sachi

EATING and DRINKING are not considered " Life support" in medical terms. Pope John Paul II is likely to be tube fed, I just read in a new brief. I am working with a little 12 year old girl who is being tube fed because she can't digest food. This tube feeding is costing our health care @ $10,000 a month !!! She may be designated a 'vegetable too - and all "medical support" be removed from her ..... what do you think...? But your argument above is speculative and based on coinjecture. The point is noone really has written evidence either way. The cost of medical care is sky rocketing. It isexpensive to keep people alive who will not return $ to the system. Its easier to designate them as 'vegetables', come up with a new term PVS, as if the euphimism will justify the killing. That is what it's about. It's not even about Michael Schiavo. The Bushes went through a dance to perform as if they were pro-life and satisfy the public that voted them in - but in fact everyone knows from the beginning that it was faite accompli.

Excuse me....? His patients apparently did eventually EAT so as to be able to survive and relate these alleged experiences ... Or did he receive communication from the dead? Well, if its so "smooth", then why not apply it to all those on death row who have been convicted on heinous murders . . .? Ahh - you see, that would open up a whole different can of worms and incite a variety of lobby groups.

Good point Given that they have been so adroit in using the legal system to legislate Terri's dying - the question is what needs to happen in terms of legal measures to ensure this is not a recedent that is set for other chronic medical cost inducing conditions like: Alzheimers, terminal cancer, MS etc - Are there legal or constitutional provisions that need to be set in place ....? I think - aside from Michael Schiavo's callousness - the stunned disbelief of those us us observing this is is the fact that every legal recourse Terri had was defeated in the courts.

Great article: does this portend things to come . . . ? Charles Dickens captured it when he had Scrooge confront the do-gooders who wanted to save the helpless, deemed worthless to Victorian England. "If they had rather die they had better do it and decrease the surplus population."[/B] '... And decrease the surplus population' Bucks County Courier Times It's astounding how many people want Terri Schiavo dead and aren't afraid to say so. I got clobbered by readers who reacted to Tuesday's column about how the "culture of death" has placed its compassionate arms around Terri, the brain-damaged Florida woman who is being starved to death. E-mail and phone calls (more than 150 at last count) are running 2-1 against me. "It's nuts, this 'life at all costs' mentality," a caller said. There was general agreement: Terri should die and starvation ain't so bad. "Her parents are being very selfish by keeping her alive. Your reference to her starving like the prisoners [at] Dachau and Bergen-Belsen? Oh, come on. She will not be in any pain. She will go gently to sleep. I'm a nurse." So let's starve death row inmates instead of killing them with lethal injections. I mean, if starvation is so gentle and painless. Ignore the faint-hearted who gripe this is "cruel and unusual" punishment. "Her brain is mush. There has never been a case of a person being in a [persistent vegetative] state this long and having any kind of recovery. There's not gonna be a recovery. She's 40-some years old. Who's gonna take care of her? Her parents? They're going to die soon themselves." A 1984 car crash left Terry Wallis of Mountain View, Ark., a quadriplegic. He lay silently in a "persistent vegetative state" for 19 years. Suddenly, in summer 2003, he began talking. He asked for his mother - and for a Pepsi. I spoke with his parents. Terry Wallis' wife, after swearing she would care for him forever, left him for another man and had kids with the guy. (Sound familiar?) Custody was given to his parents, who were often depressed. They prayed a lot. Today, Terry Wallis is determined to walk. His daughter, Amber, 6 weeks old in 1984, is 21 and cares for him. The most frequent gripe readers have is that I am not a doctor and so should not comment on Terri Schiavo's medical condition. "Interesting that you put yourself above trained doctors. As a doctor myself, I find this low mentality repugnant. You and Bush spread this dribble for your own good and care nothing about Terri, her wishes or her husband. Have you, Bush and the Republicans gone brain dead? If this is the case I hope someone pulls your plug." - Bill Helton I received many comments like that. Reading them gave me a headache - oops, I'm not a doctor. I'm not qualified to make that diagnosis. Sorry. [b]A neurologist from New Jersey sent me this: "I fear that our culture will push the line further as to who should live and who should die. I fear for the old, the young, the sick and the helpless. I fear becoming one of the helpless. - Maria Choy, M.D. Me, too. After Terri Schiavo, who will the culture-of-death vultures circle? A hint. Dr. Ronald Cranford, a neurologist whose medical opinion was key to a Florida judge ordering Terri Schiavo's feeding tube removed, was on TV this week candidly admitting he doesn't believe Alzheimer's patients have constitutional rights. So first it's people like Terri, then the Alzheimer's sufferers, then perhaps end-stage cancer victims, and so forth. Why not? Who would want to live like that? Are they not burdens? Charles Dickens captured it when he had Scrooge confront the do-gooders who wanted to save the helpless, deemed worthless to Victorian England. "If they had rather die they had better do it and decrease the surplus population." Mullane's opinion column appears Sunday

Oh I'm sure Terri will go straight into the arms of the Lord. but it seems that Congress and the Senate worked out legislation today to have the feeding of Terri re-started. They are trying to get it passed through tomorrow (Sunday) or in the early hours of Monday. It goes before a judge and then it goes to Pres Bush and this will reverse "Judge" Greer's decision and ensure that nourisgment is resumed until Terri's case gets to be heard in Congress - Thats how I understand the above report. It's terrific news for Terri. We need to keep praying for her - may the Lord keep her strong -until this is all resolved in her favour. Its an outrage what is happening to this woman and it is in man y respects precedent setting.

Compromise reached on measure to allow federal court review of Schiavo case, resume feeding SIOBHAN McDONOUGH Associated Press WASHINGTON - Congressional leaders hoped a deal reached Saturday would clear the way for a brain-damaged woman to resume being fed while a federal court reviews the right-to-die battle between her parents and her husband. "We think we have found a solution" to the Terri Schiavo case, House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, R-Texas, said at a Capitol Hill news conference. "I'm pleased to announce that House and Senate Republican leadership have reached an agreement on a legislative solution," Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist of Tennessee said a few hours later at the start of a brief Senate session. "Under the legislation we will soon consider Terry Schiavo will have another chance," said Frist. "We are confident this compromise addresses everyone's concerns, we are confident it will provide Mrs. Schiavo a clear and appropriate avenue for appeal in federal court, and most importantly, we are confident this compromise will restore nutrition and hydration to Mrs. Schiavo as long as that appeal endures," DeLay said. House approval was hoped for Sunday when the House planned to meet in a special session, he said. The Senate session Saturday evening was convened to formally give necessary permission for the House to meet Sunday, when it otherwise would be in recess under a previously passed Easter recess resolution. The plan is for the House to act on the two-page bill Sunday, or just after midnight Monday morning if someone objects to the bill being taken up on an expedited basis Sunday. Frist said the Senate then would act on the House legislation Sunday, assuming it passes the House as envisioned, and rush the bill to the president for signature into law. Otherwise, he said the Senate will meet again after the House acts early Monday At a news conference after the Senate session Saturday, Sen. Rick Santorum, R-Pa., chairman of the Senate Republican Conference, thanked the Democratic leadership for cooperating on an expedited procedure to consider the legislation. He singled out Democratic Sens. Ron Wyden of Oregon and Carl Levin of Michigan as two who had reservations about the bill, but agreed not to use Senate rules or traditions to block its consideration. As to the possibility Schiavo could die if a federal judge did not quickly order her feeding restored once the case landed in federal jurisdiction, Santorum said that would be "irresponsible abuse of the judge's authority" and that "I'm not going to speuclate on what I think is a remote possibility." President Bush was expected to sign the bill as soon as it gets to him. A White House spokesman, Jeanie Mamo, said the president, who was at his Texas ranch "was supportive of the efforts by congressional leaders. We remain in contact with Congress and the president is being kept apprised." The compromise was similar to a Senate bill passed Thursday that would let a federal court review the state judge's decision in the Schiavo case. House Republicans had favored broader legislation that applied similar cases that questioned the legality of withholding food or medical treatment from people who are incapacitated. Schiavo's feeding tube was disconnected Friday afternoon. Schiavo, 41, could linger for one to two weeks if no one intercedes and gets the tube reinserted. GOP Rep. James Sensenbrenner of Wisconsin, chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, said the measure was "narrowly targeted" and did not set a precedent. For a decade, a feud has raged between Schiavo's husband, Michael, and her parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, who have tried to oust Michael Schiavo as their daughter's guardian and keep in place the tube that has kept her alive for more than 15 years. Michael Schiavo says his wife, who was raised in the Philadelphia suburb of Huntingdon Valley, Pa., told him she would not want to be kept alive artificially. Her parents dispute that, saying she could get better and that their daughter has laughed, cried, smiled and responded to their voices. On Friday, Republicans used their subpoena power to demand that Schiavo be brought before a congressional hearing, with lawmakers saying that removing the tube amounted to "barbarism." The Florida judge presiding over the case rejected the request from House lawyers to delay the tube's removal. Late Friday, the U.S. Supreme Court, without comment, denied an emergency request from the House committee that issued the subpoenas to reinsert Schiavo's feeding tube while the committee filed appeals in the lower courts to have its subpoenas recognized. l

Well, I am not so sure I agree Being Canadian, of course, the perspective is a bit different.... But if one has travelled to other places i n the world the thing that stands out about the United States, for me, is that it is still unabashedly a country where the Name of Jesus is lifted up; where the rights & dignity of the individual are entrenched in the constitution. It is a country that still is on the cutting edge of different kinds of missionary outreach to the far corners of the earth ; and the country ( along with Britain) that supports Israel . .. From my perspective American IS beautiful.

Powerfully and beautifully stated, Riverleigh. RESTING IN HIM is not passive - it involves an active and total abandoning of self to Him. That is the only way we do endure. Thank you for the great study once again TSTH (Suzanne)

Robert S, quote: Job unquestionably his humility at the end of his trials for he said he 'despised' himself and repented in dust and ashes. He showed obedience in his day: the Bible states he was righteous "there was none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man" and one can assumethat he showed that obedience to the end of his days Jesus prayed in the Garden "Father let this cup pass by me ...yet, not my will but Thine be done." That to me is a statement of obedience- of a heart attitude that exceeds obedience- and reflects total abandonment to God's will.

tsth,quote: That is the operative question. Obedience to God, the Holy Spirit is the expression of our faith - tsth, quote: That is so provocative and profound. It gives me a lot to meditate on. . . How do you understand that, Suzanne ?

Skllet,quote: Super Jew, quote: .... ] Skillet, I guess Super Jew already raised the question I had - what are you saying about what happens to the soul / spirit after it leaves the body upon physical death?

Skillet: quote O.k. however, the way I understood it was that this is BEFORE Jesus died and was resurrected from the dead and ascended to the Father. My understanding was that He opened access to heaven up for his saints. That is why Paul could write in Hebrews 12: 14, 22 etc "You have not come to a mountain that cannot be touched ...you have come to Mount Zion to the heavenly Jerusalem the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands fo angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn whose names arewritten in heaven. You have come to God the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of the new convenant and to the sprinkled blood .... [/i

Skillet,quote: I am not , like a pastor or theologian, so my understanding of some of this is from what teaching I have received in Bible studies in our Church, etc. But as I understand it, there is a difference between where the spirit of man goes after he dies (either heaven or hell) and the various judgments. After we die our spirit goes to heaven to be with Jesus or it goes to hell. However the Bible talks about several different 'judgements'. (Some one on this board here is in all likelihood much more knowledgeable @ this, and can probably elucidate on the different Judgements more clearly ...) One of these "Judgements" is the 'Judgement of Believers' before the Judgement seat of Christ. This is not a judgement of condemnation, because the believers who died are already 'saved' and in Heaven with Jesus, and the ones who get raptured join this host of saints with Christ. But it is one of determining the believers rewards. It will take place at the Coming of Christ (ICor 3:13-15) The believers rewards are called 'Crowns' - which , after receiving them- we will lay at the feet of our glorious Lord and King, Jesus. There is so much awaiting the believer the moment we depart from this earth . . That is why Paul could say " our light & momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all"

skillet, quote: O.k. that is fair enough ,Skillet, but what do you make of these words: Paul writting In Philippians: "For to me to live is Christ and to die is gain ... I desire to depart andbe with Christ which is better by far.... )1:21/23) (I mean if, according to Paul, to live in this body 'is Christ', how can dying be 'gain' , if we do not actually go to be with Him . ..?) Or in 2 Cor 5:6 "As long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord... we are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord." And Jesus' word to the sinner on the cross: " I tell you this day you will be with me in paradise." Like 23:43 I take these passages literally to mean that when I die my spirit will go to be with Jesus in Heaven.

larryt,quote: As a response ot your question ,which is an important one i n this discussion, I think, this is my reflection . . . It is confusing because it is true the Bible does use the words 'soul' and 'spirit' interchangeably - But, I see the human being ' as being composed of (1)the body,(2) the soul ( which is the cognitive , emotions, & the personality) and (3) the spirit ( Paul and Peter refer to this as the "inner man" or the "spirit man") The way I understand it is that when we 'die' our it is our body that dies - and I suppose there is a medical definition for 'death'. It is the spirit which goes to be with the Lord. anyway perhaps this is a bit limited . . . .