2 hours ago, not an echo said:

The basic distinctions that I make between the era of the Church and the Israelite Nation are in tune with the basic distinctions that can be made between things relating to the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.  For example, as the Israelite Nation was a focal point of the Old Covenant, the Christian Church is a focal point of the New Covenant, and everything about either stems from God's promise to Abraham to bless all nations through his seed.  In other words, the fulfilling of God's promise to Abraham connects with the establishment of the Nation in the Old Testament days and it continues with the establishment of the Church in these New Testament days.

 

It may just be the wording, but to clarify this distinction you speak of for anyone reading I want to clarify with some subtle, but important differences.  The Old Covenant was regarding the law, not the nation of Israel through which the law was first given.  As was proven historically, the law was inadequate and all who lived by the law were destined to perish because we are all incapable of keeping it.

The promise to Abraham was fulfilled by Jesus, when He gave His life for all mankind, thereby becoming the blessing as promised in Genesis 12 "in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” upon His resurrection.  The fulfillment of the promise, and the law and prophets by Jesus is the New Covenant, and He is the link between the two.

 

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

There is coming a day---and it may be today---when Christ will return for His Church.  Relating to the Israelite nation, there is a 70 Weeks prophecy written of in the book of Daniel (9:24-27), of which 69 Weeks have been fulfilled.  The 70th Week has not been fulfilled.

 

I do not agree with dispensationalism, so I have to disagree with your conclusion above.  Biblically, and historically speaking, it is a rather dubious and unsupported conclusion to say that the 70 weeks of Daniel have not been fulfilled.  The overwhelming evidence simply does not support the theory.

 

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

The thing of the Church being raptured prior to Daniel's 70th Week is a matter of the fulfilling of Bible prophecy, and has less to do with the nature of the tribulation that will be experienced and more to do with what has been prophesied concerning the Israelite nation.

 

What prophecy are you referring to in which a removal is spoken of?  In regards to the prophecy I see, the remnant of Israel is not going to experience the tribulation you predict.

 

Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.

 

The prophet Hosea describes this event as follows.

 

Hosea 2:14 “Therefore, behold, I will allure her,
    and bring her into the wilderness,
    and speak tenderly to her.
15 And there I will give her her vineyards
    and make the Valley of Achor a door of hope.
And there she shall answer as in the days of her youth,
    as at the time when she came out of the land of Egypt.

16 “And in that day, declares the Lord, you will call me ‘My Husband,’ and no longer will you call me ‘My Baal.’ 17 For I will remove the names of the Baals from her mouth, and they shall be remembered by name no more. 18 And I will make for them a covenant on that day with the beasts of the field, the birds of the heavens, and the creeping things of the ground. And I will abolish the bow, the sword, and war from the land, and I will make you lie down in safety. 19 And I will betroth you to me forever. I will betroth you to me in righteousness and in justice, in steadfast love and in mercy. 20 I will betroth you to me in faithfulness. And you shall know the Lord.

 

Isaiah also confirms what Hosea had to say, but one important aspect of the above is the final segment I posted, in which the word betrothed is used.  The fact that these individuals are His bride it creates serious issues with your timing in which the bride is gathered.  Either the bride is one body, or Jesus is a polygamist and this bride in most pre-trib scenarios is shunned from the marriage supper.

In regards to the Jewish people as a whole, there are two groups in this time.  The remnant that God has promised to preserve (which we see described in the passages I posted), and there is the group that are not His, as shown in the prophesy of Zechariah.

 

Zechariah 13:8 In the whole land, declares the Lord,
    two thirds shall be cut off and perish,
    and one third shall be left alive.
9 And I will put this third into the fire,
    and refine them as one refines silver,
    and test them as gold is tested.
They will call upon my name,
    and I will answer them.
I will say, ‘They are my people’;
    and they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”

 

So 2/3 of the people will be cut off, and they perish.  I would hope that given the hundreds of examples in scripture regarding what it means to be cut off are enough clarification that it doesn't require posting them.  The meaning is clarified well enough just in this passage regarding the declaration that the 1/3 He brings through the fire are called "His people."

On 7/4/2020 at 1:16 PM, not an echo said:

Well, wingnut-, I didn't mean to write a pamphlet, I just got started and have enjoyed a little time of reminiscing. 

 

It's all good brother, I've enjoyed getting to know more about you.  I realized how late it was last night so I stopped short of responding to everything as I intended, so I want to address some of what I opted out of last night.  Right now as it stands, I feel the biggest hurdle is to address the chronology issue.  I know you haven't had time yet to respond to my posts regarding the 7th trumpet so while that remains pending I wanted to discuss the three woes as they also provide clear markers for us to indicate sequence of events.

 

Revelation 8:13 Then I looked, and I heard an eagle crying with a loud voice as it flew directly overhead, “Woe, woe, woe to those who dwell on the earth, at the blasts of the other trumpets that the three angels are about to blow!”

 

So following the fourth trumpet we get this information that tells us the three woes directly correlate to the 5th, 6th, and 7th trumpets.  So we know that what occurs with each one of these trumpets correlates to the woes, but there are also other passages that speak to the woes as well.

 

Revelation 9  And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit.

 

Stars are used as symbols for angels in scripture, and here we see John telling us that the star is a "he", and this being is going to unlock the abyss.  When he does, some unsavory things will come out of it, and we are also told that their king is Abaddon, or Apollyon, the destroyer.  I would consider that it is not speculation to deduce this is a reference to satan.

 

Revelation 12:7 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, 8 but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. 11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. 12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”

 

In chapter 12 we see that at the point satan and his angels are cast out of heaven and down to the earth, it is a woe to the earth and sea, which means this is one of our three woes.  It just so happens to correlate perfectly with the first woe, when an angel fallen from heaven to earth goes down and unlocks the abyss.  This to me connects the timing of the first woe and the fifth trumpet to this occurrence in chapter 12, our first woe.

Chapter 12 ends, and chapter 13 begins with the dragon standing on the shore of the sea, and our introduction to the beast out of the sea in chapter 13.  This is what leads up to the period of the great tribulation, the final 3 1/2 year period which is outlined in both chapter 12 and 13.

 

Revelation 9:12 The first woe has passed; behold, two woes are still to come.

13 Then the sixth angel blew his trumpet, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar before God, 14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.”

 

So the first woe is set off by the fifth trumpet, which results with the devil and his angels being cast down to earth, this is that woe which ushers in the reign of the beast and the establishment of his kingdom.  The sixth trumpet, which is the second woe, does not come for nearly three and a half years after the first woe, near the very end of the great tribulation period.  These final events all occur right on top of each other, sudden destruction.

Now the four angels related to the sixth trumpet have been waiting for a specific, day, hour, month, and year to be released with this massive army that will kill a third of mankind with three plagues, fire, smoke, and sulfur.  This is the second woe, and we also see in chapter 11 that the events occurring there relate to specific timing with the sixth trumpet, or second woe.

 

Revelation 11:12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them. 13 And at that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14 The second woe has passed; behold, the third woe is soon to come.

 

So in chapter 11 we are told about the two witnesses and their 3 1/2 year period of time in Jerusalem.  They are killed 3 1/2 days prior to the verse I started with, and in verse 12 we see them gathered in the clouds with everyone else.  At the very same hour this is taking place we have the great earthquake occurring, Jerusalem falling apart, and the only group in the entire book of Revelation that repents and turns to God occurs at this time, after the gathering.  This group accounts for your millennial individuals, everyone else is wicked and will perish.  The second woe which is the sixth trumpet ends at the conclusion of chapter 11, and the third woe comes quickly.

 

 

 

On 7/4/2020 at 2:33 AM, not an echo said:

I wish I could fully agree wingnut-, but what you refer to as "the facts" I see a little differently.  According to my interpretations...

1.  It is things at the time of Christ's Sign Return for the rapture of the Church that will be just like they were in Noah's day.  Interestingly, interpreted this way, everything that Jesus speaks about in Matthew 24:29-51, Mark 13:24-37, and Luke 21:25-36 connects with the very day of the rapture.  Everything.

 

 You are creating an event out of a sign.  A sign is simple, they point us in a direction.  The sign of His coming is what the disciples asked about, and He tells them exactly where it will occur in a sequenced order of events.  If He were coming more than once, don't you think He would have said so to His faithful followers?  In all three gospel accounts, He specifies that His coming is when we are gathered.

 

On 7/4/2020 at 2:33 AM, not an echo said:

2.  I believe I agree with your statement here, but what you have in parenthesis kinda throws me.  As I understand your position, don't you mean, This negates the idea of a 7 year period of time to PRECEDE it?

 

No, I mean it negates a 7 year period to follow it.  7 years is not "sudden" by any definition.

 

On 7/4/2020 at 2:33 AM, not an echo said:

3.  Christ's Sign Return and His Second Coming do not occur at or near the same moment.  Sometimes they are mentioned separately in Scripture. 

 

They are never separated in scripture, there is not one example of this.  If you believe there are any examples, please share the scripture.

 

On 7/4/2020 at 2:33 AM, not an echo said:

In Matthew's account of the Olivet Discourse, Jesus speaks of His Second Coming in 24:26-28 and then of His Sign Return in 24:29-31. 

 

Matthew 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

They are not separated, and the sign is not the sun, moon, and stars, they occurred in the previous verse.  After that occurs, THEN His sign appears, the people on earth mourn because of it, and they see Him COMING.  You are trying to insert a 7 year period of time into a sequence that Jesus does not allow for.

 

On 7/4/2020 at 2:33 AM, not an echo said:

In The Revelation, Jesus' Sign Return is shown to occur in 6:12-7:17 (with the opening of the 6th Seal, which corresponds to Matt. 24:29-31) and then His Second Coming is shown to occur in 19:11-21 (which corresponds to Matt. 24:26-28).

 

The 6th seal events are not the sign, refer back to Jesus' own words and you can see that His sign comes after the events of the sixth seal.

 

On 7/4/2020 at 2:33 AM, not an echo said:

In II Thessalonians 2, Christ's Sign Return for the gathering of the Church is spoken of in verse one, and then His Second Coming (i.e., the Day of Christ/KJV) is spoken of in verses two and eight.

 

II Thessalonians 2  Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,

 

You are changing what scripture says to construct a theory.  The verse in II Thessalonians says nothing about a "sign" return because there is no such thing.  Paul specifically says His coming, and our gathering.  His coming and our gathering are then combined into what Paul refers to as " a day" in verse 2, which is a common literary device you will find in every book or story ever written.  As a writer I implement this myself, as does any writer.  In each instance you do this, you are attempting to insert a 7 year time gap in between consecutive verses, or in regard to the Olivet discourse you are trying to insert a 7 year time gap into the very same verse.

 

On 7/4/2020 at 2:33 AM, not an echo said:

I believe the primary purpose for Jesus' use of the example of the ark (and Lot's deliverance) was not to convey the nature of the deliverance, but the importance of being ready for the deliverance.  This is the tenor of everything that is said relating to the period of the Day of the Lord, which includes Daniel's 70th Week.  I don't see anyway that Scripture can be correctly interpreted to fit a post-trib deliverance.  Simply put, such to me is as difficult as it would have been for us, if we had lived in Noah's day, to be considering whether our boarding of the ark would be pre-flood, mid-flood, or post-flood.

 

First I want to clarify I am not post-trib, you're reading that into my responses but it is not accurate.  I am much closer to post-trib than pre-trib, but I am not in the post-trib camp as we are about an hour apart on our timing.  In regards to Noah and the ark, the inescapable truth of the matter is that if Noah or any one of his family members had fallen off of or jumped off of the ark, they would have been in trouble.  Their safety was limited to remaining on the ark, because they hadn't gone anywhere and remained on planet earth.  As for Lot and his daughters, if they had looked back like his wife did, they would have turned to salt also.  Their safety was contingent on their obedience, because again, they were still on planet earth.  The morale of both stories as I see it, is to abide in Him.

On 7/3/2020 at 5:54 PM, not an echo said:

As I see it wingnut-, considering what the two Christians faced, I don't believe spiritualizing the experience of the martyred Christian really satisfies what the word "escape" denotes or connotes.  Do you see what I mean?

 

I don't see what you mean.  What it appears to me you are saying, is that your definition of escape takes precedence over what Jesus defined it as.  When He tells the very people He is speaking to, some of you will be executed but not a hair of your head will be harmed, after saying they will be accounted worthy to escape all these things if they remain faithful, then Jesus Himself has defined what the meaning of escape is.  If it is "spiritualized" as you put it, then Jesus declared it to be.

On 7/3/2020 at 2:26 PM, not an echo said:

This also fits The Revelation's chronology of His Sign Return at the opening of the 6th Seal and His later Second Coming for the Battle of Armageddon.

 

I'm a little confused by some of your comments, in particular regarding the 6th seal, so for clarity I have to ask.  If I understand you correctly, you see the 6th seal as the rapture, so from that point you believe there are 7 years to go before His coming?  If so, what about the first five seals?

 

On 7/3/2020 at 5:35 PM, not an echo said:

Question wingnut-:  If the 7th Trumpet is the rapture trumpet, and the rapture happens "in the twinkling of an eye" at this trumpet, what is your understanding of everything that happens thereafter?

 

Ok, to answer the question first I need to clarify a few things so you understand what I believe.  First, when you say rapture, I read gathering, because that is what the word harpazo is speaking of, a very specific detail.  Another specific detail, in regards to the gathering, is that we are transformed into our glorified bodies, the resurrection.  This is what occurs in the "twinkling of an eye", our being changed to a glorified body, at the time of our gathering.

So what happens thereafter would be the Millennial Kingdom, which begins with the battle of Armageddon.  This "battle" will be over in a matter of moments based on the specifics in scripture.

 

On 7/3/2020 at 5:35 PM, not an echo said:

When you consider the brief overview of what happens after the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, you can see this expounded on for the next nine chapters.

 

When you say brief overview of what happens after the 7th trumpet, what information are you talking about?  Surely you don't mean the actual words that accompany the sounding of the 7th trumpet?

 

 

 

On 7/3/2020 at 5:35 PM, not an echo said:

I'm not really sure how you interpret the sounding of the 7th Trumpet "and what the results of this trumpet are."  I know that it is common that this trumpet is seen as being "the Last Trump" (I Cor. 15:52), "the Trump of God" (I Thess. 4:16), and the "great sound of a trumpet" (Matt. 24:31)---and I can kinda understand this.  But, there are other things that are written that point to something different and cause me to come to another conclusion. 

 

What I am referring to is what is specifically stated at the sounding of the 7th trumpet.

 

Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”

 

Right off the bat we are told that the world is now His kingdom, and He will reign forever and ever.  This is a major issue for your theory, because you believe there are still years to go under the reign of the enemy accompanied by God's judgement on what is now His own kingdom.  That's your first problem with the place this is said as far as chronology goes.

 

Revelation 11:17 saying,

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
    who is and who was,
for you have taken your great power
    and begun to reign.

 

It is reiterated again here, that His reign has begun.  Sounds like the millennial period to me.

 

Revelation 11:18 The nations raged,
    but your wrath came,
    and the time for the dead to be judged,
and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints,
    and those who fear your name,
    both small and great,
and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.”

 

Wrath came already, time for judging the dead and rewarding the prophets and saints.

 

Revelation 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

 

According to John, the time for judgement has still not taken place as late as chapter 20, and that some who will be reigning with Christ during the millennium includes those who did not worship the beast or receive his mark.

 

On 7/3/2020 at 2:26 PM, not an echo said:

Hello wingnut- (and all),

Well, it's been a long week for me.  The pandemic has resulted in my place of employment being cut to a skeleton crew and me being scheduled for 12 hour days.  I'm the most senior person, having now been there over 42 years, and things can often get quite demanding.  I'm also serving as a pastor for a little flock that means the world to me, not to mention being a family man.  I have sometimes said that I am spread so thin that one can about see through me!  Annnyway, I am glad to be able to share some again, and hopefully even get caught up on some things here at home. 

 

Hello brother, glad to see you back and well.

 

On 7/3/2020 at 2:26 PM, not an echo said:

My first thought concerning your above reply is that if John's account of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-7:17) and Matthew 24:29-31 (which I believe we are both see as describing the same event) is of the Second Coming, how does the lesson of the fig tree connect?

 

Ok, so first I want to answer your question regarding the fig tree and the connection as to what it represents, the harvest of the earth.

 

Luke 13:6 And he told this parable: “A man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. 7 And he said to the vinedresser, ‘Look, for three years now I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and I find none. Cut it down. Why should it use up the ground?’ 8 And he answered him, ‘Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and put on manure. 9 Then if it should bear fruit next year, well and good; but if not, you can cut it down.’”

 

On 7/3/2020 at 2:26 PM, not an echo said:

As I have said elsewhere, when someone is present, their return is not pending.

 

Now, as in regards to the timing, here is where we differ.  You are assigning His coming, to the sign of His coming.  The sign of His coming is telling you that His return is still pending, but very near.  Pay close attention to the exact words and the order in which they occur.

 

Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 

 

Now, the first thing is that this immediately follows the period in which the beast has carried out his 3 1/2 year war on the saints.  At that point the sun, moon, and stars go dark.  You already recognize that the 6th seal is at the end of the great tribulation based on your statements above since you understand these two passages speak to the same thing.  Jesus gives you very specific timing on this event.

 

Matthew 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

So, according to Jesus what you have is this order, great tribulation, then darkness, then appears the sign of Jesus, which we have learned in the gospels that following His resurrection He literally shines, defined as glory by the apostles.  Every eye will see Him coming because He will be the only light in the darkness from the moment He appears in the heavens until He arrives on the Mt. of Olives.  The fact that He is still coming displays clearly that He is still not present.  The gathering occurs in verse 31, indicating that He collects His sheep on His way back to earth.

 

On 7/3/2020 at 2:26 PM, not an echo said:

Of course, if by "all these things" one takes this to mean everything that Jesus said from Matthew 24:4-31, I can kinda understand, but "all these things" certainly seems (to me, anyway) to include verses 29-31, whether exclusive of what He said prior, or inclusive.

 

As I pointed out above, the timing is very specific that this occurs after the tribulation of those days, which would include "all these things" as the disciples asked Him very specific questions.

 

Matthew 24:3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

 

Three questions, when will these things be?  Regarding the destruction of the temple.  What will be the sign of your coming?  And what marks the end of the age?  Now the problem as I see it, is you are attempting to separate His answers to these questions with unknown qualifiers as to whom what applies to.  He is speaking to a specific audience.

 

On 7/3/2020 at 2:26 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning Matthew's account alone, I see the first section (24:4-14) as really pertaining to the era of the Church (especially), with huge relevance to every generation of the Church since the first century.  I see the second section (24:15-28) as really pertaining to the Israelites (especially) and the time of Daniel's 70th Week, which will close with Christ's Second Coming and the Battle of Armageddon (vss. 26-28).  And finally, I see the third section (24:29-51) as pertaining to very day of the event of Christ's Sign Return for both the rapture of the Church and as sign to the Israelite nation, seven years (and some months) before His Second Coming. 

 

Ok, so here is the problem I see with your conclusion.  First, there is nothing prior to your third section that indicates anyone going anywhere.  The issue you are running into is the focus should be on the questions which are being answered, three of them, and any sectioning should be in regards to the questions.  Another major concern is your attempt to separate Jew from Gentile when the very people He is speaking to are His disciples, which are the equivalent of the church.  Scripture is very clear that there is no division by race in the body of Christ, from the time of the resurrection forward He has made one man.  Paul writes about this explicitly in his letters, you may want to refer to Ephesians.

 

Now to address why your sections are faulty, I am just going to show you what I mentioned previously in regards to the II Thessalonians passage you posted.  Paul gives the exact same sequence as Jesus gives in the Olivet discourse.

 

Matthew 24:10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another.

Matthew 24:12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.

 

II Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

 

So you first get the apostasy in verse 10 of the Olivet discourse, in verse 12 lawlessness will be increased.  The man of lawlessness is responsible for the AoD, which Jesus tells us of in verse 15 indicating what we get in verse 15 is detailed information that is occurring within the period between verses 10 and 12.  This is why you see repetitive information regarding warnings about false prophets and not to "go out" when they claim Jesus is here.  This is common in prophecies, we see the same thing in Revelation where we are given a summary, and then a detailed look elsewhere.  That is why verse 15 is framed in the manner it is, beginning with, "So when you see the AoD...."   We will see it in the previous section, sometime after verse 10.

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

 

My title:

 Are the U.S. and Trump the Ones Restraining?

Restraining what? that is explained in the body of the text as lawlessness, never as evil.

 

Ok William, you are arguing semantics now.  My original post in response to your OP specifically addresses one example of the US govt engaging in lawlessness.  The example I gave demonstrates not only the complete disregard for the laws of the US, but also violated the Geneva Convention, which is international law.  Exactly how many examples of lawless behavior by our government do you require?

I chose that specific example, because what resulted from the Vietnam conflict, was 58,000 dead americans, and over 2 million dead Vietnamese.  Those numbers don't reflect the entire loss of life, because the Truman administration and the Eisenhower administrations pre-dated our "official" involvement.  Those numbers don't reflect the total number of lives lost, including the French, Laos, Thailand, Cambodian, and other nations that suffered casualties along the way.  Roughly 3 million lives lost so a handful of men could get rich on blood money, you'll have to forgive me, but I call that evil.

Furthermore, the text in question does not state that lawlessness is being restrained, you are misquoting the text.  It says the man of lawlessness, son of perdition, that would be a being.  On top of that, this lawlessness is not in regards to US law, or any other nations laws, this is scripture, it is referencing God's law.  There are only two sides to this, good and evil, arguing semantics does not make your theory any more plausible than it was before.

15 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Show me one place where I've said that evil is the thing being restrained, and you got me. Otherwise, get your facts straight.

 

As I stated in my last response to you, WHY DON'T YOU REFER TO THE TITLE OF YOUR THREAD?  The only one in need of getting things straight is you.

23 minutes ago, not an echo said:

I never suffer or experience guilt over my past sins now, but I do sometimes remember.

 

I understand, and just to clarify, I wasn't insinuating that you did.  My responses will reflect my own personal thoughts, regarding my own personal perspective, so just know that nothing I say is with you in mind as far as an example, I am just sharing my thoughts.  What I had in mind here, are some of the things that occasionally come back to me, and what I have learned over the years is that these reminders come from the enemy in an attempt to make me suffer.  This is what I had in mind with my response.

 

20 minutes ago, not an echo said:

Concerning your second paragraph, I can certainly appreciate your humble spirit.  Hey, who knows, maybe we'll be cleaning stables beside each other.

 

Sounds like a plan, I look forward to the day.

45 minutes ago, not an echo said:

Concerning the above portion of my post, I hope you now understand more fully where I am coming from, though you may disagree.  I'm wondering concerning the last sentence of your reply---"One will be ashamed, and the other will not."---if you are seeing the "ashamed" person of John's admonition as representing a lost person?

 

Yes, those who are ashamed are naked, meaning no Holy Spirit, so they are unsaved if that is what you mean by lost.  Because of our differences regarding the timing of the gathering, we end up with very different outlooks on the millennial kingdom.  Another major hurdle is our difference of opinion regarding chronology in Revelation.  I can lay out my understanding for you, but the chronology is going to be confusing from your current perspective.

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hey, do you have a testimony thread or a thread outlining the more full extent of how you are seeing things?  That would really interest me...

 

You know, I had my testimony posted on here for many years, but a few software upgrades ago it was lost.  All that remained were some replies to it, so I had the board moderators delete the remnants of it at that time.  A year or so ago I intended to post an updated version, typed it all out, pasted it onto the site, but then decided not to submit it.  I have good reasons for not doing so, not because I am ashamed of any part of it myself, but to preserve the integrity of others that cannot be omitted from it.

Over 14 years you would think I would have a lot of material on here, which I do, but I have not created very many threads of my own in all that time, mostly I just engage in someone else's thread when something catches my interest.  I am more than willing to discuss any aspect of this that you want, but it would be difficult to compile an entire end times presentation in a single thread, there are so many complex parts.  This is your thread though, so on that basis we can discuss anything you want.

19 hours ago, not an echo said:

Two, the else of our escaping what was never intended for the Church in the first place.  It seems that those who are persuaded that the rapture will be pre-Daniel's 70th Week (unfortunately popularly termed pre-trib) often get a bad rap because it is thought that we are not wanting to face tribulation and especially the worst of the worst.  Perhaps it is thought that we think  that if we keep believing that we will not go through that time, maybe the possibility will go away.  Well, we know that things don't quite work that way.  And, none of this even borders on any kind of mentality that I have ever had.

 

I skipped over your first point because I already addressed that in a previous post, so to avoid repetition I am just going to jump to this area.  In regards to the above, I am not questioning your motives, and if you got that impression from my posts all I can say is that nothing I have to say is intended to be received as such.  Up until about a decade ago, I believed in the pre-trib position myself, and it had nothing to do with fear.  It had more to do with programming, as this is what was put into my head and reinforced for decades, so I accepted it.  There are very few churches within the entire nation I live that teach anything else, and for those who attend seminary, every major one in existence teaches this theory, as was the case when I got my degree in eschatology.  The funny thing is, if I were trying for that degree today they would fail me, despite the fact I understand a great deal more about prophecy now than I did then.

 

19 hours ago, not an echo said:

To me, the thing of whether the Church will continue on the earth through Daniel's 70th Week is less about what the Church may have to go through and more about the fulfilling of what has been prophesied concerning the Israelite nation (e.g. Dan. 9:24-27).  As I see it, it is also very logical that since the Church was not a part of the fulfilling of the first 69 weeks of this prophecy, it won't be a part of the 70th Week. 

 

I understand the mentality of your position, having once believed the same thing, however, I now see the flaws in it.

 

19 hours ago, not an echo said:

And, I believe I may need to clarify that when I say Church, I am not talking about any building, but what Jesus told His disciples that He would build (Matt. 16:18) and what 3000 Jews were added to on the Day of Pentecost---something they had not prior to that time been a part of (Acts 2:41-47).  Of this Church, I am most grateful to be a part.

 

I'm unclear as to what you are saying above, so I am unsure how to comment other than ask for clarification.  Are you suggesting that  the "Church" was not made up of Jews until Pentecost, and that these 3000 were the first Jews in the Church?

 

19 hours ago, not an echo said:

I'm guessing that you don't see Revelation 7:9-17 as being the raptured Church in Heaven, but I do.  And concerning the elder's statement in verse 14, "These are they which came out of great tribulation,"  I see this as being quite appropriately said of the Church as whole, from a worldwide and historical perspective.

 

That is correct, the gathering comes much later, on the last day as Jesus foretold.  These individuals that came out of the great tribulation were killed during the beast's war on the saints.  This is why they are there, and not here.

 

19 hours ago, not an echo said:

Finally, Paul says something about the rapture of the Church in II Thessalonians 2 that I would like to put forth in a little different light.  Note my understanding in parenthesis:

  1   Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (at the rapture), and by our gathering together unto Him (during the rapture),

  2   That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as the the Day (strict sense, like Monday) of Christ (His Second Coming!) is at hand.

  3   Let no man deceive you by any means:  for THAT DAY (strict sense) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

It's interesting, how we can see something so plainly stated, and not see it.  For the majority of my life I read this countless number of times, but some invisible veil prevented me from seeing it myself.  These three verses are evidence that excludes the pre-trib theory from even being a possibility, which is why it is one of two end times theories that I see as impossible, the other being preterism.

The day Paul discusses, is in regards to His coming and our gathering, and that day shall not come, until after the falling away and the beast is revealed.  This places the gathering at some point beyond the abomination of desolation, and after what is widely considered the mid point, during the 3 1/2 year period known as the great tribulation.

 

20 hours ago, not an echo said:

It is upon this basis that Paul beseeches his readers to not be troubled.

 

Actually Paul is comforting them not to be troubled by false teachings that claim they missed the gathering, and he then lays out some events that must come first as a guideline, reinforcing that he had shared these things with them before.

 

20 hours ago, not an echo said:

I'm not what some may call a KJV only.  I've just done a lot of snooping, and I think we need to be careful about allowing this portion of the KJV to be changed from the way that it is.  This is no reflection on anything I've seen you say wingnut-. 

 

Fortunately some friendships in my youth led to me being fluent in Greek, so arguments regarding the translation of words have zero impact on me.  There are some on this site, who have admitted that if I spoke to them in Greek they would have no clue what I said, yet still think they can convince me that the proper translation is something other than what anyone fluent in Greek says it is.  I love my KJV, there is something very comforting in the poetry of the language to me, perhaps nostalgia.  However, for ease of reading and assurance that anyone who reads my posts understands, I use the ESV translation here.  I prefer this translation above all others because it uses the most literal translation of the Greek and Hebrew.

 

23 hours ago, not an echo said:

Just to kinda keep my bearings, this part of our discussion still stems from our discussion concerning whether Revelation 16:15 should be seen as a chronological indicator.  It is evident that this 16th chapter revolves around John's account of the vials of God's wrath being poured out, and with verse 15, six of these vials have been poured out.  I'm not even close to being able to wrap my head around how that six vials of God's wrath can be poured out (not to mention everything else that has occurred up to this point in The Revelation) and things being "life as usual."  I feel that I must be missing some perspective that you have, or something.

 

What you are experiencing is a common issue when two people with very different positions discuss these matters.  To understand what you are missing you would have to understand my overall beliefs on the subject, at this point you only have my timing on the gathering itself, and this conflicts with other areas of your position, but it doesn't conflict with mine.  Whatever issues you believe are contrary to this possibility, I can explain with scripture, the question is whether you can look at it with a clean slate.

One of the main points of concern here are related to the sequence of events, and what our individual understanding of those events represent.  There are two main aspects to these things, one is physical, and the other is spiritual.  How we decide to interpret each event and which aspect it represents largely determines the direction our beliefs will go.  For example, take the mark of the beast, is it physical or spiritual?  If I believe it is physical, and you believe it is spiritual, then we come to two very different conclusions in regards to everything related to this mark.  These decisions ultimately lead to more theories and/or beliefs than I can even imagine.  As I explained before, I take scripture at face value, which includes our instructions as to how to determine what is true and what is not true in regards to it.  By that I mean, how one "tests" something against scripture, if a belief hinges on a single verse with no supporting scripture, it simply won't do.  God built witnesses into scripture for a reason, and as Paul explained in his letter to Timothy, every single word holds meaning.

So, in regards to Noah, let's just look at the facts.

1.  The Second Coming will be just like it was in Noah's day.

2.  It is sudden destruction, life will be going on as usual right up until the storm hits.  It is not slow and gradual, it is immediate and permanent. (This negates the idea of a 7 year period of time to follow it.)

3.  The Second Coming and the gathering occur at or near the same moment.  Every mention of them is together in scripture, they are linked.

 

Now this is how the concept of Noah breaks down in my view, as far as what the event itself represents concerning future application.  The ark represents safety and security against the coming storm and destruction of the planet by the flood, which God is doing.  The ark is the equivalent of our guarantee in the Holy Spirit, available for everyone who accepts Christ's gift of salvation.

Noah and his family took years to build this ark, representative of our personal walk with Christ as we work out our salvation with fear and trembling.  Noah continued to warn the people that a storm was coming, just as we are instructed to deliver the gospel message to people, so they can build their "ark" to escape the coming storm.  The storm represents God's judgement on the wicked, not the righteous.  Since we know scripture tells us no one is righteous, that would seem ominous except for the fact scripture tells us though we are not righteous, we are MADE righteous.  How are we made righteous?  By the seal of the Holy Spirit, our guarantee, our ark.  Noah and his family were not removed from the earth, or going through the flood, they just were protected from the judgement by the ark, just as believers will not be subject to any of God's judgement in the future, we have our arks as well.

This is also represented in other Old Testament events, such as the 10 plagues on Egypt.  When the death angel passed over Egypt, all those who had covered their doorframes with the Blood of the Lamb were "passed over", untouched by the plague.  There is a consistency to how God deals with people in scripture, and removing people from the earth is not consistent with this age, or any prior age.  It only appears in scripture as a future event, at the end of this age, and the end of the age is the harvest of the earth.

On 6/26/2020 at 2:17 PM, not an echo said:

One conflict I see relates to Jesus' words as recorded in Luke's account of His Olivet Discourse.  In Luke 21, it reads:

 36  Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, AND TO STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.

 

Hello brother,

I'm glad you started with the Luke passage, because really this gets us right to the heart of the matter.  What this really boils down to is, what we perceive the "escape" is about.  So let's go over the information that defines "all these things" which we are escaping.  The first thing we have to address though, is how we accept scripture individually, because this ultimately colors how we view it.  Some are in the habit of picking and choosing what scripture applies to them and what doesn't, I am not one of those people.  I believe every word applies to all of us, so in regards to Luke, from the individuals present when Jesus spoke these words up until the present and going forward are the intended audience. 

 

Luke 21:5 And while some were speaking of the temple, how it was adorned with noble stones and offerings, he said, 6 “As for these things that you see, the days will come when there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”

 

The temple was destroyed as Jesus foretold them it would be.  Now we know from Matthew's account that He was speaking with His disciples privately.  At the time of the temple's destruction, some of these people were already dead from persecution, but some were still alive.  Did they escape it?  Which ones escaped it?  And if so, how?

 

Luke 21: 8 And he said, “See that you are not led astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am he!’ and, ‘The time is at hand!’ Do not go after them.

 

Did His audience escape the false messiah's?  How about us, have we?  In my 14 years here at worthy, there have been literally hundreds of individuals that came to this site claiming to be Jesus.  That's just this site, there are hundreds more that never came to this site but have made national news as cult leaders claiming to be the messiah.  So, have we escaped this thing?  If so, how?

 

Luke 21:9 And when you hear of wars and tumults, do not be terrified, for these things must first take place, but the end will not be at once.”

 

Did they escape wars and tumults?  Have we?  If so, how?

 

Luke 21:10 Then he said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, and in various places famines and pestilences. And there will be terrors and great signs from heaven.

 

Did they escape any of these things?  Have we?  If so, how?

 

Luke 21:12 But before all this they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors for my name's sake. 13 This will be your opportunity to bear witness. 14 Settle it therefore in your minds not to meditate beforehand how to answer, 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which none of your adversaries will be able to withstand or contradict.

 

This specific section and what follows are the main issue here, and to avoid this post getting too lengthy I am going to sum up my point here and not continue going through the entire chapter and all that follows.  We can see plainly in this section, that the promised "escape" has nothing to do with physical relocation, as these individuals who were present while He spoke were told specifically that they will be taken captive and delivered up to their enemies.

 

Luke 21:16 You will be delivered up even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and some of you they will put to death. 17 You will be hated by all for my name's sake.

 

Right here, they are told that some of them will be put to death.  Yet, look what the very next sentence says.

 

Luke 21:18 But not a hair of your head will perish.

 

Executed, but not a hair of their head will perish?

 

Luke 21:19 By your endurance you will gain your lives.

 

So what we have is a promised "escape", in which some will be executed, without a hair on their head perishing, and by enduring they gain their lives...... in death.  Everyone should take their time and carefully consider what this means.

 

 

10 hours ago, not an echo said:

Concerning your last sentence, I believe the only way that I could see this is if I took the event of the 6th Seal and Matthew 24:29-31 to be of the Second Coming, and I just can't see this.  Is this how you are seeing things?

 

Yes, that is how I see it as they describe the exact same signs, including the lesson of the fig tree.

 

10 hours ago, not an echo said:

As I see things, it is The Revelation that is the most accurate chronology of last day's prophecy that we have in Scripture. 

 

The issue of chronology in Revelation is what separates most theories on the timing surrounding end times events.  There are numerous things that to me, make it clear that it is not chronological.  One of the clearest examples would be the 7th trumpet and what the results of this trumpet are, along with the three woes and their location in Revelation.

 

10 hours ago, not an echo said:

In my second post of this thread, I have a list of threads that I have started that intertwine with all of this.

 

If I have the time I will look it over so I have a better understanding where you are coming from.  One of the biggest issues people face in these discussions is their overall view can interfere with understanding another persons perspective.

 

10 hours ago, not an echo said:

Of course, I know my position is not in accord with any of the popular views, and I can understand why one's initial inclination might be to just dismiss it.

 

Neither is mine, so we have that in common.

 

10 hours ago, not an echo said:

I would just ask anyone to prayerfully consider what I have put forth.

 

That's my hope as well.

21 minutes ago, other one said:

the restrainer isn't restraining evil, he is restraining an entity called the
man of lawlessness, the son of destruction.  when i look around i see evil all over everywhere.

 

 

So you don't think this entity is the epitome of evil?  I suspect once this man of lawlessness surfaces, the evil we have seen to this point is going to look like a fairy tale life.

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

You are misquoting the passage and inserting your own meaning into it.

 

William, seriously?  What is the title of your thread?  On my screen it says, "Are the US and Trump the ones restraining?"  Furthermore, you insert irrelevant information to create an argument I never made because your OP is definitively flawed at the foundation, which I exposed.  Instead of making false claims about what I say, how about showing me where in our conversation I quoted any scripture for you to falsely state that I misquoted what does not appear.

 

 

40 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

All true, and completely irrelevant.

 

The relevance is that you are insinuating they are restraining evil when in fact they have been perpetrating evil.  What is irrelevant is the attempt to tie historical empires into this conversation that no one claimed was restraining evil.  I certainly made no mention of it, so I'm not going to chase a red herring you created on your own that has no application.

8 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Can there be any doubt that the spirit of lawlessness is now diligently working to destroy Americaʼs restraining (but waning) power against lawlessness; that is, that this spirit is subverting the governmentʼs ability to hold fast to the order of U.S. law and world law?

 

Just a quick bit of history to consider, as far as America restraining lawlessness when in fact our government has been one of the biggest perpetrators of lawlessness on the planet.  I can offer you one simple example that was made known public in 1971 when Pentagon documents were printed by the New York Times, and then the Washington Post.  The classified documents revealed that the White House from the Truman administration, Eisenhower administration, Kennedy administration, Johnson administration, up to and including the Nixon administration, were engaged in crimes against the Constitution of the United States, as well as international war crimes that violated the Geneva convention.  This included government corruption, interfering with a sovereign nations election process (Vietnam), numerous counts of perjury, falsifying official documents, lying to Congress, as well as to the American people.

 

This is something that goes back to Jewish beliefs that it is disrespectful to address God by name.  Most often when you see this it is from a Messianic Jew, or someone who attends a Messianic service at a Jewish temple.

17 hours ago, not an echo said:

Not sure how far along I will be able to get tonight, but maybe a few thoughts.

 

No worries brother, I'm in no hurry.

 

17 hours ago, not an echo said:

Of course, if one is saved, he is ready as far as salvation is concerned, but we know that everyone that thinks he or she is saved is not.  Paul said, "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith..." (II Cor. 13:5).  All that think they are ready may not be.

 

II Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test! 6 I hope you will find out that we have not failed the test. 7 But we pray to God that you may not do wrong—not that we may appear to have met the test, but that you may do what is right, though we may seem to have failed. 8 For we cannot do anything against the truth, but only for the truth.

 

In the context of the passage, Paul begins by pointing out that there were members in this church that were not bearing fruit.

 

II Corinthians 13: 2 I warned those who sinned before and all the others, and I warn them now while absent, as I did when present on my second visit, that if I come again I will not spare them— 3 since you seek proof that Christ is speaking in me. He is not weak in dealing with you, but is powerful among you.

 

So what Paul addresses here is an issue of not turning from sin, and that these members apparently not only continued in their sin, but also called Paul's teachings into question in an effort to justify their sinful nature.  Not only is Paul challenging them to test the spirit in themselves, but to test the validity of his teachings against scripture to determine whether his message comes from God or not.  Personally, I disagree that people are not aware of whom they serve.

 

17 hours ago, not an echo said:

And some who are genuinely saved are not really ready.  What do I mean?  I submit that any of God's children that are not disciples of His are not really ready.  Again, what do I mean??  I think of myself when, even as a child of God, I was caught up in the things of the world.  If Christ had come at that time in my life for the rapture of the Church, I surely believe that I would have found myself ashamed in His presence.

 

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you here, but to me what this sounds like is a works based salvation mentality mixing its way into your explanation.  I suspect that this does not reflect what you believe, but does warrant examination.  Typically when something like this occurs, what it reveals is a flaw in the conclusion.

In regards to being caught up in the world for a time, I would imagine that is something every believer has gone through at some point in time.  I spent my own season wandering in the wilderness, but I think the difference here is that when this occurs, a true child of God is not working against Him.  We may not be following Him as we should, but we are not in opposition to the faith, we're simply living in denial and justifying our misdeeds.

 

17 hours ago, not an echo said:

I think of John's admonition to believers, "And now, little children, abide in Him;  that, when He shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.  Ashamed?  A child of God, but ashamed?  Entering the Portals of Glory, but ashamed?  What is John getting at, and again, what do I mean???

 

I John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming. 29 If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.

 

John clarifies his teaching quite well I think.  He states in closing, that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of Him, or in other words, is clothed with the Holy Spirit.  So the requirement remains consistent throughout scripture, the Holy Spirit is the guarantee.  The concept of being ashamed is a recurring theme associated with "nakedness" and/or not being clothed.  Scripture further clarifies that the clothing required is the Holy Spirit, also demonstrated in greater detail regarding the whole armor of God, which is spiritual armor.

Since the resurrection of Jesus Christ, there are only two types of children that God sees, children of light and children of the dark.  Saved and unsaved.  Believers and non-believers.  Whatever terminology one prefers to apply, the end result is the same.  One group is clothed, and the other is not.  One will be ashamed, and the other will not.

 

17 hours ago, not an echo said:

Consider:  We who have been born-again have been made "new creatures" inwardly, in our souls.  And, during Christ's Reign, we will be in our new, glorified bodies.  This means that during Christ's Reign, we will be in a glorified state, both inwardly and outwardly.  But, we will still have our memories.  We will have our memories until that time that God "wipes away" all tears from our eyes and anything in our minds that would cause us sorrow in our eternity (Rev. 21:4-5).  This, however, will not happen until after Christ's Reign and the judgment of the lost at the Last Judgment (Rev. 20).  So, while our estate during Christ's Reign will be as royalty (Rev. 20:6), a thousand years is a long time for one to wish he or she had been more faithful or obedient.  This is something to seriously think about that most of God's children have thought nothing about.

 

I would tend to disagree with your conclusions regarding this.  Considering the body is glorified, and the brain is part of the body, I would suggest that the thought process would reflect that glorification.  While I agree the enemy hasn't been destroyed yet, he is bound and has no influence until he is set free at the end of the thousand years.  If you remove the accuser of the brethren from the equation I don't see glorified beings suffering from guilt over sins that have been washed clean.  In our glorified state, we have been perfected, correct?

As far as rewards go, I have no expectations.  I'll be content if my service is cleaning stables, being in His presence is reward enough for me.  Considering we are all undeserving to begin with, you are correct, I spend no time considering the reward phase.

 

Jerusalem.

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

So then this one mention must be the same group, yes?

 

Yes.