Vickilynn

Shalom Shlomo, So you're saying that the body AND soul are resurrected and rise? Can you please show me where you find that? All I see is glorified body, I can't find a reference to soul being resurrected. 1 Corinthians 15 The Resurrection Body 35But someone will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?" 36You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. 38But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. 39For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. 40There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another. 41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. 42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. 43It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. Mystery and Victory 50I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood) cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." 55 "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?" 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Shalom, Interesting replies!! Thank you BOTH so much! We all agree that upon our physical death as a Christian, our spirit goes immediately to Jesus. When all the "dead in Messiah shall rise" what rises is our "glorified body" (whatever that is, we don't know yet) BUT, now Shlomo and Phil, you both disagree on what happens to our soul. Can y'all help me understand where the soul goes according to the Scriptures? Shlomo says with Jesus, Phil says it died with the body.

Shalom Phil, Thank you for your reply, but I'm sorry, I don't quite understand your answer. You said our spirit goes to Jesus upon our physical death, right? Then, what part of us rises when "the dead in Messiah shall rise" according to 1 Thessalonians if our spirit is already with Him?

Shalom Shlomo! Hey, that sounds neat "Shalom Shlomo"! Thank you, yes, I am sorry, I should have qualified my terminology. Yes. Exactly. So, you're saying that what is raised according to 1 Thessalonians is a glorified BODY? (number 3) More specifically, what part of US rises with Jesus (if I understand your intent for the phrase "rises with Jesus"). Not what part of the Body, becuase the Body is one of the parts. It is that which we can be "absent from." Yes, it is our fleshly body that we are absent from, not the Body of the Messiah. Thank you for qualifying your answer. By the previously stated definitions, the temporary parts, 1) our Body and the extension of the body, our Soul. OK, just making sure I understand your answer. You are saying that our "spirit" goes to Jesus upon our physical death and our "glorified body" rises according to 1 Thessalonians? Right? The physical body and the soul dies at physical death, right? OR are you saying our body rises (it must be our glorified body) AND our soul rises when the "dead in Messiah shall rise"?

Shalom Y'all, We had an interesting discussion yesterday in our church group. The topic is death and "One Minute After You Die" as a Christian and the text was "Absent from the Body, Present with the L-rd." 2 Corinthians 5 8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. I KNOW we had a discussion on this recently, so please don't direct me there. I'm asking a sub-question of WHAT part of the Body rises with Jesus? Ok, here's the premise: Mankind is Body Spirit and Soul. What part dies? The Body. What part goes to be with Jesus at the moment of death? The Soul or Spirit? (PLEASE DON'T DEBATE WHETHER WE SLEEP AFTER DEATH! That's not what I'm asking. The premise pf this OP is that part of us go to be with Jesus at the moment of death, WHICH is it? Soul or Spirit? Please don't debate the premise!! Then, when the dead in Messiah shall rise, WHAT shall rise, the glorified body? The Soul? The Spirit? 1 Thessalonians 4 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17T hen we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Please give Biblical references. Thanks so much!!!

Shalom Suzanne, I never stated YOU mentioned the word "perfect", you don't see that in my post. I was simply stating a Biblical fact in response to your questions.

Shalom Axx, Sorry, people are not born smoking, nor is smoking addiction a result of anything BUT choice. Yes, there is a physical and mental addiction that occurs AFTER one's CHOICE, but this does not reflect the same circumstances as a true mentla illness or disorder, let's drop these Strawmen arguments! Not true. While I was in critical condition and dying, I was having chest pains. They could not determine if I was having an MI, so the "test" was to give me nitroglycerin and if I "felt" better, they would conclude I was having cardiac issues and proceed with that initial treatment. As it turned out, the nitro DID make me feel better and I was found later to have cardiac issues as a result of bleeding around the heart. So, don't tell me that a challenge of medication and assessing the symptoms is not standard medical protocol - it is. If one does truly have a seratonin imbalance, many times the SSRI will address the problem and the patient will see symptoms subside. Caveat: Many people with and without mental illness experience something called a "placebo effect" and so a medication challenge is not the only course of treatment, but it is a valid one. For someone who condemns the medical and psychiatric establishment, you sure use them to support your position when it suits your position, even though the argument has been proven to be false in this discussion. The same "qualified professionals" that you vilify and condemn as not knowing what they are talking about? Sorry, you can't have it both ways AXX. Yes, chemical imbalances exist. And no, just because the documentation is being disputed does not mean they don't exist. AGAIN: this is not the standard for diagnosing some illnesses that have no blood test or other diagnostic tests, (such as years ago, MS was thought to be "all in the patient's" head, the same as fibromyalgia). In these cases, certain disorders are ruled out by the tests they DO have and the patient undergoes trial treatment of symptoms. If the symptoms abate it carries a great deal if weight in the diagnosis. However AXX, I really think we are chasing a false topic here. The OP asks HOW we should treat these people? No one is ever going to convince you that these dear people are really ill because you absolutely refuse to accept the possibility. I know, from experience and training, that mental illnesses ARE true illness. Let's stop going around this mulberry bush of repeated the same things over and over (you say they are made up, I say they are real) and get to the REAL issue - HOW should these people be treated by Christians? Just telling them to repent of some nebulous "sin" is not the correct response according to the Scriptures.

Shalom Axx, Thank you Bro. I understand passion, believe me. Thank you for clarifying that you were not making a personal attack. No, I disagree. The psychiatric establishment does not call sin an illness, but rather identifies medical causations for mental illness. Now, I agree that some of the MEDICAL community has wrongly labeled addictions as diseases, but you and I agree that addictions are not diseases, so I don't see that we need to argue that fact. Because of my experience and because in addiction, one has the CHOICE (as you did to drink or not) and in true illness or disorder, the person cannot choose not to exhibit their behavior. Again, that is not the standard we are referring to here. There are plenty of diseases recognized NOW that had no physiological proof until a test was developed. Until it was people were told MS and other diseases "were all in their head" because no test could prove their claims that they were ill. The same with mental illness. The argument that no test exists does not negate the medical causation of the disease or disorder. I believe it is a disorder with a medical causation because the patient desires to NOT behave in the manner of OCD, yet they cannot control their behavior, even with repentance and trying with all their might, praying etc. I believe that many emotional disorders and mental illnesses are definitely chemically-related (being the body's lack of a balance of hormones etc.) and in those cases, medications DO help. I believe depression is the big one, as is Post-partum depression (caused by hormones). I've seen it working in the field of emergency medical response and in the lives of loved ones. Thank you Bro for editing that out!

Shalom Suzanne, Me too. Yet, none of us are perfect. Only Jesus is.

Shalom Suzanne, Each one can only answer for themselves and their own actions and intents before the L-rd. Are YOU one of these people?

Shalom JamiLea, I don't know that I can advise you except by what the Word of G-d says. I'll PM you for further discussion.

Shalom LadyJane, EXACTLY the point of this whole thread. Thank you and G-d bless you! May the L-rd touch your son and G-d's people stop condemning and start loving as Jesus would.

If psychiatric practitioners are not part of the "topic" concerning mental illness...then you understand less about mental illness than you think. Shalom Axx, Hey now, you don't know what I know and don't know so, please leave the personal barbs at the door, OK? You have an ax to grind with the psychiatric medical establishment and that's what not we're talking about. We're talking about the patients and our Christian reaction to them. And that has nothing to do with the topic at hand Axx. Addiction is not mental illness. OCD is not an addiction as you claim, it is an illness. You are the one who brought alcoholism into this and it doesn't apply because, as you yourself admit, alcoholism is an addiction, not an mental illness.

Shalom Karen, Well now, that's pretty rude and ungracious of you dear. What I don't want in this thread is you promoting casting out demons. THAT is off topic. Thank you.

Shalom Axx, No, I have to disagree with you there. It is not the truth, at least how I see it and have experienced it. Hey Axx, this is not a soapbox for rants against the psychiatric practitioners, OK? Please, let's stick to the topic at hand. Actually, her illness is not an addiction. And yes, you had a CHOICE to drink alcohol. This gal does not choose to be ill and she cannot repent of what she does not choose to do. She can repent for any sin, but this illness is not sin. This is the whole point of this thread.

Shalom Candi, Honey, WHAT are you talking about? Not all Christians do these things-- Shalom Candi, Then these questions don't apply to them. But, SOME Christians do act this way and it's important to talk about why.

Shalom Candi, Honey, WHAT are you talking about?

Shalom Axx, How can you honestly say that? This gal is not addicted, she is ill. She needs help. She cannot repent of what she has not willingly done. She no more can stop what she's doing than I could stop my cancer from killing my body. I am alive because G-d used medicine and drugs to help me. My OCD sister needs the same care.

Colossians 2:14 English Standard Version (ESV) 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. Cross references: 1. Colossians 2:14 : Acts 3:19 2. Colossians 2:14 : Rom 7:4 King James Version (KJV) 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; New American Standard Bible (NASB) 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and (B)He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Cross references: 1. Colossians 2:14 : Eph 2:15; Col 2:20 2. Colossians 2:14 : 1 Pet 2:24 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB) 14 He erased the certificate of debt, with its obligations, that was against us and opposed to us, and has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the cross. Cross references: 1. Colossians 2:14 : Lk 9:23; 23:26; Young's Literal Translation (YLT) 14having blotted out the handwriting in the ordinances that is against us, that was contrary to us, and he hath taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross;

Shalom, I love ALL the Word and have many favorites. It is ALIVE and LIVING! The more I am in His Word, the more I am in love with Him and His Word. I do especially love the Psalms. My life verse is: Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

Shalom, The OP once again, which deals with the SOLUTION to help these people:

Shalom Karen, Not me personally, but the thread and thank you for sticking to the OP topic and not opening up a separate debate on demon possession. That's not what we're talking about.

Shalom Karen, No dear, you are not, like it or not. Please read the OP post. You will see that this topic is not about your belief that something can be "cast out" from a Believer. This is about calling ill people sinners and telling them to repent. Again, as the OP of this thread, we are not promoting or debating your opinions about demon possession or anything that you think can be "cast out" of a Believer. It is not on topic and we won't go there. This thread has a specific topic as to why Christians will treat other Christians as SINNERS and tell them to repent when they are ill with mental disease. Viskilynn~so as OP you want only to address the problem of labeling people you THINK have "mental illness" as sinners and telling them they need to repent?? That is what the topic is about??? You don't want to cover the possible answer to help them?? I am not trying to cause controversy.. Blessings, Karen Shalom Karen, I believe you are. And you are trying to hijack this thread to promote your own agenda. You've been asked repeatedly by the OP to cease promoting your opinions about casting out demons and you refuse. That topic has nothing to do with this thread and won't be debated here as it hijacks the topic. We'll let the Mods handle this.

Shalom Karen, No dear, you are not, like it or not. Please read the OP post. You will see that this topic is not about your belief that something can be "cast out" from a Believer. This is about calling ill people sinners and telling them to repent. Again, as the OP of this thread, we are not promoting or debating your opinions about demon possession or anything that you think can be "cast out" of a Believer. It is not on topic and we won't go there. This thread has a specific topic as to why Christians will treat other Christians as SINNERS and tell them to repent when they are ill with mental disease.