givennewname Posted February 24, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 324 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/29/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/16/1964 Share Posted February 24, 2009 How do we define Hebrewness or Jewishness? Is it from the parents? At the moment, the state of Isreal defines a Jew by the person having a Jewish Mother, but the Bible had always traced a person's geneology by the patriacal line. We can see that this is how Ezra defined Jewishness, as many of the Jewish men in exile had taken foreign wives. Paul defined it by faith.. saying that the gentile has been grafted into the olive tree and that we have Father Abraham by faith.. can i have any opinions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest yod Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 How do we define Hebrewness or Jewishness? Is it from the parents? At the moment, the state of Isreal defines a Jew by the person having a Jewish Mother, but the Bible had always traced a person's geneology by the patriacal line. We can see that this is how Ezra defined Jewishness, as many of the Jewish men in exile had taken foreign wives. In my opinion (and it's only my opinion) if you can be murdered for being jewish, then you are jewish. In Nazi (National Socialist) Germany, they killed someone for having 1/8 jewish blood. Not many were clamoring to be defined as "jewish" in those days. Paul defined it by faith.. saying that the gentile has been grafted into the olive tree and that we have Father Abraham by faith.. can i have any opinions? Uh...no. That didn't happen. No gentiles were ever declared jewish by Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 How do we define Hebrewness or Jewishness? Is it from the parents? At the moment, the state of Isreal defines a Jew by the person having a Jewish Mother, but the Bible had always traced a person's geneology by the patriacal line. We can see that this is how Ezra defined Jewishness, as many of the Jewish men in exile had taken foreign wives. Paul defined it by faith.. saying that the gentile has been grafted into the olive tree and that we have Father Abraham by faith.. can i have any opinions? Jewishness has alwasy been determined by the Mother. It was tribal lineage and property rights that went through the Father in Bible days. That is why geneaologies only mentioned the fathers and their sons. Geneaologies determined who had the right to live on which parcel of land. The reason Jewishness goes through the mother is that the identity of the mother of a child cannot be questioned whereas it is harder in some circumstances to determine who the father is. This is especially true if a married woman had become pregnant through rape or promiscuity. Paul circumcised Timothy who had a Jewish mother but a Gentile father. Paul did not define Jewishness by faith. That is not what the olive tree metaphor is about. Christians are not "Jews" by faith and the Bible makes no such claim. Paul is talking about the Gentiles being grafted into Israel by faith. Being grafted into Israel does not mean that you are grafted into the Jewish people and it certainly does not mean that you are "spiritually Jewish" though many have tried to force that notion on to Paul's teachings. The olive tree metaphor describes the relationship that Gentile believers have with the Jewish people. The wild olive branches are grafted into the cultivated olive tree. They do not become cultivated branches. They don't lose their identity in the cultivated olive tree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLord's Posted February 27, 2009 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 3 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/26/2009 Status: Offline Share Posted February 27, 2009 How do we define Hebrewness or Jewishness? Is it from the parents? At the moment, the state of Isreal defines a Jew by the person having a Jewish Mother, but the Bible had always traced a person's geneology by the patriacal line. We can see that this is how Ezra defined Jewishness, as many of the Jewish men in exile had taken foreign wives. Paul defined it by faith.. saying that the gentile has been grafted into the olive tree and that we have Father Abraham by faith.. can i have any opinions? Reply: Jesus is our brother, since we do His will and the will of His Father. His Father is the God of the Jews. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever- Jesus is a Jew. Jesus' sisters and brothers then must be Jews.Since we are of the same family. His Father is the God of the Jews and has become our Father as well through Him. So God is our Father and Jesus is our brother and we are all brothers and sisters in Jesus and we are all one big happy family. Even in the Old Testament the followers of our God, Jesus' Father, if they strayed and followed other gods (idols), if they repented and turned back to God were accepted again back into God's family. We all came from Noah, who was God's, if we go back far enough.We have Noah as our ancestor. He was a follower of God. So even if some of Noah's descendents went away from God and served idols for a time, when drawn back to God by His mercy and grace are accepted back into the happy family of God. So no matter how many years have passed since Noah, we who are His descendents are God's people who have turned our hearts to Him and believe in His testimony about His only begotten Son Jesus Christ, Yeshua Meshiach. We have turned to Him to do His will. So I think really we are all Jews really who believe in Jesus and follow Him. We are considered to be Messianic Jews because we believe in God's testimony about His Son and do not call God a liar, but believe His testimony. The Jews, followers of God our Father that do not believe our God's testimony about His only begotten Son and make God out to be a liar, as the New Testament says, must repent and accept God's plan for salvation. That is what I believe to be so, at this point in my walk with Jesus. I may always, I may not. God's will be done. God is faithful as the scripture says, "All Israel shall be saved". Love in Jesus TheLord's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Reply: Jesus is our brother, since we do His will and the will of His Father. His Father is the God of the Jews. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever- Jesus is a Jew. Jesus' sisters and brothers then must be Jews.Since we are of the same family. His Father is the God of the Jews and has become our Father as well through Him. So God is our Father and Jesus is our brother and we are all brothers and sisters in Jesus and we are all one big happy family. This is only half right. Jesus is a Jew, but that does not make us Jews. Jesus is a physical Jew by virtue of being a descendent of Jacob and Judah. The Bible never refers to the Church in terms likening Christians to Jews. The Bible ALWAYS defines "Jew" in terms of physical lineage 100% of the time, without exception. The Bible never spiritualizes it the term "Jew" to refer to Christians. So I think really we are all Jews really who believe in Jesus and follow Him.Sorry, but that is not supported in Scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick-Parker Posted February 28, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 200 Topics Per Day: 0.23 Content Count: 4,271 Content Per Day: 4.95 Reputation: 1,855 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/17/2021 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/03/1955 Share Posted February 28, 2009 I'm not a Jew. I am a gentile, called to Christ by God. The Bible refers to us, in Numbers and elsewhere, as "strangers." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
givennewname Posted February 28, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 324 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/29/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/16/1964 Author Share Posted February 28, 2009 Reply: Jesus is our brother, since we do His will and the will of His Father. His Father is the God of the Jews. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever- Jesus is a Jew. Jesus' sisters and brothers then must be Jews.Since we are of the same family. His Father is the God of the Jews and has become our Father as well through Him. So God is our Father and Jesus is our brother and we are all brothers and sisters in Jesus and we are all one big happy family. This is only half right. Jesus is a Jew, but that does not make us Jews. Jesus is a physical Jew by virtue of being a descendent of Jacob and Judah. The Bible never refers to the Church in terms likening Christians to Jews. The Bible ALWAYS defines "Jew" in terms of physical lineage 100% of the time, without exception. The Bible never spiritualizes it the term "Jew" to refer to Christians. Rom 4:12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision. Rom 4:13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith. Rom 4:14 For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none Rom 4:16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and thou, being a wild olive, wast grafted in among them, and didst become partaker with them of the root of the fatness of the olive tree; Rom 11:18 glory not over the branches: but if thou gloriest, it is not thou that bearest the root, but the root thee. Rom 11:24 For if thou wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and wast grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree; how much more shall these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in; Abraham is our Father through Father.. Jesus himself say that God can raised up sons of Abraham from the stones.. and that what is important is not geneology but faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted February 28, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted February 28, 2009 We are grafted into Israel, true. But we are still wild branches. That doesn't change. We are enjoined into them, but we don't receive new DNA. We become adopted children under a New Covenant. But we are not children of the Old Covenant. Only the Jews belong to the Old Covenant (and in receiving Yeshua as Messiah they too become a part of the New Covenant). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 Reply: Jesus is our brother, since we do His will and the will of His Father. His Father is the God of the Jews. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever- Jesus is a Jew. Jesus' sisters and brothers then must be Jews.Since we are of the same family. His Father is the God of the Jews and has become our Father as well through Him. So God is our Father and Jesus is our brother and we are all brothers and sisters in Jesus and we are all one big happy family. This is only half right. Jesus is a Jew, but that does not make us Jews. Jesus is a physical Jew by virtue of being a descendent of Jacob and Judah. The Bible never refers to the Church in terms likening Christians to Jews. The Bible ALWAYS defines "Jew" in terms of physical lineage 100% of the time, without exception. The Bible never spiritualizes it the term "Jew" to refer to Christians. Rom 4:12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision. Rom 4:13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith. Rom 4:14 For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none Rom 4:16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and thou, being a wild olive, wast grafted in among them, and didst become partaker with them of the root of the fatness of the olive tree; Rom 11:18 glory not over the branches: but if thou gloriest, it is not thou that bearest the root, but the root thee. Rom 11:24 For if thou wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and wast grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree; how much more shall these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in; Abraham is our Father through Father.. Jesus himself say that God can raised up sons of Abraham from the stones.. and that what is important is not geneology but faith. Being a descendent of Abraham is not the same as being Jewish. Jews are a physical, not spiritual people. Gentiles are grafted into Israel but that does not make them Jewish, spiritual or otherwise. They are simply descendents of Abraham by faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arrowfromgod Posted February 28, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 376 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/03/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/30/1962 Share Posted February 28, 2009 How do we define Hebrewness or Jewishness? Is it from the parents? At the moment, the state of Isreal defines a Jew by the person having a Jewish Mother, but the Bible had always traced a person's geneology by the patriacal line. We can see that this is how Ezra defined Jewishness, as many of the Jewish men in exile had taken foreign wives. In my opinion (and it's only my opinion) if you can be murdered for being jewish, then you are jewish. In Nazi (National Socialist) Germany, they killed someone for having 1/8 jewish blood. Not many were clamoring to be defined as "jewish" in those days. Paul defined it by faith.. saying that the gentile has been grafted into the olive tree and that we have Father Abraham by faith.. can i have any opinions? Uh...no. That didn't happen. No gentiles were ever declared jewish by Paul. i agree yod ,,, we are partakers and adopted jews so to speak i guess but not jewish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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