Vickilynn

Shalom Stephen, Amen!!

Shalom, That's because you're wrong on BOTH counts! Don't waste your brain on trying to pigeon-hole me SW. Just read the words I write instead of trying to make me fit into a box. No SW. The topic is SABBATH. I refuse to let you hijack this thread with your debate on the OT laws. That issue is not the topic of this thread. Start another thread if you want that debate. So, start one. But don't use this thread to do it. We obviously cannot have a "reasonable" thread if you won't read what I am actually writing instead of adding your own spin to it. I did not say that at all. In fact, I refuted it the several times you threw it at me. As far as "dangerous ground", well, that's really funny. I stand on the Word of G-d. There could be no more stable and desirable ground to be on.

vickilyn He would say Have I not told you...referring to His word Shalom Patricia, You obviously did not read what I wrote. You misread my words and jumped in feet first. And, please, do NOT presume to speak for my L-rd what you do not know. You are not equipped to answer for G-d. I am aghast that you would think you have the right to post to me "He would say..." especially, not knowing what you're talking about. I asked because, no one knows EVERYTHING about the Scripture or about Jesus. What I said was: I'd ask Him to teach me all the things about Himself and the Word that I don't know and to lead me to those to whom I could share the Gospel with who would accept.

Shalom Ger, I made the claim and backed it up. You have yet to do that. I already did. You haven't. Kabbalah DOES contradict Scripture, THAT is the point. And the conversation is over because you cannot prove your false assertion that Kabbalah is good. It is not. It is occult. If you disagree with that, instead of attacking me, you should be proving YOUR point. But, obviously you can't, and we all knew that since Kabbalah is NOT good, or Scriptural.

Ah, here is where we will most likely part ways and simply have to agree to disagree. IF the assumption is "scripture alone," as it certainly is within Protestantism, then anything beyond Protestant canon is going to be considered irrelevant at best, of the devil at worst, whether it is Kabbalah or Talmud or canon law or even the writings of the Apostolic Fathers. You may correct me if I have jumped to conclusions, but my guess at this point is that likely you don't even consider any group which does not accept "scripture alone" to be Christian, including Catholics, Orthodox, and most Messianic Jews. And on THAT note, the basis of the disagreement being found... and found to be irreconcilable... I say shalom. Shalom, So, you're backing out because you can't prove your stand? That's what I thought. OK by me. Yes, you have jumped to conclusions about my beliefs, but I expect that based on your Unscriptural postings. If you refuse to acknowledge the authority of Scripture, I sincerely question your assertion that you are born-again. Yes, until we have a foundation on which to discuss, which is the Scriptures, we have no place to discuss anything.

Shalom Ger, I've posted my reasons and substantiated by objections to Kabbalah. You have not refuted them by Scripture, nor have you proven them wrong. Thus, they stand. Not true. You posted this, in ignorance of the Kabbalah: The article I posted shows WHY you should oppose it. You have yet to prove that Kabbalah does bring people closer to G-d, as you intimate here. Put up already and quit playing games. Instead of all your silly name-calling tactics, just PROVE there is nothing wrong with Kabbalah, it's as simple as that. If you can't, then you have nothing else to say of interest to this discussion. You must prove your stand, not tear down others without providing any substantiation other than you don't agree. I posted my reasons for my stand and there are no holes in it. Your turn.

Shalom, But we are talking about a BIBLICAL thing. The Sabbath has always been on the 7th day of the week in the Scriptures. The BIBLE is our source and our authority, not culture.

I'm just laughing. Gnosticism???? Would you trust what is said on a site devoted to smirching Messianic Judaism to get information right about Messianic Judaism? Shalom Ger, This site is devoted to preaching the truth from Scriptures. It denounces the falsehoods found in some Messianic teachings. You disagree that there are false doctrines with the MJ movement? Then, you haven't read much. Kabbalah is but ONE article here on the site. It's not dedicated to "smirching Kabbalah. Get your facts correct please. Do your homework before you throw around false accusations. YOU have not posted ONE thing from Kabbalah that makes it worthy to have anything to do with. Why don't you prove your stand instead of tearing down others who DO support their statements with truth?. As the old saying goes, Put up or..... Let's see your PROOF. Let's see you refute the ISSUES instead of name-calling and nebulous personal opinion statements.

Shalom SW, Of course it's a cop-out darling. I already did. Would you please read my replies? We are talking about the Sabbath SW. Please stay on topic. No, I don't follow all the OT laws. Again, I already answered this. Because they don't all apply anymore. Some do and some don't. The Sabbath day is part of the 10 Commandments which DO still apply. Please stay on topic. Actually, that is not at all true. That is a misconception. That is not correct hermeneutics. The Bible must be interpreted as to the time, person, context etc. Not all the OT laws still apply, but the Sabbath does. Please focus on the Sabbath. Well, then you would be wrong. When you come to my home and observe what we do for the Sabbath, THEN you can make that judgment. Until then, you are making false assumptions based on ignorance. There are no penalties. You are confused and mistaken. I answer all questions put to me. And who is kidding! I'm serious. Will you please stop making false accusations and bringing in Straw Man arguments and stay on topic? Ummm, go back and read EXACTLY what I wrote SW. That's not it. And I do believe what I wrote, or I wouldn't have written it.

Shalom Saved!! Welcome to Worthy!!!! Shalom again Saved, While this is a nice thought and people may CHOOSE to follow these recommendations, they are not commands from G-d. They are man's addition to the Bible While this a very true statement, there is nothing in Leviticus or any place else in the Scriptures that says we cannot eat milk and meat together at the same meal. We should go by what the Bible says in Leviticus and elsewhere because it is G-d's wisdom. BUT, G-d never says to not eat milk and meat together. This is the point.

Shalom Eddie, I know you are new here, but you've made a flase assumption and false judgment. Please don't do that. You don't know me and you certainly aren't equipped to judge whether I'm upset or not. Please don't presume to tell me how I'm feeling, it is not a very Christian thing to do. You CAN ask if you are interested, but don't assume. For the record, I'm not upset at all. At least I wasn't until you made that false assumption and accusation without knowing me at all. Hi Vickilynn, Sorry about that, i stand corrected. Shalom Eddie, Thank you. Forgiven!

Shalom Eddie, Where I'm at in my theology? What does that mean? I'm not the one asking the question in this thread. I'm giving the Biblical answer. For the record, I have been studying this issue for 30 years and I believe what the Bible says about it and what I posted. What about you? Again, you assume that I am confused about the question. Another false assumption brother. I am convinced of what the Bible says about it, and it is reflected in the article I posted above. The "elect of G-d" and who you believe that to be has no bearing on the Sabbath day. May we please stay on topic? What about that the Bible says to pray for the Jews and to witness to them? What about that they will help usher in His return? Yes. But as the article I posted above points out so eloquently, "fulfilled" does not mean done away with. Jesus is the Sacrifice Lamb in the Passover and we are to KEEP the Passover (all the Church) in Jesus. Part of that is true. Another part is that Jesus walked out G-d's Word and served as our example to do the same in Him. Please read the article above, it is very good and hopefully will open your eyes a bit.

Shalom Eddie, I know you are new here, but you've made a false assumption and false judgment. Please don't do that. You don't know me and you certainly aren't equipped to judge whether I'm upset or not. Please don't presume to tell me how I'm feeling, it is not a very Christian thing to do. You CAN ask if you are interested, but please don't assume. For the record, I'm not upset at all. At least I wasn't until you made that false assumption and accusation without knowing me at all.

CaritateDei' date='Aug 16 2007, 02:18 PM' said: There is more to a fundamentalist than just taking the Bible literally. In fact, that is not the only thing that happens. Many fundamentalists DO NOT take the Bible literally at all in many cases. I merely said earlier that it was a litmus test. The following are sure signs that you are Fundamentalist: Shalom, In YOUR opinion. The term is subjective CD. This is your list, according to your understanding of the word. Let's make that very clear here. I believe one CANNOT be a Fundamentalist unless they take the Bible literally. CD said: Taking the Bible as the sole Christian Authority is the belief of the fundamentalist. Anything in addition is man-made and should not be regarded by the Christian. VL said: Actually, the Bible and the Holy Spirit, and they agree. CD said: There need not be rationalism in connection with the Bible because the Bible is the source of Truth. VL said: Hmmm, that's worded a little weird. I don't believe we need to discard rationalism in understanding the Scriptures, but yes, G-d's ways are higher than ours and His thoughts are not our thoughts. And some things that He does may not make sense to us now, but I believe He will reveal the answer in time, or when we see Him. One example is the death of my 3 1/2 year old child. CD said: The deity of Christ is known in each of us through the transforming power of his love in our lives, and what it says in the Bible. If we are Christian, we will not sin as much, and our heart will show it. If we claim to be Christian but do sin, we obviously have not fully accepted Christ and are not truly Christian. VL said: Yes and no. Yes to the first part, no to the second. If we claim to be Christian but do sin, we obviously have not fully accepted Christ and are not truly Christian. Not true. If we willfully and knowingly sin, we crucify Jesus anew. We can be truly a Christian and have accepted Messiah, but choose sin over Him. CD said: Christ was born of a Virgin, but that same Virgin was not always a Virgin. She had children later...those children being those whom Christ referred to as his brethren. VL said: Yes. CD said: Christ Died a substitutionary death for our sins. He not only took on our sins, but was actually punished by the Father in our stead. VL said: Again, a little weird. Yes and No. G-d did not punish Messiah. But Messiah "became sin" for us. CD said: Also, the insistance in a faith in Christ as personal Lord and Savior--the assurance of salvation to the individual, without regard to denomination, congregation, or label. The fundamentalist KNOWS when they were saved down to the hour and minute because the salvation came when that person accepted Christ. VL said: Again, yes to the first, no to the last statement. I know that I AM saved because I was Born-again, but I don't know remember the exact instant I was saved, day, hour minute. I believe the Scriptures say that one cannot be a Christian unless they are BORN-AGAIN which is a choice. CD said: Hell is escaped through this moment of salvation. VL said: As long as the person remains in the faith. I believe the Christian can walk away from their salvation and thus upon death, would go to Hell. CD said: The Rapture and the Tribulation are very real. This is another belief of the Fundamentalist. VL said: Yes, absolutely. The only questions are what is the timeframe of both. CD said: People mistake fundamentalism as not really a matter of theology but of pathology. "I became a fundamentalist because the other religions all made me upset!" They caim Fundamentalism is the fuel of hatred. The media does this constantly. That is EXTREMELY unfair, and inaccurate. The fundamentalist is a fundamentalist at his/her core due to doctrinal issues. VL said: EXACTLY! Very well-said I might add. CD said: These are the Fundamentals of faith. VL said: Again, in your opinion only. And no, I don't agree that all your opinions here are correct for the Fundamentalist and there are some lacking from your list. Things such as Communion and Baptism. CD said: If you buy into the above, you are a fundamentalist. If not, then you're not. VL said: Again, not true, since you are not the one to define the word or the faith. You have your opinions, but there are other opinions just as valid. I am not defined by your opinion of the word, or what you think the fundamentals of the faith are. But, I appreciate your list, it had SOME very good things in it, which are PART of the meaning, as I understand it.

Hi Vickilynn, Finally caught up with you Thank you for this post. We have been a long time in need of this. It's quite incredible how far one can err in interpreting scripture. The whole of Israel lives under these laws. I have no issue with anyone who wants to keep meat and milk separated but to say it's a sin not to do so is NOT what God told us. Blessings Shalom Hupo!! Hey Brother!! I owe you an email. I'm off to write it right now since you're online. I'm excited about #10 and #11. WOWEEEE! Amen, amen and amen!!! When we were in Israel, that's how we ate. And it's fine, by choice. But, it is not SIN not to eat that way. Amen!!!

Shalom, Devotion to Jesus and the things of G-d, including unapologetically and bravely living out the Scriptures regardless of the flack.

Shiloh, my bro: It's none of my business what anyone eats. But G-d says its his business. The very first sin ever committed was what someone put in their mouth. If someone is a Jew, part of Israel, they are set apart forever, whether they are a believer or not. They are part of a unique covenant with HaShem. A gentile can sit down to pork chops and there is no problem, no sin. Acts 15 made it crystal clear that gentile believers did not need to become Jews and come under the Mosaic covenant. But for someone already a Jew... it's another story. So I'm certainly not going to knock on anyone's door to see what they are eating. But neither am I doing to come into a forum and tell Jews that it doesn't matter what they eat. Shalom Ger, The Bible does not say we are not to eat meat and dairy together. You need to understand the difference between Biblical Kosher and Rabbinic Kosher. One is from G-d, one is from man. We do not follow the rabbis, we follow G-d. And thus we follow BIBLICAL Kosher, not rabbinic. Here is an excellent article from a Messianic Jew on the subject:

Shalom, Excellent points of rebuttal to SW's arguments:

Shalom SW, No, the Bible has not "freed" us from G-d's Word. The Ten Commandments still stand, all 10 of them. Jesus did not come to "abolish" the Law or the Prophets. And not "all" has been accomplished. Heaven and Earth have not passed away, so the Law still stands. Matthew 5 17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly, I say to you,until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. As for "keeping the Sabbath perfectly" what specifically do you accuse that we have not done? And how do you know? As I said, if all of the OT testaments laws given to Israel are still applicable for you today do you also subscribe to the penalties? Do you seriously believe you have kept the Sabbath perfectly? What about all of the other OT provisions? Pulleeze! Also your argument is with the Apostle and the God who inspired him and not me. sw Shalom, Pulleeeze! How ridiculous. I love it when people use this as a cop-out when they have no Scriptural fact to reply: "Also your argument is with the Apostle and the God who inspired him and not me." Right. Sorry, but YOUR argument is with Jesus, in the verses I posted above since HE said in His own Words that He did not come to abolish the Law. So, take it up with Him and not me. Not all the Laws of the OT are applicable for today, but the Sabbath is. So your "penalty" argument is actually a Straw Man. Focus on the Sabbath.

Shalom, I'd ask Him to teach me all the things about Himself and the Word that I don't know and to lead me to those to whom I could share the Gospel with who would accept.

i don't know what i'd ask him,,,so i'm going to mul that around in my head.. i used to think i knew ALL the questions i'd ask jesus.. but after losing both my sons,,one to a motorcycle accident and most recent the other to suicide,, and working thru the horrendous greif,,,,,,,up to now... and haveing to come to grips with the fact that god is NOT the author of evil or death.. and to forgive god the things i blamed him for after their deaths.. i don't reallly have any unanswered questions i want to ask him ... but i will think on this and tell you if i feel like it.. the reason god chose you for salvation dear one..is becasue he loves you and knew without his death on the cross no one could have eternal life...and he wants us in heaven with him... rainie Shalom Rainie, Bless your heart! May the L-rd of comfort pour out His comfort to you.

Shalom, Those who believe in observing the Sabbath would never employ others on the Sabbath. Christians who work for secular bosses should insist on ONE day for rest and worship. That has nothing to do with this topic though.

Shalom SW, No, the Bible has not "freed" us from G-d's Word. The Ten Commandments still stand, all 10 of them. Jesus did not come to "abolish" the Law or the Prophets. And not "all" has been accomplished. Heaven and Earth have not passed away, so the Law still stands. Matthew 5 17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly, I say to you,until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. As for "keeping the Sabbath perfectly" what specifically do you accuse that we have not done? And how do you know?

Shalom Nebulah, There is a lot out there, this is just one and it is written by a MESSIANIC JEW. http://www.seedofabraham.net/mystory.html This should satisfy Ger's request for Jewish lineage.

And the people said"AMEN"! Shalom, And are you too an SDA? Otherwise you would not say "Amen."