Massorite

So Satan comes on a horse representing purity and victory. Sorry, but I can't seem to find any verses in the Bible which say that Satan is either pure or victorious. In each case the horse and its rider are one, therefore Satan could not be one with a horse that represents purity or victory. Even pre-tribbers know that. I said that the man on the white horse was running a BLUFF which means that he is not at all pure or victorious but will make himself appear to be pure in order to accomplish his evil designs. Yet there is nothing in the verse that claims the rider on the white horse was "running a bluff," there is nothing which indicates that the color of the horse is deceitful. There is nothing in the verse that says that the man on the white horse is Christ iether nor does the verse say anything about the horse or the man representing the preaching of the gospel. There is however scripture that tells us that the antichrist will come preforming what would look like miracles. He will die and be resurrected somehow from death just as Jesus did. He will be the author of a peace treaty with Israel and he will be the one who breaks that peace treaty. He will ever call fire down from heaven. He will claim to be the son of God. He will cause a new temple to be built on the temple mount and he will sit himself up in the holy of holies, showing himself to be God. Now if that doesn't,t appear to be that which satan is not there is nothing more that I can tell you. Sounds like a bluff to deceive 6,000,000,000 people to me. The man on the horse is not Jesus and it isn't the gospel either.

So Satan comes on a horse representing purity and victory. Sorry, but I can't seem to find any verses in the Bible which say that Satan is either pure or victorious. In each case the horse and its rider are one, therefore Satan could not be one with a horse that represents purity or victory. Even pre-tribbers know that. I said that the man on the white horse was running a BLUFF which means that he is not at all pure or victorious but will make himself appear to be pure in order to accomplish his evil designs. Yet there is nothing in the verse that claims the rider on the white horse was "running a bluff," there is nothing which indicates that the color of the horse is deceitful. There is nothing in the verse that says that the man on the white horse is Christ iether nor does the verse say anything about the horse or the man representing the preaching of the gospel. There is however scripture that tells us that the antichrist will come proforming what would look like miricles. He will die and be resurrected somehow from death just as Jesus did. He will be the author of a peace treaty with Isreal andhe will be the one who breaks that peace treaty. He will ever call fire down from heaven. He will claim to be the son of God. He will cause a new temple to be built on the temple mount and he will sit himself up in the holy of holies, showing himself to be God. Now if that doesn,t appear to be that which satan is not there is nothing more that

Revelation is a book of prophecy. Why are the readers back then supposed to understand the metaphores? Quite right. The revelation was penned in the same century as that of the Olivette discourse of Matt chapter 24 and luke 21, in fact only about 60 years between. Revelation is prophesy projected ahead at least 1900 years, when Rome is just another capital city in the world today. In Revelation 17:10 the words "one is" are speaking about the existing Roman Empire so by this we know that the revelations were written for both them and us.

So Satan comes on a horse representing purity and victory. Sorry, but I can't seem to find any verses in the Bible which say that Satan is either pure or victorious. In each case the horse and its rider are one, therefore Satan could not be one with a horse that represents purity or victory. Even pre-tribbers know that. I guess you read what I said to fast. You need to slow down a bit and take a closer look at what I said. But for your sake I will repeat it what I said in a more understandable way. I said that the man on the white horse was running a BLUFF which means that he is not at all pure or victorious but will make himself appear to be pure in order to accomplish his evil designs. The most infamous mass murderer in history was talking peace while preparing for war and invaded Poland in the name of peace which started world war two. You know who he was don't you? Adolf Hitler. On the very day that Pearl Harbor was bombed the Japanese were in Washington talking about a peace treaty with us. They came with an olive branch in one hand out front and a knife in the other hand behind their back. And so it will be with the Antichrist who will be riding on the white horse in question. You need to realize that a "bow" is useless without arrows the same as a gun is without bullets but one can point a gun at somebody and get what they want even though it is unloaded because the one on the receiving end doesn't know the gun can not be used. The same goes for the bow. It is always seen and arrows are always in a pouch and the man on the horse doesn't have a pouch.

Revelation is a book of prophecy. Why are the readers back then supposed to understand the metaphores? Quite right. The revelation was penned in the same century as that of the Olivette discourse of Matt chapter 24 and luke 21, in fact only about 60 years between. Revelation is prophesy projected ahead at least 1900 years, when Rome is just another capital city in the world today. Incorrect. Revelation was written specifically to meet a need of the seven churches to which it was addressed, to wit, encouragement. Revelation was not just written to the churches of Johns time it was written to all the Lords servants. Revelation 1 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants

MrsSealed, What you need to understand is that there are those who see the book of Revelation as totally in the past. Preterists, for example believe that everything written in Revelation has already happened by 70 A.D. Therefore, they do not see any future fulfillment or direct relevance to us other than something we can learn from. That is where a significant portion of disagreement over the book of Revelation comes from. Some would agree that it describes ancient Rome, but also has a future fulfillment in a heretofore unidentified entity that will bear some of the same characteristics as ancient Rome. Yes there are those who believe that the whole of the book of Revelation has already happened but that doesn't make them right according to the written word. There is scripture that a preterist has to twist out of shape or egnore to make their beliefs right.

Revelation is a book of prophecy. Why are the readers back then supposed to understand the metaphores? Quite right. The revelation was penned in the same century as that of the Olivette discourse of Matt chapter 24 and luke 21, in fact only about 60 years between. Revelation is prophesy projected ahead at least 1900 years, when Rome is just another capital city in the world today. Because John wrote in a way that his fellow believers could understand it. What he wrote was understood by all who lived in his day. Which is why we are sometimes confused. John only had what was available to him in his day to describe what he saw and what he wrote was written for them as well as us. What helps us to better understand what the bible is saying is knowing about the days in which it was written.

Yea, since it has not happened yet, and the timing of the rapture is not clear, everything is basically a guess, or in other words, "could mean". Could mean, means nothing in the bible.

"kept from the hour of trial"...plain english it's pretty hard to be kept from something when you're right in the middle of it you can only be proven wrong, give your silly (and evil) crusade a rest, man You are putting words into scripture that are not there, my friend. That's cheating. Keep from the hour of trial in no way implies a pre-tribulation secret rapture. "kept from the hour of trial" is in the Scriptures. Actually, no Ovedya that is not what the scriptures say. Revelation 3:10 reads:Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall lcome upon alll the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Pre-tribbers rewrite the scripture to say: "Because thou has kept the word of my patience, I also will secretly rapture you off the earth so you can escape the hour of temptation which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." Who ever said that God HAD to take us out of this world to "keep us from the our of temptation" anyway. When there were flies in Egypt there were non in Goshen, when the water turned to blood in Egypt the water in Goshen tasted sweet and was clear, when there were frogs in Egypt there were non in Goshen and when the angel of death came calling it was the blood of the Lamb that kept the people of God from the hour of death and God didn't have to take them anywhere to protect them. We really shouldn,t be putting God in a box that limits His power and ability to keep His promise.

Iwent to the virtual tour site but I did not find anything about the paganism that went on in Rome during the early church. It is however a matter of historical record that when the Roman military defeated a city or a country it adopted their pagan god's, rituals, and worship and carried them back to Rome to become part of all of the rest of the paganism in Rome. No speculation about that. History is History.

One in which countless individuals are persecuted and subject to intolerance for not worshiping the "right" God. How would you like living in a Muslim theocracy or any other theocracy established in the name of a God you don't worship? Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Democracy, freedom of religion (freedom from religion), freedom of speech, these are all what allow any of us to be here today, discussing such issues ... making rational decisions for the best of everyone, they certainly wouldn't have come about in a true theocratic state. That's right if we didn't have the freedoms we have today we wouldn't be murdering 1,000,000 babies a year, we wouldn't have criminals sueing the people they committed a crime against because they defended them selves, we wouldn't have illegal immigrants breaking the law and getting away with it, we wouldn't have border patrol officers going to jail for shooting a drug smuggler or gay rights or legal pornography, we wouldn't be saturated by drug and alcohol abuse. Need I say more?

Shalom, The reason these books are quoted is because they didn't have an "authorised canon" of the scriptures at that time, and many other books that are not in the present "canon" were read and used in their synagogues and studied by scribes and rabbis. There are actually more books than are in the Apocrypha, upwards to about 120, and these are of Old Testament writings alone. now about the book of Enoch, the original was written by a group known as the B'ney ha N'vi'im, the Sons of the Prophets. notice the manner in which the book begins: "The words of the blessing of Enoch, wherewith he blessed the elect and righteous, who will be living in the day of tribulation, when all the wicked and godless are to be removed. And he (the one relating the story to the one writing it) took up his parable and said -Enoch a righteous man, whose eyes were opened by God, saw the vision of the Holy One in the heavens, which the angels showed me (Enoch), and from them I heard everything, and from them I understood as I saw, but not for this generation, but for a remote one which is for to come. And concerning the elect I said, and took up my parable concerning them...etc" notice that it is written in a manner of one person relating the story of another. the tradition is that the Sons of the Prophets, around 300bce, even earlier, received visions from the Holy One of Blessing, much like how Mosheh did when writing the history of creation in Genesis, they saw the past. there is, however one section of the work that was added by Christians around 100ce. it would be the section concerning the parables (Chapters XXXVII-LXXI). this can be varified by the Dead Sea Scrolls, which lack this section in their copy of the Book of Enoch which was dated 200bce. though they are not referenced by the Sh'lichim (Apostles), there are alot of quotes and references from these book throughout the B'rith Chadashah (New Testament). B'Yeshua, Z'ev Yochanan Cool! Where did you get this info?

good luck, I won't be joining you...I'll take the promise of Revelation 3:10 to the Church, thank you very much even the structure of Revelation itself makes it patently clear the Church is not here during the Tribulation, it's amazing the confusion about simple and striaghtforward doctrine Israel --> Church --> Israel --> Kingdom Promised to Israel plain as day, folks Ha! You think so, huh!? There is nothing AGAIN in Revelation 3:10 that says the saints will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air in a "secret" rapture. I am going to stand on the words that came out of the mouth of Jesus. Matthew 24:29 "Immediatly after the tribulation of those days etc" See if you can twist that around to fit your escape theology. I don't see how Jesus could have made it more clear then that.

Actually the book of Enoch was among the books found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Have you read any of those books to find out if they inspire you or bless your heart? I can tell you that the book of Enoch blessed my heart. He praises God more then any book that is in the bible today. Just because it is not in the bible doesn't mean that it was not inspired by God. There many books written by many pastors and laypeople that are blessed by God and Help many better understand the bible.

Your very welcome.

Good question. There are six books mentioned in the bible that are not in the bible and more book that were in the bible that man and God decided to remove. The problem is that those that God removed He removed for good reason but those that man removed he removed for his reasons. The book of Enoch is a great book and can be located and I agree with your friend. The book of Enoch goes into more detail about the fallen angels and talks about the stars/luminaries. And folks have a really hard time getting a hold on the fallen angels living on earth concept. The book of Hebrew has been removed and put back into the bible more then once. And then we have the Apocryphal books. Those that were removed from the bible by King James which are still in the Catholic bible. I believe that the books of Estras are written by Esra. It is most interesting that in the book of Esdras the writer claims that Estras did not die, that he was taken up by God instead of suffering death and there is no record of the death of Ezra in the King James version of the bible. God gave man the choice to choose and man has chosen to remove from the word of God what man has deemed unfit. But God has made sure that what is left in His word is what we need to start and maintain an intimate relationship with Him and His Son

All you need to do is read the word of God over and over and over and teach your child to do the same and pray and pray and pray. God wants an intimate relationship with us and by cultivating that relationship with Him will put in touch with Him and His will for your life. The Catholic church was not set up by Christ while He was here. Christ set up His church and the first gatherings for His church took place in Jerusalem and no place else. Do the research and you will find this to be true. The Roman church was started by Paul when he went there to preach the gospel. The Catholic/Universal church was created sometime after that by men who were influenced by paganism and so today the Catholic church is made up of men and women who were made deity by other men. They believe they are the only authorized by God clergy who can properly interpret the word of God and are directly responsible for bringing pagan ritual into the church sometime around 325 AD. Today we practice this pagan ritual and call it Christmas and Easter. The Jerusalem church which according to the bible was the first organized church, never celebrated Christmas or Easter because they considered them to be pagan even to celebrate the birth of Christ. The only two biblically recorded birthday celebrations were celebrated with the death of a man as part of that celebration. Well the problem is what in those 300+++ years happened. See they were SO crucified Just to Believe it was barely written down and understood. Some of what happened in those 300 years is written in the book of Acts. Alot more of what happened in those 300 years is recorded in secular historical record. I have a book called "A Dictionary of Early Church Beliefs". It is a reference guide to more then 700 topics about what the early church leaders believed a wrote about. If you were to do some research about these early church leaders and their lives you will find even more info about the church and how it grew and its doctrinal beliefs while it was growing. You will be surprised to find that many of the doctrinal teachings of today didn,t even exist in those first 300 years.

the "all" are the Elect of Israel, just as Christ died for the sins of "all", but it is only effectual for the Elect wrong! Israel is Israel! Stop trying to mix and match the Church and God's special convenants with Israel! If you keep reading in Romans 11, instead of quotng the "wild olive branch" passage out of context over and over again, you will see the covenant with Abraham and the promises made to Israel concerning the Kingdom were not cancelled because of the Church! They are yet to be fulfilled. The last three commissions of the six given to Israel in Daniel 9 are also yet to be fulfilled. The 144,000 are the special Jewish witnesses of God during Daniel's 70th Week. Why does God need them when the Church is still here? I have yet to here a logical rebuttal to that argument from anyone. You won't get a "logical" rebuttal either because what you are saying is what the bible says. God's promises to Israel are still in force and the church did not replace the Jewish people as the "apple" of God's eye. Can a Jew suffer eternal damnation? Yes! If a Jew dies without Christ in their life he will suffer the consequences of his choices. But until death he is still the apple of God's eye.

ToniR: yes, there is a passage in the bible where God does refer to Jerusalem exactly as symbolically egypt and sodom. i cannot find it right now but i absolutely remember it because i was shocked when i read it. You are correct Toni and there is more then just one place. Is this what you are referring to Fraught? This was mentioned in my post #35 on page 4. Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. The city where the two witnesses of Revelation 11:8 are killed is Jerusalem;(which is yet future) this is where our Lord Jesus was crucified. The Bible refers to Jerusalem as a "spiritual Sodom" and a "spiritual Egypt." Just speculating here, but this may mean that when this event occurs, Jerusalem will be indulging in the sin of Sodom and the sin of Egypt.

OK - so why are the merchants of the earth mourning the destruction of Jerusalem? vs. 3 - "...and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries." Since when was this descriptive of Jerusalem? That is correct. The woman represents something more then just the city of Jerusalem. She is a world wide entity. Well, I'll give this a shot. Keep your rope handy, you might want to lynch me when I am done ) The chariots shall rage in the streets, they shall justle one against another in the broad ways: they shall seem like torches, they shall run like the lightnings. Nahum 2:4 (KJV) If you or I lived in a day and age of horses and chariots, and we had a vision of modern interstate travel in automobiles, we might think that they "run like the lightnings". It's interesting that it says chariots but not horses here. And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. Rev 13:14-15 (KJV) The image of the beast (not the beast itself, but the image of it) has sight and speaks, and miracles to deceive are done "in the sight of the beast", so there is a limit to what the beast can do and what the beast sees. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. Rev 19:20 (KJV) The beast and the false prophet are alive (they are living beings). The image of the beast is not alive, but likely is a world wide system that the beast uses to expand and express his power. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thess 2:3-12 (KJV) The false prophet (a live being) likely points to the beast (also a live being) that expresses himself with lying wonders via the image of the beast that both sees and speaks, and has a world wide web of influence (hmmm, www...world wide web). I don't think machines ever become "self aware", but the devil might certainly use the future world wide web, artificial intellegence, virtual reality, satalite communications, and highly technoglical electronic monetary and monitoring systems to force all trade to be done via electronic funds transfers, forcing all to "take the mark of the beast" in order to buy, sell, or trade. So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. Rev 17:3 (KJV) The woman "sits" on the beast (if it is the same beast). And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. Rev 17:16 (KJV) The ten horns of the beast HATE the whore, make her desolate, eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. Rev 17:12-13 (KJV) These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. Rev 17:14 (KJV) The ten kings hate the whore and they also make war with the Lamb. So, I think that the ten kings are muslim arab kingdoms (nations), the false prophet is the coming false muslim prophet, they hate the whore which seams to include the Catholic church but might be of a broader application, and the fall of corrupt religious, political, military, and economic authority will cause the diminishing of the control of the world wide web to fall into the hands of the beast. All Christian-like manifestations will be attacked and the "whore" aspect will be destroyed by the beast. The Lamb will overcome them though. So there are three main players, and they are each different one from the other. The false prophet (a living being), the beast (a living being), and the whore (likely a system of religious evil). Also there is the image of the beast, another system that controls the economy, demands worship, and forces all to take the make of the beast. Very Good. Although I don't agree with all of it. I have done much research and Yes in many prophecies the word "chariot" is speaking of a self propelled vehical with 4 wheels. Although many would scolff at that concept. I do have a question for you. When these kings make war with the Lamb where is the Lamb? In heaven or on the earth?

That is right. At the time of Christ the Roman Empiror coverd 90% of the known world and in the future it will be the same.

There seed fell into stoney places and sprang up. But the dirt was shallow and when the sun came out they were dryed up because their roots were shallow like the dirt. Matthew 13:3-9. No body truly knows their heart but God and only He knows if they were truly saved.

God has already told us what will happen. I would like to see Netanyahu running Isreal.