Phil.2:12

No one who has limited or no experience with demonic presence in the spiritual plane is quite prepared to deal with the demons that live there. That's what maturing in the Lord is all about. Scripture plainly says that you have authority in the name of Jesus to deal with them and they must obey the Name of Jesus. If you command them in the Name of Jesus, they must obey, whether they want to or not. Never forget that Jesus, in John 8:44 called Satan a liar and the father of lies. Jesus added that there is no truth in Satan at all. Therefore, there can be no truth in any of his demonic force. Satan, because he makes a lie look like the truth, is also called "the great deceiver", which is a fact that both you and your daughter need to keep in mind. The frightening appearances your daughter sees is not really a given fact on the spiritual plane. If either you or your daughter saw the demons for what they really were, you would bust out laughing at their pitiful state. They are deceptions, pure and simple, dressed up to look fierce in order to terrorize you. Demons live on terror, for the entire kingdom of darkness is built on power and in order to gain power, the demons must terrorize those beneath them as well as humans. Even though all of this is very new to you, you must get past that and recognize that as a born-again child of God you do have the power, in the Name of Jesus, to destroy the works of Satan and his demonic horde. That you have been a born-again believer for some 44 years and do not know these things is mute testimony to the fact that you have been ill-served by the pastors in your life whose #1 job is to help their congregation mature in the Lord. This is not to to throw any ill-will on you, it just illustrates that those whom God entrusted to your spiritual maturation really let you down. Had they done the thing our Heavenly Father really wanted them doing, you would now be equipped to handle these demons that are coming at you. You need to immediately realize that these demons, no matter how fierce or terrible they look are simply deceptions that the enemy is overwhelming you with. Since you and especially your daughter are terrified by these demons with no real power, that seems to indicate the presence of something in your lives that gives these demons permission to manifest themselves to you. In your case, I would suspect religious traditions that you have been taught instead of being matured more and more in the Lord. Your insistence that a man needs to take authority over the demons for it to be effective tells me that your roots are within the Pentecostal traditions. Jesus did not give that power that is in His Name to just men, more specifically the men who would be preachers, He gave it to all who called upon His Name and became born-again children in His Father's family. There are many women in my Father's family, my wife and my daughters included. My oldest daughter, also married to an unbeliever, has exercised that authority often in her own home because she learned that the power was not a "male" thing but was available to all of our Father's children. As for the reason why your daughter is so troubled by the demons, and can actually see them in the spiritual plane, I have no real answer. However, if the source of this permission your daughter has given to the demonic world is truly discovered, it will probably reveal a time in her life where she willingly gave access to her life by the demonic horde. A fascination with the old "game", the Oiuja board, would do the trick. So would a seance where spirits are summoned. Or other seemingly "harmless" forays into the realm of darkness can also be points of entry where the demonic horde is given free reign to come into the individuals lives. Once given that access, the demonic horde will fight tooth and toenail to keep that access even if the individual no longer does the things that permitted the access in the first place. Once in a person's life, the demons won't go easily at all. Spiritual dynamite is needed to dislodge them and get rid of them. Jesus, when He came down from the Mount of Transfiguration and had to cast the demon out of that poor boy the disciples could not help, gave us the recipe for this spiritual dynamite when He told His disciples that they could only do this through prayer and fasting. By prayer, Jesus wasn't talking about us beating our gums about how we really wanted these demons to leave, He meant a heart-to-heart talk with our Heavenly Father. Since our Father is a spiritual being, we must talk heart-to-heart with Him by using His language, also called by us "the unknown tongue". As we pray in the Spirit, He will reveal things to our spiritual man that we had never seen before frpom His Word. The fasting part allows us to deny our flesh so that we can concentrate on our Father and our heart-to-heart we are engaged in. Both need to be done so that our Heavenly Father can build the spiritual dynamite that is needed in our spiritual man, yet not destroy us in the blast. I hope this has helped in someway.

Absolutely Fiosh, When the demonic forces on the spirital plane see us beginning to take on the appearance of Jesus, they began to pull out all the stops and come at us full bore, for we threaten their very existence. Not that we destroy them, but we can definitely make their lives quite a bit more miserable and prevent them from carrying out the plans of their master, Satan. This, in turn, causes them even more anguish and they will do whatever it takes to stop us. However, the more we look like Jesus on the spiritual plane, the harder it becomes for them to truly stop us. Had not Jesus defeated their boss Satan, and by extension all of them, they would seem to have the upper hand in this spiritual war. But because Jesus defeated them on the spiritual plane, so can we when we fight them on the same plane. The more we mature spiritually, the more we look like Jesus to them and the stronger we are in the spiritual power it takes to defeat the most vicious of demons.

I don't even know what you are talking about. I haven't heard so much as a word about him, which probably speaks volumes about the sheltered life I'm living.

So, just how do you treat 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18? Is this also a FALSE DOCTRINE ? Inquring minds want to know!

Actually Noah's Ark landed on Mt.Ararat, which is in northern Turkey, not Iran.

Some of these statements are not true for me, as I do not believe that all science is opposed to a life of faith, because there is much science that does not contradict basic biblical beliefs. Also, the academic study of the Bible may not stop us from taking God at His Word. It depends on what the theological view of the institution is and who is doing the teaching. Not all schools and universities are hopelessly liberal in their view of God and theology in general. I am somewhat put out by the "all-or-never" tone of the survey. As far as being a fundamentalist is concerned, that simply means that your faith rests on the basic fundamentals found in Scripture, rather than the explaination of the Scriptures the various denominations (especially the main line ones) come up with. Your faith is based more on what God says than what any one particular denomination may be offering and it is not a bad thing.

You are absolutely correct! (blush). Thanks for jogging my memory stick .

Hi Ron; You must have drawn quite close to Jesus during your time off as you have observed some things that simply pass by others who are not as spiritually sensitive. Not only are there problems here when brothers and sisters in the Lord talk to each other, but on other boards on other websites as well. I was a member of a forum on another website for a while until the flaming of the bretheren toward each other became too much. I didn't quit, just didn't post any more. Perhaps that is why I got an e-mail from the person who started the board informing all the people still registered that the board was being shut down permanently because the original intent of the forum had ceased to exist. Too much flaming and claiming "I am right, you dummy" followed by an immediate post from the opposite view stating "You don't know what you're talking about, dumb donkey". I have not seen that level of hostility on this board yet, but I have seen some testiness between posters in some threads. That's why I admire your spiritual sensitivity and your willingness to point out our commom problem. I, for one, will try harder to watch my posting and try to post only those things which the Holy Spirit shares with me. Posting in the flesh will get you into trouble every time and I'm really not looking forward to this board going the way of the last board I was a member of. There are many fine people posting here and I look forward to reading their posts in the future Thanks again Ron.

Solomon, who wrote the book called Ecclesiastes, said "The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun" (Ecclesiastes 1:9, KJV). He sure was right in that observation, for the current flap we are seeing concerning this "new secret" is nothing new at all. It is the same deceptive doctrine that has been around for millenia. In the 1st Century it was called "Gnosticism" from the Greek word "ginosko" which means "to know". These were the people who went around saying "I know something you don't know" or words to that effect. Reminds me of schoolyard taunts where children run around and taunt each other by saying something like "I know something you don't know". Always, these people have a "secret" or a "key" to understanding the greater mysteries of our universe. It's just Satan using his "superior knowledge" deception once again dressed up in modern clothes and a new label. Truly Solomon was right, there is no new thing under the sun, just ancient deceptions recycled again all for the purpose of getting man's eyes off God Almighty and onto his deceptions. The more Satan succeeds in deceiving men and women, the less he has to worry about those people finding God in a personal relationship through Jesus. The Apostles, especially Paul were fierce in combating this deception from the pits of hell. And so should we. The only "key" in existence that can unlock the mysteries of God is the Holy Spirit. Whenever you see anything trying to take the place of the Holy Spirit in unlocking any of God's mysteries, mark it down; that's a deception right from the pits of hell. By the way, please ignore the post from "NONE". That post was created by a loose nut typing on a keyboard and I apologize for my "nuttieness".

The translation being used to show the word "penance" is probably the Douay version translated out of the latin Vulgate which, in turn, was translated by Jerome from the original Greek centirues ago. The Douay version came out in the 1600's, about the same time as the King James English version made it's appearance and is considered to be the only authoritative version for Roman Catholics. When we try to justify doctrine on the basis of one word, "penance" for example, and do not consult the original Greek for the Greek meaning of that particular word, we often times wind up in a mess, theologically speaking. Dr. A.T. Roertson, in his "Word Pictures in the New Testament" Vol.2 states that the Greek definition of the word translated "Penance" in the Douay version and "repent" in other versions (like KJV or NIV) means "to change mind and conduct" and is in the active voice meaning a linear action that keeps on going, just like the Energizer Bunny. The result is a lifestyle that continues to change one's mind and conduct in accordance with Paul's instructions to continually mortify (or kill) the deeds of the flesh. The syntax is a third class conditional clause which means that the outcome of the mortification of the deeds of the flesh is undetermined, but the chances are quite good that they will be mortified. In the Douay version, at least as practiced by the RC church the clause "except ye do penance" is seen as a point in time, (aorist tense) not a continuous linear action (present tense). If the Douay was interpreted as the Greek wrote it, then it would mean that the penance would continue on with no end in sight, which would become exponentally burdensome with each penance that was added to the confessors list of penances. Best to go back to the original languages whenever there is a dispute with what a word means in Scripture.

I'll take a stab at answering that question, Fiosh. We take up our cross when we deny our natural man the pleasures it seeks, which Paul in Romans talked about as always being at odds with our spiritual man. Indeed, the entire 8th chapter of Romans deals with this royal battle being fought between our soul and our spirit. Paul states the heart of the problem thus "Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Romans 8:12-13, KJV, emphasis added). In his letter to the Galatian church, Paul tells them that he is crucified with Christ (Galatians 2:20) indicating that he has,indeed, mortified or killed the wants and desires of the natural man and this has allowed him to mature in his spiritual man, becoming (as he pointed out in 2 Corinthians 3:18) more like Jesus as he goes from glory to glory. Our cross we bear daily would be that maturation process whereby we deny our fleshly man the things he wants and allow the spiritual man to mature, going from one level of maturity (glory) to the next level of maturity (glory) so that in the end, we will actually look just like Jesus on the spiritual plane, where the demons of Satan (as well as Satan himself) live and carry out their work. This situation is illustrated in Acts 16 where the seven sons of Scvea tried to perform an exorcisim on a man possessed of a demon In the name of Jesus that Paul preached. The outcome wasn't pretty since the demon knew Paul and he knew Jesus, but he didn't recognize the seven sons of Sceva. The demon whipped the guys so bad that they fled the house they were in wearing nothing but their birthday suits, the first streaking event recorded in Scripture. So it seems that the more we deny the deeds of our flesh (mortify or kill), the more we will mature in our Lord and the more the authority of Jesus will be recognized on the spiritual plane when we invoke it. This, to me, is what it means to "take up my cross and follow Jesus".

I am definitely encouraged by the fact that many of the posters on this thread "got" the point that was being made, namely if the Holy Spirit is the ONLY source of knowledge a human can draw on to undersrtand the Word of God, then 2 or 200 individuals (or more) drawing on the wisdom of the Holy Spirit for their understanding (and nothing else, no traditions, doctrines, etc.) would all teach the same things from God's Word. In other words, there would no difference in what was being taught apart from the personalities of the individuals God would use to share His Word with so they could share it with others. The Bible itself is mute testimony to this principle in practice. The Old Testament took centuries to write and God used numerous individuals to accomplish His task, yet there is no disagreement in the Old Testament between the writers on the message God gave them. The New Testament took only one century, but again several authors were used by God and none of them disagreed with the other writers, since ALL of the writers were writing as the Holy Spirit taught them. Now, just what does this say about all the traditions and denominational doctrines that are constantly being displayed on this and other boards? Where is the Holy Spirit in any of the heated exchanges that occur between individuals? Take it one step further, where was the Holy Spirit when the various denominations were formed? When we post on these boards, are we led by the Holy Spirit or by our own fleshly passions and desires? These are just some more points to ponder.

You are absolutely right, EricH, our interpretations of Holy Scripture often times are not without error, however in this hypothetical situation, the two missionaries are depending solely on the Holy Spirit for the interpretation of the Scriptures they are reading. Their personal feelings, etc. play no part in this scenario.

No, Thaddaeus, I recognize that error has crept into the traditions of men and the doctrines of denominations. It is precisely the type of thinking that you are exhibiting in this thread that reflects the position of the Orthodox church. To think that no error can be in any of your doctrines or traditions down through the centuries is either arrogance to the extreme or sheer ignorance. No denomination is perfect, including the Orthodox.

Remember, Biblicist, I stipulated that neither missionary had any doctrines or traditions to fall back on. All they had to teach them was the Holy Spirit. All of the posters on this board, as well as other boards, come to the boards with their own filter pack through which they view the situation. These hypothetical missionaries had no filter packs at all to look through, only the Holy Spirit and what He revealed.

And Joe, your point is?

Consider the following situation Two missionaries, totally unfamiliar with each other, plan to preach and teach the Word of God along the banks of the Amazon river in Brazil. One takes the left bank and one takes the right bank but neither is aware of the missionary on the opposite bank. These two brave souls have no denominational ties of any sort, hence they are completely free of all the doctrines and traditions of men. All they have is the Word of God and the Holy Spirit. They are both totally dependant on the Holy Spirit to understand the Word of God since neither of them has a theological background. They are totally on their own and totally unaware of each other. Their only teacher is the Holy Spirit which teaches both equally throughout their long journey up the Amazon. These two missionaries continue up the Amazon to the very headwaters of the mighty Amazon only to find that the headwaters of the Amazon is nothing but a small stream at this point. Both missionaries stay on their respective banks without ever crossing and thereby run the risk of meeting each other. Finally, they come to a tribe that freely hunts and lives on both banks of the Amazon headwaters. The left bank missionary as well as the right bank missonary continue to teach the Word of God to the members of this tribe, each thinking that they are the only missionary teaching the members of this tribe. What would be the outcome of these two separate teaching styles, one from the left bank missionary and one from the right bank missionary on this tribe that is common to both banks of the river? Remember, both missionaries were guided solely by the Holy Spirit and had only the Word of God to teach from and both are totally lacking in any of the doctrines and traditions of any denomination. When the tribal people began to compare notes on what the two missionaries taught, would there be two distinct versions of the Word of God taught, the left bank version and the right bank version, or would both versions be identical?

The doctrines or the words of Scripture describe what the Apostles taught. To keep locked into them is being faithful to the Gospel once given. One should not resort to or attempt to reinterpret them to mean something not ever understood. I am Orthodox. For a while, Thaddaeus, I was a professional wedding photographer. One of the weddings I covered was in the Orthodox church here in town. In the foyer, I noticed two sand boxes, one on each side of the main door into the sanctuary and about waist high. The Priest was handy and the wedding still had some 30 minutes before it started. So, I asked the priest what the purpose of the two receptacles of sand were for and he replied that this was where the people put out the candles they had brought with them. I asked what the candles signified and he said that they were used to light the path from the parishioner's home to the church and back again after the service was over. When I pointed out that we have electricity and flashlights today, he reminded me that electricity has only been around for about 100 years, so it is still quite new as compared with the age of the Orthodox church. From this, I quickly learned that change within the Orthodox church happens at a pace that would barely equal the pace of the world's slowest glacier. Not that a slow pace is a bad thing, for (when dealing with the Word of God) change for change's sake is generally a bad thing. However change that comes from a revelation given by the Holy Spirit is always good. That there is error in the doctrines and traditions of man is self evident. One only has to read boards like this one to see compelling arguments on both sides of nearly any position. However God is not the author of confusion. What He said, He meant. And it is the Holy Spirit's job to show us the Truth in what God said, not the traditions and doctrines of our denomination. Your denomination believes in the saving power of baptism, a position not supported by Scripture so yes, you would argue that the new birth into the family of God when one accepts Jesus must include baptism. May I ask you a question? Do you believe that Jesus would have done everything necessary to secure our salvation, leaving nothing undone? If you answer yes, then you are immediately faced with a dilemma, if you say no, then Jesus left the work of salvation unfinished and has never returned to finish the job. If this be the case, as Paul so eloquently stated in his first letter to the Corinthians "If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable" (1 Cor. 15:19, KJV). In other words, if our salvation was left unfinished because Jesus did not do everything necessary for our salvation, then we who are Born-Again believers in Jesus are simply duped fools leading a miserable lifestyle, especially as judged by the world's standard. But we know that Jesus did finish Salvation's work, therefore we of all men, are the most blessed. There are several denominations that teach baptism is necessary for salvation, if one is not baptized they cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. But these people are actually on the horns of a dilemma. They firmly believe that Jesus did everything necessary to ensure our salvation, that no work was left undone. Then, in reading the Word of God, they come across the Gospel of John, chapter four. This chapter starts out by saying "When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John (though Jesus himself baptized not, but His disciples) He left Judea and departed again into Galilee" (John 4:1-3, KJV). Whoa, there, before we continue reading this fascinating account of the travels of Jesus, let's go back to that parenthetical phrase that John inserted in this passage. Remember, the Word of God is fully inspired by the Holy Spirit and is the very words and thoughts of God Almighty recorded by men who wrote under the unction of the Holy Spirit. So, this parenthetical phrase John inserts in verse 2 was actually the words of God as given to John by the Holy Spirit. In other words, God is emphatically pointing our that Jesus baptized no one, as His disciples were the ones baptizing the believers. Now if Jesus did everything necessary to secure our salvation and baptism is necessary for salvation, why did Jesus not baptize anyone? If baptism has saving power, and the disciples were entrusted to apply this saving power to those who believed instead of Jesus, doesn't it follow that a disciple could have atoned for our sins on the Cross as well? Frankly I can't remember the name of any disciple who hung on a cross to pay my sin debt. The conclusion is simple, baptism has no salvation power and this is born out by the thief on the cross who asked Jesus for forgiveness and Jesus responded that the thief would be in paradise (the holding place for all going to Heaven after their sin debt had been paid by Jesus) that very day. When was this thief baptized? And who did it? Jesus is on the Cross, the disciples had scattered, except for John, so who would perform the baptism of the thief hanging on the cross? Here then are the horns of your dilemma, you who believe that water baptism has salvation power. On the one horn, you have Jesus doing everything needed to ensure your salvation, the work of salvation is complete. On the other horn, you have an eyewitness account that Jesus never baptized anyone, He delegated that act to His disciples. Now, how do you square these two horns. If Jesus did everything needed to be done to ensure our salvation yet He never baptized, how do you explain that there's salvation power in water baptism? If such were the case, wouldn't Jesus have been right there in the water baptizing as many as He could to be sure that the salvation power contained in water baptism was theirs before He paid their sin debt on the Cross? Just how do those of you who believe that baptism is necessary for salvation explain these things? Inquiring minds want to know.

Actually, Fiosh, I see salvation as a two part gift. The first part is God's gift to us, the payment of our sin debt by the shed blood of Jesus on the cross and the second part is our gift to God, doing the works that Jesus did when He was here on earth just like He said in John 14:12. The first part we've got down pat, but we are really struggling with our gift. When you prayerfully study the "marching orders" of Jesus found in Luke 4:15-19 (based in Isaiah 61:1), especially verse 18, you become aware that Jesus was sent to earth for more than paying our sin debt. In fact, 1 John 3:8 says "...for this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil". Couple that truth with John 14:12 where Jesus says "Verily, verily, I say unto you. He that believeth on Me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father". When you couple these two verses together, you begin to see that our Heavenly Father really wants His children destroying the works of the devil, just as His Son did. Now the crowning work of the devil was in giving his sin nature to mankind through Adam, thus causing the creation of God (man and woman) to be cut off from their rightful place in Heaven with God Almighty. This is not a work of the devil that we can do anythintg about but the destruction of this work by Jesus while in hell was accomplished and forms the basis for the free gift God so willingly offers to us. So, we have the same "marching orders" that Jesus had there in Luke 4:15-19. However, our gift to God, the destruction of the works of the devil we can accomplish, is seriously lacking. I have been around Christians as a born-again believer for over 47 years, and during that time, I have crossed paths with some of the biggest hitters on our team (or so their press reports say), yet I have never seen one dead person raised from the dead nor seen one missing limb totally restored. That these things have occurred is testified to in various writings around the world, but I have not personally seen it, nor have I ever been used by God to perform these feats thereby destroying the very works of the devil which caused these conditions in the first place. This is indeed, a sad commentary. I, as of this date, am not fulfilling the words of Jesus in John 14:12, and thus, I am not giving back to my Heavenly Father what He wants from me. Therefore, my walk with the Lord must lead to a stronger vessel, a more mature vessel, so that God could pour His power through this vessel and began using me to destroy the works of the devil just as Jesus said I could. I've got a long way to go and few years in which to fully mature as God wants me to before I stand before Him in Heaven. Would that I had understood this mission God wants me to accomplish when I was still a young or even middle-aged man! No sense in crying over spilt milk, just pick it up now and march steadily forward, allowing the Holy Spirit to mature me to the point where my Father can use me in destroying more works of the devil than I am now doing. That is how I visualize my walk with Jesus and how I see what my Father really expects of me. One believer's perspective on the Walk we take with Jesus while still alive on this planet -- Wayne.

Welcome to the board, Phil. I would be interested in what "Scriptural position" brought you out of Calvinism's OSAS position and into what you believe today. Hi Horizoneast, and thanks for the welcome. The "Scriptural position" that taught me God's perspective on OSAS runs throughout the whole Bible. God actually used the teaching method described in Isaiah 28:9-11. BTW, verse 11 is describing the phenomenon of the unknown tongue and can be further enlightened by Zechariah 3:9. Briefly put, the Holy Spirit first led me to the Seven Letters to the Seven Churches of Revelation 3. He directed me to the letter to the church at Sardis, particularly verse 5, where Jesus clearly states that for those who overcome, He will not blot out their name from the Book of Life. Now this letter to Sardis was written to a church full of Born-Again Christians. This was not a church for lost souls, such as the pagan temples all around Sardis. The Holy Spirit then showed me that you cannot blot out a name that had never been written, so these names (which were in danger of being blotted out) actually were in the Lamb's Book of Life, which says that they really had accepted Jesus as Savior at some point in thier life. To confirm this, the Holy Spirit took me to Exodus 32:32-33 where Moses is pleading with God for the spiritual lives of the Israelites who had been worshipping a golden calf they demanded Aaron make for them. If God would not, or could not, forgive His chosen people, then Moses wanted his name blotted out instead, allowing the chosen people of God to continue. This is a type and shadow of exactly what would happen to Jesus many centuries later. God refused Moses' request and said that whoever had sinned against Him, He would blot out that name. Again, you cannot blot out a name that has not already been written down. So yet another example that God has the power to blot out names from His Book of Life. Finally, the Holy Spirit took me to 1 Corinthians 9:24-27. Paul is exhorting the Corinthians to run a good race, but always be mindful of the fleshly state of maturity, which could lead to their ruin. In verse 27, Paul states that he is always mindful of his flesh and constantly fights it lest he finds at the end of the race, that he has lost the race and the prize set before him is lost. The Holy Spirit showed me that Paul was definitely afraid of losing the salvation he sought if he did not keep his fleshly man under subjection so that his spirit man could flourish. This was an early letter of Paul's, before His theology had been fully formed by the Holy Spirit. However, in Paul's last letter (2 Timothy) he states to Timothy "I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness". Gone are the doubts expressed in 1 Corinthians, now Paul knows that Heaven awaits him as he patiently waits for the death the Romans will impose on him. Scripture says in 2 Corinthians 13:1 that in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. In other words, when you have two or three witnesses telling you that something in Scripture is true, then it is true. We have Jesus in Revelation 3 as our first witness, Moses in Exodus as our second witness, and Paul in 1 Corinthians and 2 Timothy as our third witness. Therefore, the fact that a name can be blotted out of the Lamb's Book of Life is established, just as Jesus told us in Revelation 3. Thus one can definitely loose the salvation they gained when they accepted Jesus as their Savior, but it is a hard thing to do since God has an extremely dim view of His children willingly leaving His family. One example (out of many) of someone who could willingly throw away their salvation would be if a young Christian male or female were to fall in love with someone of the Muslim faith. In order to convert to Islam, the Christian must denounce Jesus in the mosque and state that all ties to Jesus are severed, so that they can now freely worship Allah. And then the Holy Spirit took me to the letter to the Hebrews, Chapters 6 and 10, especially 10:29. Here the Holy Spirit revealed to me just what the unpardonable sin that Jesus talked about in Mark 3:28-29 consisted of. When we willingly tread underfoot the precious blood of Jesus, counting this holy blood an unholy thing (denouncing Jesus and all ties to Him in a mosque so that you will serve no god but Allah), we have just committed the unpardonable sin that Jesus told us would never be forgiven either in this world or the one to come (Mark 3:29). I could go on, but this post is becoming lengthy so I'll leave it right here. Needless to say, it took the Holy Spirit to shake me from my OSAS roots, for they were very deep. However, the only correct view, in my humble opinion, is the Scriptural view as revealed by the Holy Spirit.

"The Sands of men's doctrines and denominations...." I like that! I feel a Sermon coming on out of that!! I find it funny since you came from the SBC and I came out of the PCofG (Pentdcostal Church of God) who did not believe in OSAS but for some reason, I did. I disagreed with two main parts of their theological teachings which blew me out of ordaination in PCofG. Well the OSAS was no biggie for I wasn't locked into it but the pre-Trib on their part while I see and showed them in Scripture with no commentaries needed that only the Pre-Wrath First Resurrection held up. But the Lord, as He did with you, led me through the Scriptures. For me, the one that stood up in my face was "blot out...from The Book of Life..." in Revelation. I did a double take on that one. Even the smallest amount of education and common sense will tell a person; "Hey, wait! You cannot 'blot out' something that was not written in to begin with..." And it was on from that point. I searched and prayed and began to see all the Scriptures that warn or actually prophesy of it happening. One of those I had studied and used (2 Thess 2:1-3) to prove even Paul didn't preach pre-trib but dispelled it as a falsehood to the Thessalonians and bang...."great falling away first.." "Falling away" from what? The Faith in Jesus Christ. And again, the "many shall depart from the Faith giving heed to seducing doctrines..." These are prophecies that will occur no matter what. And of course we see it happening before our eyes especially over the last few decades. But, as I put it before, I am very careful on two fronts anymore. One to not tear up wheat pulling tares but gently show and let the Holy Ghost have His way and, we are cautioned against railing in non-profitable doctrines but to point to the one and only True doctrine in The Word. I like it that way better because when it is clear and concise in His Word, it stops all hainsaying for we can just say; "Hey! Take it up with The Author". PS: I went to my Control Center and turned on Rich Text Editor instead of Standard Editor. Next, I type the paragraph (type a few words...go back highlight, increase font and boldness for my eyes - cataracts) and then type it continuous until I want a break. Then I hit return once. It appears in the screen that it is next line but I found that if you hit CR twice leaving one space lilne, you end up with several setting the paragraphs way apart. Then it automatically puts a blank separator space line between them (sometimes) I hit preview to make sure. hope that helps Thanks again, Ron. Feel free to use whatever you want from any of my posts since we serve the same Heavenly Father and He is the inspiration (If any can be found) in any of our words. Bottom line; it's all good. I changed to rich text editor and now am trying it out in this post. We have both had an exceptional journey out of the jungle of crooked trees and twisted vines that our denominational doctrines have become and are now in the clear prairie that is the Word of God. It is here, through the agency of the Holy Spirit as He connects with our spirit man, that we learn just what is true and what is not in the Holy Scriptures. Best part of it is that we need no advanced education to dwell in God's prairie, for the Holy Spirit is able to communicate with anyone at the level they can understand. He is, after all,the greatest of teachers. I'm quite convinced, based on Paul's first letter to the Corinthians, that my Heavenly Father never meant for denominations to be formed. 1 Corinthians 3:1-7 seems to me to be a rather stinging rebuke given by Paul to the Corinthian church. Seems they were dead set to start two denominations right there in that church! Those being the Pauline denomination and the Apollian denomination with neither having a good grasp of what the Scriptures mean because Paul called them "carnal" or fleshly Christians in verse 1 and fleshly Christians will never understand the the depths to be found in God's Word. Scripture clearly wants members of the body of Christ to share insights with each other, but to never become so dogmatic that, in sharing, these members of God's family begin to say that "my viewpoint on this subject is the correct one because my traditions and dogmas of my denomination have proved this position to me". Well, they don't actually say that in so many words, but that's clearly what they mean when the discussions turn into arguments and they fall back on what their denominations say (or their Pastor tells them) to prove that they have the right view and you don't. Seems that all denominations were formed out of disagreement. The prevaling view was challenged by believers who had a different view and felt that their view was Scripturally accurate where the opposing view was not accurate from the Scriptural standpoint. This is exactly what was happening in the Corinthian church when some members said that only Paul was right and they would believe only him, the Pauline denomination. Other members said that only Apollos had the truth and they were following him, the Apollian denomination. Truth be told, both Paul and Apollos were teaching the the exact same truth from God but the members of the congregation couldn't see it this way. Some (the Paulines) saw the teaching they were receiving only through a filter set of Paul's teaching method that they had constructed for themselves. The others (the Apollians) saw the teaching through a filter set of Apollos' teaching they had likewise constructed for themselves. Neither filter set was sactioned by Jesus, so they were both off base. But they argued and debated anyway, just like the Body of Christ is still doing today as they view the revealed Word of God through their own filter set they have built up using the traditions and dogmas of their particular denomination. This is so widespread that one simply has to browse through the forums on this (or any other Christian forum) website to see this tension between the various denominational viewpoints that are routinely posted on these boards. This is not the way our Heavenly Father wants His children to share information, but it is the position we take because it is so much easier to turn to your denominations position on any subject or ask your Pastor who will, 95% of the time, give you the denominational take on any given subject. The body of Christ is great at finding answers to tough questions by asking others with their same viewpoint but is woefully lacking in searching the truth within God's Word. Today's born-again Christians are just as carnal, that is "fleshly", as the Corinthians were because they do the same things the Corinthians did. They search out the proof that their viewpoint is correct and the opposing viewpoint is not within the people who see things as they do rather than turning to the Scriptures and finding their proof there as the Holy Spirit guides them. I guess some things never change. Yours in Christ, Wayne

Thanks, Ron for those kind words. I firmly believe that if the Body of Christ (those born again) would simply get their heads out of the sands containing the traditions of men and denominations and bury them in the Word of God, many of these senseless debates could be finally put to rest. BTW, how do you form paragraphs? My posts look like one long paragraph and I would rather break up the soliloquy into more meaningful paragraphs. Easier to read, also. For further background on me, I left a lengthy post in the welcome section under the thread "I'm a newbie".

This has been an ongoing debate since Joseph Armenius fell out with his teacher and mentor, John Calvin. Calvin got his five points that make up the acronym TULIP from St. Augustine, so this debate has long roots. When I accepted Jesus as my Savior and Lord, it was in a Southern Baptist church, so my early Christian training came from this denomination and there is no other denomination that I'm aware of who is as adamant on the "Once Saved, Always Saved" position as they are. Hence, I've heard many an argument on both sides of this debate. What intrigues me is that all arguments, both for and against, depend on snippits of Scripture taken out of context to prove both sides. But is impossible for both sides of this age-old question to be truly supported by the Word of God since that would make God the instrument of confusion and the Scriptures clearly state in 1 Cor. 14:33 "for God is not the author of confusion, but of peace as in all churches of the saints". This comment by Paul to the folks at Corinth was in the context of his explaining the phenomenon of speaking in tongues to this church. Thus, the only valid position on "Once Saved, Always Saved" is the Scriptural position that is gained from a careful and prayerful search of the New Testament on the subject of eternal salvation. As late as 2001, I was defending the OSAS position as this question was the central subject of the last chapter in my doctrinal dissertation. About 2 years after this dissertation was accepted and my degree awarded, my Lord patiently led me through the New Testament, showing me things I had never seen before in the Scriptures. He was proving to me just what the Scriptural position on eternal security realy is and the research literally blew my mind. I now know the Scriptural position is that you really can loose your salvation (think Adam in the Garden), but it is really hard to acomplish such a feat.