all this in a way that just messes it all up for you, but thanks again for your thoughts on this. Blessings in Christ Jesus.

My understanding was that the trump is not a trumpet blast spoken of here, but an illustration of Jesus’ voice in magnitude. Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. I am interested in your thoughts of a later trumpet blown on the Day of Atonement after this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality according to 1 Cor 15:53. . Is it a trumpet or voice, and what is its significance? Thanks. Hi Larry, vs 53 refers to 2 different classes of believers: The corruptible refer to the people who died and have returned to dust.They will put on incorruption. We who are still alive in body will put on immortality. This last trumpet does not mean the end of this world but will sound when Jesus meet us in the air. Then the dead will be raised to incorruptible and we shall be changed. What a moment that we will be ,when the dead who are now dust (believers)shall be alive... Dear sister, to me the time of these prophesies are at the end of the millennium, and death will be no more. What do you think? 1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Sorry, I must have misunderstood you but I am still having difficulty following your scheme. It would help me if you clarify the following: (i) How many raptures do you envisage? (ii) Where in the text of Revelation do you see these raptures occurring? (iii) Who are raptured at each of these occasions? Thanks. Everything from Rev 4:1 is the viewpoint of hereafter from the beginning of the Lord’s Day when Jesus starts His thousand year reign. Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. John describes the following appearing of saints after he is caught into heaven in Rev 4:1. John sees 24 elders (Rev 4:4), and 4 beasts or living ones in (Rev 4:6) with Jesus prior to the tribulation beginning. The second cohort of believers will be the Great Multitude raptured somewhere during the first half of the seven years of tribulation. Rev 7:14 . . These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. The third will be the 144,000 we see standing before the throne in the heavenly Jerusalem (Mount Sion Heb 12:22); the firstfruits to God out of the nation of Israel. These will be caught up just prior to the reign of the man of sin (Antichrist), the second half of the tribulation, or Jacob’s trouble. Someone suggested the two witnesses as possibly being two groups as another rapture, but I have not formed an opinion on that yet. Thanks.

How do you explain the 24 elders being there before the Lamb had overcome? I may be misunderstanding what you're saying, but since the Lord's Day was two thousand years future from the point John was caught forward, John is seeing Jesus receive His own throne in Rev 4:2, and those of the Smyrna assembly with Him in heaven. If that's not what you're asking, please straighten me out. Are you saying that the One sitting on the throne in Rev 4 is Jesus and the 24 elders are from Smyrna? If so, what scriptures do you use to support that and who is sitting on the throne in Rev 5 where we also see the Lamb? Hi, and I would suggest that Jesus is no longer in His Father’s throne, but also has His throne own set in heaven in Rev 4:2. Rev 4:10-11 verifies that. Rev 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Col 1:16 For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Now our Father has not been displaced; He remains on His throne Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him (Our Father) that sat upon the throne. At this point Jesus begins His reign as God Almighty. Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. I know I can be repetitive with scripture, but it is so necessary after the slightest light is given us. The order of the resurrection regardless of the rank we occupy will be according to 1 Thes 4:16-17. The dead in Christ first, and then we which remain alive will be caught up with them. This formula remains consistent with Smyrna, Philadelphia, the Great Multitude, and the 144,000. Again the Smyrna assembly is commended, and in Rev 2:10 Jesus says of them: Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. These died before they went to heaven. Notice that they also had crowns, and in Rev 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him (Jesus) that sat on the throne , and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, . .