Vickilynn

Shalom, Back to TOPIC..... Could ONE of you that oppose the OP please give me BIBLICAL support for CHOOSING to lie to your children by telling them that Santa is real? Can you support that choice by the Scriptures? Can you answer WHY it is OK to CHOOSE to lie (willfully sin) by lying when the Scriptures condemn it? And please don't give me man's reasons. We need to see a valid addressing of the Scriptures not to lie and why that is OK to disregard for telling kids Santa is real.

We at Grapevine Studies would like to wish you and your family a very Merry Christmas! This is a great time to remember the coming of our Savior as we look forward to His return! www.GrapevineStudies.com Migdal Edar When you picture the birth of Jesus Christ what comes to mind? A cave converted into a stable? A manger, with Mary and Joseph looking at Jesus? Or maybe you imagine barnyard animals looking at the newborn baby? The Bible gives us some details concerning the birth of Jesus but many things that we do not know, such as the location of the birth of Jesus. In this newsletter we would like to explore a possible location for the birth of Christ that we think you will find very interesting. In our recent research we have identified Migdal Eder as a possible location for the place of Jesus' birth. Migdal Edar is located about two miles south of Jerusalem on the road to Bethlehem. The Bible clearly states that Jesus was born in Bethlehem, but Bethlehem at the time of Jesus was larger and more spread out than modern day Bethlehem. Today Jerusalem and Bethlehem are separated by only six miles. Migdal Edar means "tower of the flock".[1] You might ask, "What flock?" The answer would be the flock that produced the lambs for sacrifice in the Temple at Jerusalem. In light of Jewish Law, under which Jesus was born (Galatians 4:4-5), this place would have been considered a "clean" location in which to give birth to the Messiah. It is also interesting to note that the shepherds were told to go to Bethlehem and there they would find the Messiah. The shepherds did not need to ask where in Bethlehem they would find the Child, for they knew about Migdal Edar (Luke 2:11). The "sign" given by the angels, was that He would be lying in a manger and dressed in swaddling cloths (Luke 2:12). During this time of year we often ponder the events surrounding the coming of our Savior. Migdal Edar was dedicated to producing perfect lambs for the temple sacrifices. It is our reminder that Jesus, the perfect Lamb of God, came to be the final sacrifice for our sins. In my studies I have found some interesting information about Migdal Edar. I have included the websites to a few interesting sites if you choose to study further. I have chosen these sites because of their information on Migdal Edar, but Grapevine Studies may not agree with all the beliefs or positions represented on the sites below. http://www.bible-truth.org/BirthPlaceofJesus.html http://www.zionshope.org/zionsfire/immanuel.html May the Lord bless you as you study His first coming and look forward to His second coming! Serving Him with Stick Figures, Dianna Wiebe This article may be freely reprinted or forwarded as long as the entire article and postscript are included.

Shalom Z'ev Yochanan, I agree that different styles of music are different, however, I disagree that hard-driving music elicits "aggression." My son listens to hard-driving Christian rock and it is just as glorifying to G-d and just as pleasing to my son as my softer music. So, no, it does not matter the style to G-d, it only matters as a personal preference to people, and again, G-d created the music, so it is not evil without words.

so you are saying that calling someone a "schoolyard bully " is not being rude "yada yada" Shalom LadyPearTree, Out of my WHOLE post, this is the only thing you cared enough to respond to? Very sad indeed. How about THIS: But to argue that it is fine for Christian parents to tell children that Santa is real is completely contrary to the Scriptures. Thanks for the sarcasm too. You exemplified my point so well.

Shalom, Some people worry about satan too much Seriously. Look to G-d for the answers. The key is the MESSAGE. The words. DO they glorify G-d? If so, the style of the music is irrelevant. It is the message that makes something glorifying to G-d or not. You see, G-d created music not satan. Music in it's pure form cannot be evil since it is G-d's creation. Satan has no influence at that point. When man gets ahold of G-d's creation, then it can be used for either good or evil, but INHERENTLY, the music cannot be evil since G-d created it. So, simply check the message - see who it glorifies, what it says, what it promotes. If it is a Christian message, don't worry about the style.

Shalom, Exactly. Every word. By Grace through Faith in the Messiah.

Shalom, Amen and amen.

Shalom Ladypeartree, Please, let's get to the bottom line here. The OP is exhorting us Christian parents not to CHOOSE to lie to our children, (aka sin) by telling them that Santa is real. This is really the whole stand in a nutshell. No one is saying that if you were brought up this way yada yada, or if you didn't realize it was wrong yada yada, or anyone is going to hell yada yada, or we don't want children to have fun yada yada or there is anything wrong with celebrating Christmas on Dec 25 yada yada It's OK to lie because it's only "Santa" yada yada You raise your kids and I'll raise mine yada yada The bottom line is, if one is a Christian parent, they must know that lying is a sin according to the Scriptures. No one is FORCING parents to lie to their children and tell them Santa is real. There is no Biblical, logical or rational justification to support CHOOSING to lie to your children by telling them Santa is real. That is willfully sinning and as a Christian, we are told not to willfully sin. The good news is, that if you up to this point HAVE lied to your children by telling them Santa is real, you can now CHOOSE to rectify that and there is forgiveness for sin. But to argue that it is fine for Christian parents to tell children that Santa is real is completely contrary to the Scriptures. Word? What Word? You mean the Word of G-d? The one that we are telling you all states it is a sin to lie and if you tell your children that Santa is real it violates the Word of G-d? Yes, telling the truth from the Word, regardless of the arguments IS how to spread the Word to those who some here. They will see people willing to stand UP for the truth from G-d's Word against the arguments of man. People need to see this, for it is how we are to live, in His truth, not man's. BTW, the only ones getting rude and defensive are the ones opposing the OP. Think about it.

Shalom, Excellent, excellent post. Thank you and AMEN!!!!!!

Shalom Blien, I write articles for Christian's women's magazines/publications and I write cookbooks. Most of my writing is for Christian audiences, but only for women.

Shalom Ovedya, We are to state G-d's Word and not be swayed by man's logic and rationalizations. No place do you see me judging someone's heart. No place. However, I will stand up for the truth of the Scriptures which say plainly and without apology that we should not lie and especially not CHOOSE to lie. Let's please keep this about issues. I have never chosen to lie to my children. No, with all due respect, the thread is about telling your children about Santa Claus and lying to them by telling them he's real. Please read the OP again, it's all about Christmas and lying in that context by telling kids Santa is real. It is not about general lying to children. However, I will say that it is wrong to choose to lie to your children at any time about any thing because lying is a sin according to the Scriptures. And especially willfully lying. I choose not to lie to my kids. It is a choice to obey G-d. The question is choice. I choose not to lie to my children. The issues are clear: ~Telling children Santa is a real person is a lie. ~Lying is a sin. ~It is a CHOICE to lie. ~There is no justifying it. So this then negates G-d's Word that we should not choose to sin? So, your argument is that we CHOOSE to sin and it's OK because we all sin? I never said I did no sin. However, this thread is not about me, it is about G-d's Word which is clear - lying is a sin. You cannot change the facts that G-d's Word says that lying is a sin and to tell children that Santa is real is lying. Any way you play it, the facts remain the same because it's a CHOICE.

Shalom Ovedya, If the Bible says NOT to do it, THAT is our reality. We are sinning if we do. The Bible says to teach right doctrine, not teach others to lie. No, we are all not perfect, no one said we are, but we are to teach and walk in the truth, not lies. We are not to teach that it's OK to lie under certain circumstances. G-d says it's wrong to lie, and it is. That cannot be argued or rationalized away. If you say that G-d didn't mean it when He said "Do not Lie", then you could also say that He didn't mean it when He said "Do not commit adultery" or He didn't mean it when He said "those who call on the name of the L-rd will be saved." You either believe G-d's Word or you don't. You either commit to obey or you don't. THAT'S reality. It's a choice. No one is being forced to lie to their kids and tell them Santa is real. It's ridiculous to defend the choice to willfully lie. It's the same as defending the choice to willfully engage in any other sin. It's a sin according to the Bible, pure and simple and there is no rationalization to do it. Because that's the topic of this thread. If you want to start a "should parents lie to their kids thread" then we would discuss other instances. But since this is about the lie of Santa, I believe it is right to stay on this topic, don't you? That's not true in my case. I just told you why above. I'm not judging anyone's "condition." No one is being forced to tell their children that Santa is real. It is a choice to lie and deceive and disobey G-d's Word. But just because it's a fun thing to do, or it's been done for generations, or it ruffles feathers doesn't make it any less a lie and against G-d's Word. We either believe His Word or we don't. I do. Really? You don't believe lying is a sin according to G-d's Word? Or are you making rationalizations because it's "Santa"? We cannot pick and choose what we obey. G-d's Word is Holy, He is Holy and we either obey or we do not. Does the Word say that there is an exception to "do not lie" if it is lying about Santa being real? How can you say there is nothing inherently wrong with lying? Is this G-d's Word or not? Colossians 3: 9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices 10and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of(K) its creator. Ephesians 4 25 Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another.

Shalom Smalcald, Absolutely incorrect. I NOW celebrate Yeshua's birth, and I do that because I am a Christian. Not because I was raised a Jew. It all depends on whether we truly believe the Word of G-d is G-d's Word and we should obey it rather than man. Telling someone that Santa is real is a lie and there is no way to make it not a lie. The question is, whom do we serve? If we serve G-d, we will not lie.

Shalom LFW, No, it all depends on whom you choose to serve. Man, or G-d? I was raised Jewish so Christmas holds nothing for me but bad memories. However, when I gave my life to Yeshua and committed to following Him AND HIS WORD, I meant it. I do not rationalize sin and call it good. I celebrate the incarnation of the Son of G-d, not some jolly fat guy. I refuse to lie to my kids and I refuse to gloss over when other parents say there is nothing wrong with lying to kids. That's NOT what the Bible says. BTW, no one said anything about going to hell.

Those that only celebrate Jesus on Christmas are doing themselves a great disservice, and not honoring Christ at all. Every day we should celebrate Jesus. I believe that this problem starts in the pulpits of churches. Please remember, though, not to make such sweeping generalizations. You are a Christian, do you also not celebrate Christ's birth any other time of year? It is true of some, maybe many, Christians, but not all. Wayne, Teaching your child that someone exists, and they don't, is a lie. Telling your children the story of Santa, as a myth, is not a lie, any more than telling them about Snow White. As far as I know, no one believes Snow White really lives, or ever lived, in a little house in the woods with seven men of short stature. Idols: Anything that is more important to you than God. If your Christmas tree is more important to you than God then yes, it has become an idol. Shalom Bib, Good post!

Then neither should a parent tell their children those "little white lies" about adult things - like where babies come, for example. Shalom Ovedya, Strawman argument. Who said anyone should tell "white lies"? Lying is a sin, pure and simple. It is called a sin in the Scriptures. You cannot rationalize it away. It is something we should not do if we are Christians.

Shalom Emily Anne, Exactly. It's amazing how many people will take those verses in Jeremiah *out of context* and apply them where they do not apply. We certainly don't make an IDOL our of our Christmas tree, in fact, we use an evergreen to symbolize that Yeshua brought us eternal life. And we place lights on the tree to symbolize that Yeshua is the Light of the World. And we give gifts to each other because the wise men brought gifts to the King. Then what about the commandment not to create images of things in the heavens nor on the earth, to take them for ourselves (paraphrase)? Isn't the taking of a tree, or any other iconic figure and adding focus to it pretty much the same thing? Does simply attaching a "Christian" label to it make it okay, or are we just intentionally deceiving ourselves - making idol worshi palatable? How is that any different then the Catholic ritual of praying to saints, or adorning depictions of them in their places of worship? Shalom Ovedya, To whom are you addressing your questions, Emily Anne or myself? I'll answer for myself. No, we don't "focus" on the tree. It is not an "icon", it is not a 'graven image" it is something G-d created. It is not the focus of our celebration, Yeshua is. There is nothing inherently wrong with a tre. There is nothing Scripturally forbidding a tree being in our home being part of our celebration. I would say that is an incorrect application of that verse. Let's look at the actual verse and see how it applies please.

Shalom, To further clarify, to LIE mans to tell a falsehood.To deceive When a parents tells a child that Santa is real, this is a lie, a falsehood, a deception. There is no way to rationalize this as something good.

Shalom LFW, Actually, that's not true. If you tell your child that Santa is REAL, that is a lie. It is not a conviction, it is not an opinion. If you tell your children that Santa is real, there is no other word for it than lie, which is a sin, whether you are "convicted" or not. It is Scripture not to lie. We don't have the choice to lie because we want to. Telling someone that santa is real cannot be justified or rationalized away and whether one "feels convicted" or not, the Word of G-d stands.

Shalom, The Chronological History of the Christmas Tree St. Boniface Story Why do we have a decorated Christmas Tree? In the 7th century a monk from Crediton, Devonshire, went to Germany to teach the Word of God. He did many good works there, and spent much time in Thuringia, an area which was to become the cradle of the Christmas Decoration Industry. Legend has it that he used the triangular shape of the Fir Tree to describe the Holy Trinity of God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The converted people began to revere the Fir tree as God's Tree, as they had previously revered the Oak. By the 12th century it was being hung, upside-down, from ceilings at Christmastime in Central Europe, as a symbol of Christianity. The first decorated tree was at Riga in Latvia, in 1510. In the early 16th century, Martin Luther is said to have decorated a small Christmas Tree with candles, to show his children how the stars twinkled through the dark night. Luther's tree Christmas Markets In the mid 16th century, Christmas markets were set up in German towns, to provide everything from gifts, food and more practical things such as a knife grinder to sharpen the knife to carve the Christmas Goose! At these fairs, bakers made shaped gingerbreads and wax ornaments for people to buy as souvenirs of the fair, and take home to hang on their Christmas Trees. The best record we have is that of a visitor to Strasbourg in 1601. He records a tree decorated with "wafers and golden sugar-twists (Barleysugar) and paper flowers of all colours". The early trees were biblically symbolic of the Paradise Tree in the Garden of Eden. The many food items were symbols of Plenty, the flowers, originally only red (for Knowledge) and White (for Innocence). Tinsel Tinsel was invented in Germany around 1610. At that time real silver was used, and machines were invented which pulled the silver out into the wafer thin strips for tinsel. Silver was durable, but tarnished quickly, especially with candlelight. Attempts were made to use a mixture of lead and tin, but this was heavy and tended to break under its own weight so was not so practical. So silver was used for tinsel right up to the mid-20th century. The First English Trees The Christmas Tree first came to England with the Georgian Kings who came from Germany. At this time also, German Merchants living in England decorated their homes with a Christmas Tree. The British public were not fond of the German Monarchy, so did not copy the fashions at Court, which is why the Christmas Tree did not establish in Britain at that time. A few families did have Christmas trees however, probably more from the influence of their German neighbours than from the Royal Court. Decorating a Victorian household The decorations were Tinsels, silver wire ornaments, candles and small beads. All these had been manufactured in Germany and East Europe since the 17th century. The custom was to have several small trees on tables, one for each member of the family, with that persons gifts stacked on the table under the tree. (more here) http://www.christmasarchives.com/trees.html

Shalom, Colossians 3: 9: Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices 10and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.

Shalom, I DID read the whole post and that's exactly my response. We don't tell our children that fictional stories are REAL. People want to justify and rationalize lying to children and it just does not hold water against the Scriptures. Bottom line is, if we tell children that santa is real, we are lying and the Bible calls that a sin. There is no justification or rationalization that will change that.

Shalom, PM Marnie, she works in the publishing business and she can direct you where to get the best info. I'm a writer, but not for children's books and I don't know beans about the publishing end, I even have my own proofreader!

QUOTE(Rufus of Cyrene @ Nov 29 2007, 02:47 PM) As for celebrating December 25 as Jesus' birthday, why not? It's as good a date as any. It doesn't matter whether Jesus was born on that date or in the springtime, because we're not celebrating just the fact of His birth; we're celebrating what Joseph Mohr described in the third verse of "Silent Night" as "the dawn of redeeming grace." That's worth having a party over. Shalom Rufus, AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!