DjZed

Yes. when we recieved our first child, a baby boy. looking down in the crib at him one night i just began to weep. It was an emotion that i had never felt to that degree before. I am not a very emotional man, i was very hardened in my youth and tears don't come easy. but that night i was full of emotion, and i ran to the same thoughts you did. emotions help us to balance our knowledge and knowledge helps us to balance our emotion. thats why my wife is my wife. Hearing your stories of love helps me to keep a perspective that says wow god IS at work, really at work, using all the body parts where they are needed. And it comes out in real life. to know god prepares these circumstances before us and prepares us for the circumstances. For his good pleasure and purpose, by the coucel and kind intention of his own will. ANYONE ELSE GOT A STORY OR TWO?

the best reading of the sovergn hand of god is our lives before us. Keep going, more, more..

It brought tears to mine, and i only read it. you lived it. Thanks

I wanted to read some of your stories of love towards people. Give one story out of your life that demonstrated to you what love looks like. either love toward you or your love towards another. Thanks.

Ok everyone, as was said in the other posts. This is a round and round discussion for everyone here. I dont know how long you each have been discussing this over the years. It is a prominate division amongst believers and it will always come up at some point in every believers life. Some will gravitate more then others on the matters at hand. This is not wrong. Nor should anyone thwart people in the church from expressing where they are at. it shows a part of who they are.It is a division, it is not a seeming division, it simply is. each one of us intrprets these diff. it is not merely because of the individual passages we quote. its because of the system of theoligy we come from. One example of this is the church and isreal. how we view them is part of how we intrpt each scripture mentioned. jews, gentiles, believers, unbelievers, choice, predestination, spiritual isreal, he who is a jew is one inwardly. And we do that because of how we might see gods unveiling himself to man. Example a dispensationilst says that the key to properly intrpt the whole of the scripture is through the eyes of dispensations. a covenantalist says that that the key to properly intrp the whole of scripture is through the eyes of covenants. New covenentalists say that the key to properly intrp the whole of scripture through the eyes of the new covenant. Many call these presuppositions. That is 1st we have the idea and then we read it into scripture. Though none of us would say we read into the scripture as we sit right now. If we look back at our lives we will see better how our ideas were formed. we can also see where we use to hold to such and such but now we hold to this and that. and how we have reached this point. The views in the sytems of theoligy mentioned see things gravely different. To the point of sinful division within the church. Now couple any other systems with those. Examples, put arminianism with dispensationalism. put covenentalists with calvinism, put dispensationalism with pre-mill pre- rapt., put covenentalism with post millenialism. All of these different combinations will produce a differnt view than the other. Those are just examples, i'm not saying that each one is coupled, just the idea of coupling Different systems. Does this mean we should stop discussing it? I dont think thats poss. We certainly don't want to say hey it's my way or the highway. Thats denominationalism. You agree with there systematic theoligy or you can't function in the body of christ properly. That is a hinderence of the use of ones gifts, and custom calls it church. Now because of my views on the church i know there is no hinderence for any believer to serve where is gifted. Denominations cant hinder that. Is fellowship about understanding doctrines. Part of it is and noone should have to feel that where they are at in thier theoligy is looked down on in a personal way. People might get the wrong idea with statements like. Beating a dead horse, have the shirt etc. I dont get the wrong idea, i'm not offended. i dont care what camp your in. I like the discussions. but some will be offended, and we dont want to offend someone because of negative comments made. Now ultimatly i say all this because if we want to concern ouselves with doctrines in this setting, we are going to discuss this over and over. It will not dissapear. There are many doctrines i dont agree with other than this discussion. but i dont enter those because thats not where i'm at. If i were into escat. right now i would be in discusions about my views on esct. Not to say i dont study esc. i just dont participate in those discussions. i might someday. And would like the option if i do, Not have it shut down because its repetitive. And others have been there longer than me. the only way to not divide over this is intentional on our individual part. Otherwise you would say, move on down the road its better for you down there. Which is like saying, we cant use your gifts here, or rather god cant use you here. So please allow the conversations to go as the do. When someone is done, they will move on. We all partake in these discussions together, and there are agendas as to why. Either we are looking into the subject because it is a new idea to us and we want to know more, or we are debating a subject, or we are trying to change someones mind about a subject. regardless, we are here. For the sake of those hearing a debate over something the opposing side should have a clear view of what it is the other believes. Some comments lead me to believe there is not a clearity of the others view. Both sides should be at least able to somewhat understand where the other comes from and present it in thier argument. as clearly a poss. Here in this discussion everybody is tryng to. it seems in all the discussions that noone has a clear understanding of what the other says. Doesnt meen you have to agree at all. it means you understand the perspective. Some have said that you are elected and some say you have a choice. The points ao calvinism and arminian thoughts are contradictive to one another. They always will be. They were in the begining of the debate when calvin first responded to the five subjects he disagreed with on arminiuses teachings. And they will continue till the end. Lets continue if thats what people want to do. In love. Danny

Not to be divisive, but the ishmealites were mentioned as having conspired against isreal because they hated god. I don't see islam mentioned. I did look in my concordance and found no refrence at all to the word "islam."

Yes, what anexample said!

I would say no also. as it was posted earlier it didnt come about until the 6th century.muslim tradition holds that god handed the quran to Muhammad. Muhammad was illiterate according to tradition. So he didnt just make this up. a little tidbit. a reason the quran is not reliable: Now in the quran, surat 61:6 "And remember, jesus, The son of Mary,said: "o children of isreal i am a messanger of allah(sent) to you, confirming the Taurat (which came) before me, and giving glad tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad. But when he came to them with clear signs they said," this is evident sorcery." Now the footnotes in the quran are similar to the bibles footnotes. This is what the quran says in the footnotes for "whos name shall be Ahmad." "Ahmad" or "Muhammed" is almost a translation of the greek word periclytos. In the present gospel of john 14:16 15:26 and 16:7, the word "Comforter" in the englidh version is translated paracletos, which means a"advocate",or "one called to the help of another, a kind friend",rather than "comforter". Our doctors contend that paracletos is a corrupt reading for pariclytos, and that in their original saying of jesus there was a prophecy of our holy Prophet Ahmad by name. Even if we read paraclete, it would apply to the holy prophet. There are several things interesting. The first is the statement "almost a translation". the others are found in jesus explination of who the paraclete, paracletos, or thier doctors version, pariclytos, pick one becuase it doesnt matter the word meant the Spirit of God. This is clear when reading the entire john texts. It is clearly the holy spirit, not almost a translation of ahmad. It is possable, ishmeal could be the father of many arabic peoples, i believe muhamad could have been from that side of the Issac - Ishmeal deal. God did promise hagar that He would make a great nation of ishmeal. Muslims just happen to be prominate in that nationality because of muhammad and what i believe was muhammads understanding of the OT scriptures. And what, i believe, he tried to change for his own benefit . Now there are bassically 5 main sects of muslims, much like denominations, they divide over issues. The "extremests" Thwart many of the techings in the quran. jihad is a big one, my understanding of jihad as taught by muhammad in the quran is that if they are being persucuted they are to fight(jihad) and kill untill there is no more persucution of them. If the persucuters stop then just as god has mercy they should stop killing. just info. Somewhat pertains.

When You Look At The Huge Distance God Reaches Down To Offer Us His Salvation It Sure Does Seems Like We Do Nothing..... "The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee." Jeremiah 31:3 Then I Read..... Choose You This Day Whom Ye Will Serve "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15 And Again When I Read..... Whosoever Will Let Him Take The Water Of Life Freely "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Revelation 22:16-17 I'm Led To Believe That God Really Did Mean It When He Offered The Lord Jesus Up For ALL Men To See And To Believe In And To Have Everlasting Life! "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:14-16 If We Would Just Repent "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;" Acts 3:19 Just Confess And Believe That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:9-10 And By His Grace, God Even Offers The Very Faith Needed For Salvation "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9 If We Would But Believe God..... "They that sow in tears shall reap in joy. He that goeth forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed, shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bringing his sheaves with him." Psalms 126:5-6 Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING The LORD bless thee, and keep thee: The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace. And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 Love, Your Brother Joe I know where your coming from. i personally do not think these are contrary to election. The preaching of the gospel is heard and those who are his hear him.

I must 1st start off by appoligizing to patricia and all the readers here. But most of all to our god for misrepresting who he is. I made the comment " predestined for wrath" in two replies. I do not believe this. I do not hold to that thought and will not try to excuse it. Please do not let this hinder our discussions. Thank you guys for calling that one out. Now in response to the comment onwingsasaneagle made "Predestination is so unfair to the people not predestined to goto heaven" What i am saying is that you,me and all who have ever believed were guilty. We deserved what the unbelievers will get. So the whole world is guilty and deserves to be seperated from god eternally. That is what we deserved too. So in all true fairness it is we who get what we dont deserve. unbelievers get what they deserve. That is justice, and it is mercy that is given to the believer. It is fair for them. its not an issue of fairness. Its about gods sovergn choice of people. I say that because of my views of who is being talked about in romans 9 or the whole layout of romans for that matter. So if i believe that the vessels of wrath are unbelievers then i am forced to say that your choice is a work based on how i see the scripture. VRS 23 and 24 is what tends to point me to seeing the context as being about believers and unbelievers, as well as others scripture in romans. If that is the case then paul is making the point that it is about believers in contrast with unbelievers. Gods choice not mans. That is why i brought up merit. Response to 1 thess. 4:1 You siad " we are able to look towards god to please Him" I dont disagree, but i see the key in the scripture as well as your statement as being "brethren" and "We" , Belivers. Romans 8:7,8 The mind set on the flesh is hostile toward god; it does not subject itself to the law of god and is not able to do so. Those in the flesh cannot please god.(unbelievers) However you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit dwells in you.( believers).(believers are not in the flesh but in the Spirit if the Spirit is actually in them, if the Spirit is not in them they cannot please god.) So in your view, is your choice pleasing to god?

i want to reply to this but don't have time. I will be back hopefully friday to continue with you all! Thanks, i enjoy this greatly.

Predestination is so unfair to the people who are not predestined to go to heaven. If I have no control over my belief and have already been predestined to go to heaven, then we do those who are not controlled with belief and are not predestined? Do they not have a choice that they are going to hell? The Spirit does not do this for people. God does not start working in our lives until after we have been born again. Not before. It is our hearing of the "Word" that causes us to believe - Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. God is no respecter of persons. Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God. Ephesians 6:9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him. Predestination and not having control over my belief is "respecting persons". You do choose to believe in Jesus or this scripture would be unfair Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. And Jesus would not have, "whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life". The "whosoever" is leaving the salvation of Jesus left open for the whole world and that is why he died for the whole world. Its not a matter of fairness. we all deserve hell. thats true fairness. It is the mercy and forgiveness of god given to us freely by god that you say is unfair! Does your choice make it fair or unfair? How is that god being a respector of persons? Because hes sovergn and chose us. he did not choose me on any merit at all. Thats what romans mainly addresses. salvation not based on works of the law. or any work,deed, word spoken or prayer. You were not even able to look towards god. You could never please him. But his sheep hear his voice and they know him. You recognized your redemtion. it doesnt meen you chose redemtion, you only recieved redemtion.

reply is to onwingsofaneagle vrs 4 belongs to isrealites vrs 5 the fathers( included abram the gentile) the christ according to the flesh ( isreal ) vrs 6 the word of god did not fail, -----the word did not fail, isrealites who had no faith did.(the unbeliever) not all isreal (physical isreal) is isreal ( beliveing isreal) vs 7 they are not children of god (believers)because they are abrahams seed ( physical isreal) vs 8 not the children of the flesh( physical isreal) but the children of the promise are regarded as descendents( believers) vs 9 a word of promise, sarah shall have a son - which is in refrence to the descendents in vs 8 vs 10 11 12 13 / not only that but rebekah had twins, they hadnt done anything good or bad and god says jacob i loved, esau i hated. but this was in order that gods choice might stand, not because of works, but because of HIM whou calls. (He chose jacob who was a gentile until he was renamed,the 1st of physical and believing isreal. esau was a gentile) vs 14 , so, is there any injustice with god,no. vs 15 god has mercy and compasion on whom he choses (physical isreal & gentile) vs 16 doesnt depend on man who wills or runs, depends on god who has mercy.(gentile & physical isreal) vs 17 pharoh was raised up that gods name would be proclaimed throught whole earth(gentile egypt, Physical isreal) vs 18 god has mercy(believing gentiles and believing isreal) and hardens whom he desires.(Gentiles and physical isrea) vs.19 if god does this why does he find fault in us vs 20 who are you to dispute god the thing molded doesnt say why did you make me this way. vs 21 the potter has right over the clay to make from the same lump one for honor(believers) one for dishonor (unbelievers). vs 22 what if god, although willing to demonstrate his wrath,had patience with vessels of wrath (unbelievers) vs 23 God endured so that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mery, which he prepared beforehand for glory (all believers), whom he called , not from the jews only, but from the gentiles also. i'll stop there. Paul is trying to get them to understand throughtout romans several things. I think the point here is that believers are believers because god makes them that way.its not based on the physical anything,not works, not works of the law,not on geneoligy, but on god. It is about a sovergn god. I do not get that vessels of distruction are the gentiles out of this passage. paul does focus quite a bit here on the jew/gentile relationships so i can see reading into the text.

Thank you. the thing is i don't really go anywhere. The circumstances are ALWAYS laid out before me. I just follow them to see where they might lead. some have lead to freindships,intimate, and some have not. belivers and unbelievers alike. some who were unbelievers we have continued relationships with have sinse become believers. This was not my doing, but gods, he saved them,and not solely through the use of us. I had to shift from i and me to we and us. my wife and children are a huge part in these freindships.

Friends is biblical. I don't see that it is biblical to purposly not be friends with sinners. Sin is sin, blatent or in your heart. Uncomfortable? if your conscience is seered, then stay away. Which is why i said in an earlier post, RUN THE OTHER WAY!For my concience says, Whatever god lays before me i will pursue. In this process i have become "friends" with many people, believers and unbelievers. I am not afraid to share intimate things with anyone. Should i use this only with my family. NO! i use my life with all people that i might win some. Does this mean i have christian fellowship with all, of course not, how can you have true fellowship with an unbeliever? As its been said, light & darkness have no fellowship. If you see it does no good for you, fine. To say it does no good for them is to mock the sovergnty of god! Christ is glorified, you once again speak of someonelses eyes. I dont see how you can say if christ is glorified in thier eyes. Doesnt matter. Christ is glorified in me. I have a life statement so to speak. "the gospel to the unbeliever and the scripture to the believer."So with my unbeliveing "friends" I preach the gospel, to my beleiving friends i exhort from the scripture. My whole life. The only gift i know to give. Parumpumpumpum. I don't need rules and regulations for god to protect me. God will protect me and nothing will pluck me from his hand! The point of the traffic violations was simple to point out that it against the law. ie. illegal. It's interesting how you use the words "accidently", and "Moment of lack of consintration" As if that makes it less illegal. Once again, i said this in response to the 1st post. Trying to encourage her that it was alright to have friends that were unbelivers.Giving a much more extreme situation as an example. some ran with it. Was not the prostitute considered a friend. or was christ only a friend after she belived. Thats only one of many bible stories we could relate to friendships believer/unbeliever situations. You don't see a clear statment word wise from jesus about his being god, but his actions demonstrated it and thus they sought to kill him because of blashemy Whats the matter with pool,cards,clubs and pubs.is it because sinners are there? where is this clearity you speak of in the scripture not to associate with them? Keep the light on. I'll pray god send them!

Those are not proof text for being slain in the spirit. explain your interp of these. If you had an idea about being slain in the spirit and then read these i suppose you could believe it, however im not big on reading into the text.

You are correct vicki. it is for another board. My excellent response was to the observance of denominations, The real question asks for scriptual proof of being slain in the spirit. Well. Anyone? thanks for putting the board back into perspective.

excellent!!

Listen, I think this is getting off. Did i say to place yourselves purposefully into situations if i did that is not what i meant.. God lays out our lives before us. I dont set out to got parties, and hang out with so called bad people. This is what happens when your neighbor is not friendly, gangsta guns and all with his prison parole king-flo. It is where i was at that moment. I had no control. I have 100 stories of living in that house. All from different renters in the same house next door. But it taught me many things about the lost. Just because i as a beliver have not such a big problem with it. Sis is Sin. Thanks be to christ we, the belivers, are freed. Expierience does not come without error. Should i feel guilty because i know god breaks down all barries. i've started many long relationships with people in that house next door. two which have become believers. Nomatter the depths of thier wickedness the gospel must be preached. So please i dont mean to say put yourselves in the midst of wickedness, i was only giving an extreme in contrast with the o.g. message. She was worried about hanging out with her unbelieving friends. I exhorted her with an extreme that she might see that it was alright. I thought i was doing it within the context of my understanding of the character of god in his sovernty. And the redemtion of men. I dont think i told her to not hang out with believers.

Cant say if he would have chosen someoneelse. if he did it would mean the same for the redemption of man. Yes christ did lay down his own life. My opinion is that yes even the wicked are chosen fo their role. And yes you would have been predestined, but for wrath not salvation. God has not chosen any one for wrath,we bring wrath upon ourselves,by not accepting the free gift of salvation offered to ALL who will receive it. Read romans Vessels i belive. god has predestined them for wrath. That is what they were made for. But has predestined the elect for restoration to himself. Predestined us for glory! God has shown his mercy to those fitted for destruction(the Gentiles)so that they too may receive Christ and escape God's wrath. The only ones that will endure the wrath of God are those that choose to reject the salvation offered to us ALL. So these are just two camps of believers in this passage? the ones prepared for destruction are the saved gentiles? Do my questions make sense?

explain with a little more depth. not sure exactly what you are saying.

Cant say if he would have chosen someoneelse. if he did it would mean the same for the redemption of man. Yes christ did lay down his own life. My opinion is that yes even the wicked are chosen fo their role. And yes you would have been predestined, but for wrath not salvation. God has not chosen any one for wrath,we bring wrath upon ourselves,by not accepting the free gift of salvation offered to ALL who will receive it. Read romans Vessels i believe. god has predestined them for wrath. That is what they were made for,lest they repent. But has predestined the elect for restoration to himself. That elect will repent. Predestined us for glory! predestination will be determined by the way we look at the scripture. One camp says isreal and the church are the same, the other says the church and isreal are completly distinct. I hold to a place in the middle. Not the same, yet not completly diff. So my intrp will be diff on the wedding feast and romans both.

I think you have taken the idea of eating or drinking with unbelievers to an extreme. Not only is there no scripture telling us to befriend the unsaved...but there is certainly no scriptures telling us that we should put ourselves into illegal situations to do so. In my opinion, you should be uncomfortable around blantant sin, and illegal activity. perhaps you misunderstand. Paul says not to even eat with them. I assumed this was a part of the original post givers mind set. I merely pointed that jesus hung out with sinners and the religous people judged him for it. We should not be judged for this. My own personal ministry sets aside what is legal or not. Im not concerned with others breaking the law, only thier soul. Thats not saying i would not encourage them to obey the law. I dont suggest all belivers should put them in those situations. If somehow you think i shouldnt hang around things illigal for the sake of christ, i would say to hang around them for the sake of christ. Do you speed, do you not wear a seatbelt, do you not come to a full stop at a stop sign. Have you ever broken these laws. If you have did it somehow glorify god. The question would be to me. do i sin when in these situations. Is god glorified? because i am preaching the gospel he is..I can identify with these types of sinners. That was the world in which i was bought out of. Now that i am a new creation and i came from there i go back for the sake of partaking in calling out the sheep.