Are You Lost?

[rstrats]

shiloh357,

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[Guest shiloh357]

shiloh357,

re:

[rstrats]

shiloh357,

re:

[Guest shiloh357]

You haven

[nChrist]

Oe thing I don't understand is when you ask someone who hasn't been saved if they are going to Heaven, they always use the good/bad behaviour criteria as a basis for their answer.

I don't understand why people want to go to Heaven in the first place.

There is much more than just this short life. Our Creator designed us for Eternity, and we will spend Eternity in either Heaven or hell. God doesn't want any person to spend Eternity in hell, so He sent His Son to die on the Cross in payment for our sins and told us how to be rescued from from the penalties that we deserve for our disobedience and sin. If we place our faith in Jesus Christ and accept Him as the Lord over our lives, we are Saved. Lord is His rightful place anyway whether we accept Him or reject Him. If we reject Him, He will be our Righteous Judge, and He will pronounce the sentence of condemnation to the Eternal fires of hell.

Asking about why we would like to go to heaven could be compared to why we want to live in this short life. However, the contrast is dramatic. One is like the blink of an eye compared to Eternity. We can also make comparisons in this short life between living it with Jesus Christ or without Him. Again, the contrast is dramatic. Great joy and peace is added to this life if we live it with Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. God is the only One who will never fail us, lie to us, leave us, or forsake us. Everything about life is more abundant if we live it with Christ and in Christ. I'm not talking about the things of this world, rather the priceless and timeless riches of Christ. We can experience many of His Blessings in this short life, but a Christian's real Citizenship and Inheritance awaits in Heaven as Children of the King Of Kings.

God gives us glimpses of what Heaven will be like in His Word, and I want to share a few of my favorite portions of Scripture with you.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 ASV 13 But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them that fall asleep; that ye sorrow not, even as the rest, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; 17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:50-58 ASV 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the power of sin is the law: 57 but thanks be to God, who giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labor is not vain in the Lord.

Revelation 21:4-23 ASV 4 and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away. 5 And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true. 6 And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death. 9 And there came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls, who were laden with the seven last plagues; and he spake with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the wife of the Lamb. 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God: her light was like unto a stone most precious, as it were a jasper stone, clear as crystal: 12 having a wall great and high; having twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 on the east were three gates; and on the north three gates; and on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 And he that spake with me had for a measure a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length thereof is as great as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs: the length and the breadth and the height thereof are equal. 17 And he measured the wall thereof, a hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel. 18 And the building of the wall thereof was jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto pure glass. 19 The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, chalcedony; the fourth, emerald; 20 the fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, topaz; the tenth, chrysoprase; the eleventh, jacinth; the twelfth, amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; each one of the several gates was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass. 22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God the Almighty, and the Lamb, are the temple thereof. 23 And the city hath no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine upon it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the lamp thereof is the Lamb.

Revelation 22:1-8 ASV 1 And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2 in the midst of the street thereof. And on this side of the river and on that was the tree of life, bearing twelve manner of fruits, yielding its fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no curse any more: and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be therein: and his servants shall serve him; 4 and they shall see his face; and his name shall be on their foreheads. 5 And there shall be night no more; and they need no light of lamp, neither light of sun; for the Lord God shall give them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. 6 And he said unto me, These words are faithful and true: and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angels to show unto his servants the things which must shortly come to pass. 7 And behold, I come quickly. Blessed is he that keepeth the words of the prophecy of this book. 8 And I John am he that heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel that showed me these things.

I hope this helps you some. Just know that there is much more than just this short life.

nChrist

[Guest shiloh357]

And you heard this where? You are exercising your free will to accept or not accept Christ. Why would heaven not have free will - it's the result of free will.

My understanding is that there is no sin in Heaven, taking away the ability to choose sin would take away free will wouldn't it?

No, it's the opposite. As Christians, we struggle against sin. It is our will not to sin. Sometimes, we lose individual struggles against sin. In this life, we still have feet of clay and are still plagued with sins of the past and that is part of the process of being sancftifed and delivered from those old habits and attitudes.

When sin is finally eradicated, it will the ultimate realization of our free will, not the absence of it. We can exercise our free will without being hampered by the obstacle of temptation and the old sin nature.

You are working from the mistaken premise that God gives us the choice to sin or not. In reality, He doesn't. The Bible is replete with commandments not to flee from sin, to be holy and to not give sin a place in our lives. A commandment is the antithesis of "choice." If we choose to exercise our free will and disobey, there are consequences for that.

[nChrist]

Romans 10:17-21 ASV So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. 18 But I say, Did they not hear? Yea, verily, Their sound went out into all the earth, And their words unto the ends of the world. 19 But I say, Did Israel not know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy with that which is no nation, With a nation void of understanding will I anger you. 20 And Isaiah is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I became manifest unto them that asked not of me. 21 But as to Israel he saith, All the day long did I spread out my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

God's Word proves itself with mountains of evidence from cover to cover. There are also mountains of evidence outside of the Holy Bible that prove it is True. In fact, God's Word is the ultimate and absolute Truth that is the measurement of all other Truth. God's Word stands as the final authority in all things because it is The Creator's Revelation to mankind. It's easy to believe God's Word because His Words make perfect sense. This is why faith comes from Hearing and Hearing by the Word of God.

God's Word is the only accurate history of mankind and the universe. It stands alone as the Creator's Instructions to us and what He wants us to know. The future is already recorded in God's Word for all to read, and everything will come to pass exactly as it is written in the Holy Bible. Many prophecies of the Holy Bible have already been fulfilled perfectly, just as God said that they would. I firmly believe that we live in a time where the end of this Age of Grace draws near. Only God knows the time, but He has given us signs to look for in His Word. There is Bible Prophecy yet to be fulfilled, and it will involve all of mankind. The time may be growing short for the lost to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour.

nChrist

[Guest shiloh357]

What I disagree with is the idea that beliefs are chosen by a conscious process. As demonstration I ask you the same question that Believer1997 hasn't answered: Can you consciously choose to believe that putting your hand on a hot stove is beneficial and if you can, how long do you think that belief would last?

The very word "belief" presupposes conscious choice. People start sentences with "I believe..." I have never heard the words "belief" or "believe" used in the context of an unconscious act.

The problem is that the question is faulty from the start. I cannot consciously belief that it would be beneficial to touch the hot stove, because I have, in the past felt what happened to me if did touch the hot stove. The problem is that what you are talking about is not a case of "belief."

Because I have already touched a hot stove in the past, I know that it would not be beneficial. So it is not a case of believing or not believing. I KNOW that I should not touch a hot stove. No, amount of believing the opposite will change what I know to be true, thus believing one thing in the light of knowledge of the opposite is irrational.

[Guest shiloh357]

And you heard this where? You are exercising your free will to accept or not accept Christ. Why would heaven not have free will - it's the result of free will.

My understanding is that there is no sin in Heaven, taking away the ability to choose sin would take away free will wouldn't it?

No, it's the opposite. As Christians, we struggle against sin. It is our will not to sin. Sometimes, we lose individual struggles against sin. In this life, we still have feet of clay and are still plagued with sins of the past and that is part of the process of being sancftifed and delivered from those old habits and attitudes.

When sin is finally eradicated, it will the ultimate realization of our free will, not the absence of it. We can exercise our free will without being hampered by the obstacle of temptation and the old sin nature.

You are working from the mistaken premise that God gives us the choice to sin or not. In reality, He doesn't. The Bible is replete with commandments not to flee from sin, to be holy and to not give sin a place in our lives. A commandment is the antithesis of "choice." If we choose to exercise our free will and disobey, there are consequences for that.

Does sin serve a purpose then? If sin isn't necessary in Heaven, why is it necessary on earth?

It seems only evil and suffering come from sin, if sin is unnecessary then the evil and suffering that arises from it is also unnecessary. Would you call a being that allowed unnecessary evil and suffering a good or just being?

Who said it was necessary on earth. Sin is not necessary at all.

The problem is that man burns the candle at both ends. Man wants to reject God and do things his own way. He wants God to remain out of the picture. After man makes a mess of things can creates war, poverty, crime oppression, he turns around and challenges God's integrity for letting these thnigs happen. Man makes a mess of things, but wants to hold God accountable for allowing to happen, and thus avoid accountability for his own deeds.

[Guest shiloh357]

Oe thing I don't understand is when you ask someone who hasn't been saved if they are going to Heaven, they always use the good/bad behaviour criteria as a basis for their answer.

I don't understand why people want to go to Heaven in the first place.

There is much more than just this short life. Our Creator designed us for Eternity, and we will spend Eternity in either Heaven or hell. God doesn't want any person to spend Eternity in hell, so He sent His Son to die on the Cross in payment for our sins and told us how to be rescued from from the penalties that we deserve for our disobedience and sin.

How does murdering an innocent man pay for for the sins of another? If Bob killed Joe, would Bob be rescued from the the penalty for that crime if we killed Tom in his place? Would that be just?

Mankind, all of mankind is under a sentence of death. All men are born sinners. Sin is passed down to all men from Adam. It is a condition of enmity with God into which we are born. Mankind cannot redeem Himself before God. We are helpless before God to change anything about spiritual condition.

What Jesus did on the cross was satisfy God's judgment. He paid the ransom with his own life and stood as man's representative head before God died on our behalf.

Is it just? No. Justice would have been for God to destroy you. From the standpoint of God's justice you deserved to be suffer what Jesus suffered. That was YOUR cross Jesus died on. God would be within his legal rights to snuff you out. Instead, God has, in his grace, offered you an opportunity to not have to face judgment. He is willing, on the basis of Christ did on the cross, to settle the account with you now and He offers you eternal life.