CWJ

1John 2:23 :thumb:

YES! Very good one Wisdom! :thumb:

Amen Fishman! Boy....I am getting all accused of some bad things , Lan! ALL I've done is point out how we shouldn't mix pagan rituals with worship of God, and you have said I'm adding to the Word!! WOW!

kinnear....I would like to read that article...is it something you could post here?

Of course excellent!

Journey....you still missed MH's comment on verse 4....well... I think you all are missing the point, I agree no relationship with the Lord is affected by having a Christmas tree, you are still a saint. I DON"T go into someone's house and point the finger at all, in fact I never bring it up. Not that important. THAT is the wisdom taught in Romans 14..... But here on this forum it's brought up, so out with the truth concerning pagan practice mixed with worship of God. That's the issue!! Journey you take this to a personal attack on me I think, when that is not the issue. I am not "beating up" on anyone, but the Word of the Lord is a sharp Sword....has it cut you any? Can anyone answer this issue in light of the verse in James1:27?? Journey want to try? Journey want to try to show where I'm not grounded in scriptures? AGAIN THIS IS AN ISSUE OF MIXING PAGAN STUFF WITH WORSHIP OF THE LORD JESUS! Not about doing pagan stuff day to day like calling the days of the week by pagan originated names. Now that's silly and we are free from that. Remember He says that His commands would not be grievous for us to obey....but when OBEDIENCE is brought up in today's churchianity the fellers are yellers with cries of "LEGALISM!' And what about James1:27?????????????????????????????????

What's HWA stuff?

The Journey...you might want to check Matthew Henry's commentary on Romans14. You'll see the same interpretation of the first 6 verses I had. As we grow in Christ, become closer and more spiritually mature, the things of the world become more distinct as to what they really are. This is not becoming a legalistic pharisee, but getting to learn more about God's will. James4:17 Someone may claim God is silent on certain issues, but a study of scriptures will more often than not point out God's will, whether it fits your definition of "liberty" or not. We are free from sin in our liberty in Christ, not from doing God's will. Phil2:13 The lesson from Romans 14 is to NOT judge or have an holier than thou attitude to those spiritually immature, who have not learned as much about God's will yet. I DON'T pass judgement on saints for the Christmas issue, BUT DO POINT OUT THE FACTS ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURES! So....does this make me a "pharisee"? Like I quoted earlier...Jesus said the world would hate Him, so why does the world make a big to-do about His supposed b'day?? I think there are some spots here that some just plainly refuse to see. James1:27..."Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and TO KEEP HIMSELF UNSPOTTED FROM THE WORLD." Celebrating Christmas is not wrong...I think....as long as you erase the pagan influence and keep it to celebrating Jesus. Peace, Carl

The Journey, I follow you on the meat thing, and I knew about that. BUT...the issue is still about doing pagan practices and incorporating them in worship.(on Christmas) In Romans they aren't doing pagan worship or ceremony, just eating the meat that came from pagan sacrifice. verse 2 talks about ceremonial law. verse 4 is dealing with salvation, that is, judging another's condition of. I never meant the whole chap. is about salvation. I am not a professor emeritus, but do have the Holy Spirit to teach me all truth.(and scripture) I will be interested in reading those pieces you suggested.

Verse1...him that is weak in the faith(spiritually immature) recieve ye(accept those that are yet children in the faith) Verse2..another who is weak,eateth herbs(thinks he must practice ceremony, has not fully learned the Grace of God) Verse3...for God hath received him( saved reguardless, if you practice ceremony NOT thinking this saves you, or have abolished ceremony) Verse4..this verse condemns judging another one's salvation, and ends by pointing to God's power to save and hold one up in the faith. Verse5...be fully persuaded in his mind(have the assurance of salvation by God's Grace) Actually these verses are dealing with people who were still practicing ceremonial law. Here we see an explanation outlining the Grace of God in salvation's work and not the importance of ceremony. I think the rest of chap 14 explains we are NOT to judge one's salvation by the things they may do, and gives us some wisdom on our own actions around the weaker in faith. But we know that scripture tells us to point out the will of God, when we see it, to another saint. This is an OBEDIENCE issue. 1John5:3.."For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not grievous." Without going verse by verse in chap 14, I hope that gives you an idea of my thought. You see chap 14 deals with the practice of a Godly law no longer "needed"(hope that makes sense), whereas the Christmas issue deals with mixing pagan practices with worship. So...in addressing the Christmas issue, we are not trying to establish a "law", but trying to point out the will of God. I DON'T think any saint will loose salvation for practicing this "holiday" as the world does. But I think they should definitely be shown the scriptural facts about pagan practices and how God views such. Romans 14:12..."So then every one of us shall give an account of himself to God." Praise the Lord of Lords, King Jesus! :inlove:

We don't live inder a "democracy", we live under the rule of the King of Kings!! What he says......goes! I believe Romans 14 that was quoted by The Journey just might be more about judging whether or not one has salvation than about obedience to the Lord's will. Actually I believe that passage is all about one's salvation and NOT about OBEDIENCE, such as FishMan has been trying to get all to see. I think some careful reading of this passage is needed. I for one see it as FishMan does concerning Christmas. BUT I DO NOT JUDGE ANYONE'S SALVATION BY THIS ISSUE!!!! Peace to all, Carl

InHisLove...so it's ok to incorporate pagan rituals in a celebration of the Lord's birth? Study scripture for an answer. I'm NOT saying it's wrong to celebrate His birth. suzie....how many "in the world" (unsaved) are practicing Christmas in the same form and same time of year(as christians do), but doing it from a worldy stance? So...I'm saying if this is strictly a 'christian" thing...then why is it so "worldly" popular?? Jesus said the world hated Him........

DErnie, I see where you are coming from. I was under the idea you were saying pre-destination. OK...in Rev22 18-19, it says "any man". So....with this wording all mankind has a "part". The question is....does "part" mean a "space" reserved...or....a name already written in? BIG QUESTION! To already have it written, to later be "blotted out", seems to me to fit God's will of all men coming to repentance. In this situation one who rejects Christ is x'ed out. Or the opposite could work, a space reserved but never filled in. Really no problem either way, it just doesn't refute OSAS as you indicated. Along that line of thought I have shown where the scriptural definition of an overcomer makes it clear in Rev3:5 that OSAS is the truth. Having been re-born one is assured by scriptures of never being erased from the book of life. The more I look at this, perhaps it is that the names are in there to begin with. I will look back at your post to see what verse you are talking about and look for any verse to do with the book of life. I think we should discuss OSAS on another thread, as there is nothing to refute this truth. Blessings, Carl

Yod...not to discredit you at all....but could it be possible that we can find some answers in scripture that contradict the traditions you experience? I mean that over time could these traditions of man gotten a little "off course"? Just might it be possible that the Saviour didn't drink al-kee-hol? As in a strongly fermented drink? I'll get these scriptures together quickly so we may examine them, should be interesting. OH...I'm not Baptist either....just a bible believing saint.

Ha! good one tsth! Like Paul wrote, the spirit (white dog) and the flesh (black dog) are constantly warring. DadErnie.....as for one thing to note on Rev22:18-19....You have to assume that it is talking to one saved!(that a saved person would do the abomination being described) You also have to assume that "part" means the same as name written in, so I suggest strongly you are jumping to conclusions not clearly present in these verses. These facts you need to support your position are just not there! Although, based on the Lord's will given to us in scriptures, we can deduct a "saved place" in the book of life. Read 2Peter3:9......if God finalized the list of saints in the foundation of the world then He went against His own will! It means He willed some to go to the devil's hell! NOT When bringing up Saul from the OT, you are now not comparing apples to apples. In the NT we are in salvation through a NEW BIRTH, different from the OT. We are new creatures. We are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, constantly influenced to do God's will (Phil 2:13) Please read back through my previous posts. We cannot understand this mystery of God; we have free will, yet God foreknows it all. But choose this day whom ye will serve. Shadow2b....I think the predominate meaning of akuo is "to hear out loud clearly", not "to understand" as in intellectualy. In Rev 22. Also, can anyone show a plain verse that describes the names being written in at the foundation of the world? Blessings to all, Carl...OSAS

Dad Ernie...I believe I have shown scripturally that there is a "part" or "space" for names to be entered at a later date, this is consistant with God's will that ALL should repent, so everyone has a chance in this life to do so.

I can't get this link to work either. I'll have to go over that study in that link, and post it little by little. It really gave me a lot of new scriptural insights to the wine issue. There's something about wine also being non-alcoholic juice. A good bit of refernce given too. "I'll be back"

OK....I'll step up to the plate here. Rev 13:8...in this verse it is saying the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world; not that the peoples names weren't written at that time, just that Jesus' sacrifice was planned. Reading the context should make that clear. So...the idea that some names were neverwritten in (and never will be) cannot be obtained from this context. The context points out that all(unsaved) shall worship the beast. To say that this established a timeline for the writting of names is inference. Rev 22:19....This moreover states a condition of all having a possible "part" or "space" for your name to be written. NOTICE: IT DOES NOT SAY "WRITTEN" in already!! This "saved space" idea is consistant with 2Peter 3:9..."that all should come to repentance". Therefore..., we "all' have a "part" reserved based on our decision in this life. God so loves us all that He leaves us a chance. NOW...as a far as OSAS...well, let's see the clear picture using scriptures. John 3:3...one must be re-born to see the Kingdom of heaven John3:16..states how we must be re-born, by believing Mark 6:12...this belief must be the right kind, with repentance The proper believer is an overcomer. 1John5:4..."For whatsoever is BORN of God OVERCOMETH the world; and this is the victory that OVERCOMETH the world, even our faith....(5)...Who is he that OVERCOMETH the world, but he that believeth that JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD?" So we have a firm scriptural definition of an OVERCOMER. NOW...for the proof from scripture that ONCE RE-BORN, ALWAYS RE-BORN (SAVED) Rev3:5.."He that OVERCOMETH, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; AND I WILL NOT BLOT OUT HIS NAME OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." NOW THAT'S ETERNAL SECURITY! Thanks Abba! Praise the Lord Jesus!

Jesus is King of Kings, Prince of Peace....so.....if He dranked al-kee-haul....He would be disobeying Prov31:4 If He made al-kee-haulic wine at the wedding....then....He would be placing temptation in front of people...."be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess". The Lord is not a tempter of man. James 1:13 He fullfilled the law, and did no sin.

................chillbumps............ :inlove:

suzie...I'll say this in response.... Look into the history of the celebration of christmas. Look into the pagan rituals invovled. Look how they CLOSELY parrallel what we do today. Then look up God's Word on such traditions, concerning pagan rituals, and the traditions of man. Also does the scripture stress celebrating His birthday?....or His Death? Then....you tell me if it's a sin......... ???

Can't the strength of the alcoholic content be different too?

Adstar...I'm not too sure about your question. But I'll say this....Jesus fulfilled ALL the law....He was perfect....and yes we are to follow His Words. How would Jesus be in conflict with any other commandments? (assuming you mean God's) If that is not the answer you want could you be a little clearer on your question? Thanks, carl

Amen...fish I have learned to do what I'm led to obey by study and prayer. Not to CONDEMN....but only identify the sin....as scripture instructs us to do so. This CAN be done w/o being judgemental. It seems when toes are stepped on they holler "your being judgemental!". But in this PC christian world...it seems that those "watchmen" who blow the horn on sin, get tomatoes thrown at them by fellow saints. I blame it partly on the vexation of our "just do it" society. Blessings, Carl

One point that has always "stuck-out" with me....is for a pre-trib raputre...Jesus has to come back 3 times? Can any pre-tribber make this plaiin as to how there are only first and second comings, but this theory looks like three? Or is one just a "swoop", a "near" coming? And where is that in scripture?