ServingHim

yes it is...it is customary for those who are anti-catholic to 'run down' and degrade and diminish anyone who 'defends and supports' the catholic view on this board...that is why I left for a while...though, I've been back recently

of course, Christ is infallible...HE IS TRUTH...ALL of IT! AND Christ IS THE CHURCH ... 4 And he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" Acts 9:4 Christ is the head of the church, his body, Eph 5:23 :il:

yes, I do...blessings. :il:

so which of the 33,000 differing truths is it then? the Catholic Church is the only 'universal, holy, apostolic & united' Church ... so if the TRUTH is found elsewhere, WHICH ONE, UNIVERSAL, APOSTOLIC & UNITED Church is it so that ALL may recognize the RIGHT ONE and flock to be united with that one!!!?? Afterall, Jesus said there is ONE FLOCK ... and ONE SHEPHERD. :il:

All Christians agree that we won

I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness Matt. 5:25,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 - these verses allude to a temporary state of purgation called a "prison." There is no exit until we are perfect, and the last penny is paid. Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a state we call purgatory. Matt. 12:32 - Jesus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory. Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will will no longer live with the Master. Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory. 1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, to atone for their sins. These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory. 2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him. But there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory. Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed, in the state of purgatory. Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits were in purgatory. 1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision. Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory. Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. Even the propensity to sin is uncleanliness. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed. Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purificatioin, and expedited their journey to God. Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory. Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory. 2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible. II. Purification After Death By Fire Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell). 1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation). 1 Cor. 3:15 - Paul says though he will be saved, "but only" through fire. The phrase "but only" in the Greek is "houtos" which means "in the same manner." This means that man is both rewarded and saved by fire. 1 Cor. 3:15 - when Paul teaches that those whose work is burned up will suffer loss, the phrase for "suffer loss" in the Greek is "zemiothesetai." The root word is "zemioo" which also refers to punishment. This means that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, which cannot mean either heaven (no need for it) or hell (expiation no longer exists). 1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man's work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory). 1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God's temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17). 1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith. Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory. Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins. Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined. Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward. Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation. Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold. Mal. 3:2-3 - also refers to God's purification of the righteous at their death.

13 Is Christ divided? 1 Cor 1:13

well, I went to my first yoga class yesterday, and it was the most amazing workout I've had in a long time...I haven't read this thread through, but I thought I'd share my thoughts...it's a GREAT WORK OUT for the body!!!!

31 "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, `Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer him, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' 40 And the King will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, `Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' 45 Then he will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matt 25:31-46 I thought this was appropriate for this discussion...

yes, and I think there are MANY mysteries that are just like this...that we just can't get concrete answers to, as much as we might think we know exactly what it means...

50 And Jesus cried again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit. 51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom; and the earth shook, and the rocks were split; 52 the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. Matt 27:50-53 In reading today's readings, I thought this was amazing! :il:

Paul's words are worth noting in this discussion... 24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. 25 Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; 27 but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified. 1 Cor 9:24-27

and this is probably when the man-made doctrine of 'sola scriptura' evolved... Yeah the Catholic leadership was against anybody reading the Bible for themselves. They lost the ability to control what everyone believed. They didn't have everyone under their thumb anymore. you are absolutely wrong, and if you were open-minded instead of so bigoted towards Catholics, you might find out what the Church REALLY teaches...I have officially withdrawn from this 'unworthy' board. I can't believe the hatred spewed in the name of Jesus Christ over this board. Lord have mercy on us ALL!

Where does the Bible say that? Does that mean I never have to repent and I can just sin all I want, since Jesus has already paid the price? great question! can you believe we actually agree on something?

and this is probably when the man-made doctrine of 'sola scriptura' evolved...

For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 1 Cor 2:2 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. Gal 2:20 :il:

so then one who has accepted Christ Jesus as their personal Lord & Savior are free to lie when need be, OR perhaps even 'fornicate'...have an affair...for since they're SAVED, they can do what they want?

Then there's no need to defend or promote a particular church, is there? You are absolutely right, steve...and thank you for reminding me of this. For centuries in the Christian world, all were united in one faith, the Catholic Church. Then came along the "reformation" and splits in the Body of Christ. With it came many changes in teaching by the various Christian sects. Some of these teachings, especially in the 20th century, seem to be poll driven, just like our very own civil government. Their "teachings" are based on public opinion, not on truth. The "teaching" of the day among some of these non-Catholic sects seems to be based on the "let us oil the squeaking wheel" policy. Private opinions do not change the truth one iota, but I'm sure you already knew that. However, the "Pillar and Foundation of Truth", the Catholic Church (1Tim 3:15), is unmoving in this respect. She and she alone stands up against the world in teaching the truth, as commanded by Jesus Christ Himself. In so doing, she comes under great criticism by many who have found worldly things to be their real god. How then, can the "Pillar of Truth" teach nothing but the truth? So, you're right Steve...I don't need to defend her for she is defended by her leader, Christ Himself, and the church will NEVER fail...in fact, how on earth did the Catholic Church ever survive for almost two millennia? The answer to that one is easy, as Holy Scripture gives us the answers... "Fear not, for I am with thee: turn not aside, for I am your GOD. I have strengthened thee, and have helped thee, and the right hand of My Just One hath upheld thee. Behold all that fight against thee shall be confounded* and ashamed, they shall be as nothing, and the men shall perish that strive against thee." Isaias 41:10-11 *The World Christian Encyclopedia, a Protestant publication, records that there were 33,820 non-Catholic Christian sects in the world as of April, 2001, a prime example of "confounding". "And they shall fight against thee, and shall not prevail, for I am with thee, said the Lord, to deliver thee." Jeremiah 1:19 "Do not be a stumbling-block to Jews and Greeks and to the Church of GOD." 1Corinthians 10:32 "Therefore, since we receive a kingdom that cannot be shaken, we have grace, through which we may offer pleasing service to GOD with fear and reverence." Hebrews 12:28 Did you not know that Jesus Christ is the savior of His Body the Church? "... just as Christ is head of the Church, being himself savior of the body." Ephesians 5:23 "If GOD is for us, who is against us?" Romans 8:31 What force on earth would give you trepidation, if the Lord of Lords, and the King of Kings is with you? "Unless the Lord build the house, they labor in vain who build it." Psalms 127:1 In every century for almost 2000 years, heretics have been composing the epitaph of the Catholic Church, but instead of burying the Church, the Catholic Church has been burying the heretics. :x: The Church (the ONE, HOLY, UNIVERSAL AND APOSTOLIC) STILL STANDS...and will forever, until the end, as promised. So, I'm done here 'defending Her', for she doesn't need me to do this anymore. The Church IS the Body of Christ...! God bless, and peace. I will NOT be returning anytime soon, so if you have a personal statement or question for me, please email me directly through the email system. Peace. :il:

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death." Rev 21:8 How does what you say reconcile with this verse?

so does one have to be intelligent and understand PRIOR to receiving the Holy Spirit? Do they have to be able to articulate what they believe in order for the Holy Spirit to even think about coming into someone and 'regenerating' them? so, do they? IS salvation ONLY for those who can intelligently understand what they are about to seek and that have come to the full conclusion of what their 'newfound faith' is all about, and that they UNDERSTAND the Trinity, the gospel, et al? Does one COMPLETELY have to understand the 'signifcance' of baptism PRIOR to being baptized, and PRIOR to actually receiving the Holy Spirit? YET, our Lord tells us ... he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, Titus 3:5 ... what righteous deeds is he speaking of here? Baptism? I don't think so, especially when the Apostles COMMAND was to 'BAPTIZE all NATIONS!' They are obedient, right? THey trusted that our Lord would DO THE REST in each and every person...some will receive the Word with joy...some will not. no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor 12:3 So are you saying that you receive the GIFT of the Holy Spirit AFTER you repent and claim that Jesus is Lord? Doesn't this contradict the above verse?

so do you have leaders in your church that you submit to and obey their teachings? I submit to those who have the authority of the Holy Spirit and who teach BIBLICAL truths. so basically, if they think the same as you? Why do you think that Augustine teaches falsely. Many theologians throughout history regard him quite highly as a legitimate scholar of the Truth? Do you think that modern day 'pastors' are the ONLY ones worth hearing? "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me." Luke 10:16 How do you 'abide' by this in modern day...2000 years PAST the apostles' time?

so do you have leaders in your church that you submit to and obey their teachings?

where is that detailed out in scripture? Are you saying then that water baptism is moot...that it's irrelevant. Are you saying that everytime 'baptism' is mentioned in scripture, that it's referring to what you're saying and NOT relating in the least to 'water baptism'... Romans 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. THAT is the the true baptism that occurs at salvation. Batpsim into water is merely symbolic of what happens in the heart of a person when they make Jesus Lord and Savior of their life, and He comes to dwell in them in the person of the Holy Spirit. Christianity is not about rituals and rites. It is about becoming one with God by virtue of our union with Him in Christ. That only occurs when one repents of sin, and recieves the gift of salvation by grace through faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross. Then, and only then, do we find a true saving relationship with God. "By Grace are you saved through faith, and this NOT of yourselves, it is a gift of God; NOT OF WORKS lest any man boast." Eph. 2:8-9. If salvation is procured out of any deed or work, then it is not of God. God will not save you because of anything you have done. He will only save you because of what Christ did on the cross. Salvation is Christ + 0. Salvation is Christ alone. It all comes back to the message of the cross. When we get away from the message of the cross, we get away from Jesus, and the gospel. DID YOU EVEN READ what I posted prior to this post??

don't care to be honest with ya....if it's not a quote from the Bible, I'm not really that interested I continually quote scripture...so it ALL BOILS DOWN TO... YOUR interpretation VS. MY INTERPRETATION!!! Isn't that FUNNY, in that IN SCRIPTURE ALONE, you're TOLD to 'obey your leaders'...do you NOT have ANY CHURCH LEADERS? Where in the BIble does the BIBLE SAY ... TO SEARCH THE BIBLE FOR YOURSELF AND COME TO YOUR OWN PERSONAL CONCLUSION? Jesus Wants Us to Obey Apostolic Authority Acts 5:13 - the people acknowledged the apostles' special authority and did not dare take it upon themselves. Acts 15:6; 16:4 - the teaching authority is granted to the apostles and their successors. This teaching authority must be traced to the original apostles, or the authority is not sanctioned by Christ. 1 Cor. 5:3-5; 1 Tim. 1:20; Gal 1:8; Matt 18:17 - shows the authority of the elders to excommunicate / anathemize ("deliver to satan"). 2 Cor. 2:17 - Paul says the elders are not just random peddlers of God's word. They are actually commissioned by God. 2 Cor. 5:20 - Paul says we are "ambassadors" for Christ. This means that the apostles and their successors share an actual participation in Christ's mission, which includes healing, forgiving sins, and confecting the sacraments. 2 Cor. 10:8 - Paul acknowledges his authority over God's people which the Lord gave to build up the Church. 1 Thess. 5:12-13 - Paul charges the members of the Church to respect those who have authority over them. 2 Thess. 3:14 - Paul says if a person does not obey what he has provided in his letter, have nothing to do with him. 1 Tim. 5:17 - Paul charges the members of the Church to honor the appointed elders of the Church. Titus 2:15 - Paul charges Timothy to exhort and reprove with all authority, which he received by the laying on of hands. Heb. 13:7,17 - Paul charges the members of the Church to remember and obey their leaders who have authority over their souls. 1 Peter 2:18 - Peter charges the servants to be submissive to their masters whether kind and gentle or overbearing. 1 Peter 5:5; Jude 8 - Peter and Jude charge the members of the Church to be subject to their elders. 2 Peter 2:10 - Peter warns the faithful about despising authority. He is referring to the apostolic authority granted to them by Christ. 3 John 9 - John points out that Diotrephes does not acknowledge John's apostolic authority and declares that this is evil. Deut. 17:10-13 - the Lord commands His faithful Israel to obey the priests that He puts in charge, and do to all that they direct and instruct. The Lord warns that those who do not obey His priests shall die. Num. 16:1-35 - Korah incited a "protestant" rebellion against God's chosen Moses, and Korah and his followers perished.