oak

It is! Paul states, "May the Lord grant him (Onesiphorus) mercy on that Day (Judgment Day)." Is there a difference in your opinion how a believer and non-believer approaches gratitude or well wishing as well as accepting it? This is certainly different from just praying to his family. And again, I said, a prayer to the dead that "only God can hear." I think that indicates that it's involving God. However I will use "for" instead of "to" even if I say God can only hear the prayer I'm not nor was I ever talking about praying to the dead (unless it's a typo or being misread), I stated that the prayer is directed to God. Either way do you believe in a prayer of gratitude for a dead man's actions to God?

There is something that caught my eye in reading Shiloh’s post. Shiloh considers certain things not to be prayer. For instance, Shiloh writes: “[about Paul’s remarks in the epistle as being] common hebraic styled blessing…hebraic expression meant to express Paul's gratitude to Onesiphorus and by extension to his surviving family for the good things Onesiphorus….” I feel that is at the least is a form of prayer What is man's own (without God) blessing or gratitude toward's another man worth? You of all people should know the answer. In my opinion the action taken by the soldier, definitely resembles and deserves a prayer of thanks You've got me a bit confused (easy now, due to medications) because I never meant the prayer of thanks to be read as a prayer of intercession. So a prayer of gratitude to the dead man which only God can hear, is ok, by you? Finally, I would be puzzled if any form of our communication with God is not a type of prayer – even when we just talk to Him - excluding, of course things such as expressing anger, doubt etc I know you didn't say it but think about it - how do we communicate with God?

First of all thank you for all the answers given. Secondly, I haven’t only written about praying for God to have mercy on the dead - for them to achieve salvation. I wrote about all forms of praying for* the dead. If that was not understood, I should have been clearer in my writing. There is something that caught my eye in reading Shiloh’s post. Shiloh considers certain things not to be prayer. For instance, Shiloh writes: “[about Paul’s remarks in the epistle as being] common hebraic styled blessing…hebraic expression meant to express Paul's gratitude to Onesiphorus and by extension to his surviving family for the good things Onesiphorus….” I feel that is at the least is a form of prayer. But I will have to examine that more. As well as Shiloh’s remark "…Thanking God for the man's actions [falling on grenade to save the troops around him] is one thing. That is not praying "for" him.” In my opinion the action taken by the soldier, definitely resembles and deserves a prayer of thanks. Finally, I would be puzzled if any form of our communication with God is not a type of prayer – even when we just talk to Him - excluding, of course things such as expressing anger, doubt etc. PS I re-edited the doubled-up post and *thanks to Shiloh, I meant "for."

Shiloh, thank you for enumerating your beliefs on prayer for the dead for it will help with my conversation with my OSAS friend. Also, I brought up intersession, by mistake and I would appreciate it to not be part of this discussion. I will assume that when Paul prayed for Onesiphorus, you feel Onesiphorus was both alive and in another location? Am I correct? Lastly, I was wondering what is your approach to people you may have loved and died in Christ? Do you ever think about them or thank God they were in your life? Or do you just put them out of your mind. I recently heard that in the Iraq war a soldier in order to save the men around him fell on a grenade, to save them from death. If you were one of the survivors of this event, would you thank God for his actions? I don’t think you would easily be able to put that event out of your mind. And though the action has nothing to do with your salvation, would you make an effort not to pray or mention anything about him in your communications with God?

God offers salvation to every person willing to receive it. To die in Christ means that you have to make a decision for Christ while you are alive. No one can pray you into heaven. No one's prayer is going to cause God to compromise His holiness in order to let an impenitent sinner into heaven after they rejected Christ in life. They chose to remain a sinner and that is the decision the have to live with for all eternity. Even indecision about Christ is a decision against him. If you are at an airport and you are debating whether or not to buy a ticket to get on a particular flight, you have only so much time to make that decision. If you wait too long to make a decision the plane will take off without you. At that point the decision was made for you. Time always works against us in that regard. if you don't make your mind about getting on the plane the results are the same as if you decided to not board the flight at all. God's mercy is extended to all who will receive Him, but that mercy is not extended to sinners AFTER death in any way, shape, or form. God's mercy must be received today in this life. Prayer for the dead to receive God's mercy after they have already died is not biblical and is a waste of time. If someone dies without Christ, I simiply understand that they died separated from God and have entered into eternity without hope of salvation. Once you die, it's over. There are no second chances at redemption. I simply have to live with that reality for those who die without Christ. I will never forget them, as they were a part of my life, but there is nothing that can be done for them at that point. Your point is well taken, Shiloh, for there are Orthodox believer’s who pray for their loved ones who have never – to their knowledge - accepted Christ and died in wretched ways. Of course this involves a topic that I purposefully avoided which entail intercession prayers. Something I may bring up later depending on how this post goes. I embraced the comments by Butero and Fresno Joe for only God knows our inner heart. And leave you with Christ’s stunning words from the cross,”…Father forgive them for they know not what they do.” Lk 23:34

First, I thank all of you for your answers. Secondly, no Orthodox and I hope Catholic would directly pray to a dead person. Let’s, say a mother loses her son in the Iraq War, is she wrong in praying to God to keep her son under His care? I looked over all your answers but didn’t find anything that would be in direct conflict with what I have just cited. If I did please let me know. Further no one has addressed, 2 Timothy 1:16-19, regarding Onepsiphorus. Many of the Eastern Orthodox feel that Paul was praying for him when he was dead. I would appreciate feed back on this. In the Orthodox faith, people pray to the departed directly to God, for them to sleep under God’s peace (awkward translation by me). Is this misguided? In fact a majority pray for people who departed as sinners and ask for mercy from God on their behalf. Let me again emphasize that to my knowledge no Orthodox prays directly to the departed. Lastly, no one is praying for the dead out of pride or to stand out as being superior, they pray out of a desperate hope for God’s mercy. And no one is denying that the great battle is taking place when you are alive. And let me ask those who do not believe in praying for the departed. What is the action you take? You just forget about your parents who died, or loved ones? Is there any approach that is acceptable in your faith – even if it’s just forgetting about them. I’d love to know. Oak

Brother Joe, I read you clearly. But in the tradition of the early chosen people, the Jews, did they not put shrines up for the prophets without making them idols and did they prey for the dead in hope and mercy from God? Are all of them not in the “light?” Why didn’t Christ say that Shrines to the Prophets are wrong. Love Brother Oak PS If I'm not correct about the accounts I cite, anyone is free to correct me.

Recently, a very good friend of mine who said, at first he left Eastern Orthodoxy – years ago - for a non-denominational church, has know admitted to being an OSAS believer. Well, I’m worried because he has a very addictive in nature and even believes that in the parable of the wedding feast, the man who is cast out is still saved in Matt. 22:11-14. The hopeful purpose of this post is I want people to share their different perspectives on the topic. Anyway, we (my friend and I) both chose the topic of praying for the dead since it is not one of the key points of Salvation. The Orthodox Faith and the Catholic Church accept this practice (as well as some other religions) but for different reasons. Due to the wealth of information, I chose mainly to focus on scripture used by the Orthodox and Catholic faiths, since there is a lot of tradition involved in this practice. I will say two things about the tradition part. First is that it reminds me a lot of Fresno Joe’s quote of “let’s put our bodies up against the sinners to prevent them from falling into hell” (I’m paraphrasing). Secondly I found that before Christ, Jews would put up shrines to the prophets and prayed for the dead; I don’t quite remember where I read it or if it is even true. Note, I will comment on the scripture using my own words to avoid plagiarism. In regards to Maccabees, I will source it. In terms of Macabbees in the Council of Carthage 397 AD, Christians agreed on the texts to be used in the Bible – it included the 2 Maccabees’ books the second Maccabees book was originally written in Koin Greek – unusual for the Old Testament. Since I don’t know Greek, Serbian, Armenian etc., but have only Church Slavonic Bibles at home, I will resort to an English text: “But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin.” 2 Maccabees 12:45 (NRSV) – source. I use this to illustrate that certain religions use this as a justification for praying for the dead. You will probably not find it in your Bible. Ok, now we come to the heart of the matter. I always seek out priests that have the love in them. One who had chemotherapy and a hard day confessing yet found time for me - and though tired, smiled and took me out for coffee; another after a hard fast waited to talk to me rather than filling himself with food. They are the minority. When I ask them about praying for the dead they echo the same sentiment. “…for “love is strong as death….” Song of Solomon 8:6 They believe that the law set limits but Christ showed that through faith they are open ended or there is no end. “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.” Jn 14:12 You may ask what does this they have to do with prayer for the dead? Well they actually believe that with Christ drawing us to open ended love, that they can pray to Him for a departed person that has never found Him and actually help them. Perhaps they are child-like optimists. But with them I know Christ conquered death and made love stronger than death. Besides the Bible reminds us, we often don’t pray correctly. “For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groaning too deep for words.” Rom 8:26 Now the serious and stern priests would probably draw me towards, 2 Timothy 1:16-18: “May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus…May the Lord grant him mercy on that Day! –and you know the service he rendered at Ephesus.” In “praying for his household” without Onesiphorus, it seems to be an indication of him being separated, dead. The clincher would be Paul mentioning, “grant him mercy on that Day!” In conclusion I would ask the Messianic Jews or Jewish converts to help me gain insight, since as I mentioned before, it seems that the Jewish faith perhaps prayed for the dead. In my education of the Bible the Old Testament was covered but not in great detail. I only started studying in greater detail when I joined Worthy. Oak PS Have a safe and happy Thanksgiving.

It’s good that you are self-aware. I suffer from anxiety and depression. So, I’m going to give you some medical advice – 1) - that I received and then give you scripture that supports it - 2). Remember weaknesses God gives He can turn into strengths. 1) Enjoy the process – people with anxiety want to finish everything and then go on to the next thing - eats away at your ability to notice the beauty of nature etc. 2) "Be still and know that I am God." Psalm 46:10 Know that God is in charge and he loves you. 1) You may realize that disorganized thinking is the wood that supplies the fire for disorders. 2) "…take every thought to be captive to serve Christ." Cor 2:7 1) You are more alone with friends then with just God (yes there are Christian psychiatrists). 2) “…Yet I am not alone, for God the Father is with me.” Jn 16:33 1) The higher your expectations the more nervous you become and then depressed when they are not fulfilled. 2) “The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want. Pslm 23;1 1) There is nothing that we or act on that doesn’t somehow benefit us. A good yet sad example are abused women; they keep going from one abusive relationship to another – that becomes an identity for them; a way they can relate to themselves . 2) "Commit your way to the Lord; trust in Him, and He will act." Pslm 119:26 Of course there is much more but in closing remember your thoughts are very powerful – I feel - often in people with disorders, people turn their thoughts against themselves. Focus your thoughts on God and helping people – this is what Christ wants us to do (Mt 22:37) - and you will feel a calm in your heart (perhaps, not right away but it will come). Also thoughts of gratitude are and exceptional healing gift to have. Oak

Thank You, Fresno The people reading this post may be repulsed by me and that is their right. However God allowed His own Son to be tempted. No matter how much of the Holy Spirit you have, don’t be deceived by the subtleness of evil. I prayed to God - before the post - asking Him what can I do to get closer to You? The answer came. I wrote this post it to share with you my journey and fight for Christ. Putting God first is not an easy thing in our lives. “Whoever loves his father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me….” Matt 10:37 This what one of my spiritual advisors said to me in part about my experienece: "For the time being I'll share a thought with you. This is something I said to a young couple at their wedding: the devil has taught us a wrong idea of love at the forbidden tree. He says that love consists of 1.desire, 2.possession 3.consumption. The holy fathers add (my paraphrase) : what we eat, we excrete. We don't want it anymore. God's love is the opposite: it is not consumed, but grows, like a fire spreading. Neither does it consume in the sense of destruction, i.e., the unconsumed burning bush of Moses, the quality of Easter holy fire of Jerusalem, temporarily. Anyhow, I wish that holy fire spreads within you, now that it has started. God bless, With love in Christ, NK Oak

Thank you Onelight - you've helped me thru God more than once.

This realization came to me today. I suffered much in life but life here (USA) has so many privileges such as having meals, a house, a car that I took/take them for granted - they are mine. And so sin and evil subtly attacked me. I suffer from anxiety and depression but why? I realized that I trust in pills and medications more than God. Instead of thanking Him for making these medications, I actually abuse them. Even in simple matters like when I lose something, I start being angry and finding them becomes more important than God. When I achieve big things in life I consider them my possessions only. No one can take them away from me, I feel. And if God does take away my prized possessions my faith in Him fails. With this realization what does it matter if I go to Church or pray, or confessed Christ as my Savior, if in reality I don’t put God first? “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind….” Matt 22:37 So, I right away thought I must abase myself, and take the lowliest of positions. I will, will myself to a stronger faith. Then, I went to Church and came to my senses. “With man this is impossible but with God all things are possible.” Matt 19:26 My doing anything will not merit salvation. My very breath, sight is all due to God. If I do good works and claim them as my own they are worthless. They are Christ given. I have to thank Him for everything. And whatever the outcome of my eternal life is, I have comfort in knowing God is just, forgiving and loving. There is no wrong in His decision. My choice is to repent - a God given opportunity - and hope for mercy. Oak PS This post does not mean that I converted to Eternal Security. I know it seems paradoxical.

My area in Ohio did that years ago. You could choose to pay for a street light on your own bill. On the scale of Michigan; also, were you in unsafe neighborhood? Oak

In Michigan in a poor section, officials turned off 1000 street lights due to failure of payment. I never heard of such a thing. The consequences and occurrences after this brilliant move are disastrous. I will leave link which is rather long, sorry. http://www.google.co...e43a5bbc376f0b2

Eccl look at what you’ve done. This topic is ceaseless! I gave it 3 tries. The last being the Beatitudes which take effort and work – and I believe they are a ladder to salvation. However Shiloh said, “they have nothing to with salvation.” He backed up his thoughts. Lastly, I took part in this topic not to match wits but due to my concern for the Eternal Security crowd to get to heaven. I think they are great bunch of people and seeing there love and fervor for Christ (that I pray is in spirit), I have no more to say. Leaving, Oak PS I was on the Eccl team.

I was reading these posts and both sides are firmly entrenched and unmovable. However I have a question for the Eternal Security side. The Beatitudes are a wondrous road map for a Christian. What need do you guys have for them? You accepted Christ, the Holy Spirit is working for you, works are just an outward expression or really not sufficient at all. Are you guys, poor in spirit, meek etc., automatically when you accept Christ? How do you use them? I think Eccl’s side is saying it takes effort for salvation. By the way Shiloh, you told me you want to write a book on them. Oak

What is that supposed to mean? That is my point. There are those who are saying that we control our salvation by what we do. My point is that salvation is not based on personal merit but on grace through faith. Faith is not merit at all. Faith is how we respond to the unmerited gift of God's grace. We are not saved because God is pleased with our faith. We are saved because we have placed our faith in Jesus and His finished work on the cross. All I meant by clever is that you got me to go into a kind of loop – not many can do that. Further, your statement, “So you believe that your salvation is up to you? You are the one who determines whether or not you are saved,” is what I was answering not merit. And just as a man’s life will determine if he goes to hell - I feel there is free will - a man’s will plays a part in determining if he wants to be saved or go to heaven. I feel a man should not act and feel like he will definitely go to heaven – deception is rampant. This is what my conscience tells me and how I understand the Bible. You must realize if I took on Eternal Security, I would start to take it easy but that is my nature. I agree with you that salvation is an undeserved gift, but I choose to be vigilant not to fall into sin. The best thing I can quote is, “As for the man who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not for disputes over opinions.” Rom14:1. Maybe I’m weak in faith and you are stronger. Oak

You fascinate me Shiloh. You seem to think only one will can be at work. Then tell me who willed Christ to be crucified? If you say God the Father, it’s a yes; if you say Christ, it’s a yes; if you say humanity, it’s a yes as well. Or do you feel God didn’t hold people accountable for their will? Sorry to interrupt your flow but when you have chance I’d love to hear your thoughts. Oak It is not so much about will as it is merit. Do you believe you are saved because you earned/deserve it? Is it your efforts that keep you saved? Works do not save us, no matter how grandiose they appear in our eyes. Salvation is found in only one place and that is at the cross of Calvary. All men are equally sinful and there is only one remedy for sin: The finished work of Christ on the cross. No one, no matter how good they may appear to be in our eyes will ever find the way to God through their own efforts. Mother Teresa, for all her good works, was no closer to bridging the gap between her and God than Hitler was. Salvation does not stem from a program of performace-based acceptance. God is not interested in man peforming well enough for Him. Man can't possibly do that even if God did expect it. Salvation is based on the grace of God extended to man and man responding to God's offer of grace by faith. You’re very clever Shiloh. No, we don’t deserve anything from God because we are fallen. However maybe it’s not merit but faith that is the issue. We have the choice of faith in Christ – “Go your way your faith has made you whole” Mark 10:52 -and taking up our cross. We are urged to ask and we will receive (Matt 7:7). Does Christ ask people if they want to be healed? He is looking for a willing faith. And what about the rich young man who couldn’t part with his riches? His action was a choice (and not having faith that Christ is the prize). Maybe sincere and true faith is merit enough for God. Oak

You fascinate me Shiloh. You seem to think only one will can be at work. Then tell me who willed Christ to be crucified? If you say God the Father, it’s a yes; if you say Christ, it’s a yes; if you say humanity, it’s a yes as well. Or do you feel God didn’t hold people accountable for their will? Sorry to interrupt your flow but when you have chance I’d love to hear your thoughts. Oak

Well I will tell you what God's word says and you can take it, read and study it to come to a sound conclusion; Heb.4 [14] Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. [15] For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. [16] Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. Heb.8 [1] Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; Notice Paul includes himself by saying we have a high priest. Now what is the job of our high priest? To go to the Father to ask Him to forgive us of our sins. That would not be needed if we no longer sinned. Let's read what Paul says here; 1 Cor.9 [27] But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. Now let's read from John; 1 John 2 [1] My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: So....do we sin until we die? That's a hard one to answer. Because we also have Paul saying this.... 2 Tim.4 [7] I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Here it appears that Paul knows he is at the end of his journey and his fate is set. It seems that at this point in Paul's life to sin, though it is not impossible for him to do, is something he just does not see himself doing. I pray I could say the same. As far as mercy.....THANK GOD FOR IT! For we ALL have sinned! As I have asked before....Just when does God say enough is enough? Is it after the 1st, 101st, or 1001st sin? Who knows. But the one thing we do know is that we have a High Priest that talks to the Father for us, asking for forgiveness! . Thank you for the answer - very wise. I have feeling that the Bible will break you down mentally till you rely on faith alone. Oak

"Therefore I tell you, her sins which are many, are forgiven - for she loved much. Lk 7:47 This is powerful and truly hopeful, for the Bible is about love. Oak

Hi Ecc, (sorry, I read so many posts, that I confused you with someone else - maybe I'm under too much stress) I feel the following is a central issue to your post: “…Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.” Though I agree with your post and feel that man should be very careful about claiming his won salvation (very informative), there are several things I want to discuss. First, do you believe that we will sin basically all our lives? Don’t we have to fight and endure all our lives? Now you mention Moses. What do you think of this scripture,” For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law the person who does the commandments shall live by them. But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?” Rom 10:5-6... [[neither should we ask who will descend to hell].... Paul continues that if we confess Christ with our mouth and believe that God raised Him the dead, we will be saved. Then Paul goes on to show the traits of a true Christian: using our gifts given to us – teaching, prophesying, hope and patience. So basically with us not even being advised to think or ask about heaven or hell, you’re right about OSAS or other forms of certainty; Moses is of the law and therefore should – in my opinion – not be overly stressed to make your point. Also, I believe in mercy based on true repentance is something that is not really addressed in your post. Scriptures come to mind: “And the servant who knew his master’s will but did not get ready or act according to his will [God’s], will receive a severe beating. But the one who did not know…will receive a light beating.” Lk 12:47-48. Note these servants are treated differently from the servant who abuses God’s will – by willing to be punitive to his servants and getting drunk which is Lk 12:45. So, we have gradations of disobedient servants which you didn’t mention. Also, when the Apostles hear of how difficult it will be for the rich they say: “Who can be saved?” Mat 19:25. Jesus answers: “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” Mat 19:26. Finally, let’s not forget the thief on the cross who was given eternal life at the last moments of his life. In summation, this is a very difficult topic. But I think it’s purposely done, so we will truly search for God’s Will, and not get a quick formula and then forget about it. Let’s help each other and show kindness and mercy, for then we may be graced to receive salvation. Oak

To Apologia: Perhaps I wrote too hastily and therefore invited your interpretation which of course I don’t agree with. I believe there are three wills at play which are God’s will, man’s will and evil’s will. The point that I was trying to make is that in the Bible we are exposed to God’s will by his relationship with man in terms of salvation after the fall of Adam from Heaven. That said we don’t have much information about God Himself. I hold that a search for God is very helpful however within the framework of salvation. Simply stated much about God we do not know. You say, we have a “will but it is not autonomous.” This is a very difficult sentence to contemplate. For if I say I have a will but it is not autonomous it is a will that has to be redefined. Be my guest. I believe God is Sovereign and allows man and evil to go against his Will. I neither believe that God wanted evil to break ranks or for Adam to fall. Therefore God’s Sovereignty dictated by Him allows for granting choice to his subjects. I think this shows the greatness of God’s Will. I believe the mistake you’re making is your boxing God into the earthly realm alone while not realizing God’s Will is eternal and goes beyond this earth. For starters explain why Jesus says, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my Kingdom is not from the world.” (John 18:36). But Christ goes to his fate, putting a great qualification in his words (falling into the will of the world). I don’t quite know how to put this, but God’s Sovereign Will can not truly be fully understood by man. That goes for the broken pottery. As far as the theories I’m glad that you take comfort in being Calvinist. But I worry about some aspects such as pride or not trying to save an unelected person (I don’t attribute this to you but these things can happen). My main point if we choose to believe in a set of values, let them bring us closer to God thru faith. Faith being key.

Esau vs. Jacob John db mistake: “Yeah, I was going to say (but someone else caught it) that the OP has Jacob and Isaac confused with each other.” There was no confusion intended in my OP. The confusion is inside your own head. The essence of my post was “Ask it will be given to you ; seek, you will find; knock and it will be opened to you.” (Matt 7:7) And though Isaac and Jacob are both on the side of good they are distinguished thru all their faults from Esau: simply because their main concern is God and not themselves (though they do sin and make mistakes). You want to take on Peter and Judas? Also, how many of us are in danger of giving our salvation (birth right) for a meal? Free Will Apologia, quoted Eph 1:11 11 We have also received an inheritance in Him, predestined according to the purpose of the One who works out everything in agreement with the decision of His will, HCSB Where in this sentence does it say that God does not establish free will? God choosing evil to survive having His only Son be tempted by it, is an affirmation of choice. If your quote is meant to make a statement about no free will why was the Son tempted? Just for appearances sake, right? Theories and suppositions: Whether it be Calvinists (the chosen few) Arminius (God see’s all including those who truly strive for him). How does that change you in terms of doing good or evil? Does either one make you a better Christian? God The only thing we can credibly argue is Salvation. As far as God’s Nature and Mind: “Oh. The depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his ways! ‘For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor? ‘or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid.” (Rom 12:34-36) Oak PS Dispensationalism (different rules at different times) replacement theory (The Church replaced the Jews), I took out since I don't want to argue the living by the law vs spirit. Though neither replace loving God first and your fellow man as yourself.

Thank you Frezno!