Ingelosi

Sorry, I should have said that I would like some clarification from shiloh. I didn't mean that for you, I will change it right away. shiloh said he is a Jew, I am wondering what his position stands on Jesus. I wonder whether he is considering himself a Jew by ancestry or religion. If he considers himself a Jew by religion then I've got nothing against that but why would he speak for Christians? And nebula, you're right. I don't do much looking around the rest of the boards, something I should do more of I guess... But this is such an important topic for me, if I am wrong then it will turn my faith upside down. Then again maybe sometimes we need a bit of shaking up... Alright I'm going to bed now

Elchingen, First of all I am glad to see I'm not the only one here with these views. I have attempted in a few other topics to try and get my points across and it doesn't ever seem to come out right so I'm glad to see you here. I think its a great thing that all we can have these discussions to exchange ideas about the Kingdom. We all believe that the Kingdom will come, but we differ in our predictions of the way that it will come and what our part as Christians are in establishing it. One one hand, there are many who believe that the Kingdom will be brought by force and seem very eager to play a hand in it. I am not sure where their position stands on Jesus, shiloh has admitted to being a Jew and I believe some clarification of this is necessary. So far, I have mostly seen arguments that stem from the old covenant. The one between God and the people of Israel. That is not to say that the old testament is meaningless, it paints us a excellent picture of the nature of God and there are many noteworthy praises to be read. So this brings us back to the question of whether God supports Israel in this war. Well, judging by the old testament, and the old covenant he does. The Jews were his chosen people. But as I hope you all know, God made a new covenant, not 2000 years ago. In fact, we even uphold this covenant whenever we take the Eucharist (communion). We affirm that "[For] whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. 1 Corinthians 11:26". Through out scripture we read that Christ's death was a sacrifice, but something was special about this sacrifice. It was special because it was for Jews and Gentiles . This is central to the Christian faith that everyone can be freed from our sins. Yes, even terrorists. John (who was once called Saul) is a prime example of this. Now, on the other hand there is me, and Elchingen (though correct me if you don't share my views) who believe that in this war there are no winners because God would not support a side because its his own Kingdom he's worried about. God's scandalous grace was enough to save the world from its sins, why is it too weak to save a murderer's sins? Jesus has shown us how to live and I think that if the Messiah comes again but as a warrior, then he will show us the way. But until then, I think there is some Kingdom building to do and we don't do it by throwing bombs at each other. I have prayed for Palestine and have gotten labelled as an anti-semetic pacifist. I have prayed for Israel and am told I am not to be trusted and that I'm not genuine. Please, this has to stop. In Love, Adam EDIT: I shouldn't be naming names

Your only argument seems to be that you think Israel is being blamed more than Palestine in this war, which in itself is a mostly nonreligious debate and I have come to realize that the Kingdom is farther away than I thought.

Wow Hupo! Thank-you for sharing this, you've just made my day. Shiloh, have a look around the forum. There are many many prayers for the victims of Palestinian aggression. I find that I don't see as many calls or prayer for Palestinians (but then again, how do we know who's praying for what?). So its almost like we are opposite except I don't believe that praying for one group makes you the enemy of another. So if I say a prayer for Jewish people than I am not anti-semetic in your opinion??

shiloh, You take our call for prayer for the Palestinians and turn it into a call for antisemitism. Thats not what I, nor any other person should want. I have never said anything to condemn, judge or spread hatred for Jews and yet you insist I am an anti-semitist.

Well said. We should pray for them and let God judge them when their time comes and hopefully, they will be judged with mercy. It is God's will that every person on earth goes to heaven, lets give Him some help with that!

Yeah, for once I do agree with Bush, about how some democrats are trying to rewrite history. But at the same time, apart from Hilary Clinton's remark, I didn't see any evidence to show that the majority of democrats supported a war. They were just agreeing on false intelligence that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction, or chemical weapons. I don't think that is supporting any war.

For God's sake! Open your hearts to Gods amazing grace! So amazing that even a terrorist can be saved. How come you can't understand that? Save people, don't kill them. Love them, don't hate them. Don't let Satan win. Read the Bible. For goodness sake! ACTS 8, ACTS 9! The early Christians feared Saul who tortured and murdered them! What does it take to be a terrorist in your eyes. You cannot take the fact that Saul was a terrorist away from him! What would he say? He would not say "oh! thank-you for not calling me a terrorist!" of course not, that would take so much of the miracle away. Alright. Believe what you want! If you want to fight hate with hate so be it, I will not. If it even comes down to it, I will step in your, or anyone else's way in the name of the man who did not fight back. I will not lift a finger against another soul, I will not be a coward and hold a gun. You will have to kill my body first. Don't follow the easy path. It takes more courage to stand in front of a gun than behind one. The new covenant has come! Everyone is welcome at the table of our Lord. I will check in every once in a while to give voice to the voice-less, Salaam, Adam

TO IRAQ by Shane Claiborne I am going to Iraq because I believe in a god of scandalous grace. If I believed terrorists were beyond redemption, I would need to rip out half of my New Testament Scriptures, for they were written by a converted terrorist. I have pledged Allegiance to a King that loved evildoers so much He died for them (and of course the people of Iraq are no more evil or more holy than the people of the US) teaching us that there is something worth dying for but nothing worth killing for. While the terrorists were nailing Him to the cross, my Jesus pleaded that they be shown mercy for they know what they were doing. We are all wretched, and we are all beautiful. No one is beyond redemption and no one is beyond repute. May we see in the hands of the oppressors our own hands, and in the faces of the oppressed our own faces. We are made of the same dust, and we cry the same salty tears. I am going to Iraq in the footsteps of an executed and risen God. I follow a Jesus who rode into Jerusalem on the back of a donkey at Passover, knowing full well what He was walking into. This Jesus of the margins suffered an imperial execution by an oppressive regime of wealthy and pious elites. And now He dares me and woos me, come and follow, take my cross, lose my life to find it

I would not want to visit such a place under any circumstances.....unless I was carrying 500lb of high-explosives. While you're at it......could you please tell me the names, ages and locations of your voluptuous daughters. I could do with a bit of 'light relief' Also, please furnish me with the accurate location of your valuables. I need the money more than you. I know you will not stand in my way in any of this. Looking forward to your early reply (Good job I'm only kidding.....isn't it?) Except for the 'high explosive thing, that is Well, I am sad to say that you just sunk as low as those coward terrorists who walk into pizza shops wearing explosive vests and detonate them. A little courage people, plz. I would gladly give you that information if you do indeed need it, although I don't think I could give you any sons or daughters. I am 18 years old and am not married, except maybe to Christ. Please, this isn't something to joke about. Read what I have to say and judge it according to you relationship with Christ.

Ok guys, I can't sit down and write a lengthy article now cause I have to got to work in a bit, but I can say a few quick things that need to be cleared up. 1. Once again, please do not think that I am against Jewish people. I do have concern when Palestinians kill Israelis just as I have concern of the opposite. To illustrate this, I can say that I have been to a synagogue and they have let me touch their Torah scrolls, I was very grateful. I have also been to a Mosque during Friday Prayers, and they have let me sit in on their service, I was very grateful. I encourage every Christian to visit these places to understand where they are coming from. The reason why it may seem that I am against Israel (though I'm not) is because you fail to acknowledge the innocent people on the other side who have died and I'm trying to expose that, while you have take great measure to expose the innocent people on the Israeli side. 2. Now, for the statement I made earlier that has upset some people. I said that if a street gang broke into my house, stole all my belongings, murdered my son and raped my daughter, what would I do. And I admit, I did not read that as carefully as I should have. What should have said was that I would do everything I could to make them see the error in their ways, by getting in their way whichever way I could. And like I have said earlier. It is perhaps the most risky thing we can do on earth, to judge another person, being my daughter or my son on their faith. What if they hadn't accepted Jesus? Would they go to hell? I don't know I am not the judge, only God can decide that. And that is where I am coming from with all this "not fighting back" stuff. WE are become the judges our selfs. How can you not see that by killing someone you are condemning them to Hell?! Life on earth is not the err... " the final frontier", it is only the beginning. Wealth on earth means nothing to the riches in heaven! Since you are so confident that the Jews will be saved, why are we fighting over earthly borders? If they have been saved then land should mean very little to them. And if we are so sure that Terrorists are going to go to hell, then (in the words of Shane Claiborne) I would have to tear out half of the new testament for it was written by a converted Terrorist. So do you see what I am saying? It is not about national borders, or who killed who, that doesn't matter. It is that souls are being destroyed in Hell and we are responsible.

PLEASE do NOT say that about me. I am not anti Jew, nor am I anti Muslim. I have a great deal of respect for Jews and Muslims, they are our sister religions but need to be brought to the light. But NOT by killing them even if they kill even one of us. This fighting MUST stop so we can get down to some proper evangelizing. They are all intelligent people and deserve more respect than Qassam rockets, and suicide bombings. Please don't relate the desire for peace with the dislike of any cultural group. I resent that VERY much.

No. I don't think I am. If you remember the whole reason for my concern...- If you agree that was a hateful statement and should not have been said, we can end this discussion right now. Unless you wish to continue. Well, for one thing, you are killing them. Thats actually not what I'm saying. You skipped the part about how when Jesus told us to love our neighbors,how that doesn't apply to interaction with people beyond our borders (which is btw, a purely human invention) When you kill someone who has not been reborn, your are condemning them to hell, because you are taking away a chance for them to discover the truth of Jesus. Now do you really want guilt on you when you yourself are judged? For a Christian, death should be welcomed if it is the true will of God, and if that means laying your life so another may live, apparently, there is no higher gift to give to another person.

Dude, Jesus was a squatter wasn't he? An outcast? No Jesus was a Jew who lived on His own Land. It was also His Land by virtue of the fact that Jesus was/is God. Don't even try to draw a comparison between Jesus and the Palestinians. No doubt, he was an outcast though. And a squatter must fit under that category, no? Quite impressive really, that God would send his son not as a military commander who would vanquish Israels enemies, but as a carpenters son, who would eventually choose to become homeless.

No its not my problem. Its theirs. And I know, it's hard to say that for other people, being my son or my daughter, but I truly believe that God will judge the street gang accordingly on their day of judgment. I believe I will also be judged on whether I showed them to the truth and the light of Jesus Christ. And believe me, no one is beyond that.

Well, if we are to love our neighbors accross the street, but not across the border, isn't that hypocracy? Something Jesus stood strongly against.

(I have edited with underlines to show the most critical parts of the verses.) The Beatitudes 1And seeing the multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His disciples came to Him. 2Then He opened His mouth and taught them, saying: 3"Blessed are the poor in spirit, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4Blessed are those who mourn, For they shall be comforted. 5Blessed are the meek, For they shall inherit the earth. 6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, For they shall be filled. 7Blessed are the merciful, For they shall obtain mercy. 8Blessed are the pure in heart, For they shall see God. 9Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God. 10Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11"Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you. -Matthew 5:1-12 36

I can't believe you said that. Thats what the extremist Hutu called the Tutsi's before they slaughtered 800,000 of them in the Rwandan genocide. Very Christ-like indeed. I hope you weren't serious. I actually agree with Kari. She is talking about terrorists who are attacking Israel, and "cockroaches" is a very mild reference compared to what I would call them. I could think of some other choice things to call them and they would wholly accurate. Furthermore, this conflict bears NO resemblance to the ethnic cleasing that occcured with reference to the Hutu's slaughter of the Tutsis, not by a long shot. Why must we curse our enemies? And from what I have heard from Jesus, he would not want us to "stomp" them.

Dude, Jesus was a squatter wasn't he? An outcast?

I can't believe you said that. Thats what the extremist Hutu called the Tutsi's before they slaughtered 800,000 of them in the Rwandan genocide. Very Christ-like indeed. I hope you weren't serious.

Ok, so I have a couple dissagreements with what you have said, Adal. You say that if you take everything except the single thing that we all have in common, then we have a watered down Christianity. This, I must dissagree with because what we all believe in is God who is in three persons (The Father, Son and Holy Spirit) and that God sent his only son to earth to be a sacrifice and forgive our sins and introduce a new covenant. Basically that Jesus is the light of the world. I believe that this the core believe of any Christian and does not represent a watered down Christianity but a Christianity in one of its truest forms. The difference is how we have interpreted the laws and customs represented in the Bible acording to our time. It is very very difficult to predict the future and I am pretty sure that only God can do it, but my vision of a one world religion is where anybody could come, whether you believe in Buddha or Muhammad, no matter how you interpret the bible, to come and be able to break bread together and share the communion and uphold the new covenant that Jesus brought because that, is surely the one and only key to salvation. My friend always gets to me whenever I say a comment like "this will never happen" or "thats impossible, no one will ever do that" and he will just say that i'm right, because I just proved it by saying it. The Catholic Church has tried to bring leadership and direction into the church, I cannot say whether this has worked well or not, but I am always worried when we start singleling groups out because I am afraid that this could lead to rejection which certainly isn't the Jesus way. It is however sometimes needed to adress concerns that one might have and to discuss them openly with all parties. I try to always be carefull about how I say things. EDIT: I've done some digging and this is what i've found so far about what Catholics believe about Mary: http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?...ht=worship+mary "Again, why is Mary important? Because of her Son. Why is she honored? Because of her Son. Who was the first to honor her? God, in making her mother of His Son. Does God change or is He eternal and unchanging? Eternal. So if God honored Mary then, did He ever STOP honoring her? Think about it." I'm going to try and find out whether they actually worship her or not. I don't believe they worship Mary, though they do remember her and her importance. They do of course give all credit to God for her work and I don't thing they give up Christ for her either... But I can't speak for Catholics because I'm not one of them so i'll have to ask one of them to be sure. I think it is very important to worship with people who are not Christians though I am not willing to give up Christ for it so why not introduce them to Christ? So that is what I think. And I hope you enjoyed it because it took the better part of an hour to think it through and write it all down. I certainly don't want to be seen as a snob by writing this but I just want people to understand what I'm saying.

When you think of the One World Religion, what do you think it will be. With the great falling away starting, where are all these so called "Christians" going to go? The will ban together, along with other religions, all in the name of peace, declaring the truth that God is the God of love; therefore, they must be correct. What is the one world leader going to preach? Peace. Can you see how it will all fit together? Pray and Study to know what the Truth really is. Your Brother In Christ, Alan I don't quite understand what you are saying. I asked whether you are talking about ecumenism as in cooperation between Christian denominations. I need to know because it seems right now that you are arguing against cooperation between Christian groups. I'm confused

At last someone who studies the bible.Ecumenism is being preached or encouraged by some of the most well-known church leaders and grops world wide. It's just what the new world order wants. A one world religion and it's evil. Don't fall into the trap. Hold on a sec, are you talking about the movement between Christian churches and denominations or between two religions?

No it is not that I would lose my faith. It is more that I could be expected to 'water down' my faith to a level that is acceptable to the other faiths. That is what I am not willing to do. I don't how or why you would have to water down you faith, just because you aren't around only Christians. In fact I believe that no true Christian or Hindu, Muslim etc. would expect anyone to water down their faith because that is a major point of the service, to show your faith and show that we can worship in the same room without starting a war. Every faith worships a god and what would be the point in everybody watering down their own faith when everyone is worshiping a god? Why not all worship together and love each other and share our faiths? The truth in the end will win the battle. I don't think it is quite the same as ecumenism, I've always thought as ecumenism as being the cooperation of all denominations of a faith such as Lutheran, Catholic, Baptist, etc. And there certainly isn't anything wrong with that

I don't fear the situation. I am just not willing to compromise my faith! Its hard to say it without saying "fear" but basically you mean you are concerned you will lose your faith?