kross

Martin Luther wrote a book called "The Captivity of The Will" and Calvin (even if you do not believe his overall beliefs) does a great job of explaining the concept of the will not being "Free" in the way many today think of it. Yes I know that here are other theologians who teach differently. I learned all I know of the Bible from reading the Bible and prayer. Long after I had formulated an understanding, one that disagreed with everything I believed before, I discovered that great Biblical thinkers had seen the same things in the scriptures. This is probably true for most. I have enjoyed the conversations of late, but I am returning to writing my novel. I hope that I will not return to chatting for a couple of months. Blessing to all during the Christmas festivities. HIS peace I leave with you. KRN

That is close, but not quite right. It is my contention that everything GOD allows, HE wants to happen and everything HE doesn't allow, HE doesnt want to happen. I do not believe GOD forces us to do anything. GOD knows exactly how to influence our desires so that we will want to do the good HE would have us do and HE knows how not to intervene so that Satan can (as we see in Job) do what Satan does, within the limits of what GOD will allow him. All of which is in accordance with what GOD intends to happen. When the HOLY SPIRIT does a work, HE does it perfectly.

Like all Christians, we agree on 90% and we discuss the other issues vehemently. I am not saying GOD or Satan make us do things against our will, I am saying they bend our will to what they want and then we choose to do it.

A desire HE put in me and stengthened to the point that I speak as Paul did when I say it is not by my will but by the will of GOD.

That has been my point all along. Sin and evill were intended in this world as part of the plan, which was for CHRIST to die. i would say it was expected rather than intended. Intended kinda implies that God wanted it. Expected implies that God knew free-will may cause creation to choose against Him. I believe GOd most certainly wanted it. Otherwise, what is creation for? why not say God allowed it? The same way God allowed the angels to rebel. God is flexing His power when He allows for those things to happen. I understand why one would use allowed. The issue is, it was in their make-up to want to, in their nature, and they were created with this nature.

That has been my point all along. Sin and evill were intended in this world as part of the plan, which was for CHRIST to die. i would say it was expected rather than intended. Intended kinda implies that God wanted it. Expected implies that God knew free-will may cause creation to choose against Him. I believe GOd most certainly wanted it. Otherwise, what is creation for?

That does not change the fact that Pharoah had already hardened His heart before God gave him over to his own hardness. However, Paul tells us that God raised Pharaoh up for this purpose. So God is still the initiator Eric, We all know GOD hardened Pharoah's heart, we all now that HE makes one vessel for honor and one for dis-honor, and we all know the Bible is very clear that GOD will have mercy on whom HE chooses and whom HE chooses HE hardens. Still, there are some who make that say the exact opposite of what it says. GOD bess you during this conversation. IF you carry it long enough, you will find the flaws in the logic. My conversations on this topic, Romans 9, have proven to me that I understand it very well

This is difficult subject in some ways......Satan was not created evil, he used to sing and praise God. He chose evil and God found it in him. This really not a difficault subject if you believe GOD designed Satan with a complete knowledge of who and what he was and would be. It is only difficult when you do not want to extend the soveriegnty of GOD to include that the outcome of HIS design and creation is exactly what HE intended it to be. Then it gets difficult.

Hyper-sovereignty is not "the truth." It is not biblical at all. It is an overstatement of what the Bible says about God's sovereignty. I do not believe you can over state GODs soveriegnty any more than I believe you can trust JESUS too much. But, you do tend to read a completely different message in the Bible than I do. It makes for interesting discussions.

of coarse God expected a rebellion to occur before He created the angels. Yes, God knew that free-will will run its coarse. God's character would of destroyed all those rebelling angels but they were not destroyed. "Why not" is what you should be asking. It seems as though a price was already paid or "something" was holding Him back. I think the something holding HIM back is HIS plan and purpose for making them. His plan cannot hold something back. If that were true then His Godly attributes are flawed. The moment one goes against a single word of God then a price has to be paid. His attributes would demand judgement. A plan cannot pass off as righteousness. If that were true then Christ should of not died and accepting a "plan" would of been suffice. Except we know that the plan was for CHRIST to die. The LAMB slain from the foundations of the world. you just answered your own point. That has been my point all along. Sin and evill were intended in this world as part of the plan, which was for CHRIST to die.

Earth is a place deeply influenced by Satan and his death force. If people can 'survive' this by faith and choose to be with God in this environment, they will no longer rebel when in heaven where Satan's force will be absent. I am answerring many different people who have said about the same thing. So, this is redundant. That is absolutely true. No disagreement at all. There will be no sin or evil in heaven or the new earth because there will be no Satan and a different sinless flesh. I believe GOD can create this place. There are those who say GOD didn't create Satan.GOD created an angel that made a freewill choice that GOD had no intention of happening. IF this is so, which I do not believe, then what is to keep another angel from doing the same thing, or a person, in the next heaven? Based on GOD's track record to date, what faith can you have in HIS ability to created a sinless environment where there is no evil?

God makes no mistakes. Frankly kross, I'm surprised that you would make such a statement. Are you not feeling well? Or is the real kross coming out? I have clearly stated that I believe GOD intended this world to be exactly what it is. The question is for those who believe that this creation is not what GOD intended it to be. And for those who believe GOD didnt create Satan to be what he is. I read very well, my friend (you really should note when you go back and change a posting). You need to be more clear if you don't mean what you say because you did say "Did GOD learn from HIS mistake and find a way to create without concern?" If it was a rhetorical/sarcastic question, you should say so or leave some type of clue. It's a non-issue, though, for me. I now know what you meant. I guess I assume when people see IF at the beginning of a statement that they will then link the question with the IF. My bad. I have not gone back and editted any posts one they have been addressed by anyone.

Your position is based on the assumption that nothing happens unless God intends for it to happen. The problem is that you have to step outside Scripture to make that argument. The Bible does not say that, so your assumption is not based on biblical fact from the get-go. You are relying on your assumption and trying to interpret the Scripture to fit your assumption. You do not have a biblical grasp on God's sovereignty and you are relying on an unbiblical assumption. The Bible says that nothing happens outside God's knowledge and permission. It does not say that everything happens because God intends. The Bible does not even say that God intended man to fall. All we know from Scripture is that God permitted what He knew would happen and that He already had a plan in place to redeem man from the fall. You have NO biblical grounds for claiming that God intended the world to be in the condition it is in. while i agree with what you say Shiloh, would you supply scriptures for us for your last paragraph, esp the first sentance, thanks. just wanted to say thanks shiloh, that's exactly what i've been trying to say for two (three?) days now... you said it much better than i did, and i hope that kross's eyes will be opened because of it. Equally, the rejection of the idea that GOD created Satan, and the earth, and put all of the ingredients together with full knowledge of what would transpire doesn't indicate that what HE intended to happen is what did happen, IS an assumption. The assumption that GOD didn't intend the fall is equally unvalid as the assumption that HE did. Perhaps more invalid, since scripture points us to the fact that HE not only knew what the outcome of HIS design would be, as a direct result of how HE designed it, but it also points to the fact that the entire point of creation is to glorify HIS son, the LAMB that was destined to be slain before any sin was committed. Whle it is always just bad conversation to say one person's assumption is wrong because it disagrees with another persons assumption, that is stilll not the cruxt of the question of the thread. If GOD didn't intend for sin to be in this world, which was brought about be evil that was in a created being we call Satan, if GOD didn't intend Satan to be what HE is, then HOW CAN YOU HAVE FAITH THAT GOD CAN MAKE THE NEXT CREATION WITHOUT SIN AND DEATH? If angels will still have free will, then one can choose to lead a rebellion. Your arguement is like saying that if a person mixes all the ingredients for a cake and puts it is the oven and it comes out a cake, that was not their intention.

So you agree that Satan as created for this? That he wasn't intended to be something else and changed? Because if that is what you are saying, than I agree with you. GOD created Satan to be what Satan is, thus not creating another one after he is tanked will result in a lack of sin and evil.

This particular post is about the before. If GOD didn't intend sin and evil in this world, how can you be sure HE will be able to keep it out of the next one?

Your position is based on the assumption that nothing happens unless God intends for it to happen. The problem is that you have to step outside Scripture to make that argument. The Bible does not say that, so your assumption is not based on biblical fact from the get-go. You are relying on your assumption and trying to interpret the Scripture to fit your assumption. You do not have a biblical grasp on God's sovereignty and you are relying on an unbiblical assumption. The Bible says that nothing happens outside God's knowledge and permission. It does not say that everything happens because God intends. The Bible does not even say that God intended man to fall. All we know from Scripture is that God permitted what He knew would happen and that He already had a plan in place to redeem man from the fall. You have NO biblical grounds for claiming that God intended the world to be in the condition it is in. Actually, the Bible is very clear that it was GOD who put all of the ingredients together with a full knowledge of what would happen as a result. If the result wasnt the plan, HE would have put some other ingredients in or left some out. The real question here is, if GOD didn't intend sin and evil to be in this creation, then how can you be sure HE is able to keep it out of the next?

of coarse God expected a rebellion to occur before He created the angels. Yes, God knew that free-will will run its coarse. God's character would of destroyed all those rebelling angels but they were not destroyed. "Why not" is what you should be asking. It seems as though a price was already paid or "something" was holding Him back. I think the something holding HIM back is HIS plan and purpose for making them. His plan cannot hold something back. If that were true then His Godly attributes are flawed. The moment one goes against a single word of God then a price has to be paid. His attributes would demand judgement. A plan cannot pass off as righteousness. If that were true then Christ should of not died and accepting a "plan" would of been suffice. Except we know that the plan was for CHRIST to die. The LAMB slain from the foundations of the world.

Since I like nothing better than to be GOD's puppet, since I pray (as JESUS did) "thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven and believe GOD answers that prayer and always answerred all fo JESUS' prayer, I will stick to my belief in what I see in the Bible. I gave JESUS my life and I believe it is no longer I who lives but CHRIST living in me. Peace

And yes, despite the fact that we see individual acts as horrible, we do not see the number of people who will be lead to the LORD as a result of each one of them. We do not see the way each one of them impacts eternity and the overall intention of GOD. We seldom consider that evil glorifies the good, and darkness glorifies the light. In the end, this creation is here to glorify the creator. The creator will be ultmately glorified when each individual sinner who is unsaved is judged in the perfect holiness and righteousness of GOD. The creator will be glorified in the complete salvation of each of HIS children whom HE saved as a result of HIS perfect grace and mercy and sacrifice. Each one treated as an individual here and at the judgement seat. Each one created to perfection for the task GOD has for ecause GOD leaves nothing to chance.

How do you know your will is "free". Just because you make a choice, does that mean it wasn't influenced by an outside source? Do you think GOD can influence you to make a choice without you even knowing it? I do. Infact, I am 100% certain that GOD does that a trillion times a day. Just because a drug addict states he could have made a differnt choice, does that mean he could have? Since the choice was made, it was the only choice that could have been made with the genetics, social, ecconomic, and spiritual influences at work at that time. If the spiritual influences were different, then the decission would be different. GOD doesn't have to direct evil towards someone (although Job shows us HE does) But GOD does have to direct evil away from someone. GOD does have to reign Satan in rather than allow HIM to be all he can be. Man's will, his deisres, are based in his heart condition. GOD softens the heart or allows the heart to harden (and sometimes hardens heart as in Rom 9) Without GOD exerting more influence than Satan and the flesh, no man would ever be saved. No man would ever do good. SO, in truth, the will of man is never free. We are the sum total of the spiritual influences in our life. And it is GOD who determines what those influences will be, either by direct intervention or not intervening.

God does not make mistakes. He is a perfect God. But then who has known the mind of the Lord? When the Lord spoke to Job in Job 38-41, He basically made it clear to Job how very little Job knew and understood. Blessings...South I take it that you are one who believes GOD didn't intend for Adam to eat the fruit. That the fall of the world wasn't HIS plan and intention from the beginning. Because I agree with you, GOD never makes a mistake. No-one thwarts HIS plans and purposes.

Reason One And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. Revelation 22:3-5 Reason Two I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. Revelation 22:13-15 It's All About Jesus And About His Throne..... First, I always love your posts. That said, this post is the one that I meant when I answerred the question about how do you have faith in GOD being able to do as HE has said HE will do with the next creation if this creation is not what HE intended it to be. The answer "because HE said so" doesn't hold much water if you feel that HE didn't intend HIS first effort to be what it is. NOw, I am absolutely convinced that GOD is an absolute soveriegn GOD. I am certain that all of creation is exactly what HE wants it to be. For me, the answer "because HE said so" is perfect because I believe HE can keep sin and evil away from anyone and anything HE wants to. I also believe that sin and evil are only where HE wants them to be. HOwever, if I believed as some do, that GOD intended paradise (and the fall of the world and the introduction of sin and evil was not HIS plan from the very beginning) then I would have some doubt as to whether HE could make the next heaven and earth any better.

of coarse God expected a rebellion to occur before He created the angels. Yes, God knew that free-will will run its coarse. God's character would of destroyed all those rebelling angels but they were not destroyed. "Why not" is what you should be asking. It seems as though a price was already paid or "something" was holding Him back. I think the something holding HIM back is HIS plan and purpose for making them.

The basic difference as I see it is that the new creation has infused within it the complete transformation, which is the consummation of the Holy Spirit. When God created the angels they were given specific functions. While it can be argued that the angels have some portion of divinity, they were not created to posses the entire divinity of God (That is, as pertains to the life and nature of God) as man was. Man was created with a body, soul and a human spirit that was created as a vessel to contain the very life and nature of God. However, although man was created to contain God, he did not achieve that goal; instead of eating of the tree of life, he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (essentially the tree of death). So man was at one time cut off from the life of God. It is now only through Christ that man has once again gained access to the very life and nature of God. He has made us partakers of the divine nature. It is through the impartation of the divine life that we are able to grow up into Christ, and become God's very counterpart. In the consummation of this age all the sons of God, us, will be completely transformed by the divine nature - that is, transformed in our spirit, soul and body (glorification). So eventually it will not be a matter of free will. It is not that the transformed Body of Christ no longer lacks free will, mind you, it is that the three opponents of God, sin, Satan, and the world, will be completely dealt with, and Christ will reign with us as His bride for eternity. So, in essence, the creation will be differently designed so sin and evil will not be there. Which I agree with 100%. However, that does establish that this creation was established so sin and evil would be here. Just to hedge, for those who will jump at the word would, this creation was made so sin and evil COULD enter. Since GOD knew it would enter, it still had to be the plan. If it weren't the plan, than aHE would have designed it as you have stated the next earth will be designed. I suppose were it otherwise God could not truly be God. His existence outside of time allows Him to know what is to happen and to interact or intervene as He sees fit. Yet this fact does not necessitate his having created sin or evil, as was suggested elsewhere. Consider the fact that God is no longer in the business of creation in the sense that He did not create us each individually. God set forth the cycles of procreation, life, and death and allowed time to carry all of creation through that cycle. Likewise, God can see the span of time and events as they unfold. He must have known the course of human history in eternity past. Yet He allowed this course to take place for His eternal purpose, His good pleasure, and according to his will. I believe GOD does make us each individually, formed me in my mothers womb and established my days before there was any. But, even if HE is as hands off as you say, the fact that HE created this earth the way HE did, knowing the outcome indicates the outcome was HIS intention.

Please refresh my memory - what is Open Theism? Open theism is the idea that GOD doesn't know what is going to happen, can not see the future, acts in the now only. You are right, Neb, I hadn't considered them in the question.