georgesbluegirl

I am turning red. Oops. I do too...the original Clerks is a big fave of mine. I'm a little embarrassed that I didn't recognize it (and that I've never seen "Chasing Amy"), even though I knew I'd seen it before. Secondeve:

and all those Northern Irish who kill each other (an issue close to my heart, by the way) - they must all be muslims too.

So all Muslims are terrorists, or are all terrorists Muslim? Which is it this time? It's this kind of thinking that perpetuates the current brutal, bitter situation.

Can I put that on a t-shirt? Seriously. Amen.

plus not all of them - maybe none of them, i'm not familiar with all of them so i can't make a more specific statement - said the catholic church was the "great whore." martin luther especially not: he didn't set out to form a new church, he wanted to reform his own.

All it needs to be is diesel - it can then be converted to run on biofuel or become a "greasecar." Cars don't necessarily come ready for biofuel, you have to modify them (although it's pretty easy).

what do you think was used to justify the crusades?

With respect, have you ever witnessed somebody dealing with "coming out?" Because I have, and it was a struggle. I've told this story on Worthy before, but it's worth repeating. One of my good friends is gay. You probably wouldn't guess from looking at him; he doesn't conform to any stereotypes (other than that he reaaaaaally likes working out) - he's tough, has a lot of straight male friends, watches football and wears jeans and a tshirt for practically every occasion. But he's gay, and has known for sure since he was 18 or 19. Did he choose it? Absolutely not. I was with him when he was going through the anguish of what to do with this discovery and how to handle his family eventually. I can't believe that he chose that pain - if he could have opted into being straight to save all of that, he would have. He grew up being told that gay people are evil. His brother just got out of jail from serving a sentence for assault - he assaulted a gay man for being gay. He still keeps it a secret from about half his family. He is also a Christian. Because of all of these things, he fought a long time with himself and was pretty confused for a while, but in the end he just couldn't pretend. He is still one of my good friends, still a great person, still the same guy I've known for five years, and I have to say he's much more at peace now having the truth out in the open, despite the fact that he's still unsure what to do in the long run to address his family. The bottom line is that he would have changed the way he felt if he could, but he couldn't. It wasn't weakness; he just isn't attracted to women (I know because I dated him for a while before all of this!). He is just who he is, and part of who he is - not all - is that he's gay.

are you crazy? barack is INCREDIBLE. even i can forgive him his SUV given his biodiesel attempts - that part isn't made up.

it's true "like it or not?" chick doesn't even have the decency to communicate the correct doctrine of whatever religion he's teaching about. for example, in the catholic tracts he often has priests saying "I forgive your sins" etc. A Catholic priest would never use those words - it's always explicit that forgiveness is between you and God - the priest isn't the one who does anything, just acts symbolically as the "vessel." Nobody would ever claim that kind of power. That's just one example - some of the fallacies with Islam are far worse.

ladyraven made the point i was getting at: though you began by referring to a specific group, this was a question that was broad to begin with - basically, you were asking if all muslims supposed to follow the kind of islam that terrorists do. as for your questions about sources, islam is SO cultural and SO embedded that it's almost impossible for a non-muslim to "get." better sources come right from the horse's mouth. you should also be aware that there are many, many different schools of thought within the body of the islamic religion, the primary split of course being sunni/shi'a (who have historically been enemies - one of the reasons that osama and saddam wouldn't have worked together is that they belong to different sides of that battle. it's very recent that we're seeing sunni/shi'a collaboration or discussion). many muslims do not support terrorists attacks. the support of osama, etc. in various corners of the globe (specifically, for the most part in islamic states) has a lot to do with culture; nevertheless, you can't say that most would condone terrorism. most just want to be able to practice freely. jade: one muslim does not a majority make. besides, those who interpret the koran to the violent extreme that islamist terrorists do often miss something key in the interpretation; military/violent action in the koran is generally very tempered. for example, a quote that osama bin laden used to use frequently (the exact escapes me right now, i'll look it up later) is followed by a line saying that if an enemy should not wish to fight, do not force war upon them.

the radical islamists aren't just a threat to "the non-muslim world" it would seem - they're a big threat to normal practicing muslims who just want to live their lives without being accused of "following in the footsteps of osama bin laden," a suggestion that would offend most here in the west. if you want a real look at how muslims view islamist terrorists, i suggest you look for muslim, and not christian, sources. oh by the way eve - i love that dylan thomas quote. he's one of my faves!

Do I believe we needed to be in Afghanistan? Yes. In Iraq? No. We didn't think things through, didn't have an endgame and now we're stuck there and our men and women are dying for a cause that confuses most people. I'm not arguing that the UN is the answer, but it's AN answer. Right now we're doing nothing about Darfur. Changes are necessary in the structure of the United Nations but at least it's a way to address what's going on. Also, the situations that you referenced are all very different; you can't put Darfur and Cuba in the same box (and we've never handled Cuba effectively or correctly).

a peacekeeping force, for one thing - a sort of "military solution," i suppose, but in a situation where massive amounts of murders, deaths from starvation and illness, rapes, displacements, etc. are occurring (sponsored by the state), we're past the point of "just talking." the peace agreement is a mess. the US has to get involved in this. safety for the innocents who are being killed in this conflict is the priority. the UN also needs to enforce its sanctions on sudan, businesses should divest funds from sudan, and we basically just need to raise awareness about the atrocities occurring so that the international community - and america wields tremendous power here - can put as much pressure as possible on sudan to rein in janjaweed. www.savedarfur.org

And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.' Then the righteous will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?' And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.' Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.' Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs? He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.' - Matthew 25:32-45 It's not that people were necessarily opposed to "action" regarding Iraq, etc. It's that military action is not always (or often, I believe) the right solution.

If what is happening in Darfur and our response/lack of response to it doesn't outrage you - wake up. I saw Paul Rusesabagina speak back in October. It was incredible - what a man. He speaks very frankly and his message is powerful.

both excellent points, eve. i was about to say that chick tracts are not the best way to foster discussion on subjects such as these. as a catholic, i am often disgusted with the way he portrays catholicism. although i know far less about islam, i know enough and have enough experience reading these tracts to know that muslims must be equally or more offended, given some of the outrageous claims and fallacies that even i can spot. have a little respect - that's the only way you're ever going to get a good dialogue. and saying that god is not sinless/does not sin is theologically correct - it has echoes of what thomas aquinas meant when he said that "god does not exist." rather than being a nietzschean statement of atheism, it was a testament of faith - that god does not exist because god IS existence. all existing things have an essence; the essence of the divine is TO exist. mohammad, thank you for being here.

you should also choose candidates based upon their effectiveness or potential effectiveness in office. i would pretty much always vote for a candidate whose platform differed somewhat from my own beliefs, but whom i believed would be most effective in changing things for the better and making a positive difference, over one who claimed my beliefs but was/would be useless in office.

First of all, when we're talking about zealots and terrorists, remember that there is a semantic difference to make - "Muslims" are followers of Islam, and "ISLAMISTS" are radicals, jihadist terrorists. So, that out of the way: did you take a second to consider that most of the "no's" you noted as to why good Muslims "can't be good Americans" would also apply to Christians? Plus, the quote you attempted from the Koran was wrong (and I know because I have the book sitting open in front of me as I type). Ironically, the citation you made (I assume you were referring to the fourth sura?) refers to suicide - about how you shouldn't do it. In truth, some scholars of Islam believe that the Koran discourages the practice of taking multiple wives more than it encourages it. The passage that dictates the general policy on the subject for most of those who do take more than one wife says that a man may take up to four wives so long as he can treat them equally. And how is it possible to treat four wives equally? A few translations even make that very statement. Nevertheless, remember that freedom of religion means freedom for ALL religions, as well as for those who do not claim one (and those who claim more than one). "Say: My Lord has enjoined what is right. Turn your faces therefore towards every place where he is worshipped, and call upon him with sincere religion. As he created you, to Him you will return." - The Elevated Places (Sura 7:29)

haha... (well...actually i'm a green. repubs tend to love us...but i do vote dem in the bigger elections. green party represent!)

Well spoken. For now, goodnight, and for-ever, peace.

what this comes down to is: i like to think about things. i can still be a christian and imagine, and "imagine" in that wonderfully idealistic existential way that lennon describes. that's really all there is to it. for me, at least.

and just to clarify, i don't mean "make enemies" with you, i meant in the general sense - there is nothing but love and good intention here! i would never imply anything else. love, as always.

look, the song isn't even saying "there ISN'T a heaven." it's just softly making its point - what i said earlier. joy would be nothing without pain. i just think that it's a well done piece of art that deserves to be appreciated for what it is trying to convey - it's not a song to make enemies over. as for me, i'd be happy if the only thing that happened after death was what was promised in william cullen bryant's "thanatopsis" - that my body would lay down in the "great sephulcre" of the earth with kings and grandmothers and heroes and sinners, a part of the world. i am a christian; i believe there's much more than that. but life is just life. every day, even the worst, is a miracle - and yeah, i've had some almost unbearably awful ones. but they all got me here. and here is exactly where i should be.

because imagining theres no heaven is a kind of liberation - just a what if. what if all i had were the next few decades to exist, to fall in love, to learn and see? how much more would you be required to treasure life? in the end, that's all the song wants us to do - to value life as if we only had tomorrow. that is a kind of "uncomfortable" notion to begin with, i agree - but when you really embrace it, it's beautiful. i think it's absolutely humbling to value life that way - as if there was no heaven promised - as a christian. wouldn't it remind you of the phenomenal gift that life - at all - is? wouldnt you then thank God for every day?