Guest Ken Rank Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 Oak, thank you for your words. Those true son's of God (and daughters) can have a disagreement and not turn it into strife. You (and Eric, so this is addressed to him as well) do not agree with me, which I am perfectly fine with, but neither has "gone on the attack" which we see on so many other sites. There is no God in that... no Spirit. Discussing clean and unclean in reality is fruitless, the core of our difference is how we view the entire Torah. Is it dead and gone, or is it applicable to today? Even then, it won't be a discussion about scripture (verses) as much as our paradigm... the perspective we perceive scripture through as we read. I was a Baptist for some years, dabbled in a Pentecostal church for a couple of years... I literally studied every single denomination I could after that. In the end I was confronted with the same issue, there is much tradition within the church which stands in contrast to scripture. Let me give you a couple of no brainer examples, but they are still good examples and where I started from. While I have >>NO<< problem with the name Jesus, and I am SURE if you call on that name with a pure heart he will hear you, the letter J is 500 years old and there is no J in Aramaic or Hebrew. How can Messiah's name have been Jesus? Where did the idea of steeples come from? Where does December 25th come from? Where does communion every week come from? Why replace God's name with LORD when it appears in the manuscripts 6800+ times? (I have no problem either with the use of Lord... Moses called God "Adonai YHWH"... or Lord YHWH...seen in our bibles as Lord LORD). Then some of the bigger items... if God says his Torah is everlasting, how did it get nailed to the cross? If Sabbath is the 7th day and called perpetual, who moved it to the 1st day and changed the meaning of it? These are just a few examples. I struggled with these things remaining constantly in prayer for a couple of years. And I must admit, the more I learn (I am far from perfect in what I believe) the more I realize how little I know! But what changed for me was one realization.... the writers of the Bible were Hebrew. They wrote in Hebrew (predominately), they lived in a Hebraic culture, they thought like a Hebrew would think.... they used Hebrew idioms and phraseology. When I came to that understanding and began to apply this new paradigm to scripture, I began to understand more clearly. (Again, I have a ton to learn like anyone else and my mind is always open) Idioms I used to pass over I now recognize, quotes from the OT I now know to go back to and read that whole chapter for context so I can apply it to what I am reading in the NT. No longer do I rely on my Greek influenced Western mind and English bible, I actually study in ways I haven't before and have been blessed greatly for it. Now I understand there are many in Hebrew Roots that are as judgemental and closed minded as many denominal folks. That's too bad! I kid you not, that depresses me when I see it and I try to defend the one being attacked EVEN WHEN I don't agree with him. It's a heart thing... NO MAN will have every answer until we are changed and perfected. Until then we are to reason together and work through this unto our edification. If what I have said makes sense and there is no dispute, I would be happy to share some perspectives I have gained in the last 10 years while taking the time to hear what you have to say and weigh that in as well. If you are looking for a peeing match... well, I simply don't have the time (or desire) for that. I run my own site as well, so my time here is limited as it is. I do look forward to hearing from you and pray I have found new friends, and not adversaries! Peace. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oak Posted September 30, 2009 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 503 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 31 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/14/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted September 30, 2009 (edited) Dear Ken, I would love to be your friend, just know I Edited September 30, 2009 by oak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mizzdy Posted September 30, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 173 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,911 Content Per Day: 0.67 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 10 Joined: 03/21/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted September 30, 2009 a) In the Old Testament God is in enmity with man; in the New Testament man and God are reconciled through Jesus Christ. Analyze both books from this perspective. I don't see God being enmity with man but man with God. God said that He would put enmity between the two seeds, the true word of God and the word of man or satans word which is what we see running rampant in this world. e) Lastly, think of the OT as the law which makes man perish; the NT as the spirit which makes man truly alive. The basis of Romans.... The law is God's instructions to us not to keep us apart from Him. True that no law can save anyone ever! and through the Spirit we are able to follow it. I think so many see Gods instructions as a burden, some Jewish something which it is not, there wasn't any group called Jews way back when God gave the torah to His people who were the mixed mulitude that came from Egypt that then became the Israelites. Man perishes without the His instructions and we are told over and over again the law (torah) is the light, truth, lamp, sum of words, righteous, a joy and everlasting just to name a few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest yod Posted September 30, 2009 Share Posted September 30, 2009 a) In the Old Testament God is in enmity with man; in the New Testament man and God are reconciled through Jesus Christ. Analyze both books from this perspective. not necessarily. They were also saved by grace through faith before there was a New Testament. The biggest difference was that God had created a people for Himself (Israel) to bring the Messiah. d) This say's it all to me about food even as a symbol of, "(scarcity of food) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ken Rank Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Dear Ken, I would love to be your friend, just know I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 .... not necessarily. They were also saved by grace through faith before there was a New Testament. The biggest difference was that God had created a people for Himself (Israel) to bring the Messiah .... Amen! And Fruit Was Still Fruit "Pleasant fruits, new and old, which I have laid up for thee, O my beloved." Song of Solomon 7:13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oak Posted October 1, 2009 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 503 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 31 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/14/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted October 1, 2009 (edited) Since the computer is not allowing me to post due to many quotes i did the following: Old replies Bold=Oak Italics=Yod New reply by me=plain Yod I think your confusing Ken with me (Oak). However I will addresss some of your comments that you were kind enough to write. a) In the Old Testament God is in enmity with man; in the New Testament man and God are reconciled through Jesus Christ. Analyze both books from this perspective[ not necessarily. They were also saved by grace through faith before there was a New Testament. The biggest difference was that God had created a people for Himself (Israel) to bring the Messiah. I'll agree with you but I think the "biggest" difference" is in the New Testament and was Christ's sacrifice and ressurection and bringing the Holy Spirit into this world in full power. d) This say's it all to me about food even as a symbol of, "(scarcity of food) Edited October 2, 2009 by oak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oak Posted October 1, 2009 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 503 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 31 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/14/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted October 1, 2009 (edited) Mizdy, e) Lastly, think of the OT as the law which makes man perish; the NT as the spirit which makes man truly alive. The basis of Romans.... The law is God's instructions to us not to keep us apart from Him. True that no law can save anyone ever! and through the Spirit we are able to follow it. I think so many see Gods instructions as a burden, some Jewish something which it is not, there wasn't any group called Jews way back when God gave the torah to His people who were the mixed mulitude that came from Egypt that then became the Israelites. Man perishes without the His instructions and we are told over and over again the law (torah) is the light, truth, lamp, sum of words, righteous, a joy and everlasting just to name a few. I agree on this but look ar my post to yod (Romans 7:5 / post 17 / under letter i) Oak Edited October 1, 2009 by oak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ken Rank Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 Yod wrote: In my opinion, the term "hebrew-roots" has become a red flag that makes me tread cautiously. It's usually a gentile trying to teach what it means or meant to be jewish. Too often they get carried away with making theology out of metaphors, doctrines out of shadows. The term "Messianic" was a term that was only applied to Jews who believe in Yehoshua. Hebrew Roots came along more recently to describe Christians who seek the origins of the faith, the more Hebrew rooted aspects of the Christian faith. You (anyone) can call me either, but I am not a Jew (Judah) but I do believe I am grafted into Israel by faith. I do not seek to be Jewish, I do not eat Kosher, I do not hold to 39 categories and 4000 laws pertaining to Sabbath, when only 7 Sabbath commands exist in scripture. I care not able labels, just God. All I want is to walk in His truth as best I can through Messiah. And the "Yahshuah" error still drives me %$#%#$% nuts! If we can agree on Y'shua (or Yeshua) instead, then things will go much better between us. Not sure what you are even talking about. I am answering this post because it had my name in it, but like Oak, I believe you were speaking to somebody else. As for the name, chill out! The proper Hebrew way to write his name is Yehoshua, Yeshua is the short form in Hebrew and the long form in Aramaic. But ya' know what? It makes NO difference. Are you saying that if somebody uses "Jesus" with a pure heart, Elohim will not hear him? Nonsense! Besides, what I have found within the Sacred Name sect of Hebrew Roots is ignorance. I am sorry... not trying to be hard, and I don't even know what you believe so don't take this personal. But the Hebrew word "shem," from which we get the English word "name," means MUCH more than what our English word "name" can give us. Instead of giving you my version, please read this from the preface of the ISR's "The Scriptures." The Hebrew word is shem, means much more than Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oak Posted October 1, 2009 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 503 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 31 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/14/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted October 1, 2009 So let me ask you, do you believe Torah, God's Law/Instruction, is void in today's world? Was it done away with by Yehoshua? If so, why? Peace. Ken Very, very, tough question.... But before I answer, a very sharp answer from you about the 12 commandments because in my mind Christ's commandment about God = 1-4 of the 10 commandments Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts