wingnut-

1 minute ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Could you elaborate on that? 

I could, and my answer to the OP is the same as yours, both are true, at the same time, making either translation accurate.

On 7/29/2020 at 3:43 PM, Josheb said:

A simply question might help some understand the answer to the inquiry this opening post asks: Will Enoch, Abraham, Joshua, Isaiah, Daniel and/or Hosea be standing with you and I and Ronald, vic and JohnD, etc.?

Yes.

58 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

Regarding your question : At what point does the Lord cease being omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent? Please see below explanation from Bro. The Light.

I think considering you don't answer the questions I ask you, then this is no longer a conversation or discussion with any purpose.  As far as receiving the explanation from the light, his/her response shows the same lack of application in regards to God's omnipresence as yours did.  So sadly it is no answer at all, or not a correct one, but I'll leave you to it, good luck.

18 minutes ago, LadyKay said:

It all seems so pointless. No one here wants to look at their selves and consider for a moment that maybe they are wrong about something.  Everyone believes they have all the right answers and no amount of facts, history, or reasonable conversation will change anyone's mind on anything.   So why do I bother going through the trouble of searching facts and data to show to someone who just posted nonsense when in the end. They just carry on with their same nonsense? And all I did was waste my time. 

Because as a child of God you are called to carry out the great commission.  Don't look for or expect immediate results, plant a seed, or maybe you are the one watering it, but whatever you do, don't lose hope and understand that it is not your job to convince anyone of anything, leave that to the Holy Spirit.

Galatians 6:9  And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.

13 minutes ago, JAG** said:

Agreed.

I apologize for the way I worded what you quoted. I should not 

have written it that way. I should have written it in such a way

as to positively include all your concerns and your legitimate

objections. so that it would have not been possible for anyone

to draw the conclusions you drew --- which was my fault for 

the way I wrote it. Sorry.

JAG

It is all good brother, honestly since I am familiar with Dr. Gentry and his writings I honestly believed those comments would have come from him.  Regardless, no apology is necessary, I don't believe there was any malice intended on your part or anyone else's.

God bless

On 7/4/2020 at 12:06 PM, JAG** said:

So the question is raised:

What does the future hold for the Christian Church and the Human Race
here on planet Earth? The answer is the Human Race has a magnificent
optimistic bright cheerful future.

When you say human race, I suppose it is important to establish what you mean by that.  It would appear that you are referring to people as they are now, in current form, as we are born, grow, and eventually age, up to the point where we return to the dust from where we came.  So I guess my question would be rather simple, since the postmillennial position seems to place us after His return, and asserts that the kingdom of God has already become the kingdom of the world, how do you reconcile that with the following.

I Corinthians 15:

50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “O death, where is your victory?
    O death, where is your sting?”

On 7/4/2020 at 12:06 PM, JAG** said:

It is sad indeed that Amillennialism, Premillennialism, and
Dispensationalism repudiates the gospel victory theme of
the Bible in their modern eschatological speculations and
replaces this victory theme with a defeatist scheme of the
future of the Christian Church and Human race. This
paralyzes Christian cultural efforts and eliminates the
practical significance from the Christian worldview, and
gives Christians a sinful comfort in lethargy because all
this Defeatism and Doom and Gloom tends to justify
social and cultural irresponsibility. "Why polish brass
on a sinking ship", ask many misinformed Christians.

The attitude attributed above to those who do not prescribe to post-millennialism is patently absurd.  In my entire lifetime I have never heard a Christian say anything remotely close to that or seen it reflected in their walk.  Instead, what this is, is something similar that I've seen regarding different positions, where they cast any other position into the worst light possible to attempt to discredit them.  "Why polish brass on a sinking ship" would be about as extreme a position as one could take, and as I've stated already, I have not once in my lifetime ever heard any Christian utter this or anything remotely close to it.

Suggesting anyone that does not agree with post-millennialism is living a defeated life is also another unfounded accusation.  I certainly don't live my life as defeated, I am a child of the Most High, redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, and I walk in victory.  Not mine, but His.

The fact of the matter is simple, people of different eschatological views all see us arriving at the exact same place at the end, we just have different understandings of how we get there.

On 5/14/2020 at 6:10 AM, Equippers said:

based on what i can see, the anti Trump sentiment is at time high and only intensifies as time goes by.

i think this hatred for trump will be a great motivators for voters turnouts at this year's election.

there is NO WAY Trump will be re elected. 

i am willing to bet my entire life savings on it.

 

I wouldn't believe that, this is the kind of disinformation the media puts out to discourage conservatives to bother with voting.  They tried the same thing last election, don't you recall that according to them Hillary Clinton had a 12 point lead in the polls and Trump had no chance?

The difference between Liberals and Conservatives is very big in respect to behavior, one thing you should know about Conservatives, they don't speak up, they mind their own business and just go vote.  Truth be told this is a large part of the problem and why we find ourselves in the position we are, it is probably time for people to stand up.

8 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Seems so.  Take care my friend and stay awake!

You too brother, God bless.

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

The problem I see with that is that the opening of the seals takes place after the letters to the seven churches in Asia Minor. 

• After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.”  Revelation 4:1

I think we may be reading this in very different ways.  If I'm understanding you correctly, you are applying what must take place after these things to something other than the immediate text that follows it.  When I look at chapter 4, and that phrase from the very first verse I apply it to the events described in that body.  I see nothing within that chapter to indicate this is pointing to a future event and could not be a revealing of what took place in heaven prior to His first advent.  Therefore, the first seal would still be a future event from this event, and yet both still be from the past.

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

How could have the gospel gotten to Asia Minor before the new covenant began?  John was told to write three distinct and specific things:

• Therefore write [1] the things which you have seen, and [2] the things which are, and [3] the things which will take place after these things.  Revelation 1:19

Those three things correspond to:

• [1] - the vision of Jesus
• [2] - the seven letters to the seven churches
• [3] - the seven seals

This is another instance where we are reading this from two different perspectives.

Revelation 1:19 Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this.

Where you place your number one, I just see the instruction to record what is seen, which includes two things, things that are (from the past), and things that are to come (future).  The Revelation contains both the past and the future, to the people living at that time that the letter was to be delivered, the 7 churches.  As I understand it, John sent a single letter that was delivered to the first church as listed, and then circulated to the others in the order he names them, one at a time.  The letter included the entirety of the Revelation, which contains a revealing of both past and future events.

Now some of the things that were yet future to them, may now be in the category of things that are for us, with other things yet future.  I just want to illustrate with an example that precedes this from chapter 1, and see if you can see what I see.

Revelation 1:9 I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

2 minutes ago, JAG** said:

Thanks for your comments.

Just a brief statement.

There are no Bible verses that connect John's antichrist with:

■ 2 Thess. 2

■ Daniel 7

■ Revelation

■ Or any other parts of the Bible.

There is not one {1} Bible verse anywhere that makes that connection --  its all based

100% on pure personal  interpretative speculation. 

Best.

JAG

Yes, and I agree with you on that, as I said.

I don't disagree with your premise, there is no specific statement that the man of lawlessness spoken of by Paul has anything to do with the beast of Revelation.  The connection that most draw from it comes from that passage, in that some to this day defy the very rules of the written word and change the order from what is written.  Paul says that the falling away and the man of lawlessness precede the Lord's coming and our gathering to Him.  He does not specify any length of time as to when those two things occur, or how close in proximity they are to each other.

As far as anti-christs, I would have to disagree with the conclusion that they were limited to the 1st century.  I think that trend has continued throughout history and continues to this day based on John's specific details regarding what makes someone an "anti-christ".  In more modern times, you should consider someone like Anton Lavey, founder of the Church of Satan, as someone who meets those qualifications.  The same would be true of anyone that opposes the Lord.  Considering such people do exist, and continue to exist, this also plays a part in Christian's perception of the beast as anti-christ, as the information given in Revelation clearly meets the qualifications set by John.

5 hours ago, Last Daze said:

It may not be a matter of good vs. evil.  From what I've read, a white horse symbolized victory.  The horse rider is also given a victor's crown so that fits.

 Hey brother, good to talk with you as always.

I understand what you are saying, but when we take scripture as a whole there is not one single instance where the color white is used to depict or symbolize anything other than holiness.   Then there is the issue of the white rider appearing in two places of the same book and not being consistent with the identity.  As well as victory and the victor's crown would fit more with Jesus than the enemy wouldn't you say?

5 hours ago, Last Daze said:

As was pointed out earlier, Jeremiah 9:3 states:

• They bend their tongue like their bow; lies and not truth prevail in the land.

I agree, and I acknowledge the relevance of that scripture and the possibility it is applicable to the scenario.  In conjunction with your offering from Ephesians credibility is established in that regards.  At the same time, I can also offer scriptures that display God, or an instrument of God (such as Cyrus) depicted with a bow battling against God's enemies, which would support what I see in regards to this.

Genesis 49:22 “Joseph is a fruitful bough,
    a fruitful bough by a spring;
    his branches run over the wall.
23 The archers bitterly attacked him,
    shot at him, and harassed him severely,
24 yet his bow remained unmoved;
    his arms were made agile
by the hands of the Mighty One of Jacob
    (from there is the Shepherd, the Stone of Israel),

II Samuel 22:14 The Lord thundered from heaven,
    and the Most High uttered his voice.
15 And he sent out arrows and scattered them;
    lightning, and routed them.

These are just two examples, there are a lot more I can produce as well.  In regards to the idea that has been presented by others regarding a bent bow, consider that this in no way implies definitively that a bent bow represents lies or dishonest dealings according to this scripture from the same chapter as II Samuel above.

II Samuel 22:35 He trains my hands for war,
    so that my arms can bend a bow of bronze.

5 hours ago, Last Daze said:

That is what I see taking place when the first seal is opened.  The chronology of the last days in summary is stated by Jesus in Matthew 24:14:

• This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

I can't say for certain where this falls as far as chronology when factoring in Luke's account and the timeline within it.  Mainly because Luke is the one account that does not include this specific information.  I think though that we agree it is related to the fullness of the Gentiles and that we both see this as yet future.

What I see taking place when the first seal is opened is the genesis of the New Covenant, which is laid out in its entirety within Revelation, and that began with His first advent.  We see this also included in chapter 12 where the birth, attempts by Herod to kill Him as a child, and the establishment of who the woman represents included within the Revelation, which indicates that historical information is directly related to the Revelation.

5 hours ago, Last Daze said:

The end is brought to pass through the opening of the seven seals.  When the first seal is opened, the rider is allowed to be victorious in his spreading of lies, the arrows of the enemy according to Ephesians 6:16.  Allowing this rider to spread lies after the preaching of the gospel serves the purpose of revealing everyone's faith.  It will challenge and strengthen the faith of those who believe in God, and it will further delude those who have preferred the pleasures of sin and rejected the gospel.  It begins the segregation process.

I understand, and I am not posting with the intent of convincing anyone of anything, that's God's job if there is an error that needs correcting.  The main reason I decided to post in the first place is because the OP and some who responded, have decided that mockery by method of ignoring God's attributes and even worse, recognizing those attributes as something the enemy possesses, were somehow a solid foundation for their belief.

What I have offered is in my opinion a much more sound and harmonious application of scripture as a whole, and certainly worth considering for anyone that is interested in knowing for certain that what they believe to be true, is actually true.  I know you are a reasonable man, and will consider what a brother offers and decide based on the evidence and personal conviction, others are convinced they know everything and will not give it due consideration.  All I am saying, is that despite the position being called a blunder (not by you), there is merit to it, and I believe more merit than what has been presented to the contrary.

5 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Thats true Jesus didnt come to bring peace 2000 years ago.

But this fake Messiah will,  as i told u be4 in Daniel 8:25 ...and by peace he shall destroy many.

Antichrist shall come and win peace for the world because its the devil itself behind all the deliberately made crisis n wars, make crisis n appear as hero .

Brother, I understand that is the conclusion you have arrived at, but if your conclusion is reached on faulty premises such as the devil having attributes only God has then you have an error in there somewhere.  The dragon and the beast are two separate and distinct entities that not only interact with each other, but are also destroyed at different times roughly 1000 years apart.  I've shown you the scripture that proves this, at some point you have to reconcile the truth of it with your beliefs.

5 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

2 Samuel 1:18 speaks about the Lament of the Bow when the enemy won. This is about antichrist with the bow /peace symbol who wins the world n rule which will be a Lament for the world.

No it doesn't, I showed you the scripture that makes it clear David is lamenting the death of Saul and his son Jonathan.  Verses do not stand alone, they must be applied in context.

19 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

True, the rider of the white horse in the first seal were launched to the EARTH to conquer the world n give a short term of peace

Not exactly true, the passage says nothing about peace, you are assuming that from the bow and have yet to establish it.  What it actually says is the opposite, the rider doesn't just come out conquering, he does conquer.

Revelation 6  Now I watched when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse! And its rider had a bow, and a crown was given to him, and he came out conquering, and to conquer.

Sounds more like what Jesus accomplished to me, remember during His first advent He declared the following.

Matthew 10:34  “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword."

25 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

While Jesus white horse is seen in heaven at Rev.19.

Again that is the point to a question I have asked several times now and you still have not addressed.  Do symbols change in scripture?

26 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

Both will meet at Armageddon battle to decide who will rule the world.

But it doesn't say anything about the beast being on a white horse does it?

You kinda just dumped what we were discussing about how you can attribute something regarding the devil to a different entity, namely the beast.  This started with you asserting Jesus could not be in two places at the same time, and then suggesting the devil can be.  I think since you have that backwards, you may want to rethink a few things.

20 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

2 Samuel 1:18 speaks about the Lament of the Bow when enemy won.

Not seeing a correlation here in regards to referencing peace.  David is lamenting over the death of Saul and Jonathan, and interestingly enough, this passage actually supports what I have stated, read it with a little more context.

II Samuel 1:14 David said to him, “How is it you were not afraid to put out your hand to destroy the Lord's anointed?” 15 Then David called one of the young men and said, “Go, execute him.” And he struck him down so that he died. 16 And David said to him, “Your blood be on your head, for your own mouth has testified against you, saying, ‘I have killed the Lord's anointed.’”

Considering Jesus was the Anointed one, wouldn't you say this is more of a "type" or representation as to what was accomplished on the cross?

The problem you still have not addressed is the fact that this rider was given a crown, who has the authority to give it to him, and doesn't scripture teach us that Jesus was given all authority and crowned?

9 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

It is thrown into the lake of fire after the Millennium is over.

 

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

The beast and false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire here, following the battle of Armageddon.

Revelation 20: 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Satan is thrown into the lake of fire after the thousand years, and as the passage clearly shows, the beast and false prophet were already there.  "Were" is past tense.

7 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

Jeremiah 9:3 they make ready their tongue like a bow to shoot lies.

Thanks, where is your second witness?  Everything must be established by two or more witnesses.

Just now, R. Hartono said:

AC # satan but one.

God manifest in Christ.

Devil manifest in antichrist

 

How can he be in the lake of fire and bound for 1000 years at the same time, then later thrown into the lake of fire again?  Satan is not omnipotent, he cannot be in two places at the same time.

Just now, R. Hartono said:

Its a disguise.

Dan 8:25... and by peace he shall destroy many.

 

2 cor 11:14 and no wonder the devil disguise himself as angel of light

Are you claiming the anti-christ is satan?  If so, please explain the following passage.

Revelation 20: 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

16 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

Bow is the symbol of conquering with peace pacts.

Scripture please?

9 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

Don't be deceived by the white appearance of antichrist

Thanks for your concern, I won't be.

9 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

God doesnt cease being omnipresent

Then why would you ask that question?

10 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:

if Jesus ride the white horse John wud recognize Him

That's my point, John does identify Him as the rider on the white horse.  Do you have any examples from scripture where a symbol changes from one thing to another?  Do you have any examples from scripture where the color "white" is identified with the wicked or evil?

On 6/20/2020 at 11:44 PM, R. Hartono said:

Its totally a blunder, many christians claim that the 1st seal of white horse rider is Jesus Christ.

I am curious, how many times in scripture is the color "white" associated with evil?

On 6/20/2020 at 11:44 PM, R. Hartono said:

Because Jesus was standing there holding the scroll, how can he then be transformed as the 1st Seal's white horse rider .

At what point does the Lord cease being omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent?

On 6/20/2020 at 11:44 PM, R. Hartono said:

As Jesus has nothing more to conquest with His victory over death with His Resurrection,

Could it be, is it possible, that His first advent is precisely what is transpiring with that first seal?  Have you ever asked yourself, who is giving this rider a crown to begin with?  Is there anywhere in scripture that God gives a crown to an enemy of His? 

Another thought to consider here, how often does a symbol change in scripture?  Since Jesus is identified as the rider on the white horse later, wouldn't that be a little more consistent?  I don't imagine you read the Lamb of God and decide it suddenly represents someone other than Jesus, so I can't imagine why this symbol should be regarded any differently.

22 hours ago, not an echo said:

I must say, as I have been reading through your replies, you have done gone and made me cringe again and again.  If it was anyone but you wingnut-, I would think that he or she was just being closed-minded to my thoughts.

I'm not sure if that is good or bad, it doesn't sound like a positive, but I know when I've challenged my own thoughts in the past it made me cringe a bit too at times.  If it's bad, I apologize for that, I know I am blunt or direct so it does come off to some as aggressive.  I guess I just prefer to get to the point is all.  As far as the closed minded, that isn't the case, the problem to this point is you are not giving me any evidence that supports your claims in scripture.

22 hours ago, not an echo said:

I'm totally with you on wondering "exactly how would a star that falls out of the sky put itself back?"  Really, I've only ever thought of what Jesus is talking about (Matt. 24:29) being like what John described (Rev. 6:13).  I'm thinking of like what you could expect to see if you stepped outside to observe a major meteor shower---only of a much greater magnitude.

I have considered some of the possibilities in the past, in regards to these things being the result of natural phenomenon.  The problem that you eventually run into is, when you consider a solar eclipse or a lunar eclipse, in both instances they require the participation of the other object in question.  In the scenario presented at the 6th seal both celestial objects are affected at the same time, that has never occurred before.  In light of that I have concluded this can only be accomplished by a divine act, and as a result to me the same will apply to the stars.  The issue with stars is even broader, because we have no idea what actual distance they are from us, so if you consider most of them are considered to be such a great distance, where are they falling to?  Certainly not to earth.  I envision something along the lines of what some of the OT prophecies speak to, God will just move His hand and "wipe" them away.

22 hours ago, not an echo said:

And concerning the sun going dark, I have certainly never thought in terms of this continuing for seven years!

I didn't imagine you did, which was why I asked the question.  But, I still think that presents problems that you have to account for.  Keep in mind what we do know, the issue of total darkness and this requirement for the sign of His coming.  Also, consider what I said above, these celestial conditions are unique, and consider all of that in light of Zechariah's prophecy that I touched on in a previous post.

Zechariah 14:6 On that day there shall be no light, cold, or frost. 7 And there shall be a unique day, which is known to the Lord, neither day nor night, but at evening time there shall be light.

I'm sure you agree with me that Zechariah is speaking about the day of the Lord, in which He has come.  Then, you have to ask yourself, can a day of darkness be unique if the same conditions occurred seven years prior?  Neither day or night, no sun or moon to make it either, and then see if what occurs at the 6th seal can be accounted for in any other event that follows.

I am not sure there is scripture to say definitively that they sang in church, but considering the early church was mostly made up of Messianic Jews, and that the Israelites had been singing songs of worship to God going all the way back to the OT days I believe that they did.

The book of Psalms, those are all songs, sung to the Lord.

In regards to the concept of work and how it is a means to avoiding temptation, I wanted to share a few things that I have observed or experienced in this manner.  It may or may not address what Abrielle had in mind, so I hope I'm not stealing his thunder.

II Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us. 7 For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us, because we were not idle when we were with you, 8 nor did we eat anyone's bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you. 9 It was not because we do not have that right, but to give you in ourselves an example to imitate. 10 For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat. 11 For we hear that some among you walk in idleness, not busy at work, but busybodies. 12 Now such persons we command and encourage in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work quietly and to earn their own living.

When a person is idle, it becomes a breeding ground for doing non-constructive things, which Paul touches on when he speaks of busybodies.  This is often coupled in scripture with gossips and slanderers, people who are busy doing things they ought not to be doing.  When we keep ourselves busy in a constructive way, such as work, or providing for our families as we should, then we are not causing issues.