EricH Posted April 17, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted April 17, 2009 Will judgment come. Certainly. We know it will come upon the whole earth. The scriptures tell us that. But whether it will come soon (whatever that means) or 1000 years form now does not matter. I don't believe Wilkerson ever claimed the riots to be associated with the final judgment on the earth. OK, but the core issue remains the same Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted April 17, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted April 17, 2009 (edited) He claims that what he is hearing is coming from the Word, which was inspired by the Holy Spirit. So the real debate here is whether or not the gifts of the Spirit are still active today or not. Edited April 17, 2009 by nebula Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted April 17, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted April 17, 2009 He claims that what he is hearing is coming from the Word, which was inspired by the Holy Spirit. So the real debate here is whether or not the gifts of the Spirit are still active today or not. Not at all. In the NT, the gift of prophecy was not inerrant or absolute. Paul told us this: Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should evaluate. (1Corinthians 14:29 CSB) In the OT people were not given the opportunity to evaluate what the prophets said. In the OT, not listening to a prophet was equivalent to disobeying God. In addition, in the OT, a prophet who said something false was put to death. Not so with those who have the NT gift of prophecy. We have several examples in the book of Acts where someone with the NT gift of prophecy spoke, and it was either not completely accurate, or the person listening did not feel the need to heed what was said. For example in Acts 21:4: So we found some disciples and stayed there seven days. They said to Paul through the Spirit not to go to Jerusalem. (Acts 21:4 CSB) Paul did not feel bound to listen to them (in fact he did not). He was not accused of disobeying God, nor were the folks who made the prophecy stoned for being wrong. So, the NT gift of prophecy seems to be a spontaneous revelation made by the Holy Spirit to an individual. These are not inerrant (just like the gift of teaching is not inerrant); are subject to being misunderstood by the individual who receives them; and can be evaluated by the church to determine if they are pertinent for the church. If they are deemed not appropriate, this says nothing bad about the person who made the prophecy. They may simply have not heard God correctly (just as a person with the gift of teaching may not completely comprehend a passage correctly). We are always safest when we rub these declarations up against scripture, which is inerrant. So the discussion we are having is good. It is the process God asked the church to go through when someone makes a declaration like this. Clearly other good men of God have not heard God the same way. They have not based their objections on the fact that this NT gift of prophecy no longer operates. They have done so based on their understanding of the Word of God, and how it seems to them some elements in Pastor Wilkerson's vision may not line up with that understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted April 17, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted April 17, 2009 Consider this: Acts 11:27-30 27 And in these days prophets came from Jerusalem to Antioch. 28 Then one of them, named Agabus, stood up and showed by the Spirit that there was going to be a great famine throughout all the world, which also happened in the days of Claudius Caesar. 29 Then the disciples, each according to his ability, determined to send relief to the brethren dwelling in Judea. 30 This they also did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul. Do you believe it possible for a prophetic word like this to be given today? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted April 17, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted April 17, 2009 Consider this: Acts 11:27-30 27 And in these days prophets came from Jerusalem to Antioch. 28 Then one of them, named Agabus, stood up and showed by the Spirit that there was going to be a great famine throughout all the world, which also happened in the days of Claudius Caesar. 29 Then the disciples, each according to his ability, determined to send relief to the brethren dwelling in Judea. 30 This they also did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul. Do you believe it possible for a prophetic word like this to be given today? See my explanation above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted April 17, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted April 17, 2009 But in the account, only one prophet prophesied the famine. There is no mention of confirmation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted April 17, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted April 17, 2009 But in the account, only one prophet prophesied the famine. There is no mention of confirmation. I'm not understanding the point you are trying to make. It's probably me being dense. Clearly the church in this case believed the peophecy was valid. In other cases they did not. We have the commands in 1 Corinthians on how the church is to deal with the NT gift of Prophecy. The number of people making the prophecy is certainly not an issue. The question is have they heard God accurately? Is it your belief that the NT gift of prophecy is inerrant and should not be evaluated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted April 17, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.27 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 17, 2009 Brother Eric, In league with what nebula has posted regarding Agabus, please explain how David Wilkersons Prophetic warning differed. Very clearly you are drawing the line at a couple of places and so are the men you've quoted in the links. You are saying that it could cause panic and fear and draw the Faithful and others away from the central message of the Gospel. I don't see it the same way at all. I see it more with regard to the section of Acts now quoted. You appear to be saying that because it is a warning of disaster to come and not the general disaster due to come upon the world that it's not valid. I believe that Dr. Seif and the other fellow that you have quoted have taken it into the realm of this general consensus as well. I also believe that Dr. Seif see's it as a discussion of the situation in this Nation and the Politics of our Leaders and thast is why he is discounting it. He clearly feels that folks like the two he noted are upset because of who's been Elected when clearly that has nothing to do with what Wilkerson said. We see that Agabus had the prophetic gifting in Acts 21 as well when he spoke to Paul about what would befall him in Jerusalem. I do not believe that Agabus in Acts 21 was trying to prevent Paul from going to Jerusalem, rather he was telling him what would come to pass. Paul himself asked the people not to weep but to understand that this was Gods Will. We see Agabus in Chapter 11 doing the same thing, revealing what would and did indeed come to pass. Dave Wilkersons pattern is quite similar so please explain where it departs from Scripture? I believe that this is where you have sister Nebula confused as well. I don't see Wilkerson trying to scare anyone. In fact he is imploring them to be prepared just like the Church did in the days of Agabus. Agabus told no one to be prepared, at least as far as scripture states, but it is clear that in examining the Prophecy the Church determined it to hold fast. They then sent preparations for the disaster. I don't really see the difference in Wilkerson urging people to be prepared. Agabuses prophecy would have to pass the same tests you are applying to Dave Wilkersons prophecy. The Church saw fit in that day to tell the people concerned and to prepare them. Peace, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted April 17, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.27 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 17, 2009 Grace to you, Here are the key words of Dave Wilkersons statement; "I have unburdened my soul to you. Do with the message as you choose." Peace, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest yod Posted April 17, 2009 Share Posted April 17, 2009 The question is have they heard God accurately? Is it your belief that the NT gift of prophecy is inerrant and should not be evaluated? And since you are a pastor, that would and should be your foremost apprehension. I suppose the only answer to your question in this specific case is that there are many who trust that Pastor Wilkerson has shown himself to be faithful in handling the Word over these last 50 years. Many people trust him not to say something as if "from the Lord" unless he is VERY sure that it is. I've got friends under his ministry that produce a LOT of fruit. They have known and trust Pastor Wilkerson for many years. They are getting prepared. I don't see anything wrong with being prepared. Pastor Wilkerson seemed to balance being an alarmist with being a realist (if indeed this really happens) It seems to me that this one has been judged by the "kehilah" (Assembly or church, if you will) or at least by those who are getting prepared.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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