hupo

Wonderful! I would also suggest finding a good pastor who can help guide you through the Bible, do you have a church you attend regularly? We don't call it "church" in Israel but yes, I do attend a fellowship and we have wonderfull elders, Pastor and deputy-pastor(?) who are truely blessed and annointed. Are they really "good"? Only God knows that . There are other fellowships around us that I visit occasionly and they too seem to be on fire for the Lord. I'll tell you one thing I have found. "Studying" God's word through songs seems a very effective way. What I mean by that is that when I hear scripture being sang rather than read, the music seems to drown out my over inquisitive mind and God's word penetrates to a degree that no reading or studying seems to get to...

But her attitude is not what's offensive, Hupo. Do you mean that I should overlook the outer appearance and concentrate instead on this woman's heart? Well, it takes two to tango. I find all too often in my life that when I feel offended, there is something in me that isn't right. Something I don't like. All too often it has nothing to do with the "offending" person at all. God wants us to have a heart for each other. If I don't wash for a week and then go visit someone in their home, it would be offensive, and God would let me know that most likely. If I got lost in the jungle. Didn't wash for a week and someone found me and took me to their home. They wouldn't be offended by my smell. In both cases the smell is the same....bad.... but the offensive issue is not there. How come? I beg to differ, hupo. I don't have anything within myself that causes revulsion when confronted with filth; other than I don't think others should be subjected to our laziness and lack of caring what anyone thinks. I do have a heart for this person and I'm still trying to figure out how to help I truly believe she's without a clue about what other's think and say about her. It's a shame because she isn't accepted by a lot of people because of her appearance and living conditions. Maybe I'm just splitting hairs, but if I am lazy and lack caring for others around me, then it is that very attitude that is offensive and not the actual filthiness. You obviously have a heart for this person you mention. You say she isn't accepted. If she doesn't see this or care, that would be offensive to God. Not the actual state of cleanliness. It goes without saying that if one cares, they would do something about their physical conduct. The caring (or not) is what counts with God. Don't you think? A person can be physically ugly and it wouldn't be offensive in God's eyes. "He has no form or comeliness and when we see Him there is no beauty that we should desire Him. He is despised and rejected by men (Isaiah 53:2-3)

Funny you should mention this. I just got a whole bunch of Audio Bible Cds from a friend and started listening to them.

Can you explain what you mean when you say that reading didn't "work for you"? Or that you had a bad reading experience? What does that mean? Maybe I shouldn't have expectations but when I read the Bible on and off for 10 years, I would expect something to happen. I don't find reading does anything for my faith in God. Music does. Reading doesn't. To be sure, it gives me quite a headache. By bad experience I mean what I wrote above. The one thing I ever really heard God say to me was "Why don't you live your life rather than explain it!" Reading for me is all about explaining things. Doesn't work. I don't understand God any more for all the reading I've done. I know it doesn't sound very good but hey, I was requested to be a witness, not an atorney or laywer.

Your answer actually saddens me. I don't have alot of time to reply right now, I'll have more time later. But I was wondering...do you like to read? Could I recommend a book to you? Here it is: Click Here: The Francis Schaeffer Trilogy This is an author whose works have changed my life, and these are three of his most influential works put into one book. Please, if you never read another book...read this one. This will give you very good, solid, sound reasons to believe in the Judeo-Christian God as opposed to any other "god" in any other religion out there. Schaeffer knew alot about other religions and compares other philosophies and worldviews to Christianity and shows you why you can trust God. One of the main reasons that I don't like reading is that it just doen't work for me. I've been told many times that i'm ignoring the truth, that I refuse to concider facts etc, etc.... I stated my faith in Yeshua 10 years ago and have been struggling ever since to make that statement be an honest one. It saddens me to say that I don't feel i'm there yet...... One of the reasons I came to this board is to see how my thoughts and feelings regarding God and Yeshua, reflect from a good mirror. The discussions here are real for me but there is a lot behind it that is reflected and thrown back at me, things I need to check out with God. I'm not accusing the board. On the contrary, I find the reflections a good way to manage this struggle. I will go check the book you mentioned even with my bad reading experience....... who knows? Thank you for your response and recomendation

Then your belief is wavy and highly subject to failure. That's essentially what it boils down to. You don't think teleological, cosmological, and anthropological studies render evidence of God? Yes, my belief is wavy and highly subject to failure. I don't recall stating it is anything else. If I still have it, it's no thanks to my works. God is in charge here. I just put my trust in Him. You are right. I could be in for a rude awakening, as someone mentioned. As for evidence of God in the above studies. I don't believe in "evidence" of God. Period. I either believe in Him or not. No evidence whatsoever.

You can't use logic to draw an illogical conclusion. Likewise, proper logic cannot be contradictory, or else it would be illogical. Thus, wither you or Kabowd are wrong, you both can't be correct. People do not follow the logic of God because man is fallen. Our minds are carnal and incomplete. Because of this, man often chooses to ignore the logic that points to God. Even Romans 1 states there is enough evidence to show man: 1) There is a God 2) That man has a major problem All philosophies hinge on this belief - that man came from somewhere, and that there is a problem with man. I guess you are logically correct. But back to the topic: I still don't find Faith logical. There wasn't anything that made sense in following God and Yeshua. Something out there made me decide to believe. Is it logical? If it is, I don't understand that kind of logic. I don't see the proof of God you seem to see in scripture. So to answer the topic question, I believe, because I decided to believe, using that free choice God gave me. No logic.

Thanks for explaining that. Doesn't sound like something to strive for. I hope the reason I get tired is something mundane like eyes getting old... Thanks again for this post

Again, this isn't biblical We are taught in Scripture that we should love God with all of our hearts, souls and our minds (Matt. 22:37). God created our minds and gave us the ability to use logic and reason. Nowhwere in Scripture are we taught that faith is a "leap" into the area of non-reason. Remember that faith requires trust. In order to trust, one must first have the knowledge of truth. In order to have the knowledge of truth, one must first have the capability to determine what is true and what is false. This requires the use of logic. Logic does not mean we understand everything or comprehend everything. Instead, logic is the means or the tool by which we pursue understanding. Here is a topic where this was discussed in more depth that may help you: God is Logical? This verse actually helps prove my point First, notice it says faith is the "assurance". The Greek word is hupostasis , and some translations may say "substance" because it gives the idea of something solid or firm like a foundation. Second, notice the word "conviction". The Greek word used here is elegchos, and it literally means "proof" or "evidence" (something that can be proven), for instance evidence presented in a court of law. This verse is not suggesting we are to have a "blind" faith. Just because something isn't seen with the eyes does not mean it doesn't exist. A common example of this is the wind. We know that wind exists, not because we see it, but because we see the evidence of it and how it affects other things we do see. I recently went to visit Biloxi/Gulport and saw the devastation left by Hurricane Katrina. All along the coast there is debri, foundations without homes on them, twisted metal and wood...and many of the palm trees along the beach are bent over so far they are almost parallel to the ground. Those trees stand as a testament to what powerful winds can do. They are the elegchos. Does that help explain it? Third, if we read through Hebrews 11 further, it helps drive this point home. For instance, look at the next couple of verses: "For by it [faith] the men of old gained approval. By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible." (Notice that understanding involves the use of our minds, reason and logic) And just a little further down in verse 6, we find this: "And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him." This verse teaches that faith means believing, first, that God exists...that He is. How are we supposed to determine whether or not He exists without the use of our minds? Throughout Scripture we are admonished to renew our minds, pursue wisdom, understanding, to grow in knowledge...all of which would be impossible to do if faith had no connection with our minds. Also, in 1 Peter 3:15 we are told that we should be ready at all times to give an answer for the hope that is within us. Literally translated it means to give evidence, to present the reasons why we believe. This is a command. Again, if this were not possible, why would we be commanded to do this? We have evidence for God in creation, in our personal testimony, but even beyond that there is evidence of the historical Jesus as well. If you read the account of Paul speaking at Mars Hill (In Acts 17 i think), he gives a great example on how to give evidence to support your beliefs. Check out these verses too: Titus 1:9, Acts 1:3, Acts 17:2-4, Acts 17:17, Acts 18:4, or Acts 19:8. If we can't find reasons to support our faith then we are failing to live by the command to love God with all of our minds, and subsequently we'll be failing at making disciples and bringing His redemption to our culture and world. I sure can't compete with your Logical post. It takes logic to respond to logic. My logic tells me God cannot be understood with our rational minds. I don't have any proof that God exists or that He doesn't exist. Scripture is not proof unless you believe scripture is devine. Otherwise it's just another book. I just don't understand, if there are facts to prove God's existance, how come so many don't believe in Him, in these "facts"?

Not true. This is not a biblical definition of faith at all. Faith has reasons behind it. It must have reasons or it isn't true, biblical faith. Well, to simplify it I'll say, God cannot be known. If God could be proved, it wouldn't be God. Just to clarify things, by "knowing" I mean the logical type, with facts and figures. One can know God in one's heart but not in one's head. Heb 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. So, the reasons that faith "must" have, what would they be?

But her attitude is not what's offensive, Hupo. Do you mean that I should overlook the outer appearance and concentrate instead on this woman's heart? Well, it takes two to tango. I find all too often in my life that when I feel offended, there is something in me that isn't right. Something I don't like. All too often it has nothing to do with the "offending" person at all. God wants us to have a heart for each other. If I don't wash for a week and then go visit someone in their home, it would be offensive, and God would let me know that most likely. If I got lost in the jungle. Didn't wash for a week and someone found me and took me to their home. They wouldn't be offended by my smell. In both cases the smell is the same....bad.... but the offensive issue is not there. How come?

I think you have the answer in your very question: Is it offensive to God to be physically offensive to your fellow man? I would say that being offensive to your fellow man IS offensive to God. It's not the physical cleanlyness but the attitude or where one's heart is.

Great question Before coming to faith a friend of mine told me that faith is a decision. To me it just didn't make any sense at all!! You either believe or you don't and how can you believe in something you didn't believe in? etc...etc...... But you know what? Today I believe because I Decided to believe. I proved myself wrong and found to my surprise that Faith is a decision. I must admit I felt a right hypocrite for the first 2-3 months till I realized I actually believe. Now. Did I breainwash myself? Did I force myself in any way? Is it really true? I really can't tell. If I give you a rational logical answer (if at all possible), it would be knowledge and not faith. Faith is only relevant when you don't know because if you do know, there is no need for believing, is there? Just my messy two cents

True, and this is a good reason for studying the Bible, even if it's just to know where all these scriptures that you mentioned, are. THanks and God bless

What on earth is ADHD? sounds like a new scripting language for windows Vista It's mainly the Bible, and the reason for that is i've given up reading anything else. I get too tired too quickly now days

Yes, there are ways to reading. I did read the bible in a year and almsot swore not to do it again. I tried reading verses at random. tried reading according to topic. tried following a word around.... I haven't yet found the right "remedy" THanks Bethany, At fellowship today I took notes as to your suggestion. If it won't work, it won't do any harm What does work is reading scripture with music attached, in other words, songs do speak to me. I'll have to see what I can do with that THanks and God bless

He sure does Yes reading is definatly a good way to get to know God, but I don't think it's the only way. On the other hand, having another way, is no excuse not to read. Re: this topic..... I do read. I don't enjoy it. (Yet!)

It might seem off-topic at first, but it isn't. Just bear with me. Mountain bike riding has been a hobby of mine for quite a while. Having a somewhat tight Friday schedule I had to find a route that would fit, and I did. I ride up the Naftali Hills towards the city of Zfat and it's all of a 60-90 minute ride up and 15-20 minutes back down. I can make it as strenuous as I want and go as fast or as easy as I feel like. Riding uphill on a bike lends itself to plenty of meditation time and I find myself "discussing" things with the Holy Spirit. Today, the topic was.....yes, right!.... "Reading and Enjoying God's word". There are parallels between Reading the Bible and riding uphill on a mountain bike. Did you know that? First of all, it's something you have to decide to do consciously, I mean, you don't usually just find yourself on a bike riding uphill, do you? Then there is the long haul. It can be quite a drag, depending at the angle you are looking at it from. If I were to describe the uphill ride moment by moment it would sound something like "Push the left foot down on the peddle till you feel the bike moving forward. Release your left foot and push down with the right one. Now push again with the left....push with the right...the left..the right...left...right...left...ri....le...r...l...z..z.z.z.zz.zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz " Can you imagine describing the whole 60 minutes like this??!! Doesn't it sound the most boring thing you can think of? I find the Bible similar in the sense that if I "study" it word for word...I just fall asleep, yet the journey as a whole can be fascinating. How do I read the Bible as a whole and not bit by bit, or word by word..... that's a trick I haven't managed yet, but today's bike ride showed me the direction. Well it wasn't the bike ride obviously. It was the Holy Spirit guiding me. ( by the way, I was wondering if "Reading " and "Riding " were related by any "coincedence" ..... ) I must confess that the topic itself came about and came into focus after discussing it here in the forum for a while now. Whether you gave answers, suggestions, opinions, even disagreements (?) or just something that came to mind. It was all beneficial and I would say things seem to be on the move. Maybe I'm getting a bit over excited about it but can you blame me? Suddenly there is a light at the end of the tunnel and it's not a train! So thank you all. You are a blessing !

When we become born again, we have the Holy Spirit resident within us, and we are to read the Word of God, and learn of Him and of His ways so we can obey Him and grow in Him. There isn't an option, for when you refuse, you will starve to death spiritually. There is no good reason to not read the Word of God! I must differ with you on this. Where there is no option, there be only robots, not human beings. God has given us free choice and if He never intervened in some of the most horendous atrocities in history, He will not intervene here. It is that gift of free choice and the way we excercise it, that determines our walk with God and Yeshua. No. We are responsible to live before God in a way that He would have us live--we are responsible to God to grow up in Him, to mature and feed on His Word. There is no option. A Christian in name only will get a rude awakening one day, "Depart from me, for I never knew you." The Holy Spirit in you yearns for things of God, and reading the Bible is one way to satisfy that hunger. If you don't yearn, then you need to ask God why and make that right with Him. To deny the choice, the option, is to deny an amazing gift God gave us. Let me clear something before we get tangled up in an unnecesary argument. I think we mean the same thing in different words. I wrote: "It is that gift of free choice and the way we excercise it, that determines our walk with God and Yeshua." and you wrote: "We are responsible to live before God in a way that He would have us live--we are responsible to God to grow up in Him, to mature and feed on His Word" Together, this means: The way we excercise that free choice is our responsibility to live the way God intended us to. The fact that I might have a rude awakening some day, hasn't yet given me the enthusiasm for reading scripture. I could say that from now on I will religiously read every morning. I could say that i'm going to work on that enthusiasm. I could say plenty of things that would make it look "good". I could actually throw every concievable lie into this conversation. I choose not to. This is where I'm at.

When we become born again, we have the Holy Spirit resident within us, and we are to read the Word of God, and learn of Him and of His ways so we can obey Him and grow in Him. There isn't an option, for when you refuse, you will starve to death spiritually. There is no good reason to not read the Word of God! I must differ with you on this. Where there is no option, there be only robots, not human beings. God has given us free choice and if He never intervened in some of the most horendous atrocities in history, He will not intervene here. It is that gift of free choice and the way we excercise it, that determines our walk with God and Yeshua.

I was searching for God, Not Yeshua. Looking to make the contact, It was suggested to me that I ask out loud for Yeshua to come into my life. That was something "I was definatly not going to do. It wasn't for me!". I was in the car one night, driving home. My daughter was tired so I had the silence to myself. I don't know what happened, I just remember asking Yeshua to come into my life and the next second, stopping the car in shock at what I had just said. He's been here ever since. So you see. I didn't turn to Yeshua... He turned to me

I feel like praying here. No words. Your signiture is very touching

Whew! There is no way I am going to be able to respond to all these posts. I would like to but to be practical I'll just say that you are all very encouraging. This forum is truely blessed. May God keep His spirit in this forum even as it is right now

Yes, I did start several "studies" but they never lasted. I know the Lord is working. I trust Him on this but it's still frustrating. Come to think of it, scripture in music is somehow clearer than plain reading. We have a small worship team and I play guitar there. That is the part that really speaks to me. Thanks Shilo, you somehow managed to bring that point up God bless

Hugs are a very good "explanation" knowing all this makes it more painful. I feel He wants an intimate relation and His Word is a big part of it sure do Me? Sin?! Well, you see Crystal, humor is a great cop-out. I'm sure I have sin in my life. I don't always see it but things crop up all the time. Confessing helps, yes. It clears the air so to speak Feeding the black dog is something I find myself doing all too often, (and I apologize to black dogs everywhere), When I am aware of it, things move. When I'm not aware, the spirit works "behind my back". I'm saying all this because it doesn't make sense the way I feel about God, Yeshua and the Holy Spirit and still don't enjoy reading THE Word. I actually grew up with the OT which is more home ground to me than the NT. I have a better grasp of the OT whereas the NT sometimes drives me nuts, especialy Paul with his book-long-sentances, or revelations which seems like someone on heavy drugs. Yes, I tired the chat and had a few encouraging sessions there Your post is very encouraging. Just hearing others who have had all kinds of issues, gives a picture of hope. The situation is not fixed. It is fluid and ever growing and flowing. You are a true blessing, sister God bless you and yours