Daniel 11 and the End Trib Rapture

[nikki1]

Blessings Wolfbitn:

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt

Thank you for sharing these scriptures. I am convinced that the Lord will take his saints, also known as the elect out of the world after the tribulation of those days, just as he says in Matthew 24:29-31, however

I have a question for you, tho, with reference to the above scriptures you quote.

How do you know that at the time that Michael stands up it is "after the tribulation of those days"?

The scripture you quote in No. 1 above corrolates with what Jesus said in Matthew 24:21 For there shall be great tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be; which does not indicate the time during the great tribulation it is. I am of the opinion that the great tribulation is just beginning from this scripture, and mid week of Daniel's 70th week, and not at its end, because of the preceeding verses in which Jesus warns vs.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17. Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house;

18. Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20. But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21. For there shall be great tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be; which does not indicate the time during the great tribulation it is

Nikki

Edited August 20, 2009 by nikki1

[Massorite]

Actually i thought i had showed how these all worked together... but im willing to go a step and a scripture at a time... so to begin this, id just like to have rufas or whoever tell me what they see in this passage, especially the bolded parts

Rufus

Lets start all over between ourselves. I have nothing agianst you and im sure you feel the same

I am posting a portion of Daniel. Tell me how you read the bolded... what do YOU see in this?

We can toss it back and forth and take them 1 and 2 and 3 at a time so we dont confuse this any more than it has to be.

Daniel 12

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Agreed. These verses do speak of the resurrection and it is interesting that some who will awaken and rise out of the grave during the ressurection will be going to "shame and everlasting contempt". So much for "once saved always saved".

Amen Massorite.

Now lets put Daniel 12 with Matthew 24

21For then there will be great tribulation (affliction, distress, and oppression) such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now--no, and never will be [again].

22And if those days had not been shortened, no human being would endure and survive, but for the sake of the elect (God's chosen ones) those days will be shortened.

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not shed its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn and beat their breasts and lament in anguish, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [in brilliancy and splendor].

31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect (His chosen ones) from the four winds, [even] from one end of the universe to the other.

So we see that in both cases this is the time of trouble like tagainsthe world has never seen.. and we are gathered at the signal of the trumpet... which neccessarily HAS to be the LAST trumpet.

1 Cor 15

51Take notice! I tell you a mystery (a secret truth, an event decreed by the hidden purpose or counsel of God). We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed (transformed)

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the [sound of the] last trumpet call. For a trumpet will sound, and the dead [in Christ] will be raised I'mperishable (resurrectionfree and immune from decay), and we shall bnecessarilye changed (transformed).

and this is AT HIS COMING

22For just as [because of their [c]union of nature] in Adam all people die, so also [by virtue of their [d]union of nature] shall all in Christ be made alive.

23But each in his own rank and turn: Christ (the Messiah) [is] the firstfruits, then those who are Christ's [own will be resurrected] at His coming.

So so far this ties in Dan 12, Mt 24, and 1 Cor 15:19-21 and 50-52

4 passages

Agreed again Wolf. You have pointed out that the word "tribulation" means among other things "affliction" and this proves that the words tribulation and wrath are not one in the same words because the word wrath means "punishment" and we are not appointed to suffer the punishment of God. But we can at the will of God suffer great tribulation just as the early church did or the more then 250,000 of our brothers and sisters suffered and died in last year and are suffering as we speak.

Folks that believe that God wouldn't allow us to suffer things like having acid thrown into our faces or being tortured and having our heads cut off or being thrown in jail and beaten on a daily bases in the name of Jesus are decieving themselves because it is happening every single day around the world.

All one needs to do is go to the Voice of the Martyrs web site and see for them selves.

[WolfBitn]

Agreed again Wolf. You have pointed out that the word "tribulation" means among other things "affliction" and this proves that the words tribulation and wrath are not one in the same words because the word wrath means "punishment" and we are not appointed to suffer the punishment of God. But we can at the will of God suffer great tribulation just as the early church did or the more then 250,000 of our brothers and sisters suffered and died in last year and are suffering as we speak.

Folks that believe that God wouldn't allow us to suffer things like having acid thrown into our faces or being tortured and having our heads cut off or being thrown in jail and beaten on a daily bases in the name of Jesus are decieving themselves because it is happening every single day around the world.

All one needs to do is go to the Voice of the Martyrs web site and see for them selves.

Amen Massorite, Not only do these abuses occur daily, if we remember it is also how our church was began... under great persecution first from the Jews and then the Romans.

Gods children have always been subject to Gods discipline, but never His wrath. Many times through history of the Hebrews we see where they apostacized and God disciplined them with persecution. Persecution has many times been the remedy for apostacy. It drives out the hypocrites and humbles the true child of God.

Not only this, but put another way, His children have never been the subject of GOD's wrath, but we have always been subject to the wrath of man... and even then a remnant is always miraculously protected and endures.

[Massorite]

Agreed again Wolf. You have pointed out that the word "tribulation" means among other things "affliction" and this proves that the words tribulation and wrath are not one in the same words because the word wrath means "punishment" and we are not appointed to suffer the punishment of God. But we can at the will of God suffer great tribulation just as the early church did or the more then 250,000 of our brothers and sisters suffered and died in last year and are suffering as we speak.

Folks that believe that God wouldn't allow us to suffer things like having acid thrown into our faces or being tortured and having our heads cut off or being thrown in jail and beaten on a daily bases in the name of Jesus are decieving themselves because it is happening every single day around the world.

All one needs to do is go to the Voice of the Martyrs web site and see for them selves.

Amen Massoritedeceiving, Not only do these abuses occur daily, if we remember it is also how our church was began... under great persecution first from the Jews and then the Romans.

Gods children have always been subject to Gods discipline, but never His wrath. Many times through history of the Hebrews we see where they apostatized and God disciplined them with persecution. Persecution has many times been the remedy for apostasy. It drives out the hypocrites and humbles the true child of God.

Not only this, but put another way, His children have never been the subject of GOD's wrath, but we have always been subject to the wrath of man... and even then a remnant is always miraculously protected and endures.

Wonderful point Wolf. If you were to do the research on the hidden manna in Rev. 2:17. You will find that it is not talking about some kind of spiritual bread from heaven. It is talking about the same kind of manna that was feed to the Israelites while thet were in the desert. The word "hidden" is speaking of that which is "hidden from our sight" or that which is "unnoticed". What will happen to us when we refuse the mark of the beast? We will not be able to buy any more food from men just to mention one essential. Now look up what happened to the old testament manna and you will find that the bible simply stops speaking of it as being in the ark of the covenant and does not say where it is. It just disappears from the ark.

I know it sounds nutty but I believe that this manna is 'hidden from our sight" right now but we as the people of God will again see and be fed once again the same life sustaining bread from heaven that the Israelites were fed when they too were not able to depend on the things of man while we are enduring/overcoming to the end.

[WolfBitn]

If you really want to take Daniel literally, then you have to understand who the prophecies given to Daniel are for. We are told so specifically in Daniel 9:24:

Daniel 9:24 "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.

These prophecies apply to Israel and the Jews, no one else. They do not apply to the church. The church was a mystery not known until Paul revealed it, which the Bible plainly states. That's why so many people have problems with escatology, because they automatically assume that all prophecy is meant for the church. It isn't. The church and Israel are dealt with seperately.

The "last trump" is not the 7th trumpet. They are not the same thing, and no where does the Bible say they are the same trumpet. You and Massorite seem to believe that the church going through the tribulation is somehow ok. It's God's judgement on an unbelieving world, and as such, the church is promised that they will not suffer God's wrath.

2 things

1) in case you didnt know it Daniel was written for the entire world just as the rest of scripture is, and the prophecies concern the entire world.

2) "Last" doesnt mean "next to last", it means "Last".

And let me ask why you tie Gods hands and say the only way He can spare us from His wrath is by rapturing us? This has never ever been the case... Look at Israel just before the Exodus... in egypt with His wrath falling all around them, yet not touching them, but on the flip side, pharoah increased their burden

I would recommend finding a single passage saying you are raptured pre trib, stating it outright, or simply believing the ones that do state outright we are raised up at the last day, at the last trump.

Wonderful point Wolf. If you were to do the research on the hidden manna in Rev. 2:17. You will find that it is not talking about some kind of spiritual bread from heaven. It is talking about the same kind of manna that was feed to the Israelites while thet were in the desert. The word "hidden" is speaking of that which is "hidden from our sight" or that which is "unnoticed". What will happen to us when we refuse the mark of the beast? We will not be able to buy any more food from men just to mention one essential. Now look up what happened to the old testament manna and you will find that the bible simply stops speaking of it as being in the ark of the covenant and does not say where it is. It just disappears from the ark.

I know it sounds nutty but I believe that this manna is 'hidden from our sight" right now but we as the people of God will again see and be fed once again the same life sustaining bread from heaven that the Israelites were fed when they too were not able to depend on the things of man while we are enduring/overcoming to the end.

Actually Massorite i dont think that sounds nutty at all. Why wouldnt God protect and feed His children in the same way? I love the studies from the old to the new. So many people try to seperate them as if one WAS Gods word and its passed, and now we have a NEW God's word and this robs them of so much more deeper knowledge. I submit its ALL Gods word and not one jot has ever passed from it.

We surely wont be able to depend on anything but death from mankind, thats an excellent point.

In that day we need faith.

As for the hidden manna, why should God reveal that which isnt needed yet? Hes not a showoff at all lol.. I agree with you its hidden until that day and i dont doubt one bit many will eat of it because we are His.

[Guest man]

It's God's judgement on an unbelieving world, and as such, the church is promised that they will not suffer God's wrath.

And the true believers will not taste that wrath during the tribulation. They may taste the wrath of satan, but not of God.

Your statement is true, God's judgement will fall upon the unbelieving world. A sad fact is that a part of that unbelieving world is located within the walls of the church.

[Massorite]

If you really want to take Daniel literally, then you have to understand who the prophecies given to Daniel are for. We are told so specifically in Daniel 9:24:

Daniel 9:24 "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.

These prophecies apply to Israel and the Jews, no one else. They do not apply to the church. The church was a mystery not known until Paul revealed it, which the Bible plainly states. That's why so many people have problems with escatology, because they automatically assume that all prophecy is meant for the church. It isn't. The church and Israel are dealt with seperately.

The "last trump" is not the 7th trumpet. They are not the same thing, and no where does the Bible say they are the same trumpet. You and Massorite seem to believe that the church going through the tribulation is somehow ok. It's God's judgement on an unbelieving world, and as such, the church is promised that they will not suffer God's wrath.

2 things

1) in case you didnt know it Daniel was written for the entire world just as the rest of scripture is, and the prophecies concern the entire world.

2) "Last" doesnt mean "next to last", it means "Last".

And let me ask why you tie Gods hands and say the only way He can spare us from His wrath is by rapturing us? This has never ever been the case... Look at Israel just before the Exodus... in egypt with His wrath falling all around them, yet not touching them, but on the flip side, pharoah increased their burden

I would recommend finding a single passage saying you are raptured pre trib, stating it outright, or simply believing the ones that do state outright we are raised up at the last day, at the last trump.

Wonderful point Wolf. If you were to do the research on the hidden manna in Rev. 2:17. You will find that it is not talking about some kind of spiritual bread from heaven. It is talking about the same kind of manna that was feed to the Israelites while thet were in the desert. The word "hidden" is speaking of that which is "hidden from our sight" or that which is "unnoticed". What will happen to us when we refuse the mark of the beast? We will not be able to buy any more food from men just to mention one essential. Now look up what happened to the old testament manna and you will find that the bible simply stops speaking of it as being in the ark of the covenant and does not say where it is. It just disappears from the ark.

I know it sounds nutty but I believe that this manna is 'hidden from our sight" right now but we as the people of God will again see and be fed once again the same life sustaining bread from heaven that the Israelites were fed when they too were not able to depend on the things of man while we are enduring/overcoming to the end.

Actually Massorite i dont think that sounds nutty at all. Why wouldnt God protect and feed His children in the same way? I love the studies from the old to the new. So many people try to seperate them as if one WAS Gods word and its passed, and now we have a NEW God's word and this robs them of so much more deeper knowledge. I submit its ALL Gods word and not one jot has ever passed from it.

We surely wont be able to depend on anything but death from mankind, thats an excellent point.

In that day we need faith.

As for the hidden manna, why should God reveal that which isnt needed yet? Hes not a showoff at all lol.. I agree with you its hidden until that day and i dont doubt one bit many will eat of it because we are His.

Well thank you for the vote of confidence Cobalt. God will always give us what we need.

[Guest kaoticprofit]

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Edited September 13, 2009 by kaoticprofit

[Massorite]

2 things

1) in case you didnt know it Daniel was written for the entire world just as the rest of scripture is, and the prophecies concern the entire world.

2) "Last" doesnt mean "next to last", it means "Last".

And let me ask why you tie Gods hands and say the only way He can spare us from His wrath is by rapturing us? This has never ever been the case... Look at Israel just before the Exodus... in egypt with His wrath falling all around them, yet not touching them, but on the flip side, pharoah increased their burden

I would recommend finding a single passage saying you are raptured pre trib, stating it outright, or simply believing the ones that do state outright we are raised up at the last day, at the last trump.

Daniel was written so that all the children of God at all times after the prophecy was given would know what would happen at the end times. But, as I have already pointed out, the prophecies given to Daniel were for and to Isreal and the Jewish people, and there is no way that you can interpret them any other way. It states very clearly: "your people" (the Jews) and "your holy city" (Jerusalem). These prophecies are not for the church and could not be for the church since the church was an unknown concept at the time that none of the prophets knew about.

Romans 16:25-26 25 Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him--

Ephesians 3:2-6 2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God's grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

As I said, if you are going to take the Bible literally, please do so. Not ever prophecy in the Bible is meant for the church or is about the church.

As for tying God's hands, exactly how am I doing that? I believe that scripture inplicitly teaches a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. You are free to disagree, and I will not demean you for that belief, but neither will I be demeaned by you for mine.

Please display for me a scripture that says the "last trump" is the same as the 7th trumpet in Revelation. You know about the scriptures used to teach a pre-trib rapture as well as I do. You won't get anywhere that way.

Good point Cobalt. Though there is no scriptural proof I have heard that the seventh trump actually sounds first. The only reason I would even think about going down that road is because the first thru the fifth trumps sound like the wrath of God. The sixth trump speaks of the battle of Armageddon which means that if the seventh trump sounds last after the battle then Jesus doesn't return to recieve us or resurrect us until after the seven years are complete.

As much As I have studied and researched I have never been able to make any sense out of the seventh trump prophecy.

[Massorite]

Actually i thought i had showed how these all worked together... but im willing to go a step and a scripture at a time... so to begin this, id just like to have rufas or whoever tell me what they see in this passage, especially the bolded parts

Rufus

Lets start all over between ourselves. I have nothing agianst you and im sure you feel the same

I am posting a portion of Daniel. Tell me how you read the bolded... what do YOU see in this?

We can toss it back and forth and take them 1 and 2 and 3 at a time so we dont confuse this any more than it has to be.

Daniel 12

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Agreed. These verses do speak of the resurrection and it is interesting that some who will awaken and rise out of the grave during the ressurection will be going to "shame and everlasting contempt". So much for "once saved always saved".

Which resurrection? There are several recorded in the gospels alone.

There is only one resurrection we are talking about and there is only one resurrection that has yet to take place the next time Jesus comes.