loosing salvation

[Guest lovinghim4ever]

True . . . parents disown their children, but not if they truly love them with the love of God.

True love from God does not disown His own.

When someone walks away from God, are they still considered, "His own"?

If you want to use the analogy of parents and children, I can show you news article after news article where parents abused, butchered, and abandoned their children.

God uses analogy of parents and children.

He calls Himself our Father.

The difference between His love and earthly father love is that His love is not corrupted by the human aspect.

[godrulz]

You see, every example that has been given so far points to those who have not completely turned from Christ. I have not read in any of the posts where anyone has, in their heart, completely believed that there is no God. Even in my backslidden years, I knew God was real, but I just didn't want to obey, but rather, fulfill the desires of my flesh. Yet, there are those who once were His, that have said in their heart that there is no God. People just don't want to believe that this can happen, where I do. The reason is, if it is true, then it can happen to them and they are not willing to accept this possibility.

If anyone needs proof of that, all they need to do is go to The Outer Court. There are people who pass through there the all time stating, "I once believed but now I know it was a lie".

And as for parents disowning their children, it happens all the time. Just because we can't fathom the thought of a parent breaking off all ties with their child, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

True . . . parents disown their children, but not if they truly love them with the love of God.

True love from God does not disown His own.

Again, there is scripture were we are told that names will be removed from the Book of Life. Is this not God doing so?

I'll surely get blasted for this, but I believe that everyone's name is written in the Book of Life at the moment we are born to life here on earth.

Otherwise, those who die as infants, babies, and small children will go to hell without a chance to know God.

And, I don't believe God would allow us to be born here just to send us to hell.

However, if someone grows to the age of accountability (which I believe is different for each individual)

but NEVER accepts Jesus as Savior before they die that's when their name will be blotted out of the Book of Life.

How about this theory? Babies are added to the Book if and when they die (based on their non-rejection of Christ). The rest of us are added if and when we believe, not in eternity past. We become elect when we believe, not the Calvinistic eternal, decretal, deterministic system (caste system essentially where God arbitrarily saves some, but damns many others He could save if He only willed it...how is this impartial love and for His glory and our good?!). Those who go on to apostasy have their names blotted out (vs OSAS) as Scripture warns. God responds to contingent reality as it unfolds (He experiences an endless duration of unidirectional time, not Platonic, philosophical eternal now simultaneity).

And you are worried about getting blasted? What about me, the non-traditionalist (some tradition is true, but others is unbiblical).

[godrulz]

True . . . parents disown their children, but not if they truly love them with the love of God.

True love from God does not disown His own.

When someone walks away from God, are they still considered, "His own"?

If you want to use the analogy of parents and children, I can show you news article after news article where parents abused, butchered, and abandoned their children.

Human families are analagous to, not identical with, God's family. Another apt analogy is marriage (actually used in Eph. 5 about Christ/church), so divorce does sever the relationship (unlike a wayward child). Analogies are limited and can be played for either side. What does the Bible teach? It teaches the conditional vs unconditional security of the believer (two parties in reconciliation) AND the possibility of falling away/apostasy/reversion to a former state of unbelief (biblical and anecdotal e.g. support this warning/possibility).

[godrulz]

True . . . parents disown their children, but not if they truly love them with the love of God.

True love from God does not disown His own.

When someone walks away from God, are they still considered, "His own"?

If you want to use the analogy of parents and children, I can show you news article after news article where parents abused, butchered, and abandoned their children.

God uses analogy of parents and children.

He calls Himself our Father.

The difference between His love and earthly father love is that His love is not corrupted by the human aspect.

God's love is immeasurable, but their are conditions of entering into and maintaining a relationship. The Greek present tenses for faith support continuance in the faith/remaining/abiding. A faith that ceases is tantamount to unbelief and forfeiture of the privileges and promises that only apply to believers (those who believe and continue to believe). If a one time faith that later ceases is all that is needed, past tenses vs continuous present tenses would be used. There are 'if....then' conditions in order for the reality to be true still. Jn. 3:16 vs Jn. 3:36; I Jn. 5:11-13. An apostate no longer has the Son who alone has life (not resident in us apart from Him).

[Rick-Parker]

I agree with you that just saying we believe in Jesus does not save us -- I said that, and MEANT that my whole life growing up. Yet I never turned away from my sin nature. I never submitted to Christ. I never allowed Him to work in me. In essence, I was never saved. The "offensive" part of the Gospel which is so watered down today is that we must actually allow God to CHANGE us, we must confess that we are totally dependent upon Him to do this because we cannot help ourselves, we are too weak; we must be totally humbled before our awesome God. Then we must set ourselves aside, and let HIM make the decisions and rule. Nobody wants to do this so the gospel has come down to: believe that all men sin, that we need Jesus to pay the penalty, that He did, and go on and do whatever you want because your insurance is paid up and you'll go to heaven when you die." I agree with you that something is missing there, and that many people who were told that belive they are Christians and will go to heaven and they won't -- they've taken the wide road. The sacrifice of self MUST be taken -- what God did physically, we MUST DO spiritually. He who loves his life will lose it, and He who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

I also agree that Christians are obedient to their Lord. But, I don't think it is their works of obedience which keep them saved -- we can only BE obedient when God is living through us -- and it is God in us which is the mark of our salvation. Galatians 3:2-5 says: "This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? Have you suffered so many things in vain -- if indeed it was in van? Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, do He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Romans 8:9-11 says, "So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is no His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you." Christians are those with the Spirit of God in them. That Spirit seals us for all eternity. That Spirit transforms us. 2 Corinthians 3:18 says, "But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, ARE BEING transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord." We do good now because we love God, and He is in us doing good. The Spirit is new, but the flesh is still weak. I know that often times that my initial reaction emotionally when things happen to me is still wrong -- in a sense, "self" never changes. That is why we DIE to self daily. And we die because we have the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit in us, transforming us. Galatians 2:20, my favorite passage in the Bible says, "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me, and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me." All good I now do, is God in me, it is not me but Him. 2 Corinthians 4:6-7 says, "For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us."

We are God's arms and hands, feet and legs, eyes and ears on this earth. He lives through us to love others, and as we cooperate with Him and LET Him live through us, He bears fruit. John 15:4-5 says: "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you,unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit, for without Me you can do nothing."

We are obedient only because Christ through the Holy Spirit is in us, and He is obedient through us. As we allow Him to work through the members of our body, He accomplishes His goals. How does this work in practical terms? I mean, how do we know we have the Spirit in us and that we aren't simply trying to earn our way to heaven? I've read on this thread of several who have feared for their salvation and wonder how obedient they have to be to make it count. This is my answer to that fear: in the flesh, we will always sin. The Christian life is learned to live in the Spirit. If when you sin, you feel bad about it, repent of it (for what true repentance looks like, see 2 Corinthians 7:9-11), and allow God to change that in you, then you are probably saved. If you don't even feel bad about it, because "Christ died for my sins, forgives me, and so I can do whatever I want to, because when I die I will go to heaven", then there is cause for worry. That would not be the Holy Spirit talking -- He would never allow that attitude to be part of a true Christian. If you WANT to be saved, realize that Jesus DID die for you, and that He ROSE again to take away the power of sin, and that He wants to live inside you to change you. Believe in His death and resurrection, allow Him in as Lord, and cling to Him in total dependence upon His ability to save you starting NOW -- NOT when you get to heaven, and His Spirit will come and dwell in you as a deposit guaranteeing your salvation. After that, you will be more concerned about growing in the faith than you will be about losing your salvation in terms of heaven.

The dire warnings in the Bible are to get you to look at your heart, to ensure you actually do turn away from works of the flesh to depend upon God, they are meant to show what it looks like to be a Christian (it looks like obedience), but that obedience MUST be properly motivated -- not out of fear of hell, but out of the Holy Spirit's work in you, if that makes sense. That is why the Bible says REPENT and believe -- not simply BELIEVE.

AWESOME!!

[pokemaughan]

True . . . parents disown their children, but not if they truly love them with the love of God.

True love from God does not disown His own.

When someone walks away from God, are they still considered, "His own"?

If you want to use the analogy of parents and children, I can show you news article after news article where parents abused, butchered, and abandoned their children.

God uses analogy of parents and children.

He calls Himself our Father.

The difference between His love and earthly father love is that His love is not corrupted by the human aspect.

I would love to agree with you because it sounds nice- but God is not just a father. He is a whole mess of things... King, shepard, guide, judge...

The truth is you could reason about these things all day, but when it comes down to it reason carries the least weight... it's Scripture that makes the call, not reasoning.

So lets focus on the titles of King and Judge for a moment.

Would it be fair and just that one who accepted Christ's atonement and then later walked away from it (i.e. became an atheist, backslid, etc.) and 'trampled underfoot the Son of God' was given the same 'reward', so to speak, as an honest Christ-follower who died with a heart after God?

If a heart, whom only God can judge, honestly hates God and loves itself, yet earlier in life was 'saved' is accepted into the kingdom along with a heart that yearns after God and hates ungodliness, would that be just?

There are passages that firmly assert that once you are saved you are always saved... if!... you continue to follow God. If! you continue in faithfulness. If! you work at and honestly pursue godliness over your own lusts. And there are passages that warn believers against ungodliness and unfaithfulness and backsliding and lukewarmth... not because you'll get a slap on the wrist when you get to heaven, but because our God is a just God. He did not spare the unfaithful and will not spare you, so continue in His kindness... Do not be proud, but fear... God is powerful and will not be mocked... He is to be feared first.

[kross]

Then why would Christ tell us differently?

Revelation 3:5

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

It seems to me that those who do not overcome will be removed, meaning that they were in the Book of Life at one point.

This passage doesn't say that JESUS will blot anyone out of the book of life. It is a promise that those who overcome will not be blotted out of the book of life. You have to reverse engineer it to say that it implies that there are those who will not persevere and will be blotted out. In this case, you can not do that.

What it's actually saying is that those who do not endure to the end or perservere will be blotted out.

Believe whatever you want, but that's what it says.

No it does not. What it says is that those who persevere to the end will not be blotted out. Read it. That is what it says.

What it says to you...

Ok, well let me ask you a question.

What will happen to those who do not perservere?

There's only one logical answer.

Yes, that answer is that their name is not written in the book of life.

JESUS is making an incrdible promise to those of this church who make it to the end. HE is telling them that even if HE rejects the entire church as a whole, HE will not reject those who persevere to the end. HIS specific promise to them is that HE will not blot their name out of the book of life for they are the saved of GOD. This is the promise of assurance to a group of people who are surrounded by those who are not the saved and who have no place in the book of life that even though they are amoungst those who may be rejected, they will not be rejected.

It is a great promise to HIS steadfast and loyal. It is not a warning that if they do not persevere, they will be blotted out for the book of life has been sealed since the day the foundation of the earth was laid until the Lamb opens it on judgement day.

enough back and forth for me on this point. You read it one way, I read it another and GOD will tell us more when the time comes.

Peace

[kross]

So if WE can be eternally lost after having received everlasting life, then JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF will finally be lost TOO because He dwells within each truly born-again Christian believer!! Then what a lugubrious & plodding NON-eternal "everlasting" relationship it will turn out to have been, yes? Saved today, lost tomorrow, "re-saved", then "re-lost", then...........I love it, Oh, I love it, but will all this play in Peoria?

Just as we deal with our children individually, God deals with His children individually.

We teach our children with the expectation that they will learn, grow, and mature.

As they grow we expect them to take on more responsibility according to their own

level of maturity, and as they take on more responsibility they are given more privileges.

When their responsibilities are not upheld their privileges are suspended, but our love for them is not.

We discipline them appropriately, but we do not disown them and kick them out of the family.

You are absolutely right. God will never kick us out of His family. Maybe you can help me understand something that is missing here. What if the child leaves and never returns, disowning the family and their name, forsaking his birthrights as if there was no family, as in being dead to him? Will the parents then force their will on the one who says they are dead to him?

You see, every example that has been given so far points to those who have not completely turned from Christ. I have not read in any of the posts where anyone has, in their heart, completely believed that there is no God. Even in my backslidden years, I knew God was real, but I just didn't want to obey, but rather, fulfill the desires of my flesh. Yet, there are those who once were His, that have said in their heart that there is no God. People just don't want to believe that this can happen, where I do. The reason is, if it is true, then it can happen to them and they are not willing to accept this possibility.

The child who forsakes the family, and treats it as though dead to him, is nontheless part of the family. However, in most cases where I have seen that happen, it is a snapshot of the present moment, and the child is angry about something, or hurt about something. God can work through that. In time that anger is buried so that the person may not even remember it, such as with my grandfather for 70 odd years. But, in his last month in the hospital, on his death bed, God put a Lutheran minister in the nursing home with him, the anger at God (actually at a clergyman) came out, and he was brought before God blameless. We never know what is or is not in a Christian's heart, but God does, and those who are truly saved, He WILL bring back. When we become Christians, we are given a new Spirit, and that Spirit DOES yearn to be saved, even when the flesh does not -- so it is not that God brings people kicking and screaming back into the kingdom. That is the way CS Lewis phrased what occured to him -- but he denounced God because God let his mom die. He was angry at God. He was surprised by joy when he was reunited with God because his salvation was real, and his spirit cried out for the joy of that salvation even as his flesh fought it.

I have also said that to be saved means that we have God living inside us. Anybody who would conclude intellectually, and maintain that belief even in death, was never saved to begin with because those who have the Holy Spirit in them would never make the claim that God is not real UNLESS at the moment they said it, they were angry with God. This is why we can never be a real judge of what is in the heart -- we just don't know all of the circumstances, and at times, we don't even know why we do things. I have also been through a period of backsliding. Also, within the last few months, I have doubted God's existence. But, I was angry at God because He wasn't answering my prayer as quickly as I wished, nor in the way I thought He would. I have confessed it, and repented of it, and am so happy that God and I are not happy. Where we don't know that the person ever turned back to God, I simply hope in the fact that I don't know everything, and it is possible that in the person's heart of hearts, they did (if I thought they'd been a Christian to begin with.) Nothing is ever hopeless -- we just won't KNOW until heaven. BUT, I do know that the Bible teaches that those indwelt by the Holy Spirit are Christians and that He was given them to guarantee change in this life, blameless-ness at the point of physical death, and a future in heaven. God keeps His word.

Rhonda

Rhonda Lou,

I love your spirit. Even if they will not listen to your theology, they should not be able to deny your testimony. You know GOD chose to save you and it was a specific choice of HIS to call you as an individual out of the world. The same is true for me.

ON the other hand, I have a brother who is saved. When he was holding a gun to his head to end his life, GOD spoke to him directly in a calm audible voice that simply said, "I have a plan for your life". He got saved 15 years later and to this day denies that GOD chose him before he chose GOD. Denies that GOD had this intention and that HE was specifically chosen for salvation by GOD.

I have another friend who was dying with a needle in his arm in an alley. An angel of the LORD appeared to him and told him that he would live and that GOD had a job for him. He is one of the most impressively annointed preachers of the gospel I know. But, he knows that he was chosen by GOD for salvation from before the foundations of the earth. He knows that he is the fullfillment of Romans 8:29&30. I fought against the doctrins of GOD choosing who HE saves for over two years as this man continued to show me scripture after scripture until I had no choice but to bow to the authority of that scripture.

No one can deny your testimony. Keep on tellin' it like it is. Because the scripture is very very clear. Those HE called, HE first predestined and HE first foreknew and after HE called them, HE glorified them and justified them and sanctified them. All of it was done from the very beginning. Then HE gave us HIS SPIRIT to seal us until the day of redemption.

THANK YOU JESUS

[godrulz]

One does not have to assume predestination, determinism, decretal theology to explain God's providential hand on our lives (re: above anecdotes). God's will, purposes, intentions can also be rejected (Lk. 7:30; Matthew 23:37).

[Guest man]

Then why would Christ tell us differently?

Revelation 3:5

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

It seems to me that those who do not overcome will be removed, meaning that they were in the Book of Life at one point.

This passage doesn't say that JESUS will blot anyone out of the book of life. It is a promise that those who overcome will not be blotted out of the book of life. You have to reverse engineer it to say that it implies that there are those who will not persevere and will be blotted out. In this case, you can not do that.

What it's actually saying is that those who do not endure to the end or perservere will be blotted out.

Believe whatever you want, but that's what it says.

No it does not. What it says is that those who persevere to the end will not be blotted out. Read it. That is what it says.

What it says to you...

Ok, well let me ask you a question.

What will happen to those who do not perservere?

There's only one logical answer.

Yes, that answer is that their name is not written in the book of life.

That seems to be the "pat answer" whenever this topic rolls around.

"They were never saved to begin with".

JESUS is making an incrdible promise to those of this church who make it to the end. HE is telling them that even if HE rejects the entire church as a whole, HE will not reject those who persevere to the end. HIS specific promise to them is that HE will not blot their name out of the book of life for they are the saved of GOD. This is the promise of assurance to a group of people who are surrounded by those who are not the saved and who have no place in the book of life that even though they are amoungst those who may be rejected, they will not be rejected.

See what you said there? "The entire church".

Now I have to ask, how many people in the "entire church" are working under the assumption that they are saved? I'm gonna take a wild guess and say all of them. Otherwise, what's the point..........right? So if they all believe they are saved but in the end are rejected, what does that do for your argument? That kinda throws your belief right out the window.

Now I have another question for you. How does one know for sure, beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are one of the "chosen"? Is it because they read it in the bible? Well guess what? The "entire church" read it too, but you're saying that it's possible that they will all be rejected. How does that work?

It is a great promise to HIS steadfast and loyal. It is not a warning that if they do not persevere, they will be blotted out for the book of life has been sealed since the day the foundation of the earth was laid until the Lamb opens it on judgement day.

Then how do you explain this?

Exodus 32

33 And the LORD said to Moses,