wingnut-

Continued from post #317.... Well, you are the first person I have ever heard try to say that the imagery established here is not referring to the rapture. Let me clarify this for you, so you will understand this is no problem for me to reconcile with everything. You answered it yourself, where are they taken? What imagery is this we are given? Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.” 19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh. The reason you will find those taken here, is because they were resurrected just prior to this, and from that point on they will be following Jesus wherever He goes. They represent part of that army following Him. This is where He goes, so this is where you will find those taken, understand? Oh and by the way, what precedes the above passage. Revelation 19:15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. Again, this is the phrase referencing His reign, the millenium, applied to this specific battle, also linked to the Fall of Babylon with the reference to the winepress, and when do all these things happen? On the last day. The millenium is a day, not a thousand years. Everything you associate with the millenium is referring to eternity. His reign is one of vengeance, there is a huge difference between the two. Again, what does Peter say? II Peter 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. Peter is discussing the day of the Lord in this entire chapter, so any attempt to say this does not apply to the end times is futile. And what is that one thing we are not to forget? A day= a thousand years. The millenium is a day, the day of the Lord. It is a day of extreme violence and wrath. II Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. Peter goes on to attach the symbol of the thief directly to the day of the Lord. Why? Simple, because this is when He comes, on the beginning of this day, when that 7th trumpet sounds. So to answer your question, who populates the millenial kingdom? Revelation 6:15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?” These people above, which are also these people below. Revelation 9:20 The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. 21 Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts. Which are also these same people. Revelation 16:16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon. And let us not forget these people. Revelation 11:13 At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. Mostly what is left at this point are opposed to God. The majority of believers will have been executed by this point, whatever remains will either be locked up in prison awaiting execution, or the group of survivors in Jerusalem who give glory to God following the first resurrection. Keep in mind that Jerusalem has been handed over to the Gentiles for this 42 month period, so these survivors are most likely Gentiles. He will rule them with an iron scepter, and somehow you equate this with rest? There is no rest, there is judgement, wrath. Rest comes when everything has been placed under his feet. Really, who is speaking here? Revelation 16:15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.” Who is coming? Jesus. Who gave us the sign of the thief? Jesus. If this were a snake, it would bite you. There are 7 trumpets in Revelation, following the 7th trumpet, there are no more trumpets mentioned. That would make the 7th trumpet, the last trumpet, which is precisely what Paul wrote. The fact is, this is precisely when the resurrection occurs, before the 6th judgements have finished this last trumpet will sound. This is what scripture says. Incorrect. The event is His second coming, the sign attached to it by Jesus is the thief, and also the fig tree, as well as the signs in the heavenly bodies. Each one of these appears during the 6th judgements, not prior to the tribulation, but during it, and very near the end. So when you read Revelation 16:15 understand that this is what He is saying. "Look, I am coming. Two men will be in the field, one will be taken and the other left." That is precisely what He is telling you here. This is a great big neon sign flashing at you. The above statement was made in response to Revelation 14. First, it must occur when the tribulation is still in progress, because that is when He comes by all accounts of scripture. It is also when John writes that the first resurrection takes place. Anyway, let's look at these two resurrections in chapter 14, the same two resurrections you see in chapter 20. Revelation 14:14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested. This is the first resurrection. Revelation 14:17 Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18 Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.” 19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia. This is the second resurrection. These are the only two resurrections that occur in this time period. Notice that Jesus does the first resurrection, and the angel does the second resurrection. Also pay attention to what is said in the second resurrection, again, this reference to the winepress points to the Fall of Babylon. What is the final thing to be destroyed? Death. If death is gone, then there are no more dead. The command comes from God the Father, because He is the only one who knows the day or hour. Jesus is waiting for the Father to give the word, we all know that. The angel is merely delivering a message, one of the tasks we quite often see an angel doing. What does the angel say, "for the time to reap has come." What time do you think he is referring to? Incorrect. While we agree that overcomers are not in need of an invitation, this can be said because this book is a prophetic one, and is speaking to what is to come. This entire prophecy was for all the churches from the day it was written until we arrive at the end. You are trying to take what this says and apply it as if "it is done", big difference in perspectives there. Something else to add for consideration. The Israelites did not come up out of Egypt until after the ten plagues. Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego went in to the fiery furnace. Daniel went in to the Lion's den. Noah went through the flood. Jesus suffered the cross. The apostles went through their tribulation. People right now are being killed for their faith in Jesus. It goes on and on and on.... Anyway, I think that covers everything. I look forward to your reply, God bless you.

Hello again ranger, Thank you, and yes my Christmas was joyful, hope yours was as well. You are more than welcome for the response, I am always willing to discuss scripture. I will start with your first question and work my way down, but I would like to attempt to stay with the original topic. Specifically the resurrection topic. I think this is the epi-center, and so we have to work our way out from there. However, this chronology issue has to be addressed, so I am going to present some scripture and ask you some direct questions that I must know your answer to in order to understand what you are saying. I am slightly puzzled by the question, because I thought we agreed that the rapture is a resurrection, yet now you are trying to separate the two. But to answer the question, how can this be the first resurrection when the two witnesses were resurrected in chapter 11? Revelation is not chronological. Revelation 11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.” 16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: “We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. 18 The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small— and for destroying those who destroy the earth.” Revelation 22:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. The judging of the dead only occurs once, the first passage is from Chapter 11 (Your midway point), do you see the problem here? Which ones demand that they are different judgements? Hopefully the above example will have changed your thought process on this issue. The scripture tells us that Revelation is not chronological. When I got my degree in eschatology, I knew of no one that held your viewpoint on that, and they all believed what you are presenting, including me. Now it's been awhile, but I'm not that old If ncn sees that he won't be able to resist Anyway, I am just wondering if that is the majority viewpoint now? I seriously see no argument here scripturally. Anyway, let's get back to the resurrection. Revelation 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. Fact 1. There are three different groups of people: those who had been given authority to judge, those who had been beheaded, the rest of the dead. Who do you think these three groups represent? Fact 2. All three groups are dead. Fact 3. Two of the groups: those who had been given authority to judge, those who had been beheaded come to life and reign with Him for the thousand years. Fact 4. The same two groups are part of the first resurrection. Fact 5. The same two groups are blessed and holy. Fact 6. The same two groups are not affected by the second death. Fact 7. The same two groups will be priests of God and Christ. Fact 8. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the second resurrection. The millenium separates the two as stated in the passage. You seem confused on this, because in your responses it looks like you only see those who had been beheaded, and you stated that the first resurrection occurs after the millenium. Neither of those are true. Revelation is a complete accounting of the end times, John is not addressing the past, he is speaking to the future. That is what a Revelation is, a revealing. The resurrection of Christ was a given, he was clear on that in his gospel, and he touches on that again at the beginning of the book. When he writes first resurrection, it is because it is the first resurrection within this book of prophecy. And this prophetic book is dealing with a very specific time, the end time. In doing so, John is telling you that this book is not chronological, because of the resurrection of the two witnesses 9 chapters prior to this. He is telling you that the two witnesses are part of the first resurrection. The same thing Paul tells us, "the dead in Christ shall rise first". You are seriously trying to argue that first doesn't mean first? Does Alpha not mean Alpha? I'm afraid that the scriptures you posted do not at all suggest what you claim to me, I will address your first offering and explain to you what this means to me. Matthew 20:20 Then the mother of Zebedee’s sons came to Jesus with her sons and, kneeling down, asked a favor of him. 21 “What is it you want?” he asked. She said, “Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom.” 22 “You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said to them. “Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?” “We can,” they answered. 23 Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.” 24 When the ten heard about this, they were indignant with the two brothers. 25 Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” The goal of this passage is to be "first", to please God. To do this you must have a servant's heart; contrite, humble, and happy to be so. In short, to be Christlike. This speaks to the very heart of the overall message in scripture from beginning to end, and does the opposite of what you are suggesting. The problem you have here is fairly simple, you are forgetting to apply what you already know, and trying to dismiss the word "first" as if God wrote it by mistake. The two witnesses are dead, correct? Paul tells us that the dead in Christ rise first, and then those who are alive join them, correct? Therefore when the two dead witnesses rise, those alive will follow them, correct? In your scenario you have those alive going ahead of the dead, do you see the problem? Certainly the two witnesses qualify as the dead in Christ, correct? This all comes from disregarding the word "first" in Revelation 20. The passage in Revelation 11 establishes that the two witnesses receive the "breath of life", displaying that they receive their glorified body here, and you are trying to separate them from the first resurrection. This only happens once in scripture prior to the millenium when addressing the end times. They are the same event, this is one of the many things that illustrate how Revelation is not chronological. Exactly, and what is the definition of the word first? According to Thorndike Barnhart dictionary it is this. first , adj. 1a coming before all others; before anything else: Sunday is the first day of the week. First is used as the ordinal of one, in which it may be written, 1st. SYN: earliest, original, initial, chief, foremost, principal, leading. 1b foremost in position, rank, or importance: He is first in his class. 2a playing or singing the part highest in musical pitch: first violin, first soprano. 2b highest in musical pitch 3 designating the lowest gear ratio of a standard automobile transmission; low. first , adv. 1 before all others; before anything else: We eat first and then feed the cat. The good die first (Wordsworth) 2 before some other thing or event: First bring me the chalk. 3 for the first time: When first I met her, she was a child. 4 rather; sooner: The soldiers said they would never give up their flag, but would die first. I'll go to jail first. first, n. 1 a person, thing, or place that comes before all others; first number or member of a series: We were first to get here. 2 the winning position in a race or contest. 3 the first day of the month: I'll see you on the first. 4 baseball. first base. 5 the beginning: the first of a storm. 6 the first gear; low gear. 7 the voice or instrument of its class taking the highest part. 8 British. a) a place in the first class in an examination: a first in Physics. b) a person who has taken a place in the first class. Before all others; before anything else. Re-defining words does not work for me, I am an English major after all. That should be easy enough, just post the passage of scripture that establishes the "types" of resurrections in the end times and let's have a look. I only see two types of resurrection in regards to the end times one of the living, and one of the dead. Ironically, they are the only two that John or Daniel see as well. So that would be the criteria necessary, scripture that speaks to this other type of resurrection, what do we call it? I completely agree that understanding is not only possible, but expected. Which is why your assertion that first does not mean first is untenable. If first does not mean first, then it is not understandable at all, that would be confusion. Your acknowledgement of this is contradictory to your conclusions and how you have to arrive at them. You say: God wrote a book anyone can understand, but the word first doesn't mean first, see the problem? What it appears you are trying to suggest here is that John being in the spirit somehow equates to this missing event in your scenario. Consider that this is in chapter 4, and look at what John says in chapter 1. Revelation 1:9 I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. 10 On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, 11 which said: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.” First off, John was in the spirit here, correct? Is this the rapture as well? Three chapters apart, visions are random my friend, which means they should not be viewed chronologically. There are so many examples that it is not in sequence throughout, I just keep offering them to you. In addition, there is nothing in scripture to support joining the phrase "in the spirit" with the rapture or any resurrection. Are we not "in the spirit" when we read scripture? When we pray? During worship? On top of that, John would have died more than once in your scenario, because he wrote Revelation after the vision and died some time later. He could not have been there and gone through the entire thing without having died himself at the first resurrection. He still has to write it down, see the problem here? I want to offer you an illustration from my personal perspective for your consideration and response. Revelation 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. My father passed away some time ago now, he was a christian, he believed the same thing you do. Right now he is with Jesus, and when we arrive at the first resurrection, he is one of those who had been given authority to judge. Currently, our brothers and sisters in Christ are being murdered all over the world, particularly in Africa. Many of them have been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. Right now they are with Jesus, and when we arrive at the first resurrection, they are in that second group. We also know for certain that this second group includes people from within the great tribulation. This is the first resurrection, see the problem? The passage clearly states, "They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years." They came to life, think about that. There are only two types of resurrection in relation to the end times, one for the living, and one for the dead. One takes place before the millenium, the other takes place after. Do you not see in scripture that the group in this first resurrection are the ones to reign with Him? Does scripture not tell you that you are in that group? Your argument doesn't even agree with itself. This is why I no longer believe what you currently do. I am not attacking anyone with this viewpoint, I am displaying why it falls apart under scrutiny, as it did for me. Everything I have to say I have already said to myself, so I want to be clear that all of this comes from the heart, with all the love of Jesus that is in me. The above statement was in response to what I posted regarding the letters to the churches. We don't disagree that they will be caught up, the question is when. There is nothing in any of these letters to indicate that these churches are removed prior to the first resurrection. In fact, the only one to imply that any of them are going anywhere points right to the first resurrection. And then there is this letter. Revelation 2:8 “To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again. 9 I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know about the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown. 11 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death. Focus on the underlined passages please. Do not be afraid of what your are about to suffer. The devil is going to put some of them in prison. Not wicked men, not corrupt chiefs, the devil. When does this take place? Revelation 13:3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast. 4 People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?” 5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to wage war against the saints and to conquer them. Revelation 13:9 Whoever has ears, let them hear. 10 “If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity they will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword they will be killed.” This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints. John connects these two things together, in each letter to the churches he uses the phrase "Whoever has ears, let them hear", and you will notice right here in these passages the word "saints", which is the equivalent of believers, which is what we call those within the church today, saints. You say the church is gone, and yet here they are. And what does John write at the end of the letter to Smyrna, The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death. And who in Revelation 20 is not hurt by the second death? Those who take part in the first resurrection. That includes this church, they are part of the first resurrection, which happens just prior to the millenium. There is nothing in the letter to Smyrna to indicate the Lord has one single grievance with this church, and what is said to them places them right in the midst of the mark of the beast, do you see the problem here? Jesus tells us over and over again to be prepared. What you suggest is that I need to be prepared for an evacuation that will come unexpectedly. If I am being evacuated unexpectedly, what do I need to be prepared for? I have nothing to worry about at that point. When Jesus tells me to be prepared, this is what I think of. Ephesians 6:10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people. 19 Pray also for me, that whenever I speak, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it fearlessly, as I should. Paul tells us how to prepare ourselves for the day of evil, what does that mean to you? Paul tells us to stand our ground in that day, what does that say to you? Paul emphasizes to stand firm then, in that day of evil, what does that say to you? I fear you are preparing yourself for an evacuation, when scripture makes it apparent you should be preparing for war. Furthermore, this is the message being given to the future generation, so this is why I challenge what you are saying with scripture. This letter is also written to the church, see the problem here? Your above response is regarding this passage from I Corinthians. I Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Surely you can't be serious. Paul places this precisely where John does in Revelation, just prior to the millenium (verse 25). He finishes the job, and puts everything under his feet. The exact same sequence John gives, but in verse 23 Paul specifies the order of resurrection to a glorified body. Christ, the firstfruits, then when he comes, those who belong to Him. Then the end will come. It says exactly what it says. To suggest that the passage does not speak to the timeline in the end leaves me with this expression. Continued......

Continued from post #304..... We see the second woe pass here. Revelation 11:11 But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on. 13 At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon. This is the passage where we see the two witnesses resurrected. This coincides with the 6th trumpet as previously shown. Again we see this very specific hour mentioned. Each resurrection mentioned in Revelation all point to the same place, precisely where John says the first resurrection occurs. Just prior to the millenium, at the conclusion of the 6th day of Daniel's seventieth week/ the beginning of the 7th day, or the last day. And what happened on the 6th day in the beginning? Genesis 1:25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. Genesis 1:27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them. Genesis 1:30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so. 31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day. The breath of life in the beginning, and we saw the breath of life for the end with the resurrection of the two witnesses above, eternal life. Also take note of the command they were given, "Come up here." Isn't that what we are expecting to hear as well? I believe the specific day and hour refer to the last day, and an hour within that day. I believe that day is the millenium. What all of this tells me is that Jesus will come like a thief at the very beginning of the final day, Satan is bound at the same time, he is released for this final hour within that day. This would include the Fall of Babylon, which chapter 18 tells us happens in a specific hour of a specific day. This would also include the battle of Armageddon, where we see the enemy gather immediately following the Lord's announcement that He comes like a thief. The final woe is attached to the 7th trumpet as we've seen, which is also the last trumpet to be sounded, and we see these things associated with it. Revelation 10:5 Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven. 6 And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, “There will be no more delay! 7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.” I Corinthians 15:50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. All of these things tie together, and they all point to the same place at the same time. These 6th and 7th judgements are happening rapidly, just as we were told they would by Isaiah, whom Paul pointed us to in Romans below. Romans 9:27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved. 28 For the Lord will carry out his sentence on earth with speed and finality.” God is not cruel, following the resurrection where John places it, and in alignment with all the signs given, we see this following the 6th trumpet, which indicates this is the result of the second woe. Revelation 9: 20 The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. 21 Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts. There are only those opposed to God left for this final day, the Day of the Lord, when He will rule all the nations with an "iron scepter." Why the iron scepter? To finish the battle for good. That is precisely what we see happen on that last day. We are following Him as He finishes off sin, this is our reign on this earth. All of His children are following Him as this happens, and at the conclusion of the day those who died outside His grace will be resurrected and judged. Matthew chapter 24 wraps up where we have weeping and gnashing of teeth. Chapter 25 consists of the three parables which indicate three different types of judgements. This wraps up the answer to the disciple's second question to Jesus, as to where the age ended. That is twice that Jesus specifically tells us the end of the age occurs after the Great White Throne judgement, as illustrated in the final verse of the chapter. Matthew 25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” In chapter 15 of I Corinthians, we see Paul break down the resurrection, beginning with the resurrection of Jesus, then the resurrection of the dead, and then the resurrection body itself. When he is speaking about the resurrection of the dead, he writes this. I Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Scripture establishes a clear order for the resurrection of the dead, right here. It begins with Jesus, then the firstfruits, and then when he comes, those who belong to Him. And who belongs to Him? His sheep. This is the order we will be resurrected in, this is also confirmed by Paul several more times in the book of Romans. Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. Romans 2:9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism. In short, to convince me that this is all coincidence is a monumental task in itself, but that will be easy compared to convincing me that Jesus gave us bad directions. The signs He gave us are clear, what He attaches them to are clear as well. The sign of the thief is attached to the most vivid portrayal of the rapture in all of scripture, there is no doubt that is what He is referring to. Paul and John each invoke this sign into their writings. I will close this post with what I see as the most beautiful depiction of the rapture from Revelation. Revelation 14:14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested. We see Jesus right where we are told we will meet Him, on a cloud, waiting for God the Father to say it is time. In the twinkling of an eye we will be with Him, and on our way to finish the job. Revelation 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. 21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God’s people. Amen.

Hello again Ranger and Merry Christmas, Thanks for the clarification on how you see things, as I understand you see 4 resurrections, in the order I had them. Where I only see 2. I suppose that is the best place to start. The obvious question is, why does John write this is the first resurrection? Revelation 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Verse 5 should state third resurrection according to what you present. Verse 4 is critical as well, John describes two different groups: those with authority to judge, and people from the great tribulation. There is no question who the second group is, so who is the first group? This comes from Paul's first letter to the Corinthians. I Corinthians 6:3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! It appears to me that both the church from Corinth and believers in the end are resurrected together. Paul is writing to the church here, and I understand the context of the passage. The point is, it was written. Those would be my first two problems with this. Another problem I have is this, we see the two witnesses resurrected in Rev. 11:12, yet John says the first resurrection takes place much later. And I also do not see the other resurrection you mentioned (Number 1 from the earlier list) anywhere in Revelation. The church is there in the beginning, exactly what point do they leave? This is what I see. Beginning with the church in Ephesus: Revelation 2:4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. He says this to the church in Smyrna: Revelation 2:10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown. 11 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death. He says this to the church in Pergamum: Revelation 2:16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. He says this to the church in Thyatira: Revelation 2:24 Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan’s so-called deep secrets, ‘I will not impose any other burden on you, 25 except to hold on to what you have until I come.’ 26 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— He says this to the church in Sardis: Revelation 3:3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you. He says this to the church in Philadelphia: 10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth. 11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12 The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name. He says this to the church in Laodicea: Revelation 3:19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. 20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me. 21 To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” Only one of these churches seems to be going anywhere, and that is the church in Philadelphia. They are told because of their patient endurance they will be kept from a specific hour. The phrase patient endurance shows up with regularity following the anti-christ rising from the fatal head wound, it is in relation to saints. This hour is significant, as it comes up repeatedly throughout the book of Revelation, and Jesus Himself made mention of a very specific day and hour. It was in response to very specific questions asked of Him privately by the disciples. Matthew 24:3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” What follows this is His response, all the way up to chapter 26 of Matthew. This is the most accurate, chronological telling of these events, they come from Jesus, and He answers their questions in the order they were asked. 1. The sign of His coming. Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the distress of those days “‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. 32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. The red letters above are specific signs we are given by Jesus in regards to His coming. So what is the purpose of a sign? To point one in a direction. For starters, this is after "the abomination that causes desolation". But let's see where these signs appear in the book of Revelation. Revelation 6:12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Continuing on in Matthew, Jesus follows the above signs with this. Matthew 24:36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. A very specific day and hour is to follow what He has already told us will take place. Then He speaks about how it was before the great flood, which to me is speaking to the fact that people paid no heed to the signs and events. In Noah's time they laughed at him, as I understand it, they were not too concerned until the water started to rise. I don't see any reason why in the end time that people would react any differently, they are downright defiant according to John. Matthew 24: That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. 42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him. This to me is the clearest depiction of "the rapture" in all of scripture, and the sign Jesus attaches to it is "the thief." And where do we find that in the book of Revelation. Revelation 16:12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty. 15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.” 16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon. Verse 15 holds the symbol, the very sign Jesus gives us Himself in His depiction of "the rapture." This is the 6th bowl, the previous sign was following the 6th seal, and we see this in the 6th trumpet. Revelation 9:12 The first woe is past; two other woes are yet to come. 13 The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the four horns of the golden altar that is before God. 14 It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. Here we see the Euphrates coming up again, and the mention of a very specific day and hour, with emphasis. 6th trumpet, 6th seal, 6th bowl. Note that the first woe occurred following the 5th trumpet. We see the "three woes" attached to the last three trumpets in this passage at the conclusion of the 4th trumpet below. Revelation 8:13 As I watched, I heard an eagle that was flying in midair call out in a loud voice: “Woe! Woe! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels!” This is probably too long already, so I am going to continue in another post.

Amen.

Hello again Judith, I appreciate what you are saying, but I assure you I understand the context of the passages, so let's get right to the message of what is being said from your persective. What is the "unpardonable sin?" The easiest way to confirm this is to look at the opposite end of the spectrum. How does one gain salvation? Jesus Christ. Therefore the opposite of this is to reject Him. Most people commonly think of this as rejecting the Holy Spirit, although the overall message in scripture to me would be that it is rejecting Jesus Himself. This in turn is rejecting all three members of the Trinity, so while both statements are true, the perspective changes things slightly. My conclusion based on the overall message of scripture as I understand it is, that the "unpardonable sin" is rejecting Jesus Christ. What I see in the passage from Matthew is this, starting from verse 22. 1. Jesus casts out a demon and heals a man, 2. The Pharisee's say he is on Satan's team. 3. Jesus says, if I was on Satan's team I wouldn't be casting out demons. No kingdom that divides itself will stand. If I'm casting out demon's by the Spirit of God, it is because I'm on God's side. This is completely applicable, and based on my overall understanding of scripture is how I rightly divide the Word of God. All things taught within scripture are for me, and you, and every other person. They were applicable from the beginning, and they will be applicable to the end. This is also one of the many messages that I take from scripture. Where am I wrong in that? I assure anyone reading this, I make no implications regarding eternal security for anyone. I have more to add, but time has run out for me, Merry Christmas, and God bless you.

Hello Judith, There are a few things you bring up here that I would like to respond to, beginning with dispensations. This is a man-made doctrine, and does not hold the weight of scripture, so it should be examined with extreme caution. So let's examine it a bit and see. According to this doctrine, we arrived in our current place following the resurrection of Jesus, what we think of as the new covenant. When the rapture occurs, we will revert back to the old covenant. What this does in effect, is eliminate the resurrection of Jesus. Jesus lives! Can we go back to the way it was before? Can this be undone? Regardless of one's position on who will still be here, do we agree that they still need Jesus? Going back is not an option. Also, where in scripture is this denoted, this changing of ages? The only places scripture points to as an end to the age, all point to the same place. This is where Jesus places the end of the age. Matthew 13:36 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.” 37 He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. 40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear. Verse 40 is the key verse here. When does this occur? Great White Throne judgement. To further clarify, carefully examine verse 41, then 42. They will weed out everything that causes sin, and all who do evil, this is the end. Once you have eliminated the cause of sin, and all who do evil, the battle is won. Again, not just eliminating sin, but the cause of sin. When are people thrown into the blazing furnace? When will there be weeping and gnashing of teeth? There are no other age endings in scripture, this comes from Jesus Himself. We are not going back before the cross, this doctrine is not inspired of God, and is contrary to scripture. I know of an enemy that would love to "undo" what was done at the cross though. The heaven that exists now is going to be destroyed along with the earth, God is making not only a new earth, but a new heaven as well according to all scripture that deals with this time. We know it as the New Jerusalem, and this will be our home, this is the place He went to prepare. If I understand you correctly, we agree that the bride consists of all believers, both Jew and Gentile. The separation or division you suggest exists is also contrary to scripture. Matthew 12:25 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. Mark 3:25 If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. Luke 11:17 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them: “Any kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and a house divided against itself will fall. Make no mistake, any attempt to separate or draw distinctions between the two is dividing. In two of the three verses above, Jesus denotes "every kingdom" and "any kingdom", this would include His kingdom. Was Jesus not part of the promise God had with Israel in the old covenant? From His birth, to His ministry, to His death, to His resurrection, and what is still to come. God's plan has never changed, God does not change. He does not need to, He knew the end from the beginning, correct? So, when God says any of these things; "His children", "His people", "His chosen ones", "His elect".....He is always addressing the same people. He knew us before we were conceived. He knows His sheep, and His sheep know Him. Ethnicity is not a factor to God, this separation you suggest is coming from man's understanding. Isaiah 55:8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord. Scripture tells us that God looks at our hearts, our hearts are the same, the outward appearance does not matter. God has no racist tendencies, race does not matter. We all come from the same two people if you accept Genesis as literal, and later we narrow it again through Noah and his family following the great flood. All before there is even an Israel. We must be careful not to decide what scripture says, but to take what it actually says. So let's look at the 144,000 closely and find out what scripture says about them. There are two chapters we have to gather information from, chapters 7 and 14. Revelation 7 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel. In chapter 7 we see them for the first time, there is no mention of witnessing, only that they get a seal "on their foreheads", and the information to establish that this group is Jewish. The fact that their seal is on the forehead is important, why? Where is our seal as believers? This is all clarified by Paul in Romans 4, where he discusses the seal, circumcision. It is speaking to the heart of an individual. The seal is the Holy Spirit as established throughout the New Testament. So why is their seal on the forehead? Possibly because they do not yet believe? To keep them from dying in their unbelief, the Lord does two things established in scripture: First, He seals them on their foreheads. This prevents them from being harmed by His judgements, as illustrated in the Exodus account and the last plague on Egypt. The angel passed over the Jews because of the blood on the doorway, a seal meant to represent the blood of the Lamb. Second, He will not allow Satan to get at them, as illustrated in Revelation 12. They are safe, they are protected. Now He must lead them to the truth, as illustrated through the prophets Hosea and Isaiah. Revelation 14 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless. When we see them again here in chapter 14, something has changed. The Father's name is written on their foreheads, and they have clearly come to accept salvation. They are before the throne now, which means they are no longer living on the earth as we know it. And what are they doing? No mention of witnessing, they sing a song only they can know, and they follow the Lamb wherever He goes. They are not "144,000 witnesses" as they are so often referred to by many, they are simply 144,000. What they will be doing during the tribulation is not specified in the information given, the idea of them being witnesses is not scriptural, but supposition to support a doctrine, a man-made doctrine. I completely understand what you are saying here, for the majority of my life, I believed precisely the same thing you have presented. However, I believe that to correctly understand these events, we must remove this division that we have placed there, which scripture warns us about. It is not easy to look at these things without our present views clouding the picture, but it is possible if we examine scripture closely, one word at a time if necessary. My response to you is not intended to be critical of you in any way, but more of a plea to at least weigh the matter. Scripture will lead us to the truth, we cannot all be right considering the many varying viewpoints, this does not make anyone lesser. If we do not come together and discuss these things, someone is not going to be prepared, that is the bottom line. God bless.

Hello Ranger, I apologize for the delay in getting back to you, I appreciate you providing the material for me that I requested. I have read all of your posts in this thread, so first I want to be sure I understand your position as stated. Please correct me if I am wrong, I don't want to draw wrong conclusions or attribute something to your position that is inaccurate. In an earlier post, you stated that the rapture is a resurrection. I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment considering we see dead bodies rising in each scriptural passage that are typically incorporated to this discussion. I am glad to see we agree on this critical point. Now, as I understand your position we have: 1. The resurrection of the church. 2. The resurrection of the two witnesses. 3. The resurrection of believers that come out of the tribulation. 4. The resurrection of the dead following the millenium. If I understood you correctly, you see the church and the two witnesses as the first resurrection to take place. Following that you have the resurrection of believers from the tribulation, and lastly the resurrection of the dead. Is that correct?

Proverbs 11:2 When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom.

Wingnut, You have to be kidding me here, eh? I sure hope you're not doing this purposely. As I would hope you wouldn't keep misrepresenting what I actually say. This was in response to your statement, "This collapses your Entire Position IN TOTO." The underlined words are an acknowledgement that we have been discussing the link between Hosea and Revelation. What we have never discussed is "my entire position", or even yours for that matter. Now I would hope that you wouldn't keep misrepresenting my words, but you do. I would like to assume this was not purposeful, but since you deliberately left out what followed the comma, I suspect not. Also, because this is not the first time you have done this. Considering in your scenario you see a bride (the church), a husband (Jesus), and another woman (Israel), I can see why you find what you just stated as the scenario. The husband has to sneak off with the other woman (allure her and speak tenderly) so that the bride doesn't get angry, women are funny that way. Of course from my perspective this makes no sense at all. Why would our Lord have to allure her away and speak tenderly to her in eternity? If it is done, this wouldn't be necessary. So, what plausible explanation is there? Could it be that when the words "in that day" are spoken that the meaning is sometimes to a time, like the end times, and not always to a literal day? The key word here is "In". Of course you could just review chapter 65 of Isaiah which gives a much more detailed account from my previous post. You will see, there are quite a few things that take place between the two, take note of the verses. Isaiah 65:9 I will bring forth descendants from Jacob, and from Judah those who will possess my mountains; my chosen people will inherit them, and there will my servants live. 10 Sharon will become a pasture for flocks, and the Valley of Achor a resting place for herds, for my people who seek me. Note that in verse 10 it clearly states, "my people who seek me." This is another example how the offspring in Revelation cannot be the remnant spoken of by the prophets. One of the requirements to be the offspring is, holding fast their testimony in Jesus. These people are still seeking, they have not found Him. Isaiah 65:25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, and dust will be the serpent’s food. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain,” says the Lord. FYI, this takes place between the two. Isaiah 65:17 “See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind. Actually, our discussion was already over as a result of your inability to stick to the topic, and your lack of respect for others. However, I didn't want to just not answer you, so since I did, I'll try this one more time. I will just copy and paste what I posted the last time I posted it. Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; You have not refuted this even once, much less three times, please address this passage, particularly the underlined areas. The symbol you have of who makes up the bride, is incorrect. Your theory that Revelation is chronological falls apart as well, but the verse says what it says. John ties the bride to New Jerusalem symbolically right here, your argument is with scripture, not with me. A modern way to say this same thing is: Little Tommy says to little Billy, "Come here, let me show you the best present I ever got." And he showed little Billy his brand new set of Lego's. You are trying to argue that the best present Tommy ever got was Lincoln Logs. I cannot accept your scenario on the basis of scripture, or (to borrow your words to me) a "Violation of Logic." If you can reconcile the above passage from Revelation with your scenario, please do so. If you fail to address this again, the discussion is over.

I agree, it is impossible for someone to be a Christian before what makes a Christian has ever taken place. So what is it that makes one a Christian? John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. And when did Jesus first enter the scene? John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. From the beginning, life was in Him. Your assertion that this is impossible just doesn't hold up under scrutiny. We haven't even discussed my position, we have been discussing yours. If you are referring to the link between Hosea and Revelation 12, well, I guess you glossed over the scripture from Isaiah. At no point have you shown the passages from Hosea as being a historical event, so I really have no clue what you are talking about. Before you go wasting your time trying to prove this, I suggest reading Isaiah 65 (which I posted prior) where you will find the connecting dots for the time frame. I'm sorry, I must have missed the post where you explain how a person could be both protected from Satan and unprotected from Satan during the same 3 1/2 year period of time. I really would like to see this post, but I can't seem to find it anywhere. Could you post it again please? It seems to have disappeared. Unless you can do this, you have of course refuted nothing other than in your own mind. Hosea 1 The word of the Lord that came unto Hosea, the son of Beeri, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash, king of Israel. 2 The beginning of the word of the Lord by Hosea. And the Lord said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the Lord. Hosea 1:11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel. All prophets of God are speaking to His children, regardless of ethnicity or what time they walked this earth. Hosea is prophesying to you and I as we read the material, understand? At any rate, start with verse 1. Hosea lived in the northern kingdom, so that is the perspective he wrote from. This argument is really solved easily by simply answering these questions. Who did God divorce? a) the northern kingdom b) the southern kingdom c) both Who came up out of Egypt? a) the northern kingdom b) the southern kingdom c) both Who will live many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred stones, without ephod or household gods? a) the northern kingdom b) the southern kingdom c) both The additional information I included was for anyone that may read this that was unaware of it. So others could get a better idea what time this occurred and what was happening, it had nothing to do with the argument, but it is applicable to the discussion. So, what you're saying is, I am limited to chapters 1&2 while you are free to use whatever. As I recall, it was your posting of this verse that began this entire discussion (please note that it is from the same chapter I just posted from). Why don't you just show me where the discussion in Hosea was limited to the first two chapters (only limited for me of course)? I can assure you that you will not find that either, because if I had specified chapters, I would have also included chapter 3, because it is the conclusion of the first two chapters. If you wish to limit the discussion to the first three chapters, I will agree to that. Yeah, that chapter 3, where the Lord tells Hosea to take back his wife. You know, the one who according to your scenario only represents the northern kingdom. The wife that isn't part of the bride, the one who gets to be the "other" woman in your eternal picture. The fact that chapter 3 exists renders your entire argument null and void, so I can see why you would want me not to talk about it. No, I can just read. Actually this was an appeal from one christian to another. You see, when you attack my character and make wild, false, unfounded statements regarding my approach to scripture, it affects my witness, thereby affecting the body of Christ to which I belong. A house divided cannot stand, and your reply is duly noted.

Please provide the scriptural support for this.

Thank you for the encouraging words tinky, God bless you.

I appreciate your words of encouragement sister God bless you.

We'll start from the top of Hosea, chapter 1. Hosea 1:2 When the Lord began to speak through Hosea, the Lord said to him, “Go, marry a promiscuous woman and have children with her, for like an adulterous wife this land is guilty of unfaithfulness to the Lord.” God instructs Hosea to marry an unfaithful woman, why? To draw a parallel between Hosea's marriage and God's relationship with Israel. Chapter one goes on to discuss Hosea's personal life, his children, their names, and the meanings of their names. All names the Lord chose for prophetic purposes to demonstrate the illustration throughout the following chapter. Hosea 1:11 The people of Judah and the people of Israel will come together; they will appoint one leader and will come up out of the land, for great will be the day of Jezreel. Really? That is the final verse of chapter 1, it is only 11 verses long, you missed this detail in your details. Other critical details that you failed to notice. Hosea 1:4 Then the Lord said to Hosea, “Call him Jezreel, because I will soon punish the house of Jehu for the massacre at Jezreel, and I will put an end to the kingdom of Israel. 5 In that day I will break Israel’s bow in the Valley of Jezreel.” Hosea's first son, Jezreel. The name represents a historical incident from II Kings 9-10. Hosea lived to see this prophecy fulfilled, II Kings 15:8-12. For a historical perspective of the time Hosea lived, see II Kings 14:23-17:41. The name Jezreel has a double meaning, it means both to "scatter", and to "sow". This is illustrated in chapter 2:11 (to scatter), and in verse 22 (to sow). All three of these names are curses that turn to blessings. Hosea 1:6 Gomer conceived again and gave birth to a daughter. Then the Lord said to Hosea, “Call her Lo-Ruhamah (which means “not loved”), for I will no longer show love to Israel, that I should at all forgive them. Hosea's daughter, pay close attention to the meaning of her name, not loved. Hosea 1:8 After she had weaned Lo-Ruhamah, Gomer had another son. 9 Then the Lord said, “Call him Lo-Ammi (which means “not my people”), for you are not my people, and I am not your God. Hosea's second son, pay close attention to the meaning of his name, not my people. Note the increasing nature of God's displeasure denoted by their names, first comes punishment, then a loss of love, finally total divorce. Now I've already pointed you to the passages that include Jezreel, how about the other two? Hosea 2 “Say of your brothers, ‘My people,’ and of your sisters, ‘My loved one.’ Hosea 2:23 I will plant her for myself in the land; I will show my love to the one I called ‘Not my loved one.’ I will say to those called ‘Not my people,’ ‘You are my people’; and they will say, ‘You are my God.’” The chapter begins and ends around them. This entire chapter is based around Hosea's personal life, and how God related to Israel. Why does Hosea use the language he used? Simple, his calling was the northern kingdom, this is what he related to. From his perspective, adultery was the root cause of Israel's issues. At the same time, Amos was also prophesying in the northern kingdom. He concentrated mostly on law and justice, with an emphasis on the poor. Combining what these two prophets were addressing, together they address Israel's problems. Chapter 3 is also very short, 5 verses in fact, so I will just post the entire thing. Hosea 3 The Lord said to me, “Go, show your love to your wife again, though she is loved by another man and is an adulteress. Love her as the Lord loves the Israelites, though they turn to other gods and love the sacred raisin cakes.” 2 So I bought her for fifteen shekels of silver and about a homer and a lethek of barley. 3 Then I told her, “You are to live with me many days; you must not be a prostitute or be intimate with any man, and I will behave the same way toward you.” 4 For the Israelites will live many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred stones, without ephod or household gods. 5 Afterward the Israelites will return and seek the Lord their God and David their king. They will come trembling to the Lord and to his blessings in the last days. Do you still say Hosea is only addressing the northern kingdom? Contradictions with this scenario that immediately come to mind: 1. It was not just the northern kingdom that came up out of Egypt. 2. It is not just the northern kingdom that will live without the things mentioned in Hosea 3:4 above. 3. It is not just the northern kingdom that God divorced. 4. The Lord says in chapter 3, “Go, show your love to your wife again," and, "Love her as the Lord loves the Israelites," He does not say, "Love her as the Lord loves the northern kingdom." The fact that she is His wife again is clear, and you still want to say the Jews are not a part of the bride. Chapter 4 to the end gets away from the personal comparison to Hosea's life, but Hosea's message is consistent concerning adultery. Still not convinced, perhaps this passage from Hosea 2 will help. Hosea 2:19 I will betroth you to me forever; I will betroth you in righteousness and justice, in love and compassion. 20 I will betroth you in faithfulness, and you will acknowledge the Lord. What does betroth mean? Fine, if you really want to travel down this rabbit hole, please show me the scriptural support you have for this claim. By that I mean, can you show me where this prophecy in Hosea came to pass? That will be difficult to do, considering the material states multiple times comments such as, "They will come trembling to the Lord and to his blessings in the last days." (Hosea 3:5) You won't find scriptural support placing an event in history when that event is still a future event. And more from Hosea regarding your suggestion this prophecy was only for the northern kingdom. Hosea 5:5 Israel’s arrogance testifies against them; the Israelites, even Ephraim, stumble in their sin; Judah also stumbles with them. Hosea 5:10 Judah’s leaders are like those who move boundary stones. I will pour out my wrath on them like a flood of water. 11 Ephraim is oppressed, trampled in judgment, intent on pursuing idols. 12 I am like a moth to Ephraim, like rot to the people of Judah. Who is Ephraim? The northern kingdom. Who is Judah? The southern kingdom. At any rate, I think I have clearly illustrated my point using scripture as to whom Hosea is addressing. You may want to reconsider rushing through Hosea, it appears you are overlooking the important details and arriving at the wrong conclusions. The bread crumbs are established in chapter 1 for the content of the first three chapters. This passage is speaking about eternity, this is the New Jerusalem. When will the bow, sword, and battle be broken out of the earth? Not before that final battle, I assure you. How about we look to the passages you suggested from Isaiah for clarification. Thank you for sharing this, what a blessing of confirmation from the Lord. Isaiah 65:9 I will bring forth descendants from Jacob, and from Judah those who will possess my mountains; my chosen people will inherit them, and there will my servants live. 10 Sharon will become a pasture for flocks, and the Valley of Achor a resting place for herds, for my people who seek me. You see everything we have been talking about right here. The remnant comes from both the northern and southern kingdoms, His chosen people. Where are they going? We saw the Valley of Achor in Hosea's prophecy as well, or, the valley of trouble. Still question whether or not Hosea was speaking about this time? The chapter continues to progress, we're still not quite to the verse you specified yet though. Isaiah 65:17 “See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind. 18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I will create, for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight and its people a joy. 19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem and take delight in my people; the sound of weeping and of crying will be heard in it no more. Here we have our new heaven and new earth, we are still not yet to the verse you specified. No more weeping and crying right? This follows what event in Revelation? Isaiah 65:25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, and dust will be the serpent’s food. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain,” says the Lord. Considering that the earth and all that is on it are systematically destroyed by the illustration in Revelation, how did a doctrine evolve that would have us populating a destroyed earth? Do we not see the plants and animals destroyed, the water undrinkable? Did you really think that He would reconstruct this destroyed earth, only to destroy it again? The millenium is not what you imagine, the millenium is this: Matthew 24:36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Scripture points us to a very specific day, and within that day, a very specific hour. In Revelation chapter 18, it is called the Fall of Babylon, follow the clues in the chapter, look for the mentioning of this day and hour. You already know how this is possible, this verse is familiar I am certain, but pay close attention to the exact verbiage Peter uses. II Peter 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. Why does he make sure to tell us not to forget? Possibly because if we want to unlock the mystery, we have to use the right key. I will continue to assess and re-assess, as I have done all along, and as always, I eagerly await your response. I will be patient, this is a lot to digest, God bless.

"Old" being the operative word , thought I'd get that in there for you wing. Oh my dear friend, as I was typing that I knew it would draw your attention

Hello again Enoch, I am so glad to hear it is a blessing for you. Sorry for delaying you as we continue our discussion, I can be pesky. I would like to thank you as well, for jogging my old brain as to how to quote again, I have that issue when I've been away from the boards for a length of time. I want to start by saying I understand your response from earlier, and I apologize for the sarcastic comment. I do want to begin right from that discussion concerning the New Jerusalem being the bride, which is what precipitated my comment "so much for chronology." Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; You have not refuted this even once, much less three times, please address this passage, particularly the underlined areas. The symbol you have of who makes up the bride, is incorrect. Your theory that Revelation is chronological falls apart as well, but the verse says what it says. John ties the bride to New Jerusalem symbolically right here, your argument is with scripture, not with me. A modern way to say this same thing is: Little Tommy says to little Billy, "Come here, let me show you the best present I ever got." And he showed little Billy his brand new set of Lego's. You are trying to argue that the best present Tommy ever got was Lincoln Logs. I cannot accept your scenario on the basis of scripture, or (to borrow your words to me) a "Violation of Logic." If you can reconcile the above passage from Revelation with your scenario, please do so. ===================================================================================== Now let's get back to Revelation 12 and the identity of the 3 characters using the information established earlier in the discussion. Let's break this down verse by verse and establish facts. Revelation 12:13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 1. The dragon pursues the woman. Revelation 12:4 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 2. The woman escapes to the wilderness. 3. The woman will be taken care of for 3 1/2 years. 4. The woman is out of Satan's reach for the duration of the time given. Revelation 12:15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 5. Satan goes to great lengths to get to the woman. Revelation 12:16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 6. Despite Satan's extreme effort to get the woman, he cannot. Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus. 7. Because he cannot get to the woman, Satan becomes very angry. 8. Because he cannot get to the woman, Satan wages war against the rest of her offspring. 9. The woman's offspring keep God's commands. 10. The woman's offspring hold fast their testimony about Jesus. Two different groups, one that Satan cannot get at (see facts 4-8), and one that he can. (fact 8) You have three major contradictions in the scenario you paint. a) You insist on saying that the woman in this passage represents all three parts spoken of by Zechariah. b) You insist on saying that the offspring represents the "remnant" spoken of by the prophets. c) You insist on saying that the "remnant" spoken of by the prophets is part of the woman at the same time. Established facts 3-10 make up the contradiction in a, b, and c. We'll start with the contradiction of combining the woman and the offspring. Two groups, one that Satan cannot get at, one that he can. Complete opposite ends of the spectrum, so let's look at some comparable analogies. Group A Group B protected vs unprotected married vs single dead vs alive In the same 3 1/2 year span, can one be both at the same time? NO. The identity of your characters is contrary to scripture. I cannot accept this on the basis of scripture, and a "Violation of Logic." Going back now to contradiction a) the woman in Revelation being all three parts spoken of by Zechariah. (Zechariah 13:8-9) "And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. {9} And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God." Beginning with the red letters we establish 2 facts. 1. Two thirds of the nation of Israel will be "cut off and die." 2. One third of the nation of Israel will be left. I offered you the biblical illustration Paul wrote in Romans 11:17-22 of what the symbolic meaning of "cut off" is. I was puzzled by your response so perhaps I just haven't been explaining myself clearly. At any rate, let's look at it again. Romans 11:17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. You mentioned earlier that you are married, so perhaps you own a home as well. Maybe you have some shrubs or bushes that you like to keep in a certain shape. You may use a powered hedge trimmer or metallic scissors of some kind to cut off branches and keep it in shape. Now come spring, or following a series of heavy rain, you occasionally get a few branches that shoot out a good 4 inches further than everything else. You don't get out the powered hedge trimmer, you just reach down and break off these few branches with your hands. Whether you break them off or cut them off, they will die apart from the root. Zechariah wrote, "two parts therein shall be cut off and die". He is saying that two thirds of them are not His children, they are not part of the body. The third part are the remnant, the same remnant that Paul links to the remnant Isaiah spoke of. Romans 9:27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved. 28 For the Lord will carry out his sentence on earth with speed and finality.” Only the remnant will be saved, correct? As it is written. Also please take note of what verse 28 says, carried out with speed and finality. Bottom line, the two thirds is neither the woman, or her offspring. Two thirds is in big trouble. Unless you have some scriptural basis to support the claim that a group assigned to be "broken or cut off" are walking with the Lord enough to garnish either: a) His protection from Satan- while being cut off from Him................ A requirement based on the facts established of the woman in Revelation, and the facts established in the Zechariah passage concerning the "two parts". b) Are said to be keeping His commandments and holding fast to their testimony about Jesus- while being cut off from Him.............. A requirement based on the facts established of the offspring in Revelation, and the facts established in the Zechariah passage concerning the "two parts". For these reasons I cannot accept your inclusion of the "two parts" as being depicted in any character mentioned in the Revelation 12 passage. Now let's look at the Zechariah passage again: (Zechariah 13:8-9) "And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. {9} And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God." The Lord will bring the third part through the fire, and calls them "my people". He does not call the two parts "my people". He does not because they are not. The identity of the woman in Revelation 12 is the remnant, there is no other scriptural explanation. Now tell me who are the offspring? Who keeps the commandments and holds fast their testimony in Jesus? The and, as well as what follows are very important to pay attention to. This disqualifies all non-believers, regardless of ethnicity, from the beginning of the 3 1/2 years to the end as fitting the facts established regarding the offspring. So the identity of the offspring cannot be either: a) The remnant spoken of by the prophets. b) Any non-believer, regardless of ethnicity. Who does that leave? So, to answer your question: "The problem I see with the Offspring of the Jews being Jewish...". Still have a Problem? Yes. I see a great big gaping hole of a problem. ======================================================================================= If you want to understand how the story unfolds, you have to identify the characters properly. Everything that follows is subject to this. I can even pinpoint precisely why your scenario does not line up....... You use symbolism to arrive at your conclusion for the identity of the woman, and then apply that literally to the identity of the offspring. The offspring are symbolic as well, and not literally the offspring of the woman, an error that convinces you they must be Jewish, and they are not. This is why your scenario spins out of control. Only the remnant will be saved!!!! In a discussion you had earlier in this thread with someone else, the individual gave you the answer scripturally. There is one seed, there is one bride, there is one body, there is one husband.... Do you see the pattern here? Your image of eternity goes something like this, we have the bride (the church only), the husband (Jesus), and then this other group that wasn't invited to the marriage supper (Jewish people). So what does that make the Jews, the mistress? The real elephant in the room? When a detective is solving a crime, compiling a list of suspects is at the top of the list of "things to do." Eyewitness testimony comes first, also high on the list is collecting evidence. Establishing a case requires all of these things and more, so for those of us who live in relative safety; respect and be thankful for minds that work like mine, a lot of those minds provide that relative safety. No, I am not nor have I ever been in law enforcement, but it would have been a very good fit for me. If you want to solve a mystery you need to establish facts, this comes from the eyewitness testimony, the evidence collected, elimination of suspects, etc. The more facts you can establish, the stronger your case. Eyewitness testimony coming from multiple witnesses is never exactly the same, we all see things through our own lens, so you will get different details from different perspectives. There are little clues and trails to follow, you dismiss this tried and true methodology with comments like: Be careful with "Artistic Licence" and 2nd, 3rd, 4th order extrapolations of effects----- then conclusions drawn from those extrapolations. I am extremely careful when it comes to scripture sir, your repeated implications that I need to do more studying, or that I in some way lack the knowledge and understanding of the material, or the respect for it that the Word of God should be given when handled, are not conclusions drawn from fact, but by supposition on your part. I ask that you please refrain from these type statements in the future, I am not the topic, you don't know me. If there is no agreement to stick to the material, there is no need in continuing. I am referring to these type of statements: Your entire quote is erroneous on all counts. You will not convince me that this is not meant to be insulting, I am familiar with this technique you are employing here, it is called--------- I don't like what you have to say, so you're stupid. I can think of nothing more personal as far as an attack goes, it appears you know how I read and handle scripture down to techniques, and because I post a verse or two from pertinent material, you draw the wild and inaccurate conclusion that I am "pigeon-holing" one verse, or one word in said verse. You know very little about me, outside of the fact that I don't agree Revelation is chronological, and we do not agree on how the end times will unfold. It doesn't matter to me if I'm the smartest or the dumbest guy in the room, what matters is that I've arrived at the truth. If your only interest is to convince everyone you are always right about everything, I'm not convinced. If you want to convince me, address the issues I've outlined above with sound scriptural and logical possibilities. I want to give you an example of why your critique of small details in regards to the chronology issue holds no weight. Compare these two passages from scripture. Romans 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. Isaiah 10:22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness. 23 For the Lord God of hosts shall make a consumption, even determined, in the midst of all the land. According to your criteria in regards to the material I offered for comparison from Revelation, we should conclude that these two passages here are incomparable, because they do not say exactly the same thing. Look at that, Paul says "a remnant shall be saved." and Isaiah said, " a remnant of them shall return." It can't possibly be linked together, they are not exact! Wrong. We know that Paul is referencing the Isaiah passage here, so your argument for exactness is duly noted and dismissed as unsound reasoning. A little more consistency is required, when dealing with symbolism one mustn't blur the line between symbolic and literal, or in how we assess the validity of clues. Scripture itself will reveal whether or not the picture we have painted is correct by either confirming or refuting our conclusions of what are facts. ======================================================================================== Impossible you say? Mark 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible. For God? Luke 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible. Really? John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. I think not. I shall await your response to my inquiries, God bless.

Hello again Enoch, I'm sorry I haven't been able to address everything as it comes, I assure you that I am more than willing to discuss any of these things in more detail, it's just a matter of finding the time. Your comment: "So much for Chronology" Please drop the Begging the Question on Steroids (Fallacy)----- "Same Event" and look again...Please. Is this really necessary? I understand that your immediate instinct is to defend what you believe, and I also understand that each of us view this from a different perspective, that doesn't mean we can't be respectful. While you were advising me to take another look, you should have at least examined what I said, I gave you a nice hint earlier and everything. I want to put this whole chronology discussion to bed, so we'll go back to a question I asked you earlier. Once you have removed islands and mountains, can you remove them again? Revelation 6:14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. This takes place after the opening of the 6th seal. Revelation 16:20 Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. This takes place after the 7th angel pours out his bowl. They are 10 chapters apart, this is the same event. Since every mountain and island was removed in chapter 6, how are they still there to be removed in chapter 16? At what point were they put back? This in particular is what first drew my attention to what you refer to as a strawman theory, or fallacy. In my experience, where there is smoke there is fire, and I am not one to believe in coincidence. That's just how my mind works, mathematical probabilities and a good eye for details. The odds of all these similarities I've shared in the last two posts just being coincidence are astronomical. I don't disagree with what you had to say as far as not all of them are exact, but that is not inconsistent with how Revelation is written. As I stated before, some accounts of events are more detailed than others, so adding more specific information in regards to an earthquake in one place does not mean it cannot be the same earthquake in another place. As far as the effect the earthquake has on Jerusalem, could a city not be split into three parts which causes a tenth of the city to be lost? Some percentage of the city is going to be destroyed when it is split, correct? Slight differences in the details does not exclude the possibility that it is the same event. In an earlier post you made in regards to our discussion about the marriage supper there were some things I wanted to touch on. I just want to clarify my position for you. Your question and comment: How can the New Jerusalem occur in Revelation 19 before Christs Return (Second Coming)? You have: The beast and false Prophet yet to be cast into the fire, satan has yet to be chained; the first resurrection to occur, The Millennium, satan then loosed, Final Battle, satan thrown into the lake of fire, Great White Throne Judgement, First Heaven and First Earth Passed away.......BEFORE Christ's Return to the First Earth. New Jerusalem comes at the very end, the new age, or eternity if you prefer. That would be after all of these other events, I have never claimed otherwise. My argument has been and remains, that the marriage supper occurs at the very end, it is a symbolic reference to eternity. Why? Revelation 21:9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. I am well aware that one does not marry an inanimate object, but like it or not, John wrote this per God's instruction. According to John the New Jerusalem is symbolic of the bride, hence, the marriage supper in itself is symbolic of this by proxy. Considering New Jerusalem doesn't come until the end of the age, then the conclusion is that neither does the marriage supper. Since it happens at the end, it would include everyone that enters eternity, hence my argument that excluding Old Testament saints doesn't make sense to me. Your comment: You make some very good points here; However, when you say two different Groups you're partly right and partly wrong. Yes, they are distinctive: "The Remnant" and "The Woman"; however, the Remnant are still "A PART' of the Woman, Inherently. The Remnant are the ones satan is most concerned about (those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus) ....for they are the ones that will Petition The LORD to Return. The Woman (Unbelieving Jews, they aren't seeking Jesus); Ergo, aren't a Threat to HIM..... If the woman is no threat to the dragon, why is he pursuing her? Why does he try to swallow her up with a river? Why is he so angry he cannot get at her? It appears to me that the woman is the threat, she is his focus. The problem with trying to say the remnant is the woman and the offspring leads right back to where our discussion began. How can they be both protected and not protected at the same time? They can't. The problem remains in the identity of the characters, your scenario doesn't fit. It appears more likely that the woman represents the remnant Isaiah spoke of, which would mean the offspring represent someone else. The problem I see with the offspring being Jewish..... they hold fast their testimony about Jesus. Messianic Jews this would be applicable, but your position has the rapture occurring already, which means Messianic Jews would not be here anymore. You said earlier when I asked about this, that they would be Messianic Jews, meaning of course that they come to salvation after you have the rapture occurring. But unbelieving Jews do not hold fast their testimony about Jesus, because they don't believe in Jesus, so they cannot make up this group. The offspring are believers. That's all I have time for now, God bless.

Hello again Enoch, I was going to go back and finish addressing the earlier post, but maybe we should just continue from your response. My question to you: 1. We have three characters in this story, the dragon (Satan), the woman (Israel), and the woman's offspring (remnant). As I understand our discussion this was your position, is that correct? Your response: 1. You said......The dragon (Satan), the Woman (Israel), the woman's offspring (Remnant). I said no such thing, I asked for confirmation as to whether this was your position or not. My question to you: You could say the woman is therefore the remnant, they are a remnant of Israel after all, so this doesn't contradict the identity of the woman as still being Israel in a loose way, but then the question is, who are the offspring? Your response: 2. Then, You said..... The dragon (Satan), the Woman (Israel), The Remnant, then you ask who are the offspring? Again, that is not what I said. What I said was, you could say that in defense of your position, but then you have to still account for the offspring. John makes a very clear distinction between these two groups, they are not the same, regardless of how badly you want them to be. Let's break this down verse by verse and establish facts. Revelation 12:13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 1. The dragon pursues the woman. Revelation 12:4 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 2. The woman escapes to the wilderness. 3. The woman will be taken care of for 3 1/2 years. 4. The woman is out of Satan's reach for the duration of the time given. Revelation 12:15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 5. Satan goes to great lengths to get to the woman. Revelation 12:16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 6. Despite Satan's extreme effort to get the woman, he cannot. Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus. 7. Because he cannot get to the woman, Satan becomes very angry. 8. Because he cannot get to the woman, Satan wages war against the rest of her offspring. 9. The woman's offspring keep God's commands. 10. The woman's offspring hold fast their testimony about Jesus. Two different groups, one that Satan cannot get at (see facts 4-8), and one that he can. (fact 8) Your comment: Can't be "Totally" protected and be "Afflicted"....... "being spoken to tenderly" @ the same time. I think you may be taking "The Protection" during the "great tribulation" somewhat to far. Sure you can, when you consider the circumstances and events happening at the time. Their temple is going to be defiled, Jerusalem handed over to the Gentiles, they have been forced to flee to the wilderness, with Satan pursuing them. This all sounds distressing to me, not to mention the judgements going on around them. While they are physically safe, their emotional state will be all over the place. It is only reasonable that the Lord would be speaking to them tenderly when you take everything into account. You think I may be taking the protection too far? I didn't write a single word in scripture. Your argument is with scripture, not with me. Your comment: Also another name for the "great tribulation" is the "time of Jacob's Trouble". Who's Jacob? I'm not convinced that is the case, but that is another argument altogether that I'm not interested in having at this time. Perhaps sometime in the future should we ever get past some of these more minor details. That being said, Jacob is a son of Isaac, he wrestled with God, and God changed his name to Israel. This is the point when Israel enters scripture, but not as a nation, just one man. FYI I was aware of the fact that Abraham lived before there was an Israel, and I am also aware of the definition of the word Israel. Your question: Who does Christ Warn in the Olivet Discourse? Jesus is speaking privately to His disciples, so He is addressing the church in my opinion. I suppose that makes my answer all of the above, plus more. My comment: Two parts is going to be cut off and die, pretty simple. To me, this group is not found in the Revelation passage. Your response: If you can't find this in Revelation....Then as I asked previously, Please show this event in history? I did not say that I can't find this in Revelation, I said I do not see a particular group in the passage of Revelation we were discussing. There are only 3 subjects in the passage in question; the dragon, the woman, and the woman's offspring. Neither the woman or her offspring fall under the "cut off" and die criteria. This passage from Romans should help clarify that. Romans 11:17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. It is not that they will be cut off, it is the fact that they will be cut off and die, this is what Zechariah recorded. The woman is being cared for by the Lord, so they are not cut off. The woman's offspring keep the commandments and hold fast to their testimony of Jesus, don't see them being cut off either. I do see where the offspring die though, since they are the group the dragon wages war on. The dragon, well, yeah, I think he is cut off, but I don't think he is the two thirds Zechariah is talking about. Your comment: The Whole Part is the Woman in Zechariah (See response above)...the third part is the Remnant. The "through the fire" is the "great tribulation". Again, you continue to insist on combining two groups that John separates. If part of your position contradicts scripture, the error is in your position. I think the identity of the characters is where the problem is. Your comment: I have yet to do a complete study in Hosea, so I can't comment. I highly recommend it, although the fact it strikes me on a personal level could impact my opinion. Your comment: You have not addressed how The Woman can be "in their affliction" (another phrase for the "great tribulation") and be Totally Protected.....? You also have major issues with Zechariah 14 above. I touched on this above, so I'll await your response. For now i need sleep, so I'm going to have to stop here, God bless.

Hello again Enoch, I don't have a lot of time before work, so I'll address as much as I can for now and come back to the rest later. I'm going to stick with this ongoing discussion for now about Revelation 12, Hosea, and the identity of the woman and the remnant topic. I am still unclear as to who is who from your viewpoint, so let's break this down and see if we agree or if this is where the confusion is. Revelation 12: 13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus. We have three characters in this story, the dragon (Satan), the woman (Israel), and the woman's offspring (remnant). As I understand our discussion this was your position, is that correct? The dragon goes after the woman, he cannot get her for 3 1/2 years, or a time, times and half a time. The woman is out of the dragon's reach. The woman is safe. He even tries using a river to swallow her up, not gonna happen. Then he is enraged, and goes after her offspring. Conclusion, the woman is safe for 3 1/2 years, her offspring are at war. You have to settle on who is who in your scenario, the remnant can't be both groups. So let's incorporate the passage you gave from Zechariah into this. (Zechariah 13:8-9) "And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. {9} And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God." We have three characters again, the Lord, two parts, and a third part. Two parts is going to be cut off and die, pretty simple. To me, this group is not found in the Revelation passage. An argument could be made that this is the woman's offspring, but the fact that they are "cut off" indicates to me that they are unbelievers. The third part will be brought through the fire by the Lord, they will be refined, and they will be believers. Who in Revelation is going to be brought through by the Lord? The woman. Then include what Hosea says. Hosea 2:14 “Therefore I am now going to allure her; I will lead her into the wilderness and speak tenderly to her. 15 There I will give her back her vineyards, and will make the Valley of Achor a door of hope. There she will respond as in the days of her youth, as in the day she came up out of Egypt. Who came up out of Egypt? Israel. The Lord is going to allure her to the wilderness and speak tenderly to her, and she will respond. You said the woman in Revelation 12 is Israel, so that seems clear enough, we know this is Israel. Other consistencies, being led to the wilderness, and the Lord's personal attention. Scripture confirming scripture, this is good. In comparison to Zechariah, it seems pretty clear to me it isn't 'two parts' because they are cut off and die. However, it aligns perfectly with 'third part', brought through by the Lord Himself, and then responding to Him. Again we see scripture confirming itself. There is no doubt the woman is Israel in my mind, and based on what you have posted, we agree on this. You added the distinction in another post, that they are unbelieving Jews. We also agree on this, why else would the Lord need to take them aside and speak tenderly to them amidst all the chaos unless salvation was necessary. I also think that the passage from Zechariah shows that the third part is the woman, therein lays the problem with what you have proposed. In order for your position to be true, the remnant you have in mind has to be the third part from Zechariah, which is why you want to say the remnant is both protected and not protected. At any rate, I think that is where our differences begin. The bottom line, the woman is safe for 3 1/2 years, Revelation 12 is not vague on this fact. You could say the woman is therefore the remnant, they are a remnant of Israel after all, so this doesn't contradict the identity of the woman as still being Israel in a loose way, but then the question is, who are the offspring? My comment: I'll start with the most obvious question, are you saying the remnant are messianic Jews? Your response: They will be. The "great tribulation" will force them to fish or cut bait. Again... (Hosea 5:15) "¶ I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early." More accurately translated "Earnestly" Hosea is still addressing the same people he was in chapter 2, their identity as established in the passage I posted is Israel. Israel came up out of Egypt. This takes us back to the identity of the 3 characters in Revelation 12, who is the woman? Is she Israel, or is she the remnant you have in mind? This passage from the beginning of Hosea 2 may help clear up who Hosea is speaking to. Hosea 2:2 “Rebuke your mother, rebuke her, for she is not my wife, and I am not her husband. This confirms what you posted earlier, that the Lord had divorced Israel, correct? So that is more confirmation that Hosea is addressing Israel as a whole, and not just a remnant. I don't think there is any question as to what the book of Hosea is about, I'm assuming you don't disagree with the brief summary I gave earlier since you didn't object. I hope that helps you understand my position, and the problem I see with yours. I'll wait for your response, perhaps you can break down how you see these things for me. For now I'll move on to the next item. My comment: Romans 4:3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Your response: How does this Refute my Statement that the OT Saints are not apart of "The Church". Answer: it doesn't, in any way whatsoever. Revelation 19: 7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. Righteousness seems to be the key ingredient here, and in many other places in scripture. The verse says nothing about tribulation saints, Old Testament saints, New Testament saints, or any other type of saint, it just says saints. As I have continually stated my position, the marriage supper is for all God's children. I have yet to see a verse that would exclude anyone from this event. Again we see clearly here in Rev 19:7, the marriage of the Lamb is come. Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; And we see the bride again here. The passage leaves little doubt that John is saying that New Jerusalem is the bride, in verse 11 he says "her light". Same event, two chapters apart, so much for chronology. Revelation 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. 18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great. Now let's analyze just this one bowl, and in just this one bowl I will show you why Revelation is not chronologically written. This passage is the seventh bowl judgement, let's compare it to the seventh trumpet which occurs in chapter 11, five chapters earlier. Revelation 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. In Revelation 16:18-19 we see the same great earthquake, we see the same earthquake split the city of Jerusalem. And then of course, there is the conclusion of verse 19, the fall of Babylon. That occurs in chapter 18, a detailed account of the fall of Babylon, it doesn't happen twice. We see the great hail in Rev. 11:19 and we also see it in Rev. 16:21. Same events, multiple places in Revelation, not a chronological story, as visions don't tend to be. Now compare this to the seventh seal. Revelation 8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. Looks a lot like Rev. 16:18 to me, eight chapters earlier. That's all I have time for now, hope that clears up why Revelation is not chronological. I look forward to your response, God bless.

Hello Enoch, Ok, so now that we're clear on the remnant you're referring to, I have a better understanding of your position. First, I think we should discuss the first hurdle I cannot get over. Revelation 12:14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. My comment: The woman (Israel) is not in harm's way, so that should rule out the Jews. Your response: Yes, she is. See Above. Note the underlined and bolded section of the verse, what you claim is in opposition to scripture. The reason the dragon pursues the remnant is because the woman is beyond reach, or not in harm's way. The time that we are told the woman is out of reach, 3 1/2 years, this is a glaring contradiction to your position. According to this, the dragon cannot get to Israel for the entire 3 1/2 year period you have assigned as the great tribulation. This leads us right back to my original question, how can you have the same group protected and not protected at the same time? Second, I am confused again now as to who you see as the remnant based on the following comment and response. My comment: The Jews don't have the testimony of Jesus Christ, so that should rule out the Jews. Your response: The remnant do. I'll start with the most obvious question, are you saying the remnant are messianic Jews? One must be saved to have the testimony of Jesus Christ, so I have to assume that is what you are saying. So the next logical question is this, if they are already saved, wouldn't they have been raptured with everyone else? I don't want to jump to any conclusions so I'll await clarification before proceeding further. Third, we're getting back to the relationship between the Lord and Israel. Since you didn't address it directly, I am assuming you don't disagree that husband is the correct translation for the Hosea passage previously discussed. I did notice that we are in agreement that all believers, whether Jew or Gentile, make up the body of Christ. Now it's just a matter of understanding the exclusion you have placed on some. Your comment: OT Saints are not apart of "The Church" they are under a Different Covenant. You can't have this... Paul covers this subject matter thoroughly in Romans, and your claims are in opposition to what was written, here are a few highlights. Romans 4:3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Romans 4:6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7 “Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.” Romans 4:13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. Romans 4:22 This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. Paul also goes on to discuss the 'seal' of righteousness that Abraham had by faith. The seal is the Holy Spirit, which can only be obtained by accepting salvation, Paul also clarifies this in the book of Romans. It baffles me that anyone would attempt to exclude men such as Abraham or David or the prophets, or any Old Testament saint from the rewards God promised His children. What you can't have is a God who breaks promises and shows favoritism. Acts 10:34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism. Galations 2:6 As for those who were held in high esteem—whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not show favoritism—they added nothing to my message. Romans 2: 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism. It is important to note in the above passage from Romans 2 that Paul gives an order to things, the Jew comes first in both cases, whether evil or good. Can you explain how your theory reverses this order and has the Gentile who does good receiving glory, honor, and peace before the Jew? This is another major contradiction with any theory that places the resurrection prior to where John places the first resurrection in Rev. 20. Romans 2 is not the only place the order is established either, Paul gives the order multiple times. Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. I Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. So to accept your position, I would have to believe that the order Paul gave is incorrect, meaning God gave me bad information. Unless of course you have some scripture that explains the contradiction. Then I would still have to swallow that God lied, and does indeed intend to show favoritism to the church. I just want to touch briefly on this statement you made. Your comment: I'm not "excluding" them".... just rightly dividing: I think we all are trying to rightly divide when it comes to scripture, but to do so we must incorporate all of scripture into our positions. I'll have to await your response to the above contradictions before proceeding, I don't want to draw the wrong conclusions. Now let's jump back to this topic again. Your comment: Revelation 21:1-5, the passage you provided, speaks nothing of the "Marriage Supper". Revelation 21:2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. Revelation 21:9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. A bride prepared for her husband, I'm not sure how you have a wedding supper before the bride is ready. However, these passages leave no doubt as to the identity of the bride, or the timing of the event, the very end. Clearly a bride is necessary for a marriage supper, these passages speak plainly. Your comment: You have no support for any of this, And: "one of those short stories" <--------What is this? As I've shown, this does not align with anything in Rev 21. It appears that you read the book of Revelation as though it were written chronologically. I do not. It is a book about one subject, the end times, divided into sections. Some deal with multiple events, some deal with specific events, some deal with events in more detail. Rev. 18-19:10 is one of those sections, it addresses the fall of Babylon up to the end of the age. There are many proofs for this, one would be the topic we are discussing, the marriage supper. It is spoken of in chapter 19, and it is also spoken of in chapter 21. Other examples, how about the mountains falling down or the islands being removed? Once an island has been removed from the face of the earth, can you remove it again? Many of these events overlap and intersect each other, they are happening simultaneously. I have to go to work now, so I will have to pick up from here later. I look forward to your response, God bless.

Enoch, my apologies for the misunderstanding on your position, I must have misread something. Before I get going I just want to say, nothing in my post is meant to demean or insult you or your beliefs in any way. Should something strike you in such a fashion, I assure you that is not my intent. I am continually searching for the truth, nothing more, and I don't believe I have all the answers, in fact, I know I do not. I do believe that scripture holds all the answers though. I guess the next question for me to understand your thinking is, who do you see as the "remnant?" I know you believe they are Jews, but remnant of....? I ask because I don't see anywhere in Hosea where he specifies this is only for a remnant. It seems to be addressing the Jews as a whole. Then there is the verse you posted earlier from Revelation 12, which you referred to as a slam dunk. Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Your conclusion was that the woman was Israel, and the remnant of her seed are select Jews within that group. Now the verse in Revelation indicates that this is the group the dragon makes war with, because the woman cannot be touched for 42 months. You just now stated in your response to me that the remnant is the group that is protected. So basically my question still stands, how can you have the same group protected and not protected? Then there is the issue with whether this remnant qualifies with what we know of the Jews. We know several things about the remnant, they keep the commandments of God, and they have the testimony of Jesus Christ. We also know that they are in harm's way. The woman (Israel) is not in harm's way, so that should rule out the Jews. The Jews don't have the testimony of Jesus Christ, so that should rule out the Jews. Jew or gentile keep the commandments of God when taking all of scripture into consideration, as was adequately displayed in a previous post. A quick summary of Hosea should make this clearer. Chapter 1 tells you about Hosea's life, and specifically about how his adulterous wife torments him with her infidelities and the fact that he always takes her back. Basically, Hosea's relationship is contrasted to the Lord's relationship with Israel. This is what the prophecy is all about, reconciliation and forgiveness. As far as the translation issue, I understand some people only like certain translations, but I try to keep it reader friendly. I'm not sure what your argument is, your posted information and the subject of the text make it clear what the proper word is to insert. The translation I posted is an accurate translation of that verse. Let's look at it again. Hosea 2:16 And it shall be at that day, saith the Lord, that thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali. The word in question is Ishi, which you provided a list of possibilities for, so let's fill in the blank. "that thou shalt call me _____; 1) man 1a) man, male (in contrast to woman, female) 1b) husband 1c) human being, person (in contrast to God) 1d) servant 1e) mankind 1f) champion 1g) great man 2) whosoever 3) each (adjective) I don't see the Jews calling their Messiah; man, human being, servant, mankind, great man, whosoever, or each, or any of the other possibilities listed besides husband. Given the entire subject matter and purpose of the book of Hosea is to draw this parallel between Hosea's love for his adulterous wife and the Lord's love for Israel, husband is the correct translation and understanding of the verse. You asked who they are? Israel. That is what Hosea is all about. You asked who they call husband? The Lord, as indicated in the verse. You asked if I am saying the Jews are the bride? No, I am saying anyone who accepts Jesus Christ as their savior is part of the body of Christ, and will partake in the wedding supper, regardless of what time they lived and died, ethnicity, or any other reasoning for dividing people into groups outside of believers and non-believers. I'm not sure how you see II Cor. 11:2 or Eph. 5:31-32 as major problems. How many verses are there in scripture where the Lord addresses Israel with a version of "I am a jealous God." At any rate, I don't see anything in either passage which would exclude the Jews. I don't want to make assumptions about why you find those verses do not include them, so I will just post some of the scripture that supports my position. Romans 3:22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, And why would there be? We were grafted in. Paul was a Jew, was he not part of the church? Why would he or any of the other New Testament writers differentiate between the two when referring to the church? Paul did the opposite as shown above, there is no difference. Concerning the passage you posted from Rev. 19:7-9, I don't disagree that this is the wedding supper, it says that it is. As does the passage I posted from Rev. 21, which places the wedding supper at the very end. I guess I'm not seeing the evidence to support your claims that this occurs before Jesus returns, nothing in the passage gives any indication of timing. Perhaps we see the book of Revelation differently in how we read it. I see Revelation as a compilation of short stories, all related to the same story, told from different viewpoints, with more specific accounts of certain events. Revelation 18 through the beginning of 19 are written in a very unique style which I see as one of those short stories, which is an account of the last day, the specific day and hour spoken of throughout end time prophecies. This thinking is supported by the scripture, which repeatedly speaks of this day and hour. The placement of the wedding supper at this time aligns with where Rev. 21 tells us the bride is prepared. I jumped over this section earlier, but wanted to address it now, this is what you posted in your response. These are the Tribulation Saints..... (Revelation 7:9) "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;" They come to know the LORD AFTER the great tribulation begins. Can't be "The Church", John didn't recognize them (and a whole slew of other reasons). Can't be the 144,000 Jews, they were just sealed. Can't be the Jewish Remnant...they don't get saved until Christ's Return in Rev 19. Again, I see nothing there to support your statement that it can't be the church. Why would John recognize people who weren't born until thousands of years after his death? Why couldn't it be the 144,000? They will come out of the great tribulation right? And as you stated, the great tribulation is 3 1/2 years, so, why not? What difference does it make when they were sealed? The timing that an individual comes to belief in Jesus Christ will have no impact on their inheritance. Why not the Jewish remnant? The only requirement is that they go through the great tribulation (3.5 years you said), and this takes place after that period of time. Considering that the end of the 3 1/2 year period of time is when this occurs, I don't understand how this can be viewed in any other manner than all inclusive. Also, for the record, I don't accept the term tribulation saints as valid, considering there is no such distinction found anywhere in scripture. There are saints, and there are all those in big trouble. Scripture is consistent on the fact that saints are believers, period. Last but not least, Yes, I am saying that the place Jesus went to prepare for us is New Jerusalem. And yes, it is at the very end of the age. The reason I am saying it is simple, that is what the verse indicates to me. Rev. 21:2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. I believe the wedding supper itself is a symbol, and what it symbolizes is the finish line, or, our inheritance. Is there a more joyous, festive event than a wedding ceremony and reception? Anyway, this is why I disagree with any claims that would exclude any group from this event, because I know for certain there is no scripture to support such a claim. By the way, I love the bit on Bozrah/Petra from your earlier post, with the map and distance. Although we don't agree on all the details, I enjoy picking up interesting tidbits along the way, God bless.

If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the Lord your God is testing you to find out if you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Deuteronomy 13:1-3 He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time. Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand. Daniel 12:9-10 ========================================================================== The Purpose of the "Great Tribulation" is..... (Hosea 5:15) "I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early." Who? "I"....Jesus. "will go and return to my place". To return to HIS place, HE had to of left it in the first place. First Advent/Ascension. "till they": Who are "They"?....The Jews. "acknowledge their offence": what was the Jews Offence? Rejected the Messiah. "in their affliction": "Their"....The Jews. "Affliction".....Time of affliction/Time of Jacob's Trouble/the "Great Tribulation". "they will seek me early": They...The Jews. "Early" is better translated "Earnestly". They Jewish Remnant will seek HIM Earnestly....@ Bozrah/Petra. The purpose of the "Great Tribulation" is to push the Jews to The Wall and for them to Corporately Petition HIM to return....and that they will!! Has nothing whatsoever to do with HIS Bride...."The Church". They already know HE is......THE KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Think about it. This should have all been over with Christ's Sacrifice.... should have ended it; satan had no cards left to play. But he knows Scripture....satan's only Card left to play is killing the Jewish Remnant before they can Petition HIM to return. That's his mission! It will be foiled quite Dramatically and Abruptly. SEE IT ? What I see is something differently than you. I'm compelled to respond to your post because it was refreshing to see someone actually acknowledge Hosea's prophecy with a pre-trib perspective. That is what I wish to discuss, and I apologize to Oman for sidetracking this somewhat, although I will at least do so with scripture, and it is still very relevant to the overall discussion. Hosea 2: 14 “Therefore I am now going to allure her; I will lead her into the wilderness and speak tenderly to her. 15 There I will give her back her vineyards, and will make the Valley of Achor a door of hope. There she will respond as in the days of her youth, as in the day she came up out of Egypt. 16 “In that day,” declares the Lord, “you will call me ‘my husband’; you will no longer call me ‘my master.’ I'm curious given some of the information found here, (along with Revelation 12, where we are told that the woman would be taken out of the serpent's reach for a period of 3 1/2 years) how does one arrive at the conclusion that a group of people can be protected and not protected at the same time? It appears to me that the Jews will leave and flee to the wilderness, per the first instruction Jesus gives them regarding what to do when they see the abomination of desolation take place. Matthew 24:15-18. The question to be asked is, who is being beheaded for their belief in Jesus Christ and their refusal to take the mark of the beast while the Jews are being kept from the serpent's reach and spoken tenderly to by Jesus? We are talking about a 42 month period of time, which coincides with the 42 months during which Jerusalem will be handed over to the gentiles (Rev. 11:2) and the 42 months that the beast is given authority. (Rev. 13:5). It is also notable that in Hosea 2:16 they are told they will call Him 'husband', not master. This would include the Jews in the wedding supper, which would fit with when scripture places the event. Rev. 21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” The place He went to prepare for us, which takes place after the great white throne judgement as clarified by the final verse posted, no more tears, end of the age.

God bless you brother.

The Pistons don't play in the city of Detroit, their current home is in Auburn Hills, an affluent suburb to the north. Before they played in Auburn Hills, they made their home in Pontiac, at the Silverdome, the former home of the Detroit Lions, who also only recently returned to play in the city.