On 7/25/2020 at 1:05 AM, not an echo said:

The escape Jesus is talking about in Luke 21:36 is related to "that day" that He speaks of in verse 34,

 

That is not what is stated at all, you are taking the phrase "all these things" and attempting to reduce it to one thing.  He is clearly addressing all the tribulation that He has spoken to them.

 

Luke 21:36 But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

 

It's a very odd position to take, in saying that Jesus would speak these things to a specific group of people, and then try to remove from "all these things" the very specific details of tribulation that they are told they WILL experience personally.  Then you take something that based on your theory, won't occur for several millennia down the road, and try to narrow it down to just that one thing which then completely removes any relevance regarding the specific audience that asked Him the questions in the first place.

 

On 7/25/2020 at 1:05 AM, not an echo said:

Based on Matthew's parallel account of this same event, we know that this is the time of which Jesus says, "and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven."  At this time, Jews from "all the tribes" will mourn at the sight of Jesus (Matt. 24:30) and 144,000 will be saved, whom we see in connection with the 6th Seal (Rev. 7:1-8).  Also, the resurrection and the gathering of the Church will take place at this time (Matt. 24:31), which is the gathered multitude we see, likewise in connection with the 6th Seal (Rev. 7:9-17).

 

You're still not addressing the contradiction regarding the 144,000.  We see them being sealed in chapter 7, so they are not harmed by the coming judgements, which means they will be here on earth.  The second time we see them in chapter 14, we are told they specifically follow the Lamb wherever He goes following their redemption.  In order for that to be true, they MUST be in the same place Jesus is.  This does not align with your chronology.

The prophecies of Hosea and Isaiah are also in conflict with your theory, in that we are told the Lord takes them aside and tenderly speaks to them privately.  There is no scripture to support your theory that their conversion is regarding their seeing Him come to rapture the church, whilst leaving them behind to suffer.

On 7/25/2020 at 12:23 AM, not an echo said:

Yes, that is what I mean.  When the 7th Trumpet sounds, John writes concerning what he heard and saw (Rev. 11:15-17) and then of what happens (the overview).  And what happens?

 

Ok, so having familiarized myself with your timeline via the links you shared, let's just approach this from the beginning of the seventh trumpet and deal with things one item at a time.

 

Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”

 

So what we see in this opening declaration, is that the kingdom of the world,  meaning earth, is now His.  And He will reign forever, beginning from the moment that trumpet sounds.  If we examine what that means, based on scripture itself, it is very revealing.  One of the best illustrations we have comes from a Psalm appropriately titled "The Reign of the Lord's Anointed", so let's just walk through it.

 

Psalms 2  Why do the nations rage
    and the peoples plot in vain?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
    and the rulers take counsel together,
    against the Lord and against his Anointed, saying,
3 “Let us burst their bonds apart
    and cast away their cords from us.”

 

Now where in Revelation do we see this activity occurring, where the kings of the earth and the rulers (meaning the dragon, beast, and false prophet) conspire to defeat God the Father and Jesus?

 

Revelation 16:12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, to prepare the way for the kings from the east. 13 And I saw, coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs. 14 For they are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty. 15 (“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”) 16 And they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

 

Pretty straightforward so far, in regards to timing and consistent with the second woe, which as a reminder, is specifically stated just prior to the sounding of the 7th trumpet in chapter 11.  Continuing on with the Psalm.

 

Psalms 2:4 He who sits in the heavens laughs;
    the Lord holds them in derision.
5 Then he will speak to them in his wrath,
    and terrify them in his fury, saying,
6 “As for me, I have set my King
    on Zion, my holy hill.”

 

God is laughing at them, literally.  Now Zion, is and has always been a reference to New Jerusalem, even though many continue to confuse it with earthly Jerusalem.  In Hebrews however it is made perfectly clear to us.  When Jesus sets down on earth, it will be on the Mt. of Olives, and His first order of business is to proceed to this battle at Armageddon.

 

Psalm 2:7 I will tell of the decree:
The Lord said to me, “You are my Son;
    today I have begotten you.
8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage,
    and the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
    and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.”

 

This section reminds us of the manner in which He reigns, not gentle, but with righteous indignation.  We see this scenario played out in chapter 19 of Revelation.

 

Revelation 19:11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. 13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. 14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. 15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.

 

Psalms 2:10 Now therefore, O kings, be wise;
    be warned, O rulers of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear,
    and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son,
    lest he be angry, and you perish in the way,
    for his wrath is quickly kindled.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

 

The Psalm concludes by pointing out the exact thing Paul tells us, sudden destruction.  His wrath is quickly kindled, and once it is He comes with a firm hand, a rod of iron.  This is His reign from beginning to end.  It does not allow for some extended period of time, and it does not allow for your chronology.

 

On 7/25/2020 at 12:23 AM, not an echo said:

So, as I said, I see the 7th Trumpet as heralding the period of which this brief overview is given.  Then, everything related to this is expounded on in chapters 12-20.

 

I'm sorry to have to disagree with you on this, having already covered the opening declaration let's just review the other specifics mentioned as a result of the 7th trumpet and then compare which chapters actually deal with the material.

 

Revelation 11:16 And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying,

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
    who is and who was,
for you have taken your great power
    and begun to reign.
18 The nations raged,
    but your wrath came,
    and the time for the dead to be judged,
and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints,
    and those who fear your name,
    both small and great,
and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.”

 

Verse 17 deals with the information from the opening declaration we already covered, but just a quick reminder of how this goes down, the beginning of His reign, here is what chapter 19 states.

 

Revelation 19:11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war.

 

This points out to us, that He leaves heaven, with the armies of heaven following Him out a few verses later, and immediately proceeds to battle once He arrives on earth.  This is in direct opposition to any notion there is some sort of delay, especially years.  In verse 18 we see a phrase that should be freshly familiar from Psalm 2, the nations raged, which was how the Psalm opened, but His wrath came, as in past tense.

The time for the dead to be judged is next, we find that in chapter 20, rewards for the prophets and saints chapter 21.  So what we actually see here, is that this passage from the seventh trumpet speaks specifically to events in chapters 19, 20, and 21.  How you get chapter 12-20 I have no idea, because it simply doesn't address any of those in that material.

Chapter 12 gives us a brief history of past events to identify the symbolic characters of the chapter, but the contents of the chapter by and large specifically address the first woe, 5th trumpet, from chapter 9.  It also addresses the 3 1/2 year period which is discussed also in chapters 11, and 13. 

Chapter 13 addresses the two beasts, and the 3 1/2 year period known as the great tribulation in its entirety.

Chapter 14 covers first the faithful remnant of Israel, symbolized by the 144,000 redeemed from the earth, and who from the moment they are redeemed are said to follow the Lamb wherever He goes.  Then you get the messages from the three angels, first that the hour of His judgement has come, and second that Babylon has fallen.  So what ties all of this together, where do we see this information?

Babylon falls in a single hour, a fact that is repeated within chapter 18 numerous times, so naturally, what would immediately follow is the detail that it has indeed fallen.  And where do we find this within the specific judgements mentioned in Revelation?

 

Revelation 16:17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” 18 And there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, and a great earthquake such as there had never been since man was on the earth, so great was that earthquake. 19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath.

 

So if Babylon is fallen in chapter 14, per the second angels message, how can she be draining the cup in chapter 16 at the very last bowl?  If Babylon has fallen in chapter 14, how can we then be introduced to clues regarding who she is in chapter 17, and a play by play of her destruction in chapter 18 when she fell in chapter 14 and again comes up in chapter 16 as still drinking from the cup of wrath?  How can one argue chronology in the face of such clear evidence to the contrary?

Then there is how the seventh trumpet event wraps up, watch closely what is occurring here.

 

Revelation 11:19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.

 

Now refer back up to the previous portion from chapter 16, the seventh bowl, verse 18.  Word for word, flashes of lightning, rumbling, peals of thunder, and earthquake, and heavy hail, oh yes, the end of the seventh bowl.

 

Revelation 16:21 And great hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, fell from heaven on people; and they cursed God for the plague of the hail, because the plague was so severe.

 

As I stated previously, these final events, starting with the set of 6 and 7's happen very quickly and overlapping each other, sudden destruction, as prophesied.

1 hour ago, leah777 said:

Have I understood correctly:

Watchmen are appointed by God.

They are Prophets who speak the words from God to us

They are there to watch over us and help us to see if we are straying from Gods path and similar situations.

Their warnings come from God and comply with Scriptural teachings. If they do not comply with scripture, they are not from God

They are not elite or above us.

Is that right?

 

Basically yes.  The difference between a prophet today and one from the past is that God's word is complete, so there is nothing more to add in the way of future prophecies.  Every single prognosticator that I have ever seen has eventually been proven false.  The role of a modern day prophet would be more along the lines of one who understands prophecy, not one who gives it.

As far as those who come claiming to have private revelations from God, it's a recipe for disaster.  If you examine every cult or cult leader that has come along in the last 30 years or so alone, you will see this is the formula each one used to start their group.

11 minutes ago, leah777 said:

Watchmen are prophets?

 

According to scripture, yes.  Ezekiel and Hosea both were prophets.  All the other mentions in scripture regarding watchman would be in reference to what we today would refer to as sentries, or guards, serving in a military fashion.  While their duties are similar in that a sentry reports or warns of danger, so the same is true of the prophet's role in that they specifically speak for God, and are chosen by God to deliver warnings to His people.

The measure of a prophet is also given in scripture in determining whether or not they actually speak for God.  One thing you should note concerning all the prophets of the past, they were not vague in their messages.  They warned about very specific dangers and what the consequences would be if it continued.  One other thing they never did, was to promote themselves as above the people to which they spoke, they were humble, and their grumbling was kept between them and God.

22 minutes ago, leah777 said:

How do they know they are Watchmen and that their belief that they are one comes from God?

 

Test everything against scripture, there is no single thing we are warned more about in the last days than those who claim to be prophets and are not.

Ezekiel 3:16 And at the end of seven days, the word of the Lord came to me: 17 “Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel. Whenever you hear a word from my mouth, you shall give them warning from me. 

 

Hosea 9:8  The prophet is the watchman of Ephraim with my God; yet a fowler's snare is on all his ways, and hatred in the house of his God.

On 7/22/2020 at 12:03 AM, not an echo said:

A big difference in how we are seeing things is that I see the 7th Trumpet as heralding a period of time.

 

Revelation 10: 7 but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.

 

So despite being told there is no more delay and prophecy will be fulfilled your theory says no, there is still a delay?

Despite being told He is now reigning your theory says no, not yet?

Time for judging the dead is now, but your theory says no, not yet?

This fails the test of scripture in every regard as it is in direct opposition to what we are told.

On 7/19/2020 at 12:52 AM, not an echo said:

At first, I wasn't for sure what you were getting at by "First, there is nothing prior to your third section that indicates anyone going anywhere."  I'm thinking, you must mean that if I'm seeing the first section as referring to the era of the Church, where is the evidence there of it being raptured?  Going with what I think you are meaning, I don't see Jesus' mentioning of anything concerning the rapture until He gets to what I see as the third section, in which, this becomes His entire focus.

 

Yes, that was exactly my point.  There is nothing in the section you have labeled as when the rapture occurs about any rapture or gathering.  Where you find it in your third section is where it belongs, where Jesus placed it, after the tribulation.  Your theory requires moving it without any scriptural support for doing so, which is why it should be rejected.

 

On 7/19/2020 at 12:52 AM, not an echo said:

As I see it, the chronology of The Revelation reinforces the validity of the results of my effort to rightly divide the Olivet Discourse.

 

I think it is a mistake to build your theory around Revelation being chronological, and I am still waiting for you to address what results from the 7th trumpet.

 

On 7/19/2020 at 12:52 AM, not an echo said:

Concisely, we know that many parallels have been made between the opening section of the Olivet Discourse and the first four seals of The Revelation.

 

We know this?  Based on what exactly?

 

On 7/19/2020 at 12:52 AM, not an echo said:

Next, what I refer to as Jesus' Sign Return is what the entirety of the last section concerns, and it easily belongs with the 6th Seal.  By this sequence in The Revelation, the possibility of my placement of the third section is shown to have solid merit. 

 

It actually doesn't have solid merit, and until you address the known events and the timing of those in scripture, such as the three woes, then you still have not shown it.

 

On 7/19/2020 at 12:52 AM, not an echo said:

This leaves us with what Jesus has to say relating to Daniel's 70th Week.  Using Matthew's account, it is elementary to see that 24:15-28 relates to this.

 

Well, again here we disagree, because clearly to me based on scripture and history, the 70th week (for certain the first half of the week) has already occurred.  If you would be so kind, please explain the passage below and specifically, why the desolation is not spoken in future tense.

 

Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! 38 See, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

 

On 7/19/2020 at 12:52 AM, not an echo said:

Consider afresh the opening verse of this section and my note:

 15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) (meaning, whoso readeth the book of Daniel, let him understand)

 

Maybe what is being overlooked by people is rather obvious, and would explain quite a bit if it were ackowledged.

 

Daniel 9:26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.

 

One thing the reader should understand is that desolations is plural, not singular.

 

On 7/19/2020 at 12:52 AM, not an echo said:

It is well past the 6th Seal/Sign Return of Christ, as shown in Revelation 6:12-7:17, that we see the little book of Daniel open in Revelation 10 (compare Rev. 10:2 with Dan. 12:4, 8-10). 

 

I couldn't disagree with this speculation more.  For one, Daniel is not a little book, and for two, Revelation 10 speaks of a little scroll, not a book.  This entire premise is not based on scripture at all, therefore it fails the "test" of scripture.

 

On 7/19/2020 at 12:52 AM, not an echo said:

Interestingly, we see the first evidences of Daniel's prophesied 70th Week in Revelation 11:2-3, with the mentioning of two 3-1/2 year time periods.

 

I disagree, all of the 3 1/2 year periods specified in Revelation are the same 3 1/2 year period of time.  The two witnesses will be present in conjunction with the reign of the beast and will in fact be to offset him.  This is why it is specified that no one can harm these two witnesses, including the beast, until their time ends, just 3.5 days before his own time expires.  This chapter is also linked directly to the 6th trumpet, 2nd woe, and all three woes occur within the last 3 1/2 years.  The three woes, by definition, are the very heart of what makes this the great tribulation.

Also, as I pointed out previously, your timing on this does not agree with the three gospel accounts, particularly it directly clashes with Luke's account per the timing.  You section off these three accounts in segments, so compare them all side by side and explain how these exact things occur at different times.  Not to mention the last verse of Luke's segment matches exactly with Revelation 11.

 

Matthew 24:15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath.

 

Mark 13:14 “But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not to be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down, nor enter his house, to take anything out, 16 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 17 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 18 Pray that it may not happen in winter. 

 

Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. 23 Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

 

Revelation 11:2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months. 3 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”

 

In both Matthew and Mark's accounts, they specify that this time period was defined as the "great tribulation" per Jesus.  I think that adequately dispels your assertion that this time period is not the same 3.5 year period as the others mentioned in Revelation.

 

On 7/19/2020 at 12:52 AM, not an echo said:

Consider:

  1   And there was given me a reed like unto a rod:  and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure THE TEMPLE OF GOD, and the altar, and THEM THAT WORSHIP therein.

A couple of things in this verse really need to be noted.  One, "the temple of God" is in existence here.

 

Indeed, but you haven't explained how you come to the conclusion it is referring to a building!  Considering we know based on scripture, from our New Testament, that the temple of God has for several millennia been within those who are His.

 

I Corinthians 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, 20 for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

 

Have you considered this is probably why no measurements are given?

 

On 7/19/2020 at 12:52 AM, not an echo said:

Concerning your statement, "Another major concern is your attempt to separate Jew from Gentile when the very people He is speaking to are His disciples, which are the equivalent of the church," I believe I am in agreement with you on this.  My seeing the first section of Jesus' discourse as pertaining primarily to the era of the Church has nothing to do with how I see a saved Jew.  Saved Jews are just as much a part of the body of Christ as I am, and we are brothers in Christ!  Whole brothers (and sisters!) by blood .  NO DIVISION BY RACE!  On the thing of the second section of Jesus' discourse pertaining primarily to the Israelites, I'm talking unsaved Israelites.  I'm sure you are not seeing unsaved Jews as being a part of the body of Christ.

 

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

 

Considering we have been chosen from the foundation of the world, and He has continued to preserve a remnant of Israel according to His foreknowledge, they are no more exempt from the inheritance promised from the beginning, and will not be left out of anything that any other believer is part of.  REMEMBER what you have learned, the last shall be first and the first shall be last, God is no respector of persons.

 

On 7/19/2020 at 12:52 AM, not an echo said:

But 144,000 Jews will be saved, when they get that saving glimpse of Jesus at His Sign Return. 

 

This is another instance where your theory departs from what is known and therefore it collides with your time frame.

 

Revelation 14  Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps, 3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, 5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.

 

How does this align with what you presented?

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

Wingnut-, as I see it, if you ever do see it, you won't ever be able to unsee it.  Now, maybe similar would be true if I ever saw the layout of your view.  But I haven't...

 

Well, until the chronology issue is addressed it would be difficult to go into too much detail, but I did touch on some of the aspects of timing in a post you haven't gotten to yet.  What I'm trying to avoid is throwing too much on the fire at once, right now we already have multiple topics under discussion.  I don't have any problem answering any question you might have, but right now we are still circling chronology, and also how we view the future of the Israeli people.  These are pretty large topics on their own merit, but if you want to delve into something else, feel free.

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

Concerning the disciples asking Jesus very specific questions, Jesus did not always answer questions in accord with how they were asked.  My mind goes to His dialogue with the rich young ruler (Matt. 19:16-22).  Now, whereas we might not know just how to ask the best and most appropriate questions, Jesus knows just how to give the best and most appropriate answers.

 

I agree with you, and I am not asserting that the questions have to be answered in the order they were asked, what I am asserting is that the questions would be answered with the correct response.  In regards to the specific details regarding the information He shared with them, it is not done in any specific order, which I already have pointed out in a previous post you haven't gotten to yet.  This is precisely the issue that arises when you are dividing things up by entire segments of scripture, each line must be accounted for in all three gospel accounts.

I think from what I reveal with scripture in that post not long ago, is when you state that Matthew 24:4-14 applies to what you refer to as the "church era", Luke clarifies that these very things precede what Matthew and Mark refer to as sorrows or birth pains, respectively.  The point is, the "church era" began with the disciples and continues to this very day, and that after discussing all the various aspects of the tribulation period, Jesus then tells them the WHEN regarding His sign.  In all three accounts it is AFTER all the tribulation that He disclosed, including the AoD and the period of time He defines as the "great tribulation".

The elephant in the room that you cannot avoid, is that following verse 29 there are no more references to tribulation of any kind, and that would be because it all occurred before the statement, "immediately after the tribulation of those days".  Everything that follows in chapter 24 and 25 relates to His coming and what transpires after His coming.

 

 

1 hour ago, not an echo said:

Concerning their first question ("when shall these things be?"), whereas I see Jesus' answer greatly transcending their specific question, I can also see His answer relating to it.  We know that the first time the temple was destroyed, it was on account of wars.  And Jesus' words, "For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom" would have certainly rung in their ears when Jerusalem came under attack.  But now, in retrospect, we can see that what Jesus answers them (in the first section/vss. 4-14) transcends their time in a Divinely remarkable way---to the tune of 20 centuries worth of remarkable ways!

 

And yet there are specific things said to them that they would, and did, experience personally, there is no getting around it, and as I have shown with scripture it has nothing to do with the order in which things were said, so it cannot be sectioned away.  Each event must be examined on its own merit to determine the order of things.  While one is free to speculate that historical events may repeat themselves in the future, it should never affect our recognition of a prophetic message being fulfilled.  This is a dangerous and slippery slope for any Christian to take, because ultimately it undermines the reliability of scripture.  For example, if I were to tell you that you need to keep your eyes open for the birth of the Messiah, what would your response be?

In regards to your bringing up the attack on Jerusalem, and how they may have viewed it, I would like to remind you of a subtle difference between Luke and the other two accounts.

 

Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. 23 Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

 

Luke's account varies from Matthew and Mark in that the first verse of this section from the other two are in reference to the AoD rather than Jerusalem being surrounded by armies.  How the disciples still living at the time viewed this I cannot say, but it is interesting that Luke, who was not an apostle, gives the different viewpoint in this regard.  Whether they were aware of John's Revelation at this point or not I cannot say, but if we assume they were not then it is most likely they would have believed this event took place in their time.

The reason Revelation is significant is because in chapter 11 John discusses these events, the trampling of Jerusalem by the Gentiles, and the timing related to the two witnesses.  There is no historical account or version that can address the two witnesses, their 3 1/2 year ministry in Jerusalem, their subsequent death, and their bodies rising after 3 1/2 days as they are called up to heaven, so it is safe to assume this is still future.

 

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

it seems to me that it is in our face that Matthew 24:4-14 concerns the era of the Church, verses 15-28 concerns Daniel's 70th Week, and verses 29-51 concerns the very day of the event that will dissect the era of the Church from Daniel's 70th Week. 

 

Again this conflicts with itself, and some of your own statements in regards to it.  For example, the entire passage from verses 4-28 contain the same events in both of the sections you are separating from each other and they also make distinctions in timing from the very same passages you are separating into their own group.

 

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hey, I got to go change oil in my truck before the day gets away from me.  Hope to be back later.  Whew, I got a lot of catching up to do.  If you would just slow down a bit...

 

  Sorry, I answer when I have the available time to do so and would just encourage you to do the same.  I'm enjoying the discussion, so I look forward to your replies.

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

I'm thinking that I may understand what you are saying here, just not sure.  Concisely, I see Matthew 24:29-31 as being the event that will occur with the opening of the 6th Seal, and then Jesus' Second Coming for the Battle of Armageddon and His Millennial Reign being at least seven years later.  What I think you are saying is that Matthew 24:29-31 shows "the sign of the Son of Man" appearing in heaven, after which "they will see the Son of Man coming" for the Battle of Armageddon and His Millennial Reign.  If this is what you are saying, I guess my first question concerns what kind of interval of time you see between the appearance of "the sign" and His coming? 

 

I'm glad that you are starting to understand my view of things, that certainly helps with the discussion.  I have the advantage of understanding the pre-trib theory in that I once also believed that would be the case, although in some circumstances your viewpoint deviates so at times there is still some confusion on my part.  The biggest hurdle we have is the chronology issue in regards to Revelation, so what you have to do when considering what I say is realize that there is no chronology to Revelation presented.  Interestingly enough, even when I was pre-trib, I have never found Revelation chronological, so it isn't something I can relate to.

As far as the time gap between the sign of His coming and His actual arrival on the Mt. of Olives there is no specific length of time given in scripture.  I am not one for making predictions, but based on my overall understanding the time required between will come down to factors that are unknown to us.  What I mean by that is this, the travel time associated with His coming relates to the amount of time required for the enemy forces to gather for Armageddon.  Depending on who that includes and their physical location, available means of travel at that time, etc., the length of time would vary on that basis.  I do not believe we are talking about a lengthy amount of time at all, based on what I read in scripture those involved will be from that region of the world.

 

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

Also, I'm not sure if we have discussed this, but do you see Christ's appearance with the opening of the 6th Seal as also being His Second Coming that is given an account of in Revelation 19:11-21?

 

The events of the 6th seal precede the sign of His coming, by how much time there is no certainty as scripture does not say.  The passage only records the reaction of those on the earth as a result of the sun, moon, and stars being affected.  Could their reaction also be associated with the appearance of His sign in the sky?  I would say yes, I believe there are enough scriptural references to associate the appearance of His sign with their response, based on the information from the Olivet discourse.

In regards to the events directly relating to His arrival as described in chapter 19, my answer is yes, this is what His coming is all about.  Keep in mind, when Jesus first told the disciples He would come again, He was here on earth.  When one tells you that they will "come again", they are referring to the location in which the statement is made.  So if for example, you are invited over to a friends house and as you are leaving he asks you to come again in the future, he is inviting you to his house again in the future, not some other location.

 

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

Realize that as I see things, the next time Jesus is seen by anyone---whether according to your interpretation or mine---He will most certainly be seen "with power and great glory."

 

Amen to that.

3 hours ago, not an echo said:

Concerning your opening paragraph, for clarification, I see the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30) as occurring just after His opening of the 6th Seal. 

 

Great!  Thanks for clarifying that point for me, it appears then that we agree on this.

 

3 hours ago, not an echo said:

I see this as being especially a "sign" for the Israelites, during which 144,000 will be saved.  Note the link, "all the tribes" of Matt.24:30 with "all the tribes" of Rev. 7:4, not to mention all the other prophetic points of convergence.

Concerning your last paragraph, as I see it, what "immediately follows the period in which the beast has carried out his 3 1/2 year war on the saints" (spoken of in Matt. 24:15-26), is His Second Coming, which He speaks to in the very next verses...

 27  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west;  so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 28  For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

 

Ok, here we are having a complete breakdown in understanding.  Perhaps I am just not understanding you, so based on what you stated, here are my objections.

1.  You state above that verses 27 and 28 come AFTER verse 30, but clearly numerically speaking you have that backwards.

2.  You seem to be suggesting that the sign of His coming is specifically for the Israelites, are you suggesting that if this brilliant light appears in the sky ( and is the only light in the sky based on the events of the 6th seal having preceded it) that only one race of people are going to notice?

To expand on why this doesn't hold up under scrutiny, please refer back to the events of the 6th seal itself and the results of it.  I think it is pretty obvious from the response of the earth's inhabitants, that the tribes of the earth mentioned in the Olivet discourse include all people.

 

Revelation 6:15 Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, 16 calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

 

3 hours ago, not an echo said:

I see the "tribulation" Jesus speaks of in verse 29 not as being "the period in which the beast has carried out his 3 1/2 year war on the saints" but rather, the tribulation of the Church era, effected by the activity of the four horsemen of the Church era---what Jesus spoke of in the opening section of His Discourse (Matt. 24:4-14).

 

Ok, so my response to this is quite simple, the adherence to dispensationalism often has the effect of blinding one to the evidence of things they already know, so that they can continue to adhere to dispensationalism.  Here is what happens when one tries to divide the Olivet discourse using dispensationalism and negating the fact that Jesus is speaking to a specific audience.  There are other witnesses, who include different details in their witness of the Olivet discourse.  Just compare line by line, what Matthew recorded versus what Luke recorded in regards to this section of the Olivet discourse.

 

Matthew 24:9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

 

Luke 21:10 Then he said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, and in various places famines and pestilences. And there will be terrors and great signs from heaven. 12 But before all this they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors for my name's sake. 13 This will be your opportunity to bear witness. 14 Settle it therefore in your minds not to meditate beforehand how to answer, 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which none of your adversaries will be able to withstand or contradict. 16 You will be delivered up even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and some of you they will put to death. 17 You will be hated by all for my name's sake. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish. 19 By your endurance you will gain your lives.

 

There are two important aspects to account for from these two passages, first, the fact that Luke makes it clear that some of these events are very clearly, directly specific to the actual people sitting in front of Jesus at the time.  They are being told that THEY will be persecuted and some put to death, and how to deal with that when it occurs.  Secondly, there is specific timing given as to when those specifics are going to occur which I highlighted above.  This reveals that how you are trying to divide the answer to the questions by sectioning off entire passages into ages is fatally flawed.  You have to account for all the information.

So when you take what Matthew says in verses 9 and 10, you can see he is referring to the same things Luke states in verses 12-19.  And according to Luke, these things take place prior to what He says takes place in verses 10 and 11.  Matthew discusses nation against nation, the earthquakes, famines, etc. in verses 6 and 7, and refers to it as the beginning of sorrows or birth pains.  This comes AFTER, even though it is mentioned before.  You have mentioned rightly dividing scripture, and all I can say is that must begin by adhering to the order of events that Jesus tells us as opposed to dividing things up based on dispensational leanings.  The segments in question are not in the order you are dividing them up in.

 

3 hours ago, not an echo said:

Of course, we know that a lot of controversy revolves around Matthew 24:29-31.  If it was explicitly pointed out that the tribulation (thlipsin) Jesus spoke of in verse 29 was the tribulation (thlipsin) He had just spoke of in verse 9 and not the great tribulation (megalE thlipsis) of verse 21, I submit that a lot of the controversy surrounding this passage would quickly subside.

 

I would submit the issue that causes all the controversy is dispensationalism, mainly because it ignores the immediate audience to whom Jesus is speaking, and also because it opposes the very questions being asked in favor of splitting things up according to factors that are irrelevant to the entire context of the Olivet discourse.  While it leads people to warm and fuzzy conclusions, it simply reminds me of the biblical truth that people in the latter days will be drawn to ear tickling doctrines in favor of reality.  All of this is consistent with history as well of course, in that the Israelites were quick to dismiss what the prophets had to say in favor of anyone who was willing to tell them the prophets were mistaken.

 

3 hours ago, not an echo said:

Concerning your statement, "You already recognize that the 6th seal is at the end of the great tribulation based on your statements above since you understand these two passages speak to the same thing," this is not the case at all, but I am taking it that you just did not realize this yet.  Though you may yet disagree (and I'm not offended in any way if you do), I see Matthew 24:29-31 as being the event of Christ's "Sign" Appearance, the fulfillment of which will take place with the opening of the 6th Seal.

 

Again, we differ greatly on our understanding of what a sign is.  I understand that pre-trib needs to create an event to account for something that does not appear in scripture, which would be an extra visit by the Lord, so while it is creative in that regard, I still reject the notion because it fails to meet the "test" of scripture.  A "sign" is given as direction, it points you to an event, it is not an event in and of itself.

To put it in modern day perspective, imagine you decide to take a road trip to Chicago for example.  As you travel down the highway, you will occasionally come across "signs" on the road that may for example state, Chicago 266 miles.  It wouldn't occur to you to pull over at this sign and start celebrating your arrival in Chicago, because you are not in Chicago, the sign is merely pointing you in a direction, not telling you that you have arrived at the destination.

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello again wingnut-, 

Been another long and full week for me, how about you? 

 

Good to see you again.  I guess by my standards it was a busy week, in that I had more issues to deal with than normal which will make next week more eventful as well.

 

3 hours ago, not an echo said:

As I see it, Jesus' use of the parable of the fig tree ("and all the trees"/Lk. 21:29) in His Olivet Discourse pertains exclusively to what He has just been saying, and especially what He has just said concerning the event of His "sign" appearance (Matt. 24:29-31).

 

While I agree that it has to do with what He has been saying, where we part ways is that you are still not separating the two questions that were asked.  The entire Olivet discourse is a response to those two specific questions, when will be the sign of His coming, and when is the end of the age?  So the sign of His coming stands on its own merit, and He tells us precisely when that occurs by a sequence of events.  The end of the age is the second question, and that is addressed by the mention of the fig tree, which He also identifies the when of that by placing it in sequence as well.  The understanding comes through His consistent use of the analogy via parables during His earthly ministry.

In regards to the end of the age specifically, Jesus had already disclosed this information to them, stating exactly when the end of the age would occur and its relation to the harvest of the earth amongst other specifics.

 

Matthew 13:36 Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” 37 He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. 40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

 

3 hours ago, not an echo said:

I'm not seeing how His statement, "When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves" (Matt. 24:32) here represents "the harvest of the earth." 

 

Ok, so here are the basic facts regarding a fig tree, and when the fruit is ripe to harvest.

1.  You can tell that it is time for harvesting figs when the fruit necks wilt and the fruits hang down.  At this time, the branches appear "tender" in that they bend under the weight of the ripe fruit.

2. The fig tree is one of the last trees to bud in the spring and so when it's leaves are budding we know that summer is just around the corner.

3. In mild winter and very long, warm summer regions, a fig tree may ripen two crops in one season, the first in early summer, the second late summer or fall. In cooler summer regions, a fig tree will ripen one crop in late summer.

 

Israel is a region that falls in that first group which harvests figs starting in early April and lasting typically until late August.  So when you understand the harvest cycle of the fig tree, particularly in regards to Israel, as well as the natural parameters of the tree itself, you can see how it lays out precisely to every detail what Jesus describes in the Olivet discourse.

13 hours ago, Uriah said:

 

 

In the future please use the video forum and link the video from there.  I have approved it and will link it into the thread for you this time.  The reason we have the video section is so the video is embedded on the site and removes all the other ads and things that often appear on youtube links that may be unsuitable for the site.  Thanks  

 

 

 

 

18 hours ago, not an echo said:

I had aimed to spend some more time sharing yesterday, but I ended up at the ER with my son because he dislocated his shoulder.  It was awful, till they got it back in place!, then it was all of a sudden a lot better!  Like the wheels of justice, things in an emergency room can sure move slooow.  Got home this morning about 4:00 am.  He's pretty tender today but is going to be just fine. 

 

Sorry to hear about your son, I dislocated my shoulder in my youth and dealt with issues from it since.  Just before last Christmas I ended up having shoulder surgery, so decades after the fact it is much better now.

 

18 hours ago, not an echo said:

Well, wingnut-, I believe you (as most others do) see Matthew 24:29-31 as being the time of Christ's return for the Battle of Armageddon, commonly referred to as His Second Coming. 

 

For me it is quite simple, everything I believe starts and ends with what Jesus said regarding a matter.  The context of the Olivet discourse is very clear, the disciples privately ask Him WHEN the sign of His coming will be, and everything He says is in response to that question as well as their question regarding the end of the age.  This is the context under which the chapter should be read if one desires to reach the proper conclusion.

In verses 4-8 He warns about false prophets, wars, famines, and earthquakes, concluding with the statement the end is not yet and these things are the beginning of sorrows, or birth pains.

In verses 9-14 He tells them they will be persecuted and executed.  He speaks of the falling away, the increase in lawlessness, and that the gospel will be proclaimed to all nations before the end comes.

In verses 15-27 He talks about seeing the AoD, and defines the specifics that follow as the "great tribulation", many of which were already mentioned previously as well.  Then He says this.

 

Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

 

So everything said up to this point precedes what you and I agree on as the events of the 6th seal.

 

Matthew 24: 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

Once the sixth seal is open, THEN His sign appears in heaven, meaning it is not the events of the 6th seal, but something that follows it.  This is the WHEN, the very question the disciples asked, and this is His answer.  I don't pretend to be an expert myself, but Jesus certainly is, and I choose to believe Him over anyone else's theory.  After all, I have waged my eternal fate on accepting everything He said or did as absolute truth.  I would encourage others to read the Olivet discourse for themselves in the proper context of Him answering specific questions, and then ask themselves if it makes sense He gave them bad information.  Does anyone really think that in responding to WHEN, He would tell them the wrong sequence?

 

18 hours ago, not an echo said:

Having seen your most recent post, I am taking it that you don't see any of Daniel's 70 Week's prophecy as being left to be fulfilled.  Am I understanding you correctly?

 

If you can, try to examine Daniel's prophecy on its own merit, and put aside all thoughts other than the prophecy in question. 

 

Daniel 9:26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. 27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

 

So, just a few questions for you.

1.  Has the anointed one been cut off?

2.  Was the city and the sanctuary destroyed?

3.  Have the sacrifice and offering been ended?

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

The basic distinctions that I make between the era of the Church and the Israelite Nation are in tune with the basic distinctions that can be made between things relating to the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.  For example, as the Israelite Nation was a focal point of the Old Covenant, the Christian Church is a focal point of the New Covenant, and everything about either stems from God's promise to Abraham to bless all nations through his seed.  In other words, the fulfilling of God's promise to Abraham connects with the establishment of the Nation in the Old Testament days and it continues with the establishment of the Church in these New Testament days.

 

It may just be the wording, but to clarify this distinction you speak of for anyone reading I want to clarify with some subtle, but important differences.  The Old Covenant was regarding the law, not the nation of Israel through which the law was first given.  As was proven historically, the law was inadequate and all who lived by the law were destined to perish because we are all incapable of keeping it.

The promise to Abraham was fulfilled by Jesus, when He gave His life for all mankind, thereby becoming the blessing as promised in Genesis 12 "in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” upon His resurrection.  The fulfillment of the promise, and the law and prophets by Jesus is the New Covenant, and He is the link between the two.

 

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

There is coming a day---and it may be today---when Christ will return for His Church.  Relating to the Israelite nation, there is a 70 Weeks prophecy written of in the book of Daniel (9:24-27), of which 69 Weeks have been fulfilled.  The 70th Week has not been fulfilled.

 

I do not agree with dispensationalism, so I have to disagree with your conclusion above.  Biblically, and historically speaking, it is a rather dubious and unsupported conclusion to say that the 70 weeks of Daniel have not been fulfilled.  The overwhelming evidence simply does not support the theory.

 

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

The thing of the Church being raptured prior to Daniel's 70th Week is a matter of the fulfilling of Bible prophecy, and has less to do with the nature of the tribulation that will be experienced and more to do with what has been prophesied concerning the Israelite nation.

 

What prophecy are you referring to in which a removal is spoken of?  In regards to the prophecy I see, the remnant of Israel is not going to experience the tribulation you predict.

 

Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.

 

The prophet Hosea describes this event as follows.

 

Hosea 2:14 “Therefore, behold, I will allure her,
    and bring her into the wilderness,
    and speak tenderly to her.
15 And there I will give her her vineyards
    and make the Valley of Achor a door of hope.
And there she shall answer as in the days of her youth,
    as at the time when she came out of the land of Egypt.

16 “And in that day, declares the Lord, you will call me ‘My Husband,’ and no longer will you call me ‘My Baal.’ 17 For I will remove the names of the Baals from her mouth, and they shall be remembered by name no more. 18 And I will make for them a covenant on that day with the beasts of the field, the birds of the heavens, and the creeping things of the ground. And I will abolish the bow, the sword, and war from the land, and I will make you lie down in safety. 19 And I will betroth you to me forever. I will betroth you to me in righteousness and in justice, in steadfast love and in mercy. 20 I will betroth you to me in faithfulness. And you shall know the Lord.

 

Isaiah also confirms what Hosea had to say, but one important aspect of the above is the final segment I posted, in which the word betrothed is used.  The fact that these individuals are His bride it creates serious issues with your timing in which the bride is gathered.  Either the bride is one body, or Jesus is a polygamist and this bride in most pre-trib scenarios is shunned from the marriage supper.

In regards to the Jewish people as a whole, there are two groups in this time.  The remnant that God has promised to preserve (which we see described in the passages I posted), and there is the group that are not His, as shown in the prophesy of Zechariah.

 

Zechariah 13:8 In the whole land, declares the Lord,
    two thirds shall be cut off and perish,
    and one third shall be left alive.
9 And I will put this third into the fire,
    and refine them as one refines silver,
    and test them as gold is tested.
They will call upon my name,
    and I will answer them.
I will say, ‘They are my people’;
    and they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”

 

So 2/3 of the people will be cut off, and they perish.  I would hope that given the hundreds of examples in scripture regarding what it means to be cut off are enough clarification that it doesn't require posting them.  The meaning is clarified well enough just in this passage regarding the declaration that the 1/3 He brings through the fire are called "His people."

On 7/4/2020 at 1:16 PM, not an echo said:

Well, wingnut-, I didn't mean to write a pamphlet, I just got started and have enjoyed a little time of reminiscing. 

 

It's all good brother, I've enjoyed getting to know more about you.  I realized how late it was last night so I stopped short of responding to everything as I intended, so I want to address some of what I opted out of last night.  Right now as it stands, I feel the biggest hurdle is to address the chronology issue.  I know you haven't had time yet to respond to my posts regarding the 7th trumpet so while that remains pending I wanted to discuss the three woes as they also provide clear markers for us to indicate sequence of events.

 

Revelation 8:13 Then I looked, and I heard an eagle crying with a loud voice as it flew directly overhead, “Woe, woe, woe to those who dwell on the earth, at the blasts of the other trumpets that the three angels are about to blow!”

 

So following the fourth trumpet we get this information that tells us the three woes directly correlate to the 5th, 6th, and 7th trumpets.  So we know that what occurs with each one of these trumpets correlates to the woes, but there are also other passages that speak to the woes as well.

 

Revelation 9  And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit.

 

Stars are used as symbols for angels in scripture, and here we see John telling us that the star is a "he", and this being is going to unlock the abyss.  When he does, some unsavory things will come out of it, and we are also told that their king is Abaddon, or Apollyon, the destroyer.  I would consider that it is not speculation to deduce this is a reference to satan.

 

Revelation 12:7 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, 8 but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. 11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. 12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”

 

In chapter 12 we see that at the point satan and his angels are cast out of heaven and down to the earth, it is a woe to the earth and sea, which means this is one of our three woes.  It just so happens to correlate perfectly with the first woe, when an angel fallen from heaven to earth goes down and unlocks the abyss.  This to me connects the timing of the first woe and the fifth trumpet to this occurrence in chapter 12, our first woe.

Chapter 12 ends, and chapter 13 begins with the dragon standing on the shore of the sea, and our introduction to the beast out of the sea in chapter 13.  This is what leads up to the period of the great tribulation, the final 3 1/2 year period which is outlined in both chapter 12 and 13.

 

Revelation 9:12 The first woe has passed; behold, two woes are still to come.

13 Then the sixth angel blew his trumpet, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar before God, 14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.”

 

So the first woe is set off by the fifth trumpet, which results with the devil and his angels being cast down to earth, this is that woe which ushers in the reign of the beast and the establishment of his kingdom.  The sixth trumpet, which is the second woe, does not come for nearly three and a half years after the first woe, near the very end of the great tribulation period.  These final events all occur right on top of each other, sudden destruction.

Now the four angels related to the sixth trumpet have been waiting for a specific, day, hour, month, and year to be released with this massive army that will kill a third of mankind with three plagues, fire, smoke, and sulfur.  This is the second woe, and we also see in chapter 11 that the events occurring there relate to specific timing with the sixth trumpet, or second woe.

 

Revelation 11:12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them. 13 And at that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14 The second woe has passed; behold, the third woe is soon to come.

 

So in chapter 11 we are told about the two witnesses and their 3 1/2 year period of time in Jerusalem.  They are killed 3 1/2 days prior to the verse I started with, and in verse 12 we see them gathered in the clouds with everyone else.  At the very same hour this is taking place we have the great earthquake occurring, Jerusalem falling apart, and the only group in the entire book of Revelation that repents and turns to God occurs at this time, after the gathering.  This group accounts for your millennial individuals, everyone else is wicked and will perish.  The second woe which is the sixth trumpet ends at the conclusion of chapter 11, and the third woe comes quickly.

 

 

 

On 7/4/2020 at 2:33 AM, not an echo said:

I wish I could fully agree wingnut-, but what you refer to as "the facts" I see a little differently.  According to my interpretations...

1.  It is things at the time of Christ's Sign Return for the rapture of the Church that will be just like they were in Noah's day.  Interestingly, interpreted this way, everything that Jesus speaks about in Matthew 24:29-51, Mark 13:24-37, and Luke 21:25-36 connects with the very day of the rapture.  Everything.

 

 You are creating an event out of a sign.  A sign is simple, they point us in a direction.  The sign of His coming is what the disciples asked about, and He tells them exactly where it will occur in a sequenced order of events.  If He were coming more than once, don't you think He would have said so to His faithful followers?  In all three gospel accounts, He specifies that His coming is when we are gathered.

 

On 7/4/2020 at 2:33 AM, not an echo said:

2.  I believe I agree with your statement here, but what you have in parenthesis kinda throws me.  As I understand your position, don't you mean, This negates the idea of a 7 year period of time to PRECEDE it?

 

No, I mean it negates a 7 year period to follow it.  7 years is not "sudden" by any definition.

 

On 7/4/2020 at 2:33 AM, not an echo said:

3.  Christ's Sign Return and His Second Coming do not occur at or near the same moment.  Sometimes they are mentioned separately in Scripture. 

 

They are never separated in scripture, there is not one example of this.  If you believe there are any examples, please share the scripture.

 

On 7/4/2020 at 2:33 AM, not an echo said:

In Matthew's account of the Olivet Discourse, Jesus speaks of His Second Coming in 24:26-28 and then of His Sign Return in 24:29-31. 

 

Matthew 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

They are not separated, and the sign is not the sun, moon, and stars, they occurred in the previous verse.  After that occurs, THEN His sign appears, the people on earth mourn because of it, and they see Him COMING.  You are trying to insert a 7 year period of time into a sequence that Jesus does not allow for.

 

On 7/4/2020 at 2:33 AM, not an echo said:

In The Revelation, Jesus' Sign Return is shown to occur in 6:12-7:17 (with the opening of the 6th Seal, which corresponds to Matt. 24:29-31) and then His Second Coming is shown to occur in 19:11-21 (which corresponds to Matt. 24:26-28).

 

The 6th seal events are not the sign, refer back to Jesus' own words and you can see that His sign comes after the events of the sixth seal.

 

On 7/4/2020 at 2:33 AM, not an echo said:

In II Thessalonians 2, Christ's Sign Return for the gathering of the Church is spoken of in verse one, and then His Second Coming (i.e., the Day of Christ/KJV) is spoken of in verses two and eight.

 

II Thessalonians 2  Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,

 

You are changing what scripture says to construct a theory.  The verse in II Thessalonians says nothing about a "sign" return because there is no such thing.  Paul specifically says His coming, and our gathering.  His coming and our gathering are then combined into what Paul refers to as " a day" in verse 2, which is a common literary device you will find in every book or story ever written.  As a writer I implement this myself, as does any writer.  In each instance you do this, you are attempting to insert a 7 year time gap in between consecutive verses, or in regard to the Olivet discourse you are trying to insert a 7 year time gap into the very same verse.

 

On 7/4/2020 at 2:33 AM, not an echo said:

I believe the primary purpose for Jesus' use of the example of the ark (and Lot's deliverance) was not to convey the nature of the deliverance, but the importance of being ready for the deliverance.  This is the tenor of everything that is said relating to the period of the Day of the Lord, which includes Daniel's 70th Week.  I don't see anyway that Scripture can be correctly interpreted to fit a post-trib deliverance.  Simply put, such to me is as difficult as it would have been for us, if we had lived in Noah's day, to be considering whether our boarding of the ark would be pre-flood, mid-flood, or post-flood.

 

First I want to clarify I am not post-trib, you're reading that into my responses but it is not accurate.  I am much closer to post-trib than pre-trib, but I am not in the post-trib camp as we are about an hour apart on our timing.  In regards to Noah and the ark, the inescapable truth of the matter is that if Noah or any one of his family members had fallen off of or jumped off of the ark, they would have been in trouble.  Their safety was limited to remaining on the ark, because they hadn't gone anywhere and remained on planet earth.  As for Lot and his daughters, if they had looked back like his wife did, they would have turned to salt also.  Their safety was contingent on their obedience, because again, they were still on planet earth.  The morale of both stories as I see it, is to abide in Him.

On 7/3/2020 at 5:54 PM, not an echo said:

As I see it wingnut-, considering what the two Christians faced, I don't believe spiritualizing the experience of the martyred Christian really satisfies what the word "escape" denotes or connotes.  Do you see what I mean?

 

I don't see what you mean.  What it appears to me you are saying, is that your definition of escape takes precedence over what Jesus defined it as.  When He tells the very people He is speaking to, some of you will be executed but not a hair of your head will be harmed, after saying they will be accounted worthy to escape all these things if they remain faithful, then Jesus Himself has defined what the meaning of escape is.  If it is "spiritualized" as you put it, then Jesus declared it to be.

On 7/3/2020 at 2:26 PM, not an echo said:

This also fits The Revelation's chronology of His Sign Return at the opening of the 6th Seal and His later Second Coming for the Battle of Armageddon.

 

I'm a little confused by some of your comments, in particular regarding the 6th seal, so for clarity I have to ask.  If I understand you correctly, you see the 6th seal as the rapture, so from that point you believe there are 7 years to go before His coming?  If so, what about the first five seals?

 

On 7/3/2020 at 5:35 PM, not an echo said:

Question wingnut-:  If the 7th Trumpet is the rapture trumpet, and the rapture happens "in the twinkling of an eye" at this trumpet, what is your understanding of everything that happens thereafter?

 

Ok, to answer the question first I need to clarify a few things so you understand what I believe.  First, when you say rapture, I read gathering, because that is what the word harpazo is speaking of, a very specific detail.  Another specific detail, in regards to the gathering, is that we are transformed into our glorified bodies, the resurrection.  This is what occurs in the "twinkling of an eye", our being changed to a glorified body, at the time of our gathering.

So what happens thereafter would be the Millennial Kingdom, which begins with the battle of Armageddon.  This "battle" will be over in a matter of moments based on the specifics in scripture.

 

On 7/3/2020 at 5:35 PM, not an echo said:

When you consider the brief overview of what happens after the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, you can see this expounded on for the next nine chapters.

 

When you say brief overview of what happens after the 7th trumpet, what information are you talking about?  Surely you don't mean the actual words that accompany the sounding of the 7th trumpet?

 

 

 

On 7/3/2020 at 5:35 PM, not an echo said:

I'm not really sure how you interpret the sounding of the 7th Trumpet "and what the results of this trumpet are."  I know that it is common that this trumpet is seen as being "the Last Trump" (I Cor. 15:52), "the Trump of God" (I Thess. 4:16), and the "great sound of a trumpet" (Matt. 24:31)---and I can kinda understand this.  But, there are other things that are written that point to something different and cause me to come to another conclusion. 

 

What I am referring to is what is specifically stated at the sounding of the 7th trumpet.

 

Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”

 

Right off the bat we are told that the world is now His kingdom, and He will reign forever and ever.  This is a major issue for your theory, because you believe there are still years to go under the reign of the enemy accompanied by God's judgement on what is now His own kingdom.  That's your first problem with the place this is said as far as chronology goes.

 

Revelation 11:17 saying,

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
    who is and who was,
for you have taken your great power
    and begun to reign.

 

It is reiterated again here, that His reign has begun.  Sounds like the millennial period to me.

 

Revelation 11:18 The nations raged,
    but your wrath came,
    and the time for the dead to be judged,
and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints,
    and those who fear your name,
    both small and great,
and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.”

 

Wrath came already, time for judging the dead and rewarding the prophets and saints.

 

Revelation 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

 

According to John, the time for judgement has still not taken place as late as chapter 20, and that some who will be reigning with Christ during the millennium includes those who did not worship the beast or receive his mark.

 

On 7/3/2020 at 2:26 PM, not an echo said:

Hello wingnut- (and all),

Well, it's been a long week for me.  The pandemic has resulted in my place of employment being cut to a skeleton crew and me being scheduled for 12 hour days.  I'm the most senior person, having now been there over 42 years, and things can often get quite demanding.  I'm also serving as a pastor for a little flock that means the world to me, not to mention being a family man.  I have sometimes said that I am spread so thin that one can about see through me!  Annnyway, I am glad to be able to share some again, and hopefully even get caught up on some things here at home. 

 

Hello brother, glad to see you back and well.

 

On 7/3/2020 at 2:26 PM, not an echo said:

My first thought concerning your above reply is that if John's account of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-7:17) and Matthew 24:29-31 (which I believe we are both see as describing the same event) is of the Second Coming, how does the lesson of the fig tree connect?

 

Ok, so first I want to answer your question regarding the fig tree and the connection as to what it represents, the harvest of the earth.

 

Luke 13:6 And he told this parable: “A man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. 7 And he said to the vinedresser, ‘Look, for three years now I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and I find none. Cut it down. Why should it use up the ground?’ 8 And he answered him, ‘Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and put on manure. 9 Then if it should bear fruit next year, well and good; but if not, you can cut it down.’”

 

On 7/3/2020 at 2:26 PM, not an echo said:

As I have said elsewhere, when someone is present, their return is not pending.

 

Now, as in regards to the timing, here is where we differ.  You are assigning His coming, to the sign of His coming.  The sign of His coming is telling you that His return is still pending, but very near.  Pay close attention to the exact words and the order in which they occur.

 

Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 

 

Now, the first thing is that this immediately follows the period in which the beast has carried out his 3 1/2 year war on the saints.  At that point the sun, moon, and stars go dark.  You already recognize that the 6th seal is at the end of the great tribulation based on your statements above since you understand these two passages speak to the same thing.  Jesus gives you very specific timing on this event.

 

Matthew 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

So, according to Jesus what you have is this order, great tribulation, then darkness, then appears the sign of Jesus, which we have learned in the gospels that following His resurrection He literally shines, defined as glory by the apostles.  Every eye will see Him coming because He will be the only light in the darkness from the moment He appears in the heavens until He arrives on the Mt. of Olives.  The fact that He is still coming displays clearly that He is still not present.  The gathering occurs in verse 31, indicating that He collects His sheep on His way back to earth.

 

On 7/3/2020 at 2:26 PM, not an echo said:

Of course, if by "all these things" one takes this to mean everything that Jesus said from Matthew 24:4-31, I can kinda understand, but "all these things" certainly seems (to me, anyway) to include verses 29-31, whether exclusive of what He said prior, or inclusive.

 

As I pointed out above, the timing is very specific that this occurs after the tribulation of those days, which would include "all these things" as the disciples asked Him very specific questions.

 

Matthew 24:3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

 

Three questions, when will these things be?  Regarding the destruction of the temple.  What will be the sign of your coming?  And what marks the end of the age?  Now the problem as I see it, is you are attempting to separate His answers to these questions with unknown qualifiers as to whom what applies to.  He is speaking to a specific audience.

 

On 7/3/2020 at 2:26 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning Matthew's account alone, I see the first section (24:4-14) as really pertaining to the era of the Church (especially), with huge relevance to every generation of the Church since the first century.  I see the second section (24:15-28) as really pertaining to the Israelites (especially) and the time of Daniel's 70th Week, which will close with Christ's Second Coming and the Battle of Armageddon (vss. 26-28).  And finally, I see the third section (24:29-51) as pertaining to very day of the event of Christ's Sign Return for both the rapture of the Church and as sign to the Israelite nation, seven years (and some months) before His Second Coming. 

 

Ok, so here is the problem I see with your conclusion.  First, there is nothing prior to your third section that indicates anyone going anywhere.  The issue you are running into is the focus should be on the questions which are being answered, three of them, and any sectioning should be in regards to the questions.  Another major concern is your attempt to separate Jew from Gentile when the very people He is speaking to are His disciples, which are the equivalent of the church.  Scripture is very clear that there is no division by race in the body of Christ, from the time of the resurrection forward He has made one man.  Paul writes about this explicitly in his letters, you may want to refer to Ephesians.

 

Now to address why your sections are faulty, I am just going to show you what I mentioned previously in regards to the II Thessalonians passage you posted.  Paul gives the exact same sequence as Jesus gives in the Olivet discourse.

 

Matthew 24:10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another.

Matthew 24:12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.

 

II Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

 

So you first get the apostasy in verse 10 of the Olivet discourse, in verse 12 lawlessness will be increased.  The man of lawlessness is responsible for the AoD, which Jesus tells us of in verse 15 indicating what we get in verse 15 is detailed information that is occurring within the period between verses 10 and 12.  This is why you see repetitive information regarding warnings about false prophets and not to "go out" when they claim Jesus is here.  This is common in prophecies, we see the same thing in Revelation where we are given a summary, and then a detailed look elsewhere.  That is why verse 15 is framed in the manner it is, beginning with, "So when you see the AoD...."   We will see it in the previous section, sometime after verse 10.

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

 

My title:

 Are the U.S. and Trump the Ones Restraining?

Restraining what? that is explained in the body of the text as lawlessness, never as evil.

 

Ok William, you are arguing semantics now.  My original post in response to your OP specifically addresses one example of the US govt engaging in lawlessness.  The example I gave demonstrates not only the complete disregard for the laws of the US, but also violated the Geneva Convention, which is international law.  Exactly how many examples of lawless behavior by our government do you require?

I chose that specific example, because what resulted from the Vietnam conflict, was 58,000 dead americans, and over 2 million dead Vietnamese.  Those numbers don't reflect the entire loss of life, because the Truman administration and the Eisenhower administrations pre-dated our "official" involvement.  Those numbers don't reflect the total number of lives lost, including the French, Laos, Thailand, Cambodian, and other nations that suffered casualties along the way.  Roughly 3 million lives lost so a handful of men could get rich on blood money, you'll have to forgive me, but I call that evil.

Furthermore, the text in question does not state that lawlessness is being restrained, you are misquoting the text.  It says the man of lawlessness, son of perdition, that would be a being.  On top of that, this lawlessness is not in regards to US law, or any other nations laws, this is scripture, it is referencing God's law.  There are only two sides to this, good and evil, arguing semantics does not make your theory any more plausible than it was before.