Vickilynn

Shalom Suzanne, It IS the question, you should know that. YOU started this thread. Maybe you should read it again You entitled it" How Were the Jews Saved?". That is why I am relating this to SALVATION because that's what you asked. Why don't you start another thread on what you really want to say? It seems you had another agenda in mind, but the question you asked is about salvation. It has been answered : by grace through faith in Messiah

Shalom Suzanne, Salvation is by GRACE THROUGH FAITH. Not by anything we do. Period. However, once we are saved, we are to walk in obedience. if you're talking salvation, it is nothing other than GRACE THROUGH FAITH IN THE MESSIAH. This says it clearly - this is the only way of salvation: Ephesians 2 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works,so that no one may boast.

No. Faith (where salvation is concerned) is believing unto righteousness (Rom. 10:10). Obedience is the outworking of salvation and the evidence of faith. Shalom, Needed to be said again.

Shalom Suzanne, Then how about showing us some obedience by showing humbleness and gentleness in your posts rather than defensiveness? An apology and humbleness goes a long way when it is shown that condescension and condemnation are your norm. Instead of defending it by attacking other Believers.

"Jesus Christ And Him Crucified" I Hear Brother Shiloh357 Speaking Out Against Apparent Condescension Toward The Body By The Body. Romans 8:1 I Have Never Heard Him Condemn A Repentant Humble Believer. Mark 2:17 We Are Not To Rob God. We Have No Saving Works We Have No Brag Except In Jesus Christ And Him Crucified Ephesians 2:8-9 Our Job Is To Abide John 15:1-5 And To Love One Another John 15:12 And Yet Still Love One Another John 15:17 And When We Are Finished For The Day Philippians 2:3 Still Love One Another With Psalms And Hymns And Hearts Singing To Our Lord Ephesians 5:19 Hallelujah! Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING The LORD bless thee, and keep thee: The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace. And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 Love, Your Brother Joe Shalom Joe, Your posts always BLESS the Body of Messiah. Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Shalom Suzanne, Obedience also includes humbleness and gentleness. Edited to add: Suzanne, I addressed these comments to you in response to your "obedience" question.

I am not accusing you or Dennis or anyone in this thread of that, but there have been, on this board, those who believed that works are necessary for salvation. No, what I get riled over is the condescending tone in which these subjects are usually introduced and when you refuse to answer plain and simple questions that are put to you. You always introduce these subjects as if the rest of us are a bunch of godless pagans who lust after sin while YOU are standing as the only beacon of holiness standing against the tide of unrighteousness. You may not mean it that way, but that is how you come across. Let me tell you something Suzanne... I am not trying to brag or exalt myself, but just to give you some perspective of who you are speaking to, I am almost 41 yrs old and still a virgin. I have never been drunk, I do not drink, a cigarrette has never touched my lips, nor has any tobacco product. I have never used any drugs like cocaine, pot, or whatever. I have never even touched a woman intimately. I have never been arrested and have no record. I have never stolen anything in my life. 90% of the people on this board could not relate to how I live. I am a faithful, tithe paying member of my church. I have kept myself pure, and am more than qualified to discuss this issue. I live what I believe and I know all about the price and sacrifices that obedience to God brings with it. You need to stop acting like the rest of us in the church are just a bunching sin-loving heathens. It gets really, really old. Shalom Shiloh, I so appreciate you sharing about your life (and making yourself vulnerable to attacks). But, your testimony has greatly increased my faith as a Christian parent of 5. You are living the way that I pray my children will one day live and everyone keeps saying that in this world one cannot live as you, Shiloh, lives. You are a testament to the faithfulness of G-d in keeping you pure unto Himself. Thank you so much for sharing this, I know it wasn't easy. Also, since MY own testimony is one of living in sin until I became saved and then for many years afterwards, I see how you are standing as an example of G-d's forgiveness, as HE makes us righteous by faith and it is OUR responsibility to talk it out in obedience. Again, thank you.

Shalom JamiLea, Great post. Did you write this or did you find it some place?

Shalom, I have a talent to get people really upset with me, without even trying or meaning to It keeps me on my knees.

Shalom, Excellent.

Shalom Sierra, Of course it's about Scripture. That's the WHOLE topic - Scripture vs man's ways. And yet we have people saying they are going to do it any way so children will be "children", happy" and have "fun." Regardless of the fact that lying is a sin. If I know my child believes a lie and I do not correct that and replace the lie with the truth, YES, it is a sin. It is a sin to allow our children to believe a lie, if we do nothing to change that and teach them the truth. We are just as culpable and responsible as if WE told the lie ourselves. If our child believed they were born by the STORK bringing them and we did not correct that and tell them that G-d created them, yes, it's a sin to allow our children to believe a lie, especially that goes against Scripture.

Shalom Sierra and Ovedya, This false accusation is a "good point'? Ovedya, you a Moderator? Come on. I'm so surprised at your responses. What about saying we are "not being honest with ourselves" is right, truthful or a good point? You see, we have shown Scripture after Scripture proving that telling children Santa is real is not right. You all have not produced ONE Scripture that says it is OK to lie and deceive children. So, because we stand on G-d's Word, unwavering in the face of being called names and all sorts, and yet another false accusation is thrown and a Moderator says it's a "Good point'? Please then, prove by Scripture that we are not being honest with ourselves or anyone else. We are standing on Scripture. What is not being honest about that? Please prove your allegation. Please back it up with facts. Please, prove by Scripture that telling children that Santa is real, or allowing them to believe this lie is G-d's way. Please, just back it up with Scripture. That's what this is all about ...G-d's way or man's way.

Shalom Sierra, I'm sorry, but that is not the case. the question is, do we tell people to do what they want to do or to obey G-d's Word? I cannot "agree" that it is OK to lie to children, exalt a false god (idol) and refuse to walk in G-d's truth. It's a matter of walking in G-d's ways or man's. I cannot agree to walking in man's ways as the right way. Telling children than Santa is real violates Scripture. I can never agree that is the right thing for Christian parents to do. The true hypocrites are the ones saying it is fine to lie to children and disobey G-d's Word and expecting children not to lie.

Shalom Bib, You are correct and hit the issue spot on. The issue is willingly and knowingly CHOOSING to lie to our children. That is a slap in the face of our L-rd and Savior!

What's ITA? international time advantage? I'm tired again? it's totally awesome? Shalom Bib, I Totally Agree

Shalom Bib, I believe that would be an IDOL and telling children that this Santa (above) is real would be idolatry.

Shalom Emily Anne, Amen, I agree. Let's call it as it really is.

Then why has this thread gone on through 7 pages? Shalom, What you see is man's attempt to circumvent G-d's righteousness. I said there is no argument against the Biblical truth and there is none. But that doesn't stop people from trying for 7 pages.

So when my 5-year-old comes to me and asks me how babies are made and I tell her that "Mommy and daddy want to talk to you about that when you're a little older," it's a lie? There are age-appropriate conversations, in my opinion, and I have absolutely no qualms about being silent concerning certain subject matter until the time is right. Shalom Ovedya, Telling them it's not the right time to discuss something is not a lie. However, telling your child that they born by the STORK bringing them to your home would be a lie and a violation of Scripture, replacing the miracle of G-d's creation with a mythical thing. Exactly the same as lying about Santa.

Shalom Ovedya, The real issue is replacing Biblical truth with a lie. And THAT harms children, there is no argument. G-d's ways are righteous altogether and the Word says do not lie. That is what is inherently wrong with telling our children, or allowing our children to believe that Santa is real. This is what I cannot understand Christians ignoring. Let's cut through the other stuff and discuss the real issue - telling children that Santa is real violates Scripture on many levels. There is no good reason for a Christian parent to do that and no justification for doing so.

Shalom Bib, I don't know the word, (except I am thinking "hypocrite"?) but you raised an EXCELLENT point. As a Christian parent, I expect my children never to choose to lie, either by omission or commission. As a Christian parent, I answer to G-d for what I teach them or allow them to believe and I must walk in G-d's ways if I expect them to.

Shalom Ovedya, However, the OP is a very clear, well-balanced and Biblical exhortation that does NOT go overboard and people still argue against the truth in it. I pointed out above where the OP went overboard in the comparison between Santa Claus and the theory of evolution. Where do you get the idea that I'm arguing against the OP's original point? Shalom Ovedya, The OP did not go overboard at all, it is a valid comparison to telling our children lies or Biblical truth. I get the idea because you have posted repeatedly that you see nothing wrong with Christian parents telling their children that Santa is real and THAT is the opposite stand of the OP which points out why it is wrong to lie to our children in this way. It's either G-d's way or man's way.

Shalom Ovedya, However, the OP is a very clear, well-balanced and Biblical exhortation that does NOT go overboard and people still argue against the truth in it. Let's cut to the bare bones ... there is no argument against the Biblical truth and yet people are still arguing. Telling our children that Santa is real, or allowing them to believe it, is simply a lie and violates Scripture. There is no real argument. There is no reason to tell our children that Santa is real.

Shalom Emily Anne, THANK YOU! I honestly cannot for the life of me understand how people can argue against the OP's Biblical exhortation for us to teach our children the Biblical truth, not man's lies. I mean, how hard is that for a Christian to do to choose not to lie to our children and not let them believe that Santa is real? Not ONE of the arguments has any validity against the Scriptures which say plainly that we are not to lie to our children. Not ONE. And yet, people will post man's logic about this one issue but will rise up when it comes to other Biblical issues. Very sad indeed.

Shalom Ovedya, The answer is found in the OP (entitled "Christians, tell your children there is no Santa Claus") which specifically talks about not lying to children by telling them that Santa is real. This is THE TOPIC, not a secondary issue. And it's an important issue obviously by the responses.