Matthitjah Posted April 16, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.27 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 16, 2009 Brother, The central focus of his article, as I read it, is that men like Wilkerson are denigrating Obama and not giving him a chance. It is laced through the article. It is the opening thought, part of the body, and in the closing as summary. His closing thought is that we should watch Israel. In that regard, I agree. How this Prophecy plays into America quite likely could well be as a consequence to actions regarding the covenant land of Israel. Peace, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest yod Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 Will the country collapse under the weight of these economic programs and morally bankrupt policies? Probably not. Jeff is speaking as a Pastor and Teacher trying to encourage people to continue living daily without fear of the future. That is a good thing. We should all focus on the things we can do in front of us instead of worrying about things which we have little control over at these levels of power. But here's where I disagree with Doc Seif. When average Americans abdicate our lives to government then this is what we will get. And if our one-party system doesn't police itself (and there is no reason to think it will at this point) then we are going to fall quite quickly & far in just a few short years. Dr Seif thinks we'll survive but I'm not so sure it will resemble what we've known when we get there. There have been many times of great upheaval in our history but never when the entire world was so connected economically as now. I don't see the corruption of Washington getting any better with all the money being thrown around in political emergencies that the civilian population has to pay for; and the corruption of American society is almost complete in the large cities where the payoffs are going. As we continue the road of being an antagonist to Israel, we are challenging God to a battle that we will NOT win....but the end of that story was told already by Joel, Isaiah, Zechariah, etc. I sort of understand how Jeremiah must have felt knowing that Nebuchadnezzar was coming.... This "peace" agreement the world is working towards is the most dangerous position America has ever been in before God during our brief flash on the world stage of history and yet not many realize it Even daring to have that opinion these days can make one an enemy of The State according to our Homeland Security Director...and the man from Spain who runs the EU Still I do like Jeff's positive outlook and hopeful demeanor. I pray that he's right. My gut tells me "otherwise" is coming. Have a nice day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted April 16, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted April 16, 2009 His closing thought is that we should watch Israel. In that regard, I agree. How this Prophecy plays into America quite likely could well be as a consequence to actions regarding the covenant land of Israel. I had the same thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted April 16, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted April 16, 2009 Brother, The central focus of his article, as I read it, is that men like Wilkerson are denigrating Obama and not giving him a chance. It is laced through the article. It is the opening thought, part of the body, and in the closing as summary. His closing thought is that we should watch Israel. In that regard, I agree. How this Prophecy plays into America quite likely could well be as a consequence to actions regarding the covenant land of Israel. Peace, Dave I don't quite see it the same way. Jeff's remarks regarding President Obama were directed at the video made by J.R. Church. In terms of Dr Wilkerson's article, he simply noted that he had predicted an imminent apocalypse. Yod had remarked that he thought Jeff did this in an effort to remain positive. I suppose that could be true (it is not stated in the article). I have watched Jeff, and don't see him shirk from speaking the truth even when it is ugly. Jeff indicated that the reason he did not believe these predictions are true is because he is basing his observations on a more Biblical vision (watching what is happening in Israel). As we move toward the end, Israel will become the focus, and as we see prophecy fulfilled there, we will know the end is at hand. There is so much prophecy that we know for sure is true, I think we are safest when we focus on those. That is why I appreciate what Jeff said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted April 16, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted April 16, 2009 Here is a link to an atricle regarding pastor Wilkerson's prophecies that echo my thoughts on it: http://www.desiringgod.org/Blog/1670_Testi...rsons_Prophecy/ I think this discussion is good. In regards to the NT gift of prophecy we are told to take them to the church and have it evaluate them. So in a sense that is what we are doing. Clearly there is not universal agreement in the church as to the vailidity of the prophecy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted April 16, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.27 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 16, 2009 Here is a link to an atricle regarding pastor Wilkerson's prophecies that echo my thoughts on it: http://www.desiringgod.org/Blog/1670_Testi...rsons_Prophecy/ I think this discussion is good. In regards to the NT gift of prophecy we are told to take them to the church and have it evaluate them. So in a sense that is what we are doing. Clearly there is not universal agreement in the church as to the vailidity of the prophecy Brother, I would have to state that in regards to Israel it is Biblical to see that those who curse Israel will themselves be cursed. Going against Gods plan with regard to His covenant land is not a wise decision and will leave America in a compromised position of standing opposed to God. In this regard, I have already stated that I agree with Dr. Seif. I also see Dave Wilkerson as a respected Church Leader. He is not prone to flights of fancy and has a record of amazing accomplishments for the Kingdom. I agree and there will be a clear disagreement as there has always been. The only way we can surely test it is to wait and see. I didn't see Wilkerson's Prophecy as fearful at all, he was stating something that to me is as clear as a spring day. America is and has been slouching towards bringing Judgement upon her own head. I actually found it refreshing because I was beginning to wonder when a Leader in the Church would boldly step forward and state the obvious. As much as you saw it bold for Dr. Seif to state his opinion I saw it bold for Dave Wilkerson to speak forth the Truth of what he felt was coming instead of continueing down the path of the God will Bless America crowd. Peace, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted April 17, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted April 17, 2009 Here is a link to an atricle regarding pastor Wilkerson's prophecies that echo my thoughts on it: http://www.desiringgod.org/Blog/1670_Testi...rsons_Prophecy/ I think this discussion is good. In regards to the NT gift of prophecy we are told to take them to the church and have it evaluate them. So in a sense that is what we are doing. Clearly there is not universal agreement in the church as to the vailidity of the prophecy Brother, I would have to state that in regards to Israel it is Biblical to see that those who curse Israel will themselves be cursed. Going against Gods plan with regard to His covenant land is not a wise decision and will leave America in a compromised position of standing opposed to God. In this regard, I have already stated that I agree with Dr. Seif. I also see Dave Wilkerson as a respected Church Leader. He is not prone to flights of fancy and has a record of amazing accomplishments for the Kingdom. I agree and there will be a clear disagreement as there has always been. The only way we can surely test it is to wait and see. I didn't see Wilkerson's Prophecy as fearful at all, he was stating something that to me is as clear as a spring day. America is and has been slouching towards bringing Judgement upon her own head. I actually found it refreshing because I was beginning to wonder when a Leader in the Church would boldly step forward and state the obvious. As much as you saw it bold for Dr. Seif to state his opinion I saw it bold for Dave Wilkerson to speak forth the Truth of what he felt was coming instead of continueing down the path of the God will Bless America crowd. Peace, Dave And that is the issue. Two respected men of God who claim to be hearing different things from the Holy Spirit. That is why I primarily look at things through the lens of the Word only. Any other prophecy thats given, I compare to the word. If it contradicts the word, I ignore it. It if goes beyond what the word says, I tend to be open but very cautious. In this case, what Dr. Wilkerson said did not seem to be a word from God to me. I did not sense the Spirit speaking though it. Will judgment come. Certainly. We know it will come upon the whole earth. The scriptures tell us that. But whether it will come soon (whatever that means) or 1000 years form now does not matter. One of the last things Jesus told his disciples was this: Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age." (Matthew 28:19-20 CSB) This is the mission we have been given. Right before He ascended, the disciples got side-tracked worrying about when certan future events would occur: So when they had come together, they asked Him, "Lord, at this time are You restoring the kingdom to Israel?" (Acts 1:6 CSB) Jesus said this in response: He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or periods that the Father has set by His own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." (Act 1:7-8 CSB) So for me personally, I don't spend much time trying to guess when apocalytipc events are going to occur. They simply get me off mission. Maybe for others they view these warnings of impending catastrophe as part of the way they fulfill that mission. And as John Piper said in his atricle, if some get scared as a result and check out the faith, that is good. But for me the mission is clear. Don't worry about this other stuff. Take the power you have been given and take responsibility for your Jerusalem and make sure every man, woman, and child has repeated opportunities to respond to the life-changing reality of Jesus Christ. I leave the impending apocalypse to God. This is the path God has called me to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted April 17, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted April 17, 2009 And that is the issue. Two respected men of God who claim to be hearing different things from the Holy Spirit. Question: Where did Dr. Seif claim that what he wrote came from the Holy Spirit? I know he asked, "What is the Lord saying?" But having done so, all I see is his opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted April 17, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted April 17, 2009 Will judgment come. Certainly. We know it will come upon the whole earth. The scriptures tell us that. But whether it will come soon (whatever that means) or 1000 years form now does not matter. I don't believe Wilkerson ever claimed the riots to be associated with the final judgment on the earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted April 17, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted April 17, 2009 And that is the issue. Two respected men of God who claim to be hearing different things from the Holy Spirit. Question: Where did Dr. Seif claim that what he wrote came from the Holy Spirit? I know he asked, "What is the Lord saying?" But having done so, all I see is his opinion. He claims that what he is hearing is coming from the Word, which was inspired by the Holy Spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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