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Hi Ninhao, As far as I can tell all living things were created in an adult stage. I chose my words carefully because I knew that I could not be completely dogmatic about this. But your statement brings up a very good possibility that they were created young but the process would have to be very fast to accomplish it in one day or at least by the end of the week depending on how definite a statement has to be. Ge 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day. Ge 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. 23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day. Ge 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 24 ¶ And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 31 ¶ And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Ge 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. Even though I suggested that heaven and the earth may be very old, I did not intend to give the impression that all the other things weren’t created in those six days Good talking with you, God bless, Tony

Even though I think it can be shown that certain people are skipped in genealogies of the Bible for certain reasons: that is not worth my time in discussing it. But I would like to bring up is a couple of points. One, (I bring up the first one as something to consider, I do not know which is right) The exact age of the earth isn’t really listed if you look closely at the Genesis account. Ge 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. It could have been a few seconds or billions of years before verse three comes about. Notice that He created heaven at what appears about the same time as the earth. If it was a few seconds before verse 3 then heaven is only about six days older then mankind. 3 ¶ And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. Two, When God made adam and eve they were created as adults. As far as I can tell all living things were created in an adult stage. So why would God create a universe in an infant stage and just wait for billions of years for it to be ready so He can carry out his will? I am not one to believe something because my Christian brothers and sisters do, nor am I inclined to believe something because something my forefathers in the faith believed, but I try to stick completely with the Bible. The choice is to trust in God’s Word or to trust in man. (yourself or others) You decide Jer 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD. 1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you. God bless, Tony

Hi redroses42, My personal opinion is that many make a mistake by assuming that the word saved means the same thing all the time. You have to take it in the context of what they are talking about. 4982. σωζω sozo sode’-zo; from a primary σως sos (contraction for obsolete σαος saos, "safe"); to save, i.e. deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): — heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole. An example, Jude 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved <4982> the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. Even though God had saved them (what I usually refer to physically as apposed to using truly saved to refer to spiritually saved) they still did not believe. Another mystery to me is that some assume that all the members of the early church were spiritually saved and apply that same belief to themselves and others because they attend what they consider a proper church. It is always the individual that needs to be saved, there is no group salvation because you happen to be a member of a certain group. Just read the seven letters to the churches in revelation, At the closing verses of each letter (no matter how good or bad the church was) there is a call to the individual. Re 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. Re 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it. Re 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: Re 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Re 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. Re 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. So who is Jesus talking to? Individuals who are church members who are not spiritually saved. How do I know they are not spiritually saved? 1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 1Jo 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? I’ll end here so as to not make too many points to defend. God bless, Tony Side note taken from J.F.B commentary. I will not — Greek, "I will not by any means." blot out … name out of … book of life — of the heavenly city. A register was kept in ancient cities of their citizens: the names of the dead were of course erased. So those who have a name that they live and are dead (#Re 3:1), are blotted out of God’s roll of the heavenly citizens and heirs of eternal life; not that in God’s electing decree they ever were in His book of life. But, according to human conceptions, those who had a high name for piety would be supposed to be in it, and were, in respect to privileges, actually among those in the way of salvation; but these privileges, and the fact that they once might have been saved, shall be of no avail to them. As to the book of life, compare #Re 13:8 17:8 20:12,15 21:27 Ex 32:32 Ps 69:28 Da 12:1. In the sense of the "call," many are enrolled among the called to salvation, who shall not be found among the chosen at last. The pale of salvation is wider than that of election. Election is fixed. Salvation is open to all and is pending (humanly speaking) in the case of those mentioned here. But #Re 20:15 21:27, exhibit the book of the elect alone in the narrower sense, after the erasure of the others.

When God saves his elect it isn’t just from the punishment of sin it is also from sin itself. Salvation is not of works but works are a result of salvation. Tit 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake. 12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. 13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; 14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. 15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. --The above shows the difference between the truly saved and the false professors of faith.-- Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. 5 ¶ Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: 6 For which things’ sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: 7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. 8 ¶ But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. 9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; 10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: 1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. -- the above shows the changed life-- Ro 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Ro 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. --the above shows that righteousness comes without works-- Ro 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. --the above shows that you cannot glorify in God’s presence because of your works or for your decision or whatever term you may use-- God bless, Tony

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. The choice was which gods they were to serve if it seemed evil to serve the Lord, “whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood,” “or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell” So no, this verse does not teach a choice to choose the Lord. De 29:1 These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb. 2 And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land; 3 The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles: 4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day. 5 And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot. 6 Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the LORD your God. 7 And when ye came unto this place, Sihon the king of Heshbon, and Og the king of Bashan, came out against us unto battle, and we smote them: 8 And we took their land, and gave it for an inheritance unto the Reubenites, and to the Gadites, and to the half tribe of Manasseh. 9 Keep therefore the words of this covenant, and do them, that ye may prosper in all that ye do. Ro 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. Ps 65:4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple. Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Some thoughts for the non Trinitarians, Why would the Holy Spirit send greetings (from heaven) when He is here on earth? John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. The Son is the one to be glorified and the son will glorify the father. The Holy Spirit does not speak of Himself John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father but we are put in the Father and in the Son and the Father and the Son come into us. One is the way it is naturally whereas the other is caused to happen. John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Hi Onelight, I agree that when lifting vertically or in the case of being still on our feet but being forced to go in a certain direction that our English word drag would not work too well and draw would be a better word to use in those cases. But draw has a wider possibility of meanings and can be misconstrued. Miriam Webster dictionary. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/draw But for further study here are all the occurrences of 1670 John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw <1670> him: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw <1670> all men unto me. John 18:10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew <1670> it, and smote the high priest’s servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant’s name was Malchus. John 21:6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw <1670> it for the multitude of fishes. John 21:11 Simon Peter went up, and drew <1670> the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken. Acts 16:19 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew <1670> them into the marketplace unto the rulers, Acts 21:30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew <1670> him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut. James 2:6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw <1670> you before the judgment seats? I think we can see from the above (except the possibility of differing opinions on John 6:44 and 12:31) that they/it were not drug or drawn because of them/it being willing. Good talking with you again, have a nice day.

sorry double post

Hi Onelight, In one way born again believers are completely in agreement with Him, in another way born again believers are in complete disagreement with Him. And of course in one way born again believers are in agreement with Him but are being torn apart by both sides . Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. So I would say God doesn’t do anything that the born again believer’s heart wouldn’t agree with. Also there is nothing that God does that the born again believer’s flesh would agree with. And I would think that the mind of the born again believer would go along with the desires of his heart although there may be some failures along the way. But before salvation it is what you would call done automatically without our permission. John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw <1670> him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 1670. ελκυω helkuo hel-koo’-o; or ελκω helko hel’-ko; probably akin to 138; to drag (literally or figuratively): — If someone were to drag you it is probably without your permission. Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 ¶ But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: Some Scriptures to consider, Matthew 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Deuteronomy 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. 7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee. 8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day. Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. Psalms 27:8 When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, LORD, will I seek. Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 1 Peter 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

Hi Elhanan, I think the difference is that where I believe it is God working in me that accomplishes my being kept in Him, whereas you believe it is submission that causes you to be kept. Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Those that are truly saved already obeyed. Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Those that are truly saved have faith and react accordingly Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. Those that are truly saved, do love, 1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. He is the one that showed mercy. 1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us. Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 ¶ What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. If God doesn’t save completely then no one will be saved. Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. 19 ¶ Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; We enter this relationship by the new birth, John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And this is one of the signs of being born again. 1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. So I don’t disagree with you that obedience is needed, I just disagree how it is accomplished. But I still have to say that not everyone that is in the church is truly saved. 2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. Talk to you later, Hopefully everyone has a great Resurrection Sunday and that we are blessed by God.

Hi elhanan, I believe a truly saved person cannot continuously sin for a variety of reasons. We are changed, We are held by the power of God We will get an timely reaction from God, and we love God and people. Some other things involve trials and testing which weakens the flesh’s power over us. We learn by experience that it is better to go Gods way, And so on… But I wonder if anyone can be completely without sin in this sinful flesh. Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. So I would say it is more of the direction as opposed to sinless perfection in this life. But of course I am not perfect, but did you get anything that you can use?

If you believe this, then we are pretty much on the same page. Lets take the example you gave from Revelation 3:1 I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. You are absolutely right. This person was not saved, but the key here is that this person thought they were saved. That is the problem I have with most of the OSAS believers. They teach a false assurance of salvation message to where they can continue in sin, and remain saved because of their supposed faith in Christ. This shows that you can honestly believe you are saved and still be lost. I agree with the premise that the truly predestined and called of God will remain saved, but at the same time, just because you believe you are saved, that doesn't mean you are? If you are living in sin, chances are you are deceiving yourself, and the warning is to the people in that condition. If they are not among those predestined to be saved, of course they won't be saved because they have a sin nature, and God hasn't quickened them. God is absolutely sovereign in his choices, but that doesn't mean we aren't going through life making our own decisions. It is just that God knew what they would be before we did them, and created us to be the person we are. i also think we are really close in our beliefs. here is some Scriptures that are food for thought. Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 ¶ What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 1 Corinthians 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Hi elhanan, I don’t think all the warnings in the Scriptures are only for unbelievers but I believe that (and I think I said this before) you have to take everything in context. Here are some examples, Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. But who is he talking to? Hebrews 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. So he is talking to everyone in the church but is only applicable to those who were thinking of going back into Judaism. Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? So who is He talking to? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. To those he never knew, not to those who lost their salvation. Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. Who is He talking to? Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. To everyone in the church but it is not applicable to those that believe to the saving of the soul. 1 Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; 11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust. The letters to the seven churches in Revelation each has something about overcoming. Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it. Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. But check this out, Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; 8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. 12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. 13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. So considering how good this church was, the individual (not the church) still had to overcome. But my answer to your question is that God keeps us. We cannot take credit for it. 1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. 2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: But you certainly can believe what you want and this is only a discussion although some may be getting a little carried away. By the way I don’t believe that a saved person can willfully go on sinning because of a few factors. We are changed, 1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. 11 ¶ For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Galatians 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. We have to answer for sinning now, 1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. We love so that makes it hard to sin, Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. 1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 1 John 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? There are more but nothing is coming to mind right now. I’m sure I can go on but I think it is enough to explain my position more clearly then just saying that we cannot receive the mark. Good talking with you…

lol I can't read greek, and that is just your own private interpretation. You cannot believe that Christ was ONLY addressing believers unless you are willing to say that everyone in the local assembly is a saved man or woman. He was addressing REAL churches first and foremost.You cannot use those passages to try and "cancel" clear scripture. He most definately was addressing real believers, and OneLight is correct in saying only true born again believers have their name written in the book of life. This is not debatable. He was addressing a Christian assembly,not unbelievers. Had be been addressing unbelievers, he would have been giving them the message of salvation. I don't need to know Greek to see that. I guess if you assume at least one of these things then your interpretation can work, One is that when you are born again then you are written in the book of life. The problem is that this was done from the foundation of the world. Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. The second assumption is that God has predestinated some to eternal death. The problem with that are these verses. Genesis 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. Psalms 81:15 The haters of the LORD should have submitted themselves unto him: but their time should have endured for ever. Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! The third assumption is that everyone in the church is real believers. 2 Timothy 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Fourth assumption is that there is no distinction between being written in the book of life and being written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. Psalms 69:21 They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink. 22 ¶ Let their table become a snare before them: and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap. 23 Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake. 24 Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them. 25 Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents. 26 For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded. 27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. 28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. Scribes and Pharisees and Roman soldiers crucified The Lord. At what time were they in the book of life? Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. Side note- predestination is true but double predestination is not. First of all, I believe what you call "double predestination" is true, therefore nothing you said works. The only thing I have reason to address is whether everyone in those churches had been saved? They didn't have to be. The messages were to people that had been saved. You can tell that by what was said. It wasn't a message of salvation, but repentance for someone who had fallen. They are being called to return to a previous state. How so? 1 John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome <3528> them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh <3528> the world: and this is the victory that overcometh <3528> the world, even our faith. 1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh <3528> the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? I honestly don't know what those scriptures have to do with anything I said? I was saying that those who are truly the called of God will overcome, and those who are not called to be saved will die lost. You will wind up wherever you were pre-destined to wind up, and this will be reflected in your lifestyle. I have posted much about this all throughout this thread and others explaining exactly what I mean. That is why the first thing I said in my response to you was I do believe in what you call "double pre-destination," though I had not heard this term till recently. Hi butero, It was in response to this statement, “The messages were to people that had been saved. You can tell that by what was said. It wasn't a message of salvation, but repentance for someone who had fallen. They are being called to return to a previous state.” If we overcome then why then is the warning? It is pretty much a done deal isn’t it since God said it in His word? 1 John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome <3528> them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh <3528> the world: and this is the victory that overcometh <3528> the world, even our faith. 1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh <3528> the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? Fair enough, but my response to you would be that this is speaking of those who were predestined to be saved. They will be overcomers. While I believe that God knows our eternal fate, and knew it before we were formed in the womb, he still has people give out warnings. Those who are predestined to heed the warnings will, and those who are predestined to stop up their ears will do so. BTW, why the huge font? You can post however you wish, but I was just wondering? It is a big hard to follow because you have to scroll down so far just to read a single paragraph. of course it is about those predestined to be saved. those predestined to be saved will be saved and those not predestined will be lost but not because they didn't have oportunity even though they were unable to take it because of thier nature. the large font is because i was asked by some to increase my font size because they were older and had trouble reading my posts.

Perhaps this will help, Revelation 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. 4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. 5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. 6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. They were dead even though they proclaimed themselves to be alive. Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 ¶ And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. He that overcometh, Assurance for the born again believer, But this cannot be a warning to the born again believer because if they had been truly saved wouldn’t this verse exclude them from a second chance? Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Here is assurance, 1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. Some are able to hear. John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. John 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and my Father are one.

lol I can't read greek, and that is just your own private interpretation. You cannot believe that Christ was ONLY addressing believers unless you are willing to say that everyone in the local assembly is a saved man or woman. He was addressing REAL churches first and foremost.You cannot use those passages to try and "cancel" clear scripture. He most definately was addressing real believers, and OneLight is correct in saying only true born again believers have their name written in the book of life. This is not debatable. He was addressing a Christian assembly,not unbelievers. Had be been addressing unbelievers, he would have been giving them the message of salvation. I don't need to know Greek to see that. I guess if you assume at least one of these things then your interpretation can work, One is that when you are born again then you are written in the book of life. The problem is that this was done from the foundation of the world. Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. The second assumption is that God has predestinated some to eternal death. The problem with that are these verses. Genesis 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. Psalms 81:15 The haters of the LORD should have submitted themselves unto him: but their time should have endured for ever. Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! The third assumption is that everyone in the church is real believers. 2 Timothy 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Fourth assumption is that there is no distinction between being written in the book of life and being written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. Psalms 69:21 They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink. 22 ¶ Let their table become a snare before them: and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap. 23 Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake. 24 Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them. 25 Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents. 26 For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded. 27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. 28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. Scribes and Pharisees and Roman soldiers crucified The Lord. At what time were they in the book of life? Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. Side note- predestination is true but double predestination is not. First of all, I believe what you call "double predestination" is true, therefore nothing you said works. The only thing I have reason to address is whether everyone in those churches had been saved? They didn't have to be. The messages were to people that had been saved. You can tell that by what was said. It wasn't a message of salvation, but repentance for someone who had fallen. They are being called to return to a previous state. How so? 1 John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome <3528> them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh <3528> the world: and this is the victory that overcometh <3528> the world, even our faith. 1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh <3528> the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? I honestly don't know what those scriptures have to do with anything I said? I was saying that those who are truly the called of God will overcome, and those who are not called to be saved will die lost. You will wind up wherever you were pre-destined to wind up, and this will be reflected in your lifestyle. I have posted much about this all throughout this thread and others explaining exactly what I mean. That is why the first thing I said in my response to you was I do believe in what you call "double pre-destination," though I had not heard this term till recently. Hi butero, It was in response to this statement, “The messages were to people that had been saved. You can tell that by what was said. It wasn't a message of salvation, but repentance for someone who had fallen. They are being called to return to a previous state.” If we overcome then why then is the warning? It is pretty much a done deal isn’t it since God said it in His word? 1 John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome <3528> them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh <3528> the world: and this is the victory that overcometh <3528> the world, even our faith. 1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh <3528> the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Our Lord made a very clear statement, and one that can easily be understood when comparing scripture. First, "he who overcomes". Every single one of God's born one's overcomes the world, this is a bible fact. 1Jn 5:4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 1Jn 5:5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. 1Jn 4:4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. While you are doing your best to prove a point that one can be blotted out, you miss the bigger picture in that this is Christ reiterating his precious promises of never blotting out the name of the one who overcomes. All saints of God over come and our garments are made white by his precious blood. The thought is not the threat of being blotted out, but that the over comer will not be blotted out. Do you think anyone not born of God would overcome? I didn't think so, so to make an argument based on this is not convincing. I am not trying to prove anything, but to open your eyes to what He is saying. If you really take the time to look at the letters in Revelation, Jesus does talk about those who overcome. Jesus was talking to those who are in Him, giving them a a warning. You can ignore the truth if you want, that is your choice, but there is no getting around it in the end. Hi Onelight, Good post and it is not that I don’t see your point about the letters in Revelation, but He was speaking to the whole church, not only to those that were born again. I would doubt that the whole church was born again. 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 ¶ Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work. 22 ¶ Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. 24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. I just want to give God the glory for my salvation. I don’t want to glorify myself. Romans 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) 7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Good talking with you again… Take a closer look at the verses you quoted. If I were to follow what you are saying as truth, then I could earn my salvation by the works I do. This is not scriptural. Since one cannot work their way to salvation, they are already saved who have to ensure that what they do is of Him. Look at the example that was given about Hymenaeus and Philetus. They were saved, but allowed themselves to be led astray by false doctrine. They because a vessel of dishonor. So, yes, is every church there will be vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor, depending on what truths they hold. What you bring does not show that those Christ spoke to in Revelation 3:5 were unbelievers, but believers led astray. First off the Scriptures are true, it isn’t my fault that you misinterpreting them. Obviously you cannot work your way to heaven. But there is Someone you can go to to purge yourself and there is Someone who can give repentance to you so you can have the power of God in your life. Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. But how is it you don’t consider the other part, do you work to stay saved? So…. Anyway I don’t know how you guys have so much time on your hands, but I don’t. talk to you later. Perhaps you should take the time to show where I misinterpret scripture. If you don't have the time to explain what you accuse me of doing, then don't accuse me. Then you quote Romans 1:16. What does that have to do with believers who do turn away from faith?? I quoted Scripture and this is what you said. “Take a closer look at the verses you quoted. If I were to follow what you are saying as truth, then I could earn my salvation by the works I do.” The Scriptures are the Truth. Seems like you were questioning the validity of these Scriptures. If I misunderstood what you said then what were you saying? This verse shows by whose power we are saved. Not by work like you said I was saying. Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. But I guess the following verse would take care of any doubts that true believers cannot lose their salvation. 1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Btw , I never said I didn’t have time later or for something important. Classic…

lol I can't read greek, and that is just your own private interpretation. You cannot believe that Christ was ONLY addressing believers unless you are willing to say that everyone in the local assembly is a saved man or woman. He was addressing REAL churches first and foremost.You cannot use those passages to try and "cancel" clear scripture. He most definately was addressing real believers, and OneLight is correct in saying only true born again believers have their name written in the book of life. This is not debatable. He was addressing a Christian assembly,not unbelievers. Had be been addressing unbelievers, he would have been giving them the message of salvation. I don't need to know Greek to see that. I guess if you assume at least one of these things then your interpretation can work, One is that when you are born again then you are written in the book of life. The problem is that this was done from the foundation of the world. Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. The second assumption is that God has predestinated some to eternal death. The problem with that are these verses. Genesis 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. Psalms 81:15 The haters of the LORD should have submitted themselves unto him: but their time should have endured for ever. Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! The third assumption is that everyone in the church is real believers. 2 Timothy 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Fourth assumption is that there is no distinction between being written in the book of life and being written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. Psalms 69:21 They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink. 22 ¶ Let their table become a snare before them: and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap. 23 Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake. 24 Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them. 25 Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents. 26 For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded. 27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. 28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. Scribes and Pharisees and Roman soldiers crucified The Lord. At what time were they in the book of life? Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. Side note- predestination is true but double predestination is not. First of all, I believe what you call "double predestination" is true, therefore nothing you said works. The only thing I have reason to address is whether everyone in those churches had been saved? They didn't have to be. The messages were to people that had been saved. You can tell that by what was said. It wasn't a message of salvation, but repentance for someone who had fallen. They are being called to return to a previous state. How so? 1 John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome <3528> them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh <3528> the world: and this is the victory that overcometh <3528> the world, even our faith. 1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh <3528> the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Our Lord made a very clear statement, and one that can easily be understood when comparing scripture. First, "he who overcomes". Every single one of God's born one's overcomes the world, this is a bible fact. 1Jn 5:4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 1Jn 5:5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. 1Jn 4:4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. While you are doing your best to prove a point that one can be blotted out, you miss the bigger picture in that this is Christ reiterating his precious promises of never blotting out the name of the one who overcomes. All saints of God over come and our garments are made white by his precious blood. The thought is not the threat of being blotted out, but that the over comer will not be blotted out. Do you think anyone not born of God would overcome? I didn't think so, so to make an argument based on this is not convincing. I am not trying to prove anything, but to open your eyes to what He is saying. If you really take the time to look at the letters in Revelation, Jesus does talk about those who overcome. Jesus was talking to those who are in Him, giving them a a warning. You can ignore the truth if you want, that is your choice, but there is no getting around it in the end. Hi Onelight, Good post and it is not that I don’t see your point about the letters in Revelation, but He was speaking to the whole church, not only to those that were born again. I would doubt that the whole church was born again. 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 ¶ Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work. 22 ¶ Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. 24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. I just want to give God the glory for my salvation. I don’t want to glorify myself. Romans 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) 7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Good talking with you again… Take a closer look at the verses you quoted. If I were to follow what you are saying as truth, then I could earn my salvation by the works I do. This is not scriptural. Since one cannot work their way to salvation, they are already saved who have to ensure that what they do is of Him. Look at the example that was given about Hymenaeus and Philetus. They were saved, but allowed themselves to be led astray by false doctrine. They because a vessel of dishonor. So, yes, is every church there will be vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor, depending on what truths they hold. What you bring does not show that those Christ spoke to in Revelation 3:5 were unbelievers, but believers led astray. First off the Scriptures are true, it isn’t my fault that you misinterpreting them. Obviously you cannot work your way to heaven. But there is Someone you can go to to purge yourself and there is Someone who can give repentance to you so you can have the power of God in your life. Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. But how is it you don’t consider the other part, do you work to stay saved? So…. Anyway I don’t know how you guys have so much time on your hands, but I don’t. talk to you later.

lol I can't read greek, and that is just your own private interpretation. You cannot believe that Christ was ONLY addressing believers unless you are willing to say that everyone in the local assembly is a saved man or woman. He was addressing REAL churches first and foremost.You cannot use those passages to try and "cancel" clear scripture. He most definately was addressing real believers, and OneLight is correct in saying only true born again believers have their name written in the book of life. This is not debatable. He was addressing a Christian assembly,not unbelievers. Had be been addressing unbelievers, he would have been giving them the message of salvation. I don't need to know Greek to see that. I guess if you assume at least one of these things then your interpretation can work, One is that when you are born again then you are written in the book of life. The problem is that this was done from the foundation of the world. Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. The second assumption is that God has predestinated some to eternal death. The problem with that are these verses. Genesis 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. Psalms 81:15 The haters of the LORD should have submitted themselves unto him: but their time should have endured for ever. Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! The third assumption is that everyone in the church is real believers. 2 Timothy 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Fourth assumption is that there is no distinction between being written in the book of life and being written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. Psalms 69:21 They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink. 22 ¶ Let their table become a snare before them: and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap. 23 Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake. 24 Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them. 25 Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents. 26 For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded. 27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. 28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. Scribes and Pharisees and Roman soldiers crucified The Lord. At what time were they in the book of life? Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. Side note- predestination is true but double predestination is not.

Our Lord made a very clear statement, and one that can easily be understood when comparing scripture. First, "he who overcomes". Every single one of God's born one's overcomes the world, this is a bible fact. 1Jn 5:4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 1Jn 5:5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. 1Jn 4:4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. While you are doing your best to prove a point that one can be blotted out, you miss the bigger picture in that this is Christ reiterating his precious promises of never blotting out the name of the one who overcomes. All saints of God over come and our garments are made white by his precious blood. The thought is not the threat of being blotted out, but that the over comer will not be blotted out. Do you think anyone not born of God would overcome? I didn't think so, so to make an argument based on this is not convincing. I am not trying to prove anything, but to open your eyes to what He is saying. If you really take the time to look at the letters in Revelation, Jesus does talk about those who overcome. Jesus was talking to those who are in Him, giving them a a warning. You can ignore the truth if you want, that is your choice, but there is no getting around it in the end. Hi Onelight, Good post and it is not that I don’t see your point about the letters in Revelation, but He was speaking to the whole church, not only to those that were born again. I would doubt that the whole church was born again. 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 ¶ Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work. 22 ¶ Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. 24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. I just want to give God the glory for my salvation. I don’t want to glorify myself. Romans 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) 7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Good talking with you again…

So do you still cling to your idea that "the faith" in Scripture does not mean personal saving faith as you have ignored my counterpoint. If so, can you cite any scriptures that would support your belief? I have difficulty following your logic but if I may summarize what I think you're saying it would go something like this - Since a true believer can never fall away, even following false doctrine will never cause a believer to be lost. You conveniently overlook the fact of how Paul himself characterizes what you would describe as simply men teaching doctrines. Paul in no uncertain terms says they are DOCTRINES OF DEMONS. So, according to your belief a believer can follow doctrines of demons and yet still be saved. Isn't that sheer hypocrisy? You continue to ignore the plain warnings of Scripture in order to preserve your personal beliefs. Don't ignore what Paul says about the importance between maintaining doctrine and saving faith: "Watch your life and doctrine closely (a command). Persevere in them, because IF YOU DO (conditional clause), you WILL (not already have) save both yourself and your hearers" 1 Tim 4:16. That is what you call allowing scripture to speak for itself. It is unbelievable how some here can ignore verses that were presented on how born again believers are kept and keep themselves and then cling on some verses which expose or they think exposes believers losing their salvation. Think about this, John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 31 ¶ Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33 They answered him, We be Abraham’s seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. 37 I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 38 ¶ I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. 39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 4100. πιστευω pisteuo pist-yoo’-o; from 4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well-being to Christ): — repeating, there is a difference between those that truly believe and those who only acknowledge the facts. Jude 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. Not everyone that was saved out of Egypt was spiritually saved. They all were physically saved but were they spiritually saved? The same goes for the church hence the example in Jude. Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. 1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Yes we who are spiritually saved continue unto the end, those who join the church and fall away are not. Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 ¶ Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Really, is it possible to give someone understanding? Here is an example of self righteousness. Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. So you can keep the law and see how well you obtain righteousness.

ok now your just playing games. i take it you have no real response.

'Elhanan' posted You are certainly entitled to your opinion but I have no idea what you're talking about when you refer to the publican and sinners as being like the younger son and the Pharisees and scribes representing the older son. They are not even the characters in Jesus' parables; they are his audience to whom he was speaking so to include them in forming your personal interpretation of the parable is invalid to say the least. It is common knowledge that the purpose of Jesus telling parables is that those like the publicans and sinners would have eyes to see and ears to hear spiritual truth. Others like the Pharisees and scribes would remain blind and deaf to spiritual truth because of the hardness of their hearts. My quotes of Romans are not conditional statements to begin with but are sentences containing two clauses, the second clause further defining the subject of the first clause so your objection is irrelevant I don't understand your third point. I simply referred you to 1 Tim 3:6 where it plainly states that a convert will face the same condemnation as the devil if he becomes a prideful person. It plainly indicates that a believer can lose his salvation which directly contradicts OSAS teaching. Simply put, those who believe in OSAS fall prey to the same lie that the serpent told Eve in the Garden: "You shall not surely die." my response, Luke 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. Matthew 21:28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. 29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. 30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. 31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. 32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him. Luke 5:30 But their scribes and Pharisees murmured against his disciples, saying, Why do ye eat and drink with publicans and sinners? 31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. 32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Did he call the scribes and Pharisees righteous? Luke 11:39 And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness. 40 Ye fools, did not he that made that which is without make that which is within also? 41 But rather give alms of such things as ye have; and, behold, all things are clean unto you. 42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. 43 Woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye love the uppermost seats in the synagogues, and greetings in the markets. 44 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over them are not aware of them. They thought that they were righteous. Luke 15:27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound. 28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him. 29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends: Do you really think that the reaction of the elder son was a proper attitude or does it follow the same attitude as the scribes and Pharisees? Do you really think that the older son did not need repentance? Still don’t understand? Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. 19 ¶ Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 2 Corinthians 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. 1 Timothy 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. And what do you think is the condemnation of the devil? I gave you before verses about those who are born again and how they overcome and keep themselves (wouldn’t that be their walk?) but you didn’t quite get it. Or is it that you don’t want to get it?

"A contract of obedience"? So now Eternal life is no longer a free gift, it is a contract of obedience? Or is it partially a contract and partially a gift? I've seen clear scripture that points to salvation as absolutely free on the merits of Christ alone, but I have never read where it is a contract between you and God. Last I heard we were dead and without strength when God saved us. 2Ti 1:9 He has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, Rom 3:24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. Either salvation is completely free and by grace, or as you say, we are contractually obligated to perform good works in order to survive. Scripture rejects that notion. Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. Rom 4:5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. We do perform good works, but they spring from the new life in us that came with our salvation. Works are vitally important in the believers life, but dear friend, for you to suggest that those of us who believe in the Eternal security of Christ adhere to living like devils is a bit much. As far as our Lord saying "He who overcomes", that is not a matter or question of if, it is a matter of fact. Believers believe to the end. We do not draw back or give up. Scripture says we overcome the world. There is no question on this. 1Jn 5:4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 1Jn 5:5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. When you read scripture like, "he that endures to the end shall be saved" or "He who over comes" it is not a statement of prerequisite, but a statement of fact. True faith endures, true believers believe. Heb 10:39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved. 1Pe 1:5 who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. Joh 5:24 "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. We have a sure anchor in the heavens, our Lord Jesus Christ. He is our eternal security. We trust in him to deliver us safely home. That is the true teaching of OSAS. Any who fall away are not of us, they are imposters who were exposed. They had no root in them and fell away when times got tough. Where is the sin in a man or woman trusting and hoping completely on the mercy of Christ? Where is the sin in believing the Lord when he said he gives me eternal life and I shall never perish? That is showing trust and faith in God. He wants us to have full assurance. Anything less is doubting God and trusting in your own performance. great post...God bless.